From reading the Forum in the last 3 month (Newbie), I know there are several members that can give me advice in this question.
Background:
Since a friend of mine bought an approximately 10 year old CC Allure, and came to visit us on the farm with it several years ago, I suffered from a bad case of RV Coach envy.
I certainly did not need one, but I wanted to have one, and thankfully, I could afford it and my wife indulged me.
So I studied the market, set myself a budget under $ 100K, and looked at many coaches for a year.
It was very clear to me looking in the maximum 20 year old category, only formerly high end coaches were under consideration.
So I concentrated my search on the top models of CC, Monaco and Foretravel, deciding that Newell and Prevo are out of my range.
After a year I bought a 2003 U320, after a similar old Monaco Signature turned out to have all sorts of unresolved problems.
I am quite happy with it.
Challenge:
Another friend of mine, dealing in and piloting private charter jet planes for a living, (like Falcon 50), now has decided that he and his wife want to try the full time coach living. I mention his profession to show that he is familiar with complex, technical systems. Because he lives in a world of people for whom money is not a concern (owners of private jets), he asked me for advice what he should purchase.
(For the record, I am not a member of this group of people and neither is he)
He was first looking at Prevos, but quickly realized that if you want to but something in the 10+ year old range, you have to spend serous money.
My advice to him:
I paraphrased a post I read from Wolfe10 (I think), "think carefully through of what you really want." Until you are sure that this is the lifestyle you both want and enjoy, be conservative with your decisions and your money.
Present situation:
He took my advice, and called me today to tell me that he has been offered a 11 year old Monaco Executive with a 600 Hp engine for about $ 200K, and what is my opinion?
He is now looking in the segment of in the range of to $ 200K, and at what should he looking for at Foretravel?
I told him the senior's in my forum know that answer.
Question to the Forum:
I never looked at that market segment, and I do not know anything beyond the early 2000's FT models. What are the FT models that are today about 10 years old.
Are there specific ones one should look out for or avoid?
What are the general advantages of FT over similar CC or Monaco models?
Regards
Klaus
#1 Monaco is long out of business. Country Coach is long out of business. Foretravel is still in business. Parts, support, etc.
#2 11 year old 600 hp means an ISX. A red eggshell engine. Well known for catastrophic valve failure where rebuild costs are upwards of $30K. Cummins ISX broken valve in #6 - iRV2 Forums (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/cummins-isx-broken-valve-in-6-a-401436.html) We would personally never, ever buy a coach with that engine. (it also affects the 500 and 650 hp ISX models, the 650 even worse than the 600). That's going to be a tough one at the 10-ish year mark. If someone wants a big coach, it's pretty much going to have that. Otherwise, it's an ISL and a smaller coach/lower HP model.
#3 the people on this forum (well, actually, that should be is #1)
The first thing is this Forum. There is so much knowledge on this forum, with members willing to help.
I had a 98 Monaco Dynasty and the 12 volt wiring in it was a nightmare always something going wrong.
Both coaches handled well but the Foretavel seems smoother. The foretravel is a lot easier to work on, a lot
more room around the engine. The Dynasty front windshield is a lot higher than the Foretravel which is a lot
higher than needed and is a huge heat sink in the summer.
Ms Michelle,
That what I was asking for,
Valuable input from people who are technically sound.
Regards
Klaus
Could be that engine is a 500 hp Detroit diesel Series 60?
Klaus, I was parked at Xtreme some years ago and James Stallings asked me to come to the rear of my coach. He said put your fingers to check the thickness of my open rear cap vs the Monaco Signature parked next to mine. The Foretravel rear cap felt twice a thick as the Monaco.
Much bigger opening in rear to the engine was another thing I liked a lot.
My 2006 is a 36 ft Nimbus. I think it has a 400 ISL engine. That is the first I heard about the ISX engines having a major problem. I assume these problems show up at very high mileage.
My motorhome only has 36K miles on it. That low mileage is worrisome to me. It was well taken care of and stored in a enclosed shop which is a plus. It appears to have been serviced regularly. Any problems with the ISL engines I should know about?
ISL is a good motor.
