Help. I just checked my 2002 U320 to make sure all is ok for low temperatures tonight (27 degrees). Coach not winterized. Normally, I am connected to a 50 amp outlet at my home with heat on. No previous problems.
But now I have one. The polarity lines on the monitor has one showing a reading of 2 and the second line showing 122. I did a quick search check but gave up. I need to ensure that I can safely get thru the night.
I turned off main breaker, then restarted to make sure it wasn't my Progressive surge protector and it showed ok after going through the 120 second check phase. Turned off main breaker again and disconnected each plug; at surge protector and at my extension cord plug connecting with the reel cord that goes into the motorhome. Still showing 2 and 120. Not sure what next step is at this hour.
I have the generator set for automatic; AquaHot on diesel turned off the roof ac which are in heat mode and have unplugged the microwave. Current battery readings are 13.75.
Am I ok for tonight? Or any additional recommended actions until I can revisit tomorrow? I hope a few night owls are still up. Thanks, Michael
Unfortunately no easy answer. Your going to have to get a meter and starting at the main breaker see where that leg is loosing voltage. If your progressive is showing low voltage without the coach plugged in, start there and work towards your outlet, and back until you find the issue. If you have power passing through the progressive work toward the coach. You May also have a sticking brush in the cord reel. Try pulling it all the way out and back in a time or two.
Thanks. I'll go try the reel cord check right now. If not a solution, have I taken the correct steps to get through the night?
You should be fine for the night with AH on deisel. What temps did you set your thermostats for?
I don't think the Progressive would let power into the coach if lines were 2/122. Maybe your monitor is giving a bad reading? I'd pull the cover on the circuit panel and measure each line there. It those measure good I'd say you are good tonight. You could also use a DVM to check all the outlets in the coach to see that everything is up to snuff.
see ya
ken
Are the readings you are seeing the
voltage on L1 and L2? You said "polarity" but those numbers sound more like voltage values.
If the voltage on L1 and L2 is not "balanced" (IE reading the same) then from my reading on this Forum it sounds like a possible "Open Neutral" situation, which can cause big problems. I AM NOT a electrical expert! See the thread linked below for some additional info:
L2 Voltage Way High (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31287.msg275325#msg275325)
Thanks for the link. I probably used the wrong terms but it is the voltage on the two legs that show up on the monitor inside.
Should I turn off the main breaker for tonight and leave everything set to run via the generator. I have generator set to auto start in case of power failure. I assume the basement thermostat controls the AquaHot?
Dan, my temperature settings are 45-50 degrees in the bay and upstairs. But I have turned the upstairs control off and it controls the furnace. Do I need to turn it back on?
Bruce,
I did try extending and retracting the reel hose and it did not resolve the issue. Thanks for helping.
Sorry I can't help with AquaHot questions. I don't have AquaHot.
What model of Progressive surge protector do you have? Is it the portable style or hard wired in the coach?
It sounds like you have a extension cord between the 50 amp outlet and your reel cord on the coach. Is it possible to remove the extension cord and still get your coach connected to the 50 amp outlet? If so, you might try that, to see if extension cord is bad.
Chuck,
Thanks and I have the portable surge protector. I am trying to read and process your helpful linked information. I would have to move the motorhome to eliminate the extension cord but will do that tomorrow.Tonight, I will plug the cord directly into the box as was previously suggested by someone tonight or in the link. If still no equal voltage, I will disconnect the 50 amp power and trust the generator until I can revisit in the morning.
Everyone get some rest and I appreciate each of you and your willingness to come to my assistance.
You can try putting your surge protector between the extension cord and the reel cord. If the surge protector is happy and shows equal volts on L1/L2, but you still show "bad" voltage in the coach, then at least you know the 50 amp outlet and the extension cord are OK.
Surge protector ran thru 120 second countdown and turned green indicating that power from main box to my outside 50 amp outlet box was good. I just pulled the surge protector and plugged extension cord plug directly into 50 amp female in the box. Turned power back on and checked voltage. No change in previous line voltages inside on the monitor. 2 and 122. I will place the surge protector between extension cord and reel cord in the morning as first step in trying to run down the problem.
I am now disconnected from 50 amp power source from the house, turned main coach thermostat back on with heat set on 50 and have generator set on auto. Hopefully, generator will start as designed, as needed.
And that's it for tonight. thanks
I use my rig all winter. I leave the front and bathroom thermostat set at 50 degrees and the the bedroom thermostat can be set at
35 degrees and if you want it lower open the shower door. Pull all the blinds down and I put sliver bubble wrap on the windshield.
