Title: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: D.McGee on December 27, 2020, 10:22:02 pm
Post by: D.McGee on December 27, 2020, 10:22:02 pm
Hi folks, been awhile since I posted last as I generally find what I need in the archives.
First 2 things ... I posted this initially in Around the fire ring but think this may be a better place, and I apologize for the long post (being succinct is not one of my super powers)... here goes.
I'm working to assess a problem with the roof on my 2008 Nimbus that appears to be the result of water penetration around one of the three brackets attaching the Girard Awning to the roof. The issue has manifested in what I believe is localized delamination of roof fiberglass and some swelling of the roof laminate immediately adjacent to the bracket. The swelling is prominent and actually cracked the exterior roof surface structure. There is no obvious evidence of water penetration inside the coach... the bracket / area of trouble is on the passenger side over the rear wheel approx. between the potty and a closet
I've removed the 220lb awning (that was fun!!) and have cleaned up caulking etc on and around the bracket in question. I need to remove the bracket to determine how far the damage has spread and see if I can determine root cause. I also want to look 'in the attic' at the underside of the roof for the same reasons.
But I can't look under the bracket because ... the bracket has captive nuts installed on it ... the bracket is held in place by bolts that are installed from inside the coach so I need to remove the ceiling in the coach. And I can't figure out how to remove the ceiling for fear of breaking something I don't want to have to replace/replicate.
The last time I asked about some trim removal I found out it was just held in place with velcro. If velcro is holding the ceiling panel in the potty I'll be surprised or maybe even amazed. I used an automotive trim tool to try and pry it up and I was sure I'd break the underlying substrate or tear the vinyl(?) covering... but I can't see any other obvious means of attachment. What's the secret?
Who's had the pleasure of taking a ceiling apart??
dan
First 2 things ... I posted this initially in Around the fire ring but think this may be a better place, and I apologize for the long post (being succinct is not one of my super powers)... here goes.
I'm working to assess a problem with the roof on my 2008 Nimbus that appears to be the result of water penetration around one of the three brackets attaching the Girard Awning to the roof. The issue has manifested in what I believe is localized delamination of roof fiberglass and some swelling of the roof laminate immediately adjacent to the bracket. The swelling is prominent and actually cracked the exterior roof surface structure. There is no obvious evidence of water penetration inside the coach... the bracket / area of trouble is on the passenger side over the rear wheel approx. between the potty and a closet
I've removed the 220lb awning (that was fun!!) and have cleaned up caulking etc on and around the bracket in question. I need to remove the bracket to determine how far the damage has spread and see if I can determine root cause. I also want to look 'in the attic' at the underside of the roof for the same reasons.
But I can't look under the bracket because ... the bracket has captive nuts installed on it ... the bracket is held in place by bolts that are installed from inside the coach so I need to remove the ceiling in the coach. And I can't figure out how to remove the ceiling for fear of breaking something I don't want to have to replace/replicate.
The last time I asked about some trim removal I found out it was just held in place with velcro. If velcro is holding the ceiling panel in the potty I'll be surprised or maybe even amazed. I used an automotive trim tool to try and pry it up and I was sure I'd break the underlying substrate or tear the vinyl(?) covering... but I can't see any other obvious means of attachment. What's the secret?
Who's had the pleasure of taking a ceiling apart??
dan
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on December 28, 2020, 02:42:15 am
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on December 28, 2020, 02:42:15 am
I don't know how the inner roof of your coach attaches but my GUESS would be that its not made to be accessed from the inside.
Your problem starts at the outside roof. I would start there and work down through the roof from the outside in.
Paint, Gelcoat, fiberglass, wood, interior trim.
Your problem starts at the outside roof. I would start there and work down through the roof from the outside in.
Paint, Gelcoat, fiberglass, wood, interior trim.
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: D.McGee on December 28, 2020, 10:18:08 am
Post by: D.McGee on December 28, 2020, 10:18:08 am
Hmmmm .... well, I hope you're wrong regarding not being able to pull out the ceiling panels ...it wouldn't seem reasonable to me. How would you go about replacing the ceiling in a refurb or repair (rip/destroy and replace?)? Anyway I'll post an update when I know.
I guess my to-do for today is to call Foretravel and get the skinny.
Thanks, Dan
I guess my to-do for today is to call Foretravel and get the skinny.
Thanks, Dan
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: D.McGee on December 30, 2020, 07:04:49 pm
Post by: D.McGee on December 30, 2020, 07:04:49 pm
Ok.... talked to Ronnie at Foretravel tech support yesterday and late today. Sent him some pics and the response I got was that according to the person (people?) he spoke to I shouldn't need to remove bolts from the inside.
According to what they told him .... I just need to remove the nuts from the top of the bracket (on the outside .. top of the roof) ...anyone out there who has easy access to their Girard awning (one > 16' long) let me know if yours has nuts on the top of the bracket holding it down.....please....
