So, after further inspection and chatting with Keith after sending him some pictures, we don't think it's a leak, thank God. It sounds like what has actually happened is the fiberglass as separated from the aluminum beam that's directly beneath the bubble (see attached pic).
I tightened down the AC unit from inside and that did help a little bit but it sounds like the long term fix will be to take it to Nac and have someone drill holes into the bubble, shoot adhesive in there, and then put a big heavy weight on it while it sticks back to the beam. I'm going to hop up there tomorrow mid-day to see if it goes away in warmer weather.
The current plan is to keep an eye on it and hope it doesn't get worse before we can get to Nac next winter. If it does, we'll probably end making an emergency trip to get it fixed. Anyone else had this happen to their coach?
I don't recall seeing that exact problem before. The longer timers with more experience may chime in.
You know, to me that roof surface in your photo does not look like gel coat. It has a kinda textured look...more like a coating has been applied to the original roof surface. If that was the case, then what you are seeing would make more sense. Simply a place where the coating has bubbled up due to poor prep before application.
I'm just armchair guessing here, so don't put too much stock in my comments.
I hope you're wrong because I just ordered a couple hundred dollars worth of Meguiar's gel coat product and tools ;D Keith told me I have serious oxidation I need to take care of up there so I think that's what you're seeing
I tried to find a photo of our (original gel coat) roof showing the surface texture, or rather lack of texture. These are the best ones I could find find right now. Our roof is perfectly smooth to the touch and doesn't have any little "bumps" like in your photo.
But like I said, I could be completely wrong.
Hmmm yes, that's very clearly different. I've read here on the forum of Extreme and FOT doing roof coatings with added texture for grip. I wonder if that's what I have? Thanks for bringing this up... I need to dig more before I start going to town on it.
EDIT: then again, I still have that original black traction/grip pad near the ladder...so that makes me think it's original...or at least very old before it was realized those pads were an issue.
Added another photo to post above, taken right after I cleaned up our roof. Roof is dry in second photo - not wet.
The coating Xtreme sprays on is fairly smooth with a slight sandpaper grit in it, it stops where the roof transitions to the curb on the sides. It is not thick or rubbery
The black pads need to go. The excess heat cracked my roof surface in the coated section. Appeared to be surface cracks/crazing. My roof is fiberglass and I understand quite thick, heavy. I too am concerned seeing your bulge in roof. Can't imagine fiberglass doing that. A overlayment would explain it better to me. Is it firm or pliable? Too bad you couldn't get resolved while you were there prior. Really curious to your outcome.
Scott
The bubble itself is pliable, but when you push it down, you hit a firm roof.
What's perplexing to me is that there is a corresponding area in the living room ceiling where it separated just slightly and you can see it in the leather ceiling. Maybe coincidence? Maybe not. I've been nervous about pulling the leather down to take a peak at it but I may need to
Jelcoat is hard like glass and breaks. Not pliable. Sounds like a overlayment of some type
Scott
The other thing that I am looking at is that metal strip that is screwed down running the length of the coach. I have neve seen that on a roof before. They did have something like that on the other side at one time as part of the awning mount but not on the drivers side. Could that be a hold down strip for an aftermarket rubber roof?
Mike
You might want to check with Eric Olstrom at Olstrom Custom Coach in Tucson about doing the repair. He works primarily on Country Coaches but I've seen several Fortravels there too. I would have thought MOT would have noticed that the roof looks different that most other Fortravels. Did the coach come with any records that shows work on the roof? Best wishes and positive thoughts to your wife and you - we are local in Phoenix if you need anything just shout.
The photos of that roof look more like a rubber coating to me than fiberglass. Doesn't look like any roof I have been on before installed on a Foretravel. Never saw a metal strip on the drivers side either! Our roof looks exactly like Chuck's! Smooth and clean!
I also think it looks like some sort of coating. The unusual metal strip was a good observation. Delamination of the fiberglass would not look so defined or narrow. It would be a bigger more gradual slight bulge that would feel a little soft when you push on it. If delamination occurred over the roof beam I would think it would be a foot wide or more, not a couple inches.