Set the wet bay thermostat at 35 to 40 degrees. Turn off the inverter as that will save the battery. If you have good batteries the
generator shouldn't be needed. In fact the batteries shouldn't be below 12.5. When I was bringing the coach home it got down to
0 F and the coach was fine.
For trouble shooting the AC electrical system, two indispensable tools (IMHO) are a good quality digital multimeter and the device linked below: a Kill A Watt meter. You can walk around the coach and plug the Kill A Watt meter into all the AC outlets to do a quick check of the power status. If either 50 amp HOT leg is carrying abnormal voltage it will show on the meter at one (or more) of the outlets. Your coach electrical diagrams will tell you if a particular outlet is on L1 or L2.
Kill A Watt is also a great tool for monitoring generator output (volts/frequency) and for evaluating individual appliance power consumption.
Highly recommended! Can usually be purchased at Lowes, Home Depot, big hardware stores, and often at Walmart.
Kill A Watt Meter - Electricity Usage Monitor | P3 (http://www.p3international.com/products/p4400.html)
OK, here goes - have been there before and it's generally a simple issue.
2/122 means your powerline monitor says you have 1 leg of 50 amp working and 1 leg not. (this may or may not be true - keep reading)
The powerline monitor is a simple device that plugs into 2 outlets, one on each power leg. The "2" is a phantom number. It's simply a calibration error and don't worry about it.
The FIRST thing to look at is the breaker box on the foot of the bed. Start with the 2 breakers that mention power line monitor. Flip them completely off and back on. See if that fixes it.
The breakers get old and weak over time, especially the lowest ones in the breaker box since they're closest to the engine heat. We had to replace several in our '03 years ago and we had exactly the same symptoms you do. BTW they are standard household breakers you can buy at Lowes.
BTW, if that does fix it, you did have both legs of power, just not to the circuit that the power line monitor is plugged into. That's why the EMS said you were fine.
Thanks to all. I'm off to follow up on these helpful suggestions. Not sure if the temperature got as low as projected. Hopefully all is well but I realize that " hope is not a strategy". I'll try to take the motorhome on a routine warm up run today as well.
Use a voltmeter on the outlets behind the monitor. It is probably the monitor that is giving the wrong information. Mine failed in the same way.
Here is an outlet tester that does it all. Use it on both legs of the coach outlets. It tests GFCI, voltage, etc. I had a problem with my new sine wave inverter and the GFCI outlets. The regular testers came up short but the Klein said neutral and hot were reversed internally. Only available at Home Depot as far as I know as it's new on the market. Best $20 investment.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-GFCI-Receptacle-Tester-with-LCD-RT250/313832938 A good stocking stuffer!
YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfl6UdzC2rc
Pierce
Hope is a strategy, just more entertaining than good.
Another cheap and easy test for both legs is to plug a lamp or some other simple appliance into an outlet on "this" side of the box, and one on "that" side of the box. Each leg of the 50A should feed one side of the breaker box.
Pierce, we think this Klein tester is the best and everyone should have one.
We removed our separate 3-light polarity testers & analog volt meters that we had plugged into our homemade 50-amp testbed. And bought 2 Klein testers for the testbed.
Absolutely a simple, much improved all-in-one outlet tester. Even measures time it takes for a GFCI to trip.
Berry,
I got the last one on the rack at HD. Hope they get more in as I want one for my son, daughters.
FYI, early last week, they told my son they would vaccinate him on Friday at 5:50. He got it a minute early. Start up all coaches, we will be back on the road and eating in our favorite restaurants soon.
Pierce
Update. Issue was in the coach not the box, cords or plugs. When I started the engine and generator, (slower than normal start with cold morning) only one line showed 120 volts. So diagnosis and solutions are beyond my expertise and knowledge level. Knowing my limitations saves me a lot of grief.
Called Joe Bowman at Roadway RV and he agreed to take a look. On short notice. So I got my warmup drive completed; all chassis systems were good and checked the transmission oil level upon arrival(ok). Gussie is now with Joe at Roadway RV, just south of Birmingham. I have a lot of confidence in Joe for local service but my go to guys remain Nacogdoches Motorhome Service.
Thanks to all who have commented and tried to help. I have things to read and learn. I have recommendations for several late items for stocking stuffers. Will update after I hear from the service guys. Again, grateful to Forum for your help.
Do mention to him how the powerline monitor works - it could easily just be one of the breakers I mentioned above being tripped or the monitor itself as Craneman says. Very easy to check both of those.
ETA for ours, it was breaker #3 and breaker #9 (see where they are labeled "power watch"). Coincidentally, the only other thing on breaker #9 on our coach was the block heater.