You can not go on any RV forum without finding issues with dropped valves on the ISX engine.
A very widely known issue.
Not in a 10 year old Monaco Executive. It's 600 hp per Klaus' friend. A quick search shows that would be the ISX, and more likely the 650 as well.
Monaco used the 500 hp DD in the early 2000's.
Yup, and absolutely no assistance from Cummins on the rebuild (which still doesn't fully fix the problem).
Our previous coach was a 1998 monaco windsor. We had lots of fun in thst coach. I replaced the suspension bushings that rotted out prematurely - big job, but not technical. Our windshields kept shifting sround and making air gaps. I replaced the "vinyl" top that was an ugly mess. I filled the cracks in the cabinetry. Much other work not related to manufacturer. No wiring issues! Friend's Monaco of similar vintage has delamination issues.
We now have the 1998 FT. I know we are facing some repairs and upgrades, but the quality difference is amazing. Much better ride, fiberglass top, and the retarder!
Somehow, the Monaco seemed like something that would wear away. Thr FT seems permanent.
In replying to Michelle's post, Californians and Easterners are usually like the Excedrin ad, two rams locking horns but I have to agree with her 100 percent in this case. An engine design not quite up to the demands of high output and valves not manufactured to the high standards required in an engine with high EGTs.
In the example she quotes, the engine failed not just once but twice in not that many miles and with a $30K plus price tag, that's 150 percent more than our coach cost. Now, for some people, $30K is not that big of a deal but for others, it's huge. With the increased cost of shop labor today, the "good deal" of $30K may be a thing of the past especially if the manufacturer does not step up to the plate. RVs engines are tough to R&R and most manufactures seem to be locked into the present design.
The Monaco with the 500hp series 60 Detroit was a big improvement reliability wise and anyone considering a new or late high end RV should consider a DD13 (improved series 60) coupled to a DT12 auto/manual trans. The best cost a little more but may be less expensive in $$ and headaches down the road.
Pierce
I'd just like to point out that once you get into the era of the Foretravel Grand Villas, Foretravel styling is timeless and no one need know the age of your coach as long as all is kept spotless. Comfort systems can be upgraded with smaller and lighter units, and the Foretravel Unihome and Unicoach chassis are in a class by themselves.
I have owned both a 400 ISL and now 500ISX. Both are great engines and our Fire Department runs Cummins ISX and rarely if ever have problems. We have well over 500 fire trucks/engines in our fleet. But, they get used everyday and ran hard - which is good. Yes, there are many stories about the valve issue etc. but that has not deterred me because those engines have many many millions of miles on the road without much issue.
I bought my 2013 Nimbus with ISX500 from Pete Spahn (Forum member) and it has been an excellent coach with no issues. I too looked at CC, Prevost, Monaco etc and settled on Foretravel and have owned two now. I would not purchase a Monaco or CC knowing what a Foretravel can offer. If I were to look at another in would be a Newell - but still not my first choice.
Just my opinion
Pat
There was a recall on the Cummins ISL engines built from Oct.05 to Apr.06 for a wrist pin issue. Their engines could have premature connecting rod failure. Cummins installed a new valve cover with a crankcase pressure sensor that signals the Stop Engine light if the pressure is excessive.
Serial number range is 46543077 to 46603939.
Mine was outside that range and I never had an issue with my 400ISL.
Comparing fire dept operations to RVs is like comparing apples to oranges. One one hand, you have fire engineers, highly trained in all aspects of diesel engine operation and then on the other hand, RV owners who only had to write a check to start driving their diesel coaches.
While it's true that a fire truck gets punished on cold starts to full throttle and RPM in just seconds, it rarely sees the high EGTs that do the long term damage. Even pumping to and extended booster at 400 psi, the actual load on the engine is small and even when pushed harder for supplying sprinkler systems, pumping a distance to another apparatus or even using the deck gun, the high engine loading is almost always of very short duration. Plus, the fire truck gets pampered with a service day once a week where everything is inspected from the engine to the tire pressures. Oil never goes past 1000 miles without a change and the emission maintenance requirements are not overlooked. .