So, I related to Ronnie (I do like this guy from a support perspective) that while I'm no master mechanic, I was pretty certain that there ARE NO NUTS holding the bracket down to the top of the roof, and that from what I recalled the insert was a round surface and nothing like a 6 sided nut. We both marvelled over that and after a few minutes of discussion I committed to getting some close up pics of the attachment this evening (most of the pics I sent Monday were from a standing height).
So, attached (assuming I can get an attachment to work) are a couple of close-ups ... for your consideration.
For some reason I feel like the coach bucks are adding up.... :(
dan
According to what they told him .... I just need to remove the nuts from the top of the bracket (on the outside .. top of the roof) ...anyone out there who has easy access to their Girard awning (one > 16' long) let me know if yours has nuts on the top of the bracket holding it down.....please....
So, I related to Ronnie (I do like this guy from a support perspective) that while I'm no master mechanic, I was pretty certain that there ARE NO NUTS holding the bracket down to the top of the roof, and that from what I recalled the insert was a round surface and nothing like a 6 sided nut. We both marvelled over that and after a few minutes of discussion I committed to getting some close up pics of the attachment this evening (most of the pics I sent Monday were from a standing height).
So, attached (assuming I can get an attachment to work) are a couple of close-ups ... for your consideration.
For some reason I feel like the coach bucks are adding up.... :(
dan
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Old Toolmaker on December 31, 2020, 10:02:10 am
Post by: Old Toolmaker on December 31, 2020, 10:02:10 am
. . . attached (assuming I can get an attachment to work) are a couple of close-ups ... for your consideration.
For some reason I feel like the coach bucks are adding up.... :(
dan
Short of turning the project over to Foretravel, and if you want to tackle the project yourself, I suggest calling in a local re-modeling contractor and paying him for his opinion on how he would go about restoring the inside. That being said, for me, the next step is to layout and drill four 1/8" or 3mm through holes, from the outside, to define the area that needs to be opened. Then find out that there is a way to remove the ceiling without damaging the covering. Art. Happy New Year.
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: oldmattb on December 31, 2020, 10:25:16 am
Post by: oldmattb on December 31, 2020, 10:25:16 am
I don't know what is inside of the ceiling of your coach, or mine!
When I look at the question of removing the brackets, I think:
1. spray the threaded areas of the studs with penetrating oil of some type, so it can be loosening up
2. use a Dremel with a metal disc to cut a screwdriver slot in the stud, in case it wants to spin
3. use same Dremel to grind wrench flats on opposite sides of the round nut, so I can get a wrench on it
4. remove the nuts and the bracket
When I look at the question of removing the brackets, I think:
1. spray the threaded areas of the studs with penetrating oil of some type, so it can be loosening up
2. use a Dremel with a metal disc to cut a screwdriver slot in the stud, in case it wants to spin
3. use same Dremel to grind wrench flats on opposite sides of the round nut, so I can get a wrench on it
4. remove the nuts and the bracket
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 31, 2020, 11:15:37 am
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on December 31, 2020, 11:15:37 am
There really is no attic. The roof structure is aluminum square tubing, foam filling all of the spaces, thin plywood over all of that and then fiberglass on the outside and pretty sure on the inside. The roof structure connects to the side rails which are curved to go from the top to the side.
If you remove the outside back cover of your cabinets where the brackets are you may see the bolt heads there. The one towards the inside my be buried in the material covering the ceiling of the cabinet. You can see the curved part (square on the inside in the picture where camera cable come out.
A magnet will help find the bolts. The hooks are useful too for lots of things.
If you remove the outside back cover of your cabinets where the brackets are you may see the bolt heads there. The one towards the inside my be buried in the material covering the ceiling of the cabinet. You can see the curved part (square on the inside in the picture where camera cable come out.
A magnet will help find the bolts. The hooks are useful too for lots of things.
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Frontier Camping on December 31, 2020, 12:19:35 pm
Post by: Frontier Camping on December 31, 2020, 12:19:35 pm
My 2006 Nimbus has the same round hardware attaching my 20 foot Girard to the roof. The tip of the stud is threaded so it appears that the round "nuts" should come off with vice grips or similar. Hope this helps...
Tyson
Tyson
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: youracman on December 31, 2020, 12:43:49 pm
Post by: youracman on December 31, 2020, 12:43:49 pm
Just my opinion: I "believe" these are "Huck bolts" ........ usually installed for max strength and to prevent loosening due to vibration. If you are not familiar with huck bolts, c/o the info available on youtube by entering "huck bolt" in the search box.