Does it originate from the corner of the AC? I can tell you from experience that any opening or screw penetrating the roof can be the source of water intrusion and ultimately gelcoat cracks or fiberglass delamination, all of which can be handled. If it is a coating of some sort, water could have entered from the AC opening corner and lifted in that area as it trys to make its way to the side. A leak would be the first priority and the cosmetics can be fixed at any point later.
No you don't. If it's still there find the leak on the roof and repair it. Wear your baseball hat indoors or don't look up. The ceiling is fine as it is now.
When we first rain in our U225, I discovered a serious leak in the skylight. I caulked the leak and it's about time to redo the skylight. This time I'll pull down the ceiling stuff and fix it.
You guys are giving me lots of good questions to ask and things to think about. First things first, I need to figure out exactly what sort of roof I have I guess. The couple things that I DO know are:
- It still has that black traction pad by the ladder. And it looks very old and weathered. So this isn't a recently done job...it makes me think it's original or an attempt at looking original at the very least
- It is not just a rubber roof. If that is indeed a TPO or EPDM membrane, it's been applied over some other material such as fiberglass that's able to flex up and cause that bubble. Even then, I think it's too thin to be a membrane. Unfortunately, I'm pretty familiar with TPO/EDPM roofs because I'm having a new one put on our trailer right now :headwall:
[/list]
I'm going to inspect that metal rail that you guys pointed out, because I have no idea what that is. I'm also going to hit a corner of the roof with a scrubby pad and some oxidation remover and see what happens. Is it possible that it's just THAT oxidized that it looks like a coating?
Can you post some more pics. of different areas of the roof?
In this pic. it even looks like there are pone nots popping up, the only time I have seen this on a fiberglass roof section is from a lightning strike that vaporized some moisture in the glass causing bubbles. if that is some kind of coating then it could be from anything that got in there during the coating process.
Mike
When I was on my roof cleaning the Arkansas off of it I used my 4000 psi pressure washer to 90% remove the black anti skid near the ladder. That exposed the several small cracks/crazing that I sealed. Will eventually coat area with white wing walk compound. It had been stored then and now under cover. Thanks to the forum to bringing to my attention before more damage was done.
Scott
Here are all the ones I took last night. I can snap more later today if there's more you guys want to see.
Elliott,
Those pics. help for sure. It appears that rail in your first pic. is where the window awning is attached and can be seen in the #327 pic more clear. In both pics. 326 & 327 it looks like those pone nots are the full length of the coach. I have never seen one like that but it could be oxidation magnifying the spots.
Mike
So the position of the sun makes this look much bigger than it actually is, not saying there isnt something, just that it's not As big as it appears. Looks 3/4 of a inch tall but now guessing 1/8 of a inch? This could be something easily overseen with sun overhead or area in shade?
Scott
In east Texas if you hit your head on the hood of a car as you are under there it gives you a '"pone not" I guess it could be spelled "knot" but we are from the back woods.
Mike
Mike, what are pone nots?
EDIT: someone asked the question before me but I'll leave this comment here because apparently another one of the photos I tried to upload finally went through unbeknownst to me
I think Scott may have something in the angle of the sun magnifying the bumps and the wrinkle at the A/C. That wrinkle will need to be addressed before it cracks out.
Mike
You're right, the sun definitely makes it all look bigger. It's not 3/4" but probably more than 1/8. I'll get a better guestimate later today. The little bumps definitely are not as noticeable as that pictures when you're up there in daylight
Elliott,
If you compare the size of the shadow of the dish and the antenna in pic 328 then that wrinkle can't be that tall. Those bumps around the rest of the roof are the same thing. During the mid day those little bumps won't be noticeable.
Mike
Can you comment on the texture/feel of the roof material? It definitely doesn't look like any usual coatings that have been done, although about 5 years ago or so one of the shops did a couple of roofs with a thick material that looked cake-frosting-like when complete.
Elliott,
Here's another "tool" that might help you as you investigate your roof. Photo below was taken when I removed a old dead satellite dish from our coach. It was stuck down VERY tight. In getting it off I managed to tear the roof material around the hole. I later covered the damaged area with a tightly sealed metal plate, so it has never been a problem.