The typical diesel RV owner climbs in his or her new coach and armed only with second hand diesel tales, drives off into the sunset. They think it's OK to idle the engine for extended periods, even though all diesel engine manufactures discourage this practice and many counties prohibit it by law. They don't turn off their engines while fueling because "they might not start" when they have finished fueling.
But, this is not the worst. They head upgrade on a hot day at high altitude in the same gear they used on the flat and depend on the Allison to choose the right gear for them. After all, diesels are at their best when "lugged," right? So, the water pump and radiator fan can't really do the job they were designed to do. Then the EGTs start to go up and with high altitude, even higher. Then, with a nice hot engine, they stop at the top of the grade and shut the engine off to take photos or eat without a thought to turbo heat sink. All of these operation shortfalls are cumulative so may not show up for thousands of miles.
After reading several horror stories on RV forums and listening to an owner at Quartzite who had to replace his engine when he lost one cylinder, the pieces are not that hard to connect. While working at the hanger, the owner's cousin just happened to stop in. He has been a diesel engine mechanic at a large shop in the Phoenix. During our conversation, he was talking about the diesel failures they see at the shop. Without asking, he said it was usually number 6 cylinder on Cummins. And the bill for almost anything where the engine has to be removed on an RV is around $30K. Even if the damage is fairly light, the cost of R&R and the labor to replace the parts usually totals more than a remanufactured engine costs.
So, comparing a mid engine fire truck with an efficient cooling system and a highly trained operator to the average diesel RV owner, you can see the disadvantage the RV engine starts with. With any used coach, the records of the maintenance with the emissions system an important part of that.
Pierce
If you follow that thread, and I believe there are several others in that Cummins board as well, there are actually a number of different coaches/owners in that thread who have had the failure. It's not confined to a single coach manufacturer, either, so it's not like one skimped out on the cooling package they designed and installed.
We got to see a Foretravel that had the failure during the initial phase of repair when the parts were being removed for rebuild. Most things, including very large, very heavy, very oily bits, had to go out the front door after being carried through the interior of the coach.
What other brand can you return to the 'factory' and have the coach serviced or repaired? And have the parts in stock? That adds a lot of peace of mind for me.
Larry
Add me to the list. Unless for resale I would never purchase!
The Executive is a large coach. I also have zero interest in them. Seems the people on this forum have a generally helping addiction for our good old coaches. Endless spot on interest and a genuine appreciation to the preservation of our coaches. I personally couldn't imagine a 2005 U320 not being enough coach, but that is my opinion. But the ISX is a deal breaker for me. Too much liability being self insured. 30k may not be much in regards to a 200k coach to worry about. Too much for me. Just talking about it makes me nervous. He may be willing to overlook 30k as I overlook 3k for a engine. This would have to be his choice.
Scott
In my planned upcoming essay about the experience of being a first time buyer of a FT coach at an advanced age , (and this essay may never see the light of day, if something goes wrong this winter in our family or on the farm) there will be a chapter on "utility theory of gains and losses" on investing in a coach.
Utility theory or sometimes called "loss aversion theory" explains how people make decisions facing uncertainty.
As I can not contribute anything to fellow members any advice for fixing specific technical problems, these musings are my contribution.
I have told my friend " from what I have learned from the Forum, avoid the ISX engine"
Regards
Klaus
I would be cautious about making a blanket statement that someone should avoid the ISX. Depending on what size and year coach, emissions etc. it maybe the only option in the Cummins power train family. The largest Cummins engine used in motorhomes is called an ISX, They have ISB, ISC, ISL ISM and ISX. They follow a convention that the higher the last letter of the engine model name is in the alphabet, the larger the engine. Yes, the ISX is pricey to repair If you have a catastrophic failure. Most Foretravel's built after 2010 have the ISX.
Great discussion.
Pat
I have told my friend " from what I have learned from the Forum, avoid the ISX engine"
Regards
Klaus
[/quote]
Valid point, Mr Pat.
For a blanket statement, I certainly have insufficient knowledge.
But, for telling my friend of what I have learned from the forum, I am on safe grounds.