Plug in voltage meter
Flat US Plug AC 80-300V LCD Digital Voltmeter Voltage Measuring Monitor, AC... (https://www.amazon.com/80-300V-Digital-Voltmeter-Measuring-Household/dp/B08HHYG2Y3/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Dual+voltage+meter+115&qid=1608412701&sr=8-6)
Three in the box for 18$ put one in a outlet with a different leg
Scott
Issue identified and partially resolved. Michelle had it pegged. I had flipped the breakers on Friday night as Michelle suggested but with no success. What I didn't factor in during my late night diagnostic quest, with several helpful forum members, was the block heater switch being turned on. My mistake but now I know, thanks to Michelle; it is on the same circuit/breaker. I had the block heater switch on anticipating my warmup drive. The block heater switch was tripping the breaker for that leg. Once block heater switched was turned off, success with 122 on both legs/lines. Now we trying to find out why the block heater is tripping the breaker. However, I now can function with heat in the motorhome on cold nights. I'll hear more tomorrow on the block heater issue. But a big thank you to all who have helped me especially on Friday night.
If one of our excellent moderators thinks this post needs to be relabeled to help in future searches, please do so.
It is highly likely that either the cord that plugs into the heating element has failed or the element has failed. Sometimes the cord fails right at the heating element. Check there first for a melted end. While there take an ohm meter and check the resistance of the element. Look real close at the cord for a bad spot where a rodent may have chewed through.
Mike
Very glad to hear the mystery is solved!
If you don't see the issues with the block heater wiring Mike mentions as being the likely cause, do try simply replacing the circuit breaker, especially if it's original to the coach. They do get weak over time. They're only $5 and available at Lowes.
It's been a few years, and do verify I am recalling correctly (look at your current breakers for the info), but I believe this is the one you need https://www.lowes.com/pd/GE-Q-Line-THQP-20-Amp-1-Pole-Standard-Trip-Circuit-Breaker/1098979
I forwarded Michelle's and Mike's suggestions on to RV Roadway. One dilemma we have in Birmingham is finding good technicians with Foretravel experience. May be skilled technicians but with less FT experience.
Check the outlet that supplies the block heater. Block heaters come in various wattages and if replaced, may be overloading the outlet. Our outlet was melted along the the plastic box so I replaced the outlet with a 20 amp plus a steel box. Block heaters are designed to heat the engine enough so it will start easily in cold weather and are not continuous duty. Remember to turn the block heater off before cranking the engine as a momentary air bubble can cause the element to overheat and burn out.
Buy the Klein outlet test at Home Depot for $20. It shows voltage, GFCI test with delay time shown plus tells is wiring is wrong. A new item and only available at HD in limited supply. See the video and description here: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-GFCI-Receptacle-Tester-with-LCD-RT250/313832938
Pierce
Be prepared if the element has failed. That block heater is very difficult to replace. The heater is inexpensive but the labor will be high. I tried to do it myself and failed.
I have changed the block heater on and 8.3 Cummins and it was no fun.
Several members have installed a remote block heater. They are available in both electric and propane. They mount in the engine compartment and have hoses leading from and to the engine. They may or may not have a small pump to circulate the coolant. I have a propane unit but the most common is 110V. This one draws 15 amps so could be also used by dry campers with their generator as this should be enough to warm the engine to start in an hour or so. Amazon.com: HOTSTART ENGINE HEATER TPS181GT10-000 - Coolant preheater -... (https://www.amazon.com/HOTSTART-ENGINE-HEATER-TPS181GT10-000-preheater/dp/B017I7MEAG/ref=asc_df_B017I7MEAG/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=416809947526&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13650774127058738900&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032583&hvtargid=pla-897792896568&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=90729932101&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=416809947526&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13650774127058738900&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032583&hvtargid=pla-897792896568) Engine blocks and cylinder heads almost always have removable plugs where a hose adapter could be threaded in.
Pierce
Detroit 6V-92 block heaters installed by Foretravel are in the thermostat housing where they are of almost no use. The normal placement is down under the AC compressor mount down low on the block. Changing the block heater would require draining the cooling system. I talked to a Wonderlodge owner parked near us in Death Valley. He had to use ether to start his Detroit even though he had a spare as there was no place to work on it and drain the cooling system at the campground.
So, yes, many block heaters are in a difficult to change location. Like Amos says, the heaters are inexpensive to buy but pricey to install.
Pierce
Update on my polarity/ line voltage issue and the culprit, my block heater switch. Both lines are showing correct voltage after the shop disabled the block heater switch. They discovered that the wiring and block heater are shot. As previously mentioned, melted cord and at the Bloch heater. RV Roadway is having difficulty finding both replacement parts. So I will bring Gussie home tomorrow and get those parts identified, located, ordered and maybe installed by a local, mobile diesel mechanic. For now, I will not have a block heater for those rare and early cold morning engine starts. I do have an ether switch on the dash but have never used and doubtful I ever will. Fear of the unknown.
I did get a Klein outlet tester in my Christmas stocking. Will search FF for recommendations for digital multimeter. I love Mrs. Claus.
And I appreciate y'all helping, suggesting and encouraging via the Forum.