But to the matter at hand - in the photo (zoom in) the arrow points to a spot where the gel coat came off with the dish mount, revealing the fiberglass mat material below it. The piece of gel coat was very hard. Like Scott said earlier, it is almost like glass (or ceramic) - hard and brittle. It will not bend without breaking or cracking. It is also a very thin layer, typically 0.5 mm to 0.8 mm.
I only mention these things so you can compare them to your roof material. Does the surface on your roof have any "give"? By that I mean can you push your finger nail into the surface anywhere on the roof and leave a mark? If so, it is not gel coat. Even very badly oxidized gel coat would still be a hard unyielding surface. I know, because mine was once badly powdered out and leaving big white streaks down the sides of our coach. After I cleaned it up it came out looking like the photos I posted earlier.
HMMmmm.... Furthur investigation of Forum archives revealed the old thread linked below. Read through it (especially Reply #10) for a possible answer to this mystery. Perhaps what Michelle is talking about in post above?
Roof Coating (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=20359)
;)
If your fingernail can leave a mark in the material, there's a possibility...
Temp Coat or paint with glass at Extreme (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=26415.msg211852#msg211852)
Although also see reply #10 in this thread regarding a rubberized coating offered by FOT
Roof finish (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23537.0)
So went out to my dirty coach and took some comparison photos in same area. Couldn't see in photo dip in my roof so put 5' straight edge on it and flashlight to help see. About a 1/8" bow on mine downward. I'm zero concerned about my bow.
Scott
Ok, I was able to get out there right before dark today and take some pictures. It was overcast here today so no shadows to play tricks on us. Here's what I now know:
- It's hard. Like fiberglass hard. If I hit it with a hammer, it would crack. There's no digging into it with your nails.
- It is DIRTY. But, when I hit it with some simple green and a scrubby pad, it started looking like Chuck & Jeannie's (see pic)
- Once cleaned up, the texture is smooth. I wouldn't want to try and stand on it when it's wet, it's that smooth.
- The bubble is less than 1/8" tall. I could barely see it today without the sun.
[/list]
I only cleaned up the small circular area as a test. The other pictures showing more of the roof from the ladder are not cleaned at all. I'm going to start hitting the whole thing with Meguiar's 3-step marine/rv stuff this weekend.
Question: If I take the grippy pad off and see cracking, what's the fix for that?
Thanks again all
-E
This is why it is so hard to diagnose problems from photos, although we on the Forum often try to do that the best we can. The only way to really know what is going on is to look at it in person.
If your roof surface comes out hard and smooth after a vigorous cleaning, then you are probably correct in thinking it is original.
As to fixing the black no-step stuff, the first step is to carefully scrape it off any way you can. Try not to damage the gel coat in the process. After it is gone, see how the gel coat under it looks. If there are any deep cracks that penetrate the gel coat, then they will require repair. Others on the Forum can advise on the best method. The end goal is preventing and/or correcting any damage that could allow water to penetrate the roof. Water leaks = BAD.
If you don't see cracks coming through the black stuff there probably isn't any cracking under it. I would just apply white epoxy paint over it with a brush. Mask the perimeter and add sand or grit to make it non-skid if necessary. Just my opinion.
As for the bubble area I would make sure there is no active leak going on. I would do that by accessing the AC opening on the inside of the coach where the edge of the roof opening is visible and look for any wetness or signs of it. You will be able to see the cross-section of the roof. You have a "fancy" ceiling design so I'm not sure how the panels are removed but I think that is covered somewhere here on the forum. You only need to remove the panels, not the A/C itself.
Here's a thread with some more opinions (everybody's got one) on how to deal with the black non skid stuff.
Roof leak (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31971)
Thanks Chuck, you probably saved me a good amount of sleuthing with this. I noticed some very slight checking in the gel coat when I was really looking close on my hands and knees so I suspect I may find more once I get all this oxidation cleaned up.
I just pressure washed of what was removable let dry for several days then filled crack with Scotchweld. Will paint over with two component wing walk paint with sand in it. White in color
Scott
Well I think we got lucky. No cracking beneath the pad!