Regards
Klaus
If the owner had the ISX engine rebuilt, then there is nothing wrong with the engine. Not all the ISX have thrown the number Six piston. Some have performed correctly. This is a case of checking the documentation logs on the coach. Having the engine checked for wear. There are going to be some nice coaches showing up in the near future. The culprit was the egr filter.
Our 2012 has been smooth as silk,since we got her back.
Not necessarily true. It depends on what was done in the rebuild, what era parts, etc. If you'll note, "MrD" on iRV2 had his rebuilt and it failed again, exact same failure.
Cummins has gone through a couple of iterations of parts trying to "harden" the repair, but they don't address the fundamental issues with the ISX.
When a valve fails because of a manufacturing fault, it's not possible to check it for condition in any kind of inspection, only to replace all of them. Valves are two piece, the stem and the valve head. They are welded together and it's this process that may not be done correctly or a substandard/contaminated metal being used for the valve or welding material. The more horsepower you produce, the more heat you create. High EGTs are part of the problem with correct timing, valve clearance, choice of gears on grades, helping to prevent valve failure. I'm sure Brett remembers VW exhaust valve failures. Part of routine maintenance was replacing the valves after so many miles.
Cylinder head design is also a part of component life. The coolant passages around the exhaust valve must be designed so the coolant has an unimpeded path for circulation. The temperature you see on your gauge only reflects the temperature at the sensor, usually at the thermostat housing. The temperature at the exhaust valve area may be much hotter and with high EGT and high coolant temperatures, the coolant may vaporize in that localized area. As a result, the valve seat may distort and not allow full contact of the valve when it momentarily seats. Incorrect valve settings may also reduce the time the valve is on the seat. Hot exhaust valve areas also mean the heat dissipation from the valve stem to the valve guide is less than the design calls for. High enough temperatures may actually weld part of the valve or seat to each other. When this happens, the valve cannon fully seat and the valve head temp skyrockets.
So, no easy fix and even the cause is hard to pinpoint. That's why it's important to check valve clearance, timing, emission devices, operating procedures for keeping the EGTs within normal range. If there were a simple fix, Cummins would have done it long ago but since the percentage is fairly low, not much has been done. You would expect them to stand behind the failures and offer an extended warranty on these items.
When I was selling Mercedes in Germany, a higher than normal percentage of transmission failures in the S class cars occurred. All the owners got a letter from MB and every transmission in a batch of serial numbers was replaced at no charge. They didn't wait untll the car was stranded by the side of the road to help.
High performance valves may be read about here: high preformance exhaust valve - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=high+preformance+exhaust+valve)
Cummins does not manufacture the valves used in their engines. If I owned one, I would find out the company that makes their valves and choose another company to buy my replacement valves.
Low EGTs are one of the reason Detroit 2 cycles don't break valves. The 2 cycle EGTs are never high enough to cause failures. I won't post the dyno video again but you can find on YouTube the EGT readouts for Detroits putting out almost twice as much HP as the engines installed in our Foretravels with the EGTs remaining very low.
Pierce
Yes. michelle,
If you check my info, you will see that I have an isx 500. This engine was down for 18+ months and to the tune of 30 k out of pocket to get it done right not including what good sam allowed for one piston.. That included fighting with Cummins. I am very aware of Mr D's problems. Cummins did not own up to the problem, but they have sort of come around to try and assist in fixing it now. It is buyer beware, but it can be fixed if caught early. This is a good case of not building engines out of country, i.e. Mexico and Brazil.
If the rebuild is done right it works, but rebuilding one or two of the pistons just leads back to having it done again in about 20 k miles as in Mr.D's case x 3. The crappy filter that the engine was supplied with does not function correctly leading to back pressure on the number Six piston. We had to go to an aftermarket filter to rectify the problem. That was after trying the replacement filter that Cummins recommended. If the engine is rebuilt properly, then the ISX can do its job.
We were told to just fix the pistons, but that would not have worked ,now would it?
What-- failure of VW air cooled #3 exhaust valves (read that dropping of the head of the valve into the piston) ? In Texas??? In the summer???
