Like others I am having problems with airbags.
o The airbags on my look good.
o Some minor surface checking.
o The front airbags look better than the rear.
Went camping this week. The campsite had a maybe a 6" slope. The pavement had a crown. Maybe 1" side to side.
I leveled the coach. Plenty of travel for that. The rear passenger bag was inflated. The passenger front was pretty high. The driver side was a little more inflated than the passenger. About what you would expect.
The problem was every 30 minutes the coach would dump air and re-level. I returned home and left the coach in travel mode. Looked at it an hour later and the passenger front was down. Drivers rear was high Passenger rear was normal and passenger front was normal.
Ok looks like a leak in passenger front.
Got on line and found the HWH web site. They have a online technical course that can be accessed by anyone. I looked through the leveling system section. There are several leveling algorithms used. The one used depends on the age or the system and conditions at the time. What I was seeing was the air was dumped then the coach was re-leveled from scratch. Every 30 minutes to 1 Hour.
So I figure the passenger front is leaking. If it leaked down far enough at the 30 minute check it would execute the algorithm where all air is dumped then the coach is leveled. Annoying to say the least. The pump on my coach pulls from the starting batteries. This is a problem because the starting battery bank is not normally charged while plugged in. The starting bank is AGM, the house bank is gel cell batteries with different charge requirements. So using the boost switch for long periods is not acceptable.
We lived with this problem for three days. When time to leave the starting bank was low but I was able to start the engine.
We made it home yesterday afternoon. I left the coach in travel mode.
An hour later the passenger front was way down. All other corners of the Coach were still at ride height. The driver Rear was elevated some "lifted because the passenger side was down
Like I said air bags look good. No obvious problems with the air lines or fittings. I have a few questions.
1. How long should the bags remain inflated before leaking down.
2. If there is not a leak in the air bags or lines where to start on the valve block. I am thinking about the dump valve for the passenger side.
PS: The only leak I can find is at the input to the pressure regulator for the leveling system. I see bubbling at the push to connect fitting screwed into that regulator. I plan to fix that leak but that is not my problem.
Looking for guidance as to what to expect and problems others have found. I have read much of the related posts on the forum. I might have missed something. Someone may have information that was never posted.
Thank you. T.O.M.
PS: As an Engineer I have worked on Seismic vibrator trucks. We put 60,000 lb vibrators on Mac truck tractors and later custom designed chassis. Our mantra was "Keep it Simple Stupid" My observation is that was unheard of in the RV business. :-{
I checked all the air connections related to the front airbags. No leaks found. Used soap.
The only leak I know of is the connection to the pressure regulator. This line could drain the front air tank. I do not see how that would cause the front air bags to deflate by its self. Still plenty of air in the front tank after the front end drops. I plan to fix that leak just because It might get worse and cause brake problems.
Are you sure one is leaking down and it's not an opposite side/corner leaking UP? Based on your description, I might suspect the driver rear raise solenoid valve on the rear sixpack.
We had very similar behavior years ago - the solenoid valve seat on a raise solenoid was leaking through, causing one corner to raise. That caused the coach to relevel every 1/2 hour to hour.
It took measuring the distance between the airbag plates on all airbags every 15 minutes for a few hours to discover the issue. The height of the bags on the corner that had the internal leak through on the raise solenoid INCREASED without the aux compressor running.
Our leveling system problem (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12423.msg70577#msg70577)
What we found:
HWH Leveling Valve (http://www.irvblog.com/foretravel%20projects/HWH-Leveling-Valve/)
A replacement solenoid valve (or a rebuilt one) is a good part to carry.
Have you also checked the sixpacks for leaks? A common leak point is the o-rings that seal the solenoid valves to the six pack manifold block.
Encantotom sells rebuild kits for the six packs that include all o-rings and new valve seats.
When in level mode the front passenger goes down. Rear does not change. When HWH wakes up it dumps the air and re-levels.
In travel mode in storage the front drips in about 30 minutes. If left long enough the front bags are completely deflated. Can push the sides in with fingers. The