Removal took about 20 minutes with a heat gun and putty knife
Looks great! I wouldn't give it another thought. After you get your whole roof cleaned up, just treat that area with the same wax or sealer product that you use on the rest of the roof.
Well I got up there today and scrubbed the whole thing with a very mild bleach solution, let it dry, and then went at it with an orbital buffer & Meguiar's Oxidation remover. Man that sucked. There's some very mild checking in the gel coat in a couple spots that I plan to address with a two-step epoxy paint and then I'll hit it all again with Meguiar's Wax and then their polish after that.
Seeing the roof in it's current form has highlighted how much oxidation is also on the end caps so they're next. I also resealed the seams on the end caps today.
I put new pads and calipers on my F250 this weekend too, so she's about ready to be put up for sale so we can start the hunt for a GX470 or LX470 :D
Geez, that would take me a few weeks. Not to do the job but for the body recovery after! Oh to be young again.
Just installed the Blueox baseplate on my GX470. Give me a pm if you get one and I'll give you a few tips. Can't wait to get my GX in the mountains next summer.
You might want to strongly reconsider wax and polish after paint, plus adding a nonslip grit additive to the epoxy paint.
The last thing you want to do is make the roof slippery and thus hazardous to be on. There are no "grab bars" up there and it's slightly domed. Most of the roof coating jobs folks have had done are classic white paint with grit.
We definitely appreciated the "traction assist" on ours, and it was not hard to clean.
[split out all the roof discussion from the original general coach topic to make future search results cleaner]
I'm all ears for any suggestion that doesn't mean two more bouts with the orbital buffer!
Since we're full timers, our rig will very seldom get respite from the sun so I figured the wax was a good step towards longevity. I was only going to paint the areas with checking (less than 1sqft total if you combined them all). Are you suggesting I repaint the whole roof en lieu of wax? I really don't care about cosmetics, I just want to protect the roof as best I can. Adding some traction would be a plus too.
I tipped and rolled two part boat gloss white on our roof. I didn't add any grit to the paint as it collects dirt easier. The roof is .400 total inches thick with gelcoat over about one layer of mat and then wood. Wish it were glass cloth but... The gelcoat is pretty thin and very hard. I don't walk on it if it's wet.
Pierce
Elliot, I can't say where I got it right off the top of my head but several years ago after many, many hours of deoxidizing the roof I used a "non-slip" boat deck polish on the roof. That lasted for a few years, needs it again now but the next step will be clean, sand and paint. Some have used coatings that are non-slip or traction enhanced and some add 3M micro glass bubbles as extra insulation. In the long run coating the roof seems to be the best long term choice.
I would highly suggest applying a fiberglass sealer on before you wax such as this gel coat Labs product. It will make waxing easier for years.
Gel Coat All Marine Surface Sealant 16 oz. (https://www.fourstarproducts.com/gelcoallmasu.html)
Having "been there", although we did pay someone to do it, I would actually repaint the whole roof (with UV-stabilized paint that had some nonskid media mixed in).
A slick roof can be very dangerous, especially when wet, which is why you really wouldn't want to wax it.
I regel coated my roof and today it sure paid off. Last winter I had to sweep snow off the roof an it was so slippery that it was worth
my life to be up there, in fact is was bad wet. An hour ago I was up there sweeping snow off the roof and it wasn't too bad.
PTI WING WALK COATING | Aircraft Spruce (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/pti-wingwalk.php)
White wing walk compound will protect your fiberglass and will prevent sliding off the top. Won't increase heat gain like the black. Yes it collects dirt. It's real heavy. Trade off is sliding off. I'll probably will never have to sweep snow of but that brings up a good point. You may have too. I've spent countless hours on top of cold wet wings and just in the past couple of years we are required to properly gear up and tie off for fall protection. The fall won't hurt you, it's when you stop at the end. I'm too old/scared to get hurt anymore. I'm not saying to cover entire roof, just strips or paths were you walk. Never know when you will have to secure something do to damage on the road. IMO
Scott