Yes, helped pay my way through University of Texas fixing these things. Particularly the 1968 and 1969 models with both valve issues AND soft blocks that required line-boring and fitting of oversized main bearings.
My father must have helped your college fund. We sucked valves twice on a Karmann Ghia and twice on a VW Micro bus back in the '60's.
Richard
As I remember, the oil cooler was in the way of the air flow to the driver's side of the engine so VW made the distributor cap a couple of distributor degrees retarded for #3 cylinder.
Cooling and high horsepower was a big reason to go to liquid cooling on engines. About 28 degrees was it for Porsche, VW while the water cooled varieties could advance the timing to about 38 degrees. Big difference.
Fun fact: Aircooled aircraft engine's magnetos (usually the left one) other than the impulse coupler, are set at about 25 degrees all the time with no advance mechanism. The FADEC System – Impulse Coupling (https://www.flight-mechanic.com/the-fadec-system-impulse-coupling/)
Pierce
I got corrected. The retard was in the distributor cam, not the cap. Excellent!
Pierce
I am something of a mathematics nerd, so indulge me.
Quote from # 24 by Pierce
"When I was selling Mercedes in Germany, a higher than normal percentage of transmission failures in the S class cars occurred. All the owners got a letter from MB and every transmission in a batch of serial numbers was replaced at no charge. They didn't wait until the car was stranded by the side of the road to help. "
Sounds reasonable for a well repudiated company, but the key phrase is ".... a higher than normal percentages.."
I once lost an argument with General Electric Gas Turbine Division on that issue.
I was in the late 1980's Maintenance Manager in the then one of the largest natural gas field in the world owned by Mobil Oil in northern Sumatra, Indonesia. We had a fleet of over 30 GE Frame 5 two shaft gas turbines, running generators and centrifugal compressors, and did most of the refurbishing in our own shops.
Because I had an interest in failure analysis, we kept meticulous records on failure frequency and cause. From these I concluded that we suffered from an abnormally high percentage of power turbine blade failures.
Suspecting a reoccurring technical problem, I contacted GE. They shared with me their worldwide failure data on their Frame line gas turbines, and I had to conclude that our failure just showed a random anomaly and our sample size was far too low to make conclusions about the cause.
What is the connection to the Cummings ISX engine failures?
To make statistically valid statement about the expected failure rates of a piece of equipment is a very complex process.
But in real life, nobody forces you to make statistically valid statements, if you have alternatives, hearsay and gut feeling are OK as long as you state them as such.
So I told my friend, that I would personally stay away from the ISX engine if I had an alternative.
Regards
Klaus
PS 1:
In case anybody is interesting in the subject of failure analysis, I recommend Nassim Talibs book "Fooled by randomness"
Even more valid in these times of virus tests (false positive vs false negative tests) is the story in Leonard Mlodinows book (The Drunkards Walk), and how he was incorrectly diagnosed with an incurable disease.
PS 2:
If this interests you at all, google : " An infinite number of monkeys with typewriters"
Why Buy a Foretravel over the other brands...
Well ,Because they aren't Foretravels.
And you dont get this kind of internet fambilly with other brands..What more can you ask for, A great coach and all of us! ^.^d
This Forum family
I have owned several coaches over the years starting with a 1973 Travco, then a 1978 GMC, 1995 Beaver Patriot, 2005 Monaco Executive and now a 2015 Foretravel ih-45.
My wife wanted a coach with a bath and a half. So the research began. At the Tampa, Florida RV Super Show Foretravel introduced the 2012 ih-45. We were impressed with the quality of the build and all the amenity's that the coach offered. I knew nothing about Foretravel, so my research began. We looked at the Prevost, Newell, Newmar, and Entegra. I could not justify the $$$ for the Prevost and Newell when almost all the components were the same that were used in the Monaco Exec and the ih-45. Our list shrunk to three coaches, the Entegra Cornerstone, Newmar King Aire and the ih-45. I could not find much negative results about Foretravel. Most of those that I communicated with that owned a Foretravel praised the coach they owned, the company and the support they had received from Foretravel.