Ether works great on cold diesels but if you have a heated screen, it can go off in the intake. So, unless you have a downstream ether induction spot, don't do it.
What will tide you over is a magnetic block heater. Just plug in and place against the block. Several different wattages available. Available in lots of parts stores, truck stops. https://www.amazon.com/Kats-Magnetic-Engine-Heater-1190X/dp/B08B817WF9/ref=asc_df_B08B817WF9/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475855943230&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10625082675381075459&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9032587&hvtargid=pla-1054288643926&psc=1
Pierce
You have a U320. Why don't you use the AquaHot to preheat the engine before a cold start?
That's what I was thinking also. I never use the elect. heating element.
MB,
You need to double check but you should need a Zerostart 8600015 about $100 (that does include a new cord though) if you think you need to replace it. I like others prefer the Aqua Hot.
Mike
Good to hear you have a resolution. Your ether switch, system was factory installed for a reason. So was your Aquahot preheat. Funny we have these factory installed tools and redundant systems and never learn how to fully use them. I too have the ether system and doubt I would ever need or use it also, but we should at least know more about it than just that it is there I guess. I'll look in the manual and see what it says later today.
Scott
Search "ether" on the Forum. Has been discussed many times. Some like/use it - some don't.
On our U280, the canister was mounted on the frame near the alternator. See photo. It has since been totally removed.
If your OEM ether system has never been serviced, good possibility it won't even work. Might require a fresh canister to function.
Amazon.com: Phillips Zerostart Heaters 8200327 Rplcmnt Start Fluid Cyl,18oz:... (https://www.amazon.com/Phillips-Zerostart-Heaters-8200327-Rplcmnt/dp/B0076DV80A/ref=pd_sbs_3?pd_rd_w=Kfdj1&pf_rd_p=ed1e2146-ecfe-435e-b3b5-d79fa072fd58&pf_rd_r=4NPK3FHT8PK36HBG69F7&pd_rd_r=1dbc45fa-f423-4a29-9e7c-ecf6345a423e&pd_rd_wg=rY46m&pd_rd_i=B0076DV80A&psc=1)
Yes I know it has been discussed, but would be nice to actually read the directions once. I agree probably would never need for my operating needs.
Scott
Scott,
That's the problem. People don't read the directions and unless it has a temperature lockout that is working, they will eventually use it on a warm/hot engine when they change fuel filters, etc and the engine won't start. The ether will explode with the piston only part way up on the compression stroke and create large over pressures possibly bending a rod, breaking piston rings, etc.
Our old Detroit had a little spring loaded cap on the blower intake where the Greyhound drivers could spray ether on freezing days. But the drivers were trained.
I have seen large blowtorches used on the air intake to start cold diesels.
Pierce
I used it last year once and then the next time it didn't work. Later I found the the plug had come off the switch. I went to try to
see if it would work and wouldn't work as I believe it has a fail safe temperature control so it won't work when it is warm out. Last week I used it and I let the engine turn over long enough that it didn't fire on its own and then I apply the switch
for a second and it fired right up. Mostly I use the Aqua-hot to warm up the engine.
So the block heater switch powers an outlet that is mounting in the engine compartment. The block heater plugs into that outlet.
On my coach I had to replace the outlet due to corrosion and the outlet/plug connections getting hot.
I replaced it with a whole new connection box that has an outdoor "in-use" rated cover - like you might have on a patio outlet of your house. The "in-use" cover is made to be watertight with a chord plugged into it - mine has a little rubber notch for the chord to pass through with the cover closed.
For 6V92 owners here's a post I did adding a block heater on the bottom. Piece is absolutely right about the OEM heater:
Alternate Block Heater on 6V92 Detroits (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23517.msg182835#msg182835)
Nice link John and excellent post! I did a temp test in Bishop, CA at a campground in winter. The block temp was unchanged in the morning with the heater plugged in all night. The crossover tube to the radiator was too hot to touch so the thermostat heater location is worthless.
The normal location is the one you describe down low on the block where the heat rises and warms the entire engine.
You do have to drain the coolant or it will run out on the ground.
Yes, replacing the outlet with a 20 amp should be done. The block heaters are available in different wattages so easy to heat the OEM outlet. Ours had partially melted.
This is what it looks like. It's not the straight type so don't confuse the two. Detroit Diesel V6-71 V8-71 V12-71 V6-92 V8-92 Engine Block Heater 1500W 120V... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-V6-71-V8-71-V12-71-V6-92-V8-92-Engine-Block-Heater-1500W-120V/184140270216?epid=696776852&hash=item2adf9d8a88:g:hYcAAOSwvmteKAWf)
Pierce
That's very good price on the 6V-92 heater.
For other engines, here's the Hotstart page where you can look up the block heater by engine model: Hotstart Thermal Management > Performance improving heating and cooling... (http://www.hotstart.com/product-search/in-block-heaters/)