IF I am correct, you may be able to split the "nut" with a dremel cutoff wheel (and a ton of patience) and then replace with a regular nut/lock washer combination (cutting a screwdriver slot in the stud as suggested by oldmattb) .... even if the bolt thread is grooved a bit from the dremel tool use. I don't like this design/application ..... I'm sure you like it a lot less than I. :^(
BTW- I am an "outsider" with a rinky-dink Class C WBGO but this is, and always has been, my favorite RV forum. SOoooo many savvy folks here to learn from. I read it daily. Hope I never get "kicked off" as a non-owner.
Best.............. and stay safe
Ed Sievers, Denver, CO
IF I am correct, you may be able to split the "nut" with a dremel cutoff wheel (and a ton of patience) and then replace with a regular nut/lock washer combination (cutting a screwdriver slot in the stud as suggested by oldmattb) .... even if the bolt thread is grooved a bit from the dremel tool use. I don't like this design/application ..... I'm sure you like it a lot less than I. :^(
BTW- I am an "outsider" with a rinky-dink Class C WBGO but this is, and always has been, my favorite RV forum. SOoooo many savvy folks here to learn from. I read it daily. Hope I never get "kicked off" as a non-owner.
Best.............. and stay safe
Ed Sievers, Denver, CO
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Old Toolmaker on December 31, 2020, 01:28:02 pm
Post by: Old Toolmaker on December 31, 2020, 01:28:02 pm
My 2006 Nimbus has the same round hardware attaching my 20 foot Girard to the roof. The tip of the stud is threaded so it appears that the round "nuts" should come off with vice grips or similar. Hope this helps...
Tyson
I have some experience with that type of fastener although I'm not familiar with that particular design. It's dropped into a drilled hole and grips tightly when tightened. And what do you do with the bolt? He might be able to slot the end of the bolt and use a screw driver to turn it through, but through to where?
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: D.McGee on January 02, 2021, 02:43:30 pm
Post by: D.McGee on January 02, 2021, 02:43:30 pm
I have some experience with that type of fastener although I'm not familiar with that particular design. It's dropped into a drilled hole and grips tightly when tightened. And what do you do with the bolt? He might be able to slot the end of the bolt and use a screw driver to turn it through, but through to where?
---------------------------------------------------------------
....Exactly!! Hmmmmm, I really need to be able to get into the space between the ceiling and the roof where the insulation lives (that we won't call an attic) so the bolts can be reliably and easily removed then later tightened.
Current status ....
The good news for us I think is that my problem appears to be a rare one. Specifically, I find scant clues in my searching, about anyone who's had a need to dig into the ceiling.
The closest I get to any solid info is from those who've had a delam issue and gone at it from the roof down for core replacement/repair, or those who've had headliner sagging / separation.
At this point I'm beginning to fear that perhaps Lon/Cheryl may be correct ... I can't get there from here. However, I'm still waiting on a definitive response from Foretravel tech support before I decide what to do next. If they tell me there isn't a clean/tidy way to get to the bolts from inside I'll probably bundle it all up and take it somewhere that has the ability to deal with all the carnage. This would really go against my grain since after all, my goal was to be able to assess the scope of work before I simply get quotes (not that I don't just trust every vendor I do business with to tell me what I need :) ).
Of course I may change my mind after I get a few of those quote$$.
In the meantime I'm going to take some of the rendered comments and see if I can determine exactly where the bolts/bracket is located from the inside. I liked the magnet idea (thanks Roger .. or Susan) and have a couple of very large and powerful neodymium magnets that may do the trick ... failing that I also have a stud finder that is supposed to differentiate materials (wood/ferrous/non-ferrous). There's a good chance that it (bracket) is positioned entirely over a closet space adjacent to the potty.
If so........
dan
random thoughts follow:
Attic ... I agree it's not really an attic ... but the space in question resides between the top of the ceiling and the bottom of the roof. It's where the insulation and some utility stuff resides ... so what should we call it?
Huck bolts (good call Ed) ... never heard of them although I've had plenty of experience with PEM-nuts and REV-Nuts. These are also captive fasteners albeit the ones I've used are smaller than these HUCKsters, and I know I've never seen one from the outside of anything ... it's not a typical use case. The bolts on the bracket are probably 3/8 or larger.
I think any notion of removing these from the outside without it turning into a train wreck is unlikely.... keep in mind there are 6 on each bracket so 6 opportunities for a poor outcome.
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on January 02, 2021, 03:19:23 pm
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on January 02, 2021, 03:19:23 pm
The roof structure was formed as a single piece. The outside was down in a curved mold, built up in layers with aluminum structure, conduits, foam and the inside surface all done as one piece
A huck bolt has a head on a bolt like stud the goes through materials to be joined. On the other end a nut like piece goes over the stud (ridged, not reqlly threaded) and the applicator tool grabs the stud while the end fits over the nut like piece. The stud is pulled the nut#like part is pushed against the parts being joined and compressed and deformed to its final shape joining with the ridges. When enough force has been applied the stud breaks off.