In the summer of 2015 we decided to do a Factory travel tour and go to the factory's and check out how each brand was built. The Entegra factory tour was about 2 hours long. To my surprise Entegra only assembles the coaches at the factory. The only components of the Entegra that are built in house are the interior components, Everything else is built by offsite vendors including the fiberglass. The other surprising thing about Entegra is they do not have a parts department. All the parts on site at the factory are for the production line coaches. The quality at Entegra was good and each coach had to pass a QC before moving to the next station in the build.
The Newmar Factory tour was about one and a half hours long and our tour guide was not up to the task. The factory assembly plant was a pig sty and almost no quality control from station to station. Like Entegra, a lot of the components are built by Vendors offsite and assembled at the Newmar factory. In the completed QC bay there was six coaches that were going through QC inspection. One was a King Aire going to a dealer in Florida. It had four 11" X 17" inch sheets of paper taped to the passenger side slide out with over125 issues that needed to be corrected.
Needless to say we were not very impressed with either manufacture. We visited both factory's in June and would not get out to Foretravel until the end of July.
The Foretravel Factory tour lasted about four hours and included all the different phases of manufacturing and construction of the coaches. When the tour was over we were satisfied that the ih-45 would be the coach to replace our Executive.
A little bit about myself; I am a corporate pilot - Retired. I still own two businesses, an Aircraft Modification business and a Chrome Plating business.
I am also the owner/moderator of the Monacoers.org group. We started the group in 2004 to help Monaco Coach owners with technical help. I have aver 5000 members to date. We are not a Social group, but more of a technical and help group. I put together a rally once a year and bring in vendors from Cummins, Detroit/Allison and others for seminars for the five day event.
I am very familiar with the valve issue of the ISX engine. The ISX is just about the staple engine installed in most of the high end production coaches, so the problems with the valve train were not just limited to Foretravel and the issue was present mostly in the ISX 650HP engine prior to 2012. After 2012 Cummins eventually reduced the HP to 600 and the ISX was built with a new cylinder head configuration which has fixed the problem.
We purchased our ih-45 and after almost four years of ownership I can honestly say it is the best coach we have ever owned. The quality is what you expect for a luxury coach. The support from the factory is surprisingly the best. We have had only three issues with the coach and all were covered and repaired under warranty. we have over 40,000 miles on the coach and other than a few operator issues I can find nothing to complain about.
Our Monaco Executive was also a very good coach and the only coach that we found that was equal to or better as far as Equipment and quality to replace it was the ih-45. The other choices just came down to that I would be giving up to much.
Monaco built great coaches up until 2006. Their high end coaches all had the best components and the quality was very good for a production coach. In 2007 Monaco was in trouble and lost it credit with many vendors and they were using whatever they had on the shelf to build coaches, so quality and product suffered greatly. 2004 thru 2007 were actually the best years for the Monaco high end coaches. After 2007, not so much. Monaco was sold out of Bankruptcy to Navistar in 2009 and the brand has suffered ever since. Navistar sold Monaco to the REV Group-(American Coach) and the decline continued to where now any Monaco coach is nothing more than a rebranded American Coach.
Now that I have had the experience to have owned both a Monaco Executive and the Foretravel ih-45 and from what I know and have experienced with both brands I would definitely purchase a Foretravel Coach.
Once you own a Foretravel you won't go back!
Cummins has designed a new cylinder head for the ISX engine. It's purpose is to eliminate the number 6 valve sucking problem. $4K, no core charge.
NEW Cummins ISX 15 Cylinder Head For Sale - City Of Industry, CA - Alliance... (https://www.alliancedieselllc.com/for-sale/new-cummins-isx15-cylinder-head-9853265)
Tim
Link didn't work for me. Here are some photos and ISX engines that have intake valve chordal failure: http://www.engineprofessional.com/TB/TB040318-2.pdf
Pierce
We looked at *lots* or coaches when we decided to go ahead and replace the P30 chassis class A we had for 19 years. If you are loking for a 10+ year old RV I think FT is the only choice. Parts availability and this forum seal that deal. And once you drive one, and notice how Foretravel built their chassis to not have bump steer, and how the others require constant steering correction because they dodn't, it quickly becomes a non-contest. Of course, I'm kinda biased, but geez I remember one Monaco I looked at wherein the entire battery inventory, as designed, was 2 standard car batteries. Sorry but that is unacceptable. I mean, ypu wpuldn't even be able to tailgate parth with that, much less boondock for even an hour...
I have owned more than one Monaco Signature RV. I have yet to own a Foretravel, but plan to do so one day. I agree with people here which coach is better, but I wouldn't expect otherwise considering where the question was posted.
I don't think the Foretravel is the better value coach. Every four slide 45' coach I looked at was over $100k more than the same year Monaco Signature. I don't feel it's THAT much better of motorhome considering the Newell is $100k over the Foretravel, and beats it handedly. I'm also considering the 2006-2007 year range due to it being the better Signature years (and Monaco closing it's doors shortly afterwards).
If we compare coaches in the same price range, We get a four slide Signature competing with a two, maybe three slide Foretravel, which I would not consider a fair contest (comparing apples to apples). It's also hard to find a large used Foretravel selection which makes the prices stay higher whether it's worth it or not. Foretravel is a better made coach, but my money is better spent on the Monaco for now.
Looks like you answered your own question with your last sentence,we chose quality over quantity you choose quantity over quality.
That seems like a smoking good deal for that head if it accomplishes all it claims. A pre emptive retrofit would make sense for some.
It sounds like you evaluate coaches based primarily on the number of slides: more slides equals more desirable. I believe you should stick with Monaco.
If more slides = better, then I agree also. Go for more slides. But consider the actual floor space those extra slides give you. Is it twice as much as 1/2 as many slides? If not then IMO you're trading twice the complexity for not much more inside space. Remember anytime you make a hole in a structure you weaken it. The structure needs to be properly designed and built to add back the structural integrity.
As an aside I've had people compliment how nice my coach looks but then ask with a dumbfounded look "you don't have ANY slides?"
Why buy a used Foretravel?
1. The knowledge base on the Forum
2. Quality Built (as is evident from the number of old coaches still in everyday use
3. Factory still in production
4. Factory parts dept still supports its older coaches
5. Factory technical support available
6. Repair and servicing facilities around the factory run by former employees supporting the older coaches
7. Not many parts that cannot be readily sourced
8. Factory remodeling of interiors available
9. Motorcade (owners club)
10.Chapters
What am I missing?
David
Probably could resell old head if removed serviceable, would be a no brainer if you owned a ISX IMO
Scott
How many windshields have you had to replace? My brothers '05 is on it's 3rd one and it has cracked again, he has only owned it 4 years. The company that made the leveling system also went belly up but I've heard that a buyer may buy the company and sell support parts. I owned a '81 Foretravel 40' diesel pusher for 18 years with very few problems. Bought a '96 Sig. in 2012 and had more problems in 3 years with electrical systems than 18 years on the FT. Bought my '99 Foretravel in '15 and it will outlast me for sure.
I remember some BMW cylinder heads that warped no matter what you did to them. Only option was to replace with the old one going in the round can.
ISX are not the only ones. I met a member my first time in Q that had just replaced his 8.3. 8.3 cummins with dropped valves - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=8.3+cummins+with+dropped+valves)
More HP usually means higher EGTs. And that almost always translates to a shorter lifespan.
Pierce
We were looking at a 4-slide CC and this was the realization we finally came to. We didn't actually get much more *usable* space. The only place we felt the extra slides moved the needle was the bedroom. Otherwise, it was just more floor space between seating areas or the kitchen. Unless you're really into yoga, it's hard to make an argument for the step down everywhere else IMO.
Our 5th wheel had two big opposing slides with a big island in the middle. Despite that, we actually find our FT feels bigger because the use of space is so much better.
Remember, bedroom slides, really limit access to engine. Equals higher maintenance cost.
Been there, done that.
Think gynecologist when working on engine!
Also, we sold Monico's at RnR, and almost everyone had slide water leak issues, that did much damage.
Chris
Slides always add complexity to a coach along with weight and compromised structural integrity. This means more maintenance in many cases.