If that is what they are then there has to be a hole through the inner part of the ceiling structure to some aluminum internal structure. Determine where the outside attachments are and find them inside. If they are huck bolts the get a sawzall and cut them off. You still have to find them inside.
See roof structure.
Roger
A huck bolt has a head on a bolt like stud the goes through materials to be joined. On the other end a nut like piece goes over the stud (ridged, not reqlly threaded) and the applicator tool grabs the stud while the end fits over the nut like piece. The stud is pulled the nut#like part is pushed against the parts being joined and compressed and deformed to its final shape joining with the ridges. When enough force has been applied the stud breaks off.
If that is what they are then there has to be a hole through the inner part of the ceiling structure to some aluminum internal structure. Determine where the outside attachments are and find them inside. If they are huck bolts the get a sawzall and cut them off. You still have to find them inside.
See roof structure.
Roger
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: TGordon on January 02, 2021, 03:30:08 pm
Post by: TGordon on January 02, 2021, 03:30:08 pm
I believe your Nimbus has ducted AC units.
Look inside your AC ducts for the fasteners.
Look inside your AC ducts for the fasteners.
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: master2301 on January 02, 2021, 04:11:46 pm
Post by: master2301 on January 02, 2021, 04:11:46 pm
When visiting the Foretravel Factory, we took these photos in 2018. Believe to be same process used all along, but not sure
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on January 02, 2021, 04:47:14 pm
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on January 02, 2021, 04:47:14 pm
Two molds, first does the inside skin and structure. Second has the roof flipped over inside up, outside skin down, adding the internal ducting. The manufacturing process hasn't changed much in the last 20 yers, just bigger coaches.
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: D.McGee on January 02, 2021, 06:33:50 pm
Post by: D.McGee on January 02, 2021, 06:33:50 pm
Interesting ... nice pics of the upper/lower roof sections. It would appear that there may be more of an open void in some areas than I'd have thought.
My assumption was that these bolts (huck) worked like PEM nuts but after reading Roger's description I found this online (https://youtu.be/zY_dD0MSXsc). It's a video showing a huck bolt being set.
So, after reading your msg and seeing the video it sounds like these work like a fancy pop rivet on steroids. Put it in place, pull it to a specified compression force using a hydraulic or pneumatic tool and move on to the next one. It also appears as though these studs have a carriage bolt like head on one end and on the other end the 'nut' gets cinched down as you describe on shallow threads.
I found another video on removing hulk bolts 'when they are accessible'.... the example huck looks a lot like the one on my coach and involved a grinder with a cutting disc on it (yeah sparks). And as alluded these are one and done (not reusable) ....
So, if this is indeed what I'm dealing with it's going to stink in ways i'll refrain from stating here ... we'll see if Foretravel has any good news for me.
dan
My assumption was that these bolts (huck) worked like PEM nuts but after reading Roger's description I found this online (https://youtu.be/zY_dD0MSXsc). It's a video showing a huck bolt being set.
So, after reading your msg and seeing the video it sounds like these work like a fancy pop rivet on steroids. Put it in place, pull it to a specified compression force using a hydraulic or pneumatic tool and move on to the next one. It also appears as though these studs have a carriage bolt like head on one end and on the other end the 'nut' gets cinched down as you describe on shallow threads.
I found another video on removing hulk bolts 'when they are accessible'.... the example huck looks a lot like the one on my coach and involved a grinder with a cutting disc on it (yeah sparks). And as alluded these are one and done (not reusable) ....
So, if this is indeed what I'm dealing with it's going to stink in ways i'll refrain from stating here ... we'll see if Foretravel has any good news for me.
dan
Title: Re: How do I get into the attic? - Under roof access
Post by: Old Toolmaker on January 02, 2021, 10:10:37 pm
Post by: Old Toolmaker on January 02, 2021, 10:10:37 pm
I found another video on removing hulk bolts 'when they are accessible'.... the example huck looks a lot like the one on my coach and involved a grinder with a cutting disc on it (yeah sparks). And as alluded these are one and done (not reusable) ....
So, if this is indeed what I'm dealing with it's going to stink in ways i'll refrain from stating here ... we'll see if Foretravel has any good news for me.
dan
Dan previously wrote "In the meantime I'm going to take some of the rendered comments and see if I can determine exactly where the bolts/bracket is located from the inside. I liked the magnet idea (thanks Roger .. or Susan) and have a couple of very large and powerful neodymium magnets that may do the trick ... failing that I also have a stud finder that is supposed to differentiate materials (wood/ferrous/non-ferrous). There's a good chance that it (bracket) is positioned entirely over a closet space adjacent to the potty.
If so........"
One 1/8" drill hole from the outside in. The you'll know for certain where the inside it. It's either that or become a surveyor. I mean what cold go wrong? Drill into the back of a large glass mirror and shatter it?