They may limit interior space while driving.
Lots of law firms have owners with bad slides as clients.
If we full timed with extended time in locations, lots of slides might be the ticket. But we never will be full timers so no slides works best for us.
Pierce
Curious - this was a bump of a 5 month old topic as the member's first post on the forum...
Interesting about slides. I personally don't understand why someone wants a 45-ft coach with four slides but then that's me. Just not something I want.
Had a monarch move his coach the other day from Oceanside to higher up in the RV Park and he moved it without pulling in his rear slide. Now I don't know if he knew that or not but I thought you couldn't drive a coach with the slide out I guess he removed the interlocks. You know those safety interlocks that keep something really bad and expensive from happening when the owner does it dodo move like that.
The other thing I think I know is that people that own 45 ft motorhomes with four slides usually don't care about forums like these because then they take it to professionals and pay a lot of money to get things worked on. That's why a lot of us don't have newer models. Even if we could afford them and I'm sure some of us could we prefer to not have them so we can do our maintenance and our own work. I have a no slide coach and I really like it although I can understand that if I had a woman with me she would prefer more space. I've been in coaches with slides and I do like the extra space but then I think about the loss of storage hitting my head on those slides trying to access the bays underneath them and a host of other real and pretend issues in my brain. The other thing too is if you go on a foretravel forum expecting to hear anything other than Foretravel are the best then maybe you're barking up the wrong tree. If I go to a newel forum I would expect them to say their coach is the best same with country Coach and prevost. We all like what we have and what we spend money on. It was interesting hearing from you guys that have had multiple different types of coaches wound up with four travels and are totally happy with them. This is my first and probably my last motorhome.
I saw a video the other day of a woman that's sleeping in her Jeep. Then there's the van group. The scamps. The air streams. All the way up to 45 ft and four slides.
No telling what somebody will wind up with. Then I saw an Instagram today somebody who has a sailboat is selling it because guess what bad weather can just come up at any time LOL like they didn't know that before they bought the sailboat? That's like saying I'm going to sell my motorhome because the price of fuel is going up.. you bought a motorhome and you didn't realize that the price of fuel changes constantly?
My personal feeling is that unless you have a lot of money that you don't care about owning a motorhome like these is justifiable if you spend a lot of time on them and in them like full timing or at least part of the year. Otherwise it's just a hood ornament sitting in your driveway or worse, sitting in a storage lot.
No one has talked about moving around in the coach with the slides in.
In mine I can go from the very front to the rear with out having to climb over something.
Only thing I have to open a slide for is to get to the washer dryer. Not sure if that is the same for all FT
I have never wanted a slide. I prefer the extra storage space in the no slide. Also when I stop for a short time everything is usable.
Sounds like the vast majority of these instances involved heavily modded engines.
When we were searching for our next home, there was some discussion on slides.
I do most of the maintenance . . .
Now for me, Lynn said "We give up one half the cedar wardrobe for the washer dryer." Cedar Wardrobe?
Two years in, I find myself repairing water damage in the roof, and very happy to see that aluminum tube framing with the blue foam insulation. There was a factory oopsie when the skylight was originally installed, I didn't catch when I resealed the skylight two years ago. Full time living took its toll.
I hope it isn't!
I just thought all this time the value of my money was going down.
I'm so confused
Scott
I choose value over all else. If you prefer quality over quantity, then don't buy a Foretravel. Choose Newell or Prevost.
I do desire more slides because I'm going with my two kids. The extra space is needed while camping. The amount of slides doesn't change the basis of my post. You'll get a better coach with Foretravel, but pay quite a bit more.
I've been interested in buying a Foretravel for a couple years. Wanted to see what peoples thoughts were compared to Monaco, and I got my answer thank you.
But you already stated you preferred Monaco and you had already purchased one and simply posted to inform the group you had done so in a 5 month old thread that wasn't yours.
You weren't asking for member's thoughts (unless of course you are simply trolling the group...)
Thank you. Have a nice day.
This is a requirement on my next Foretravel. Which model do you have?
Obviously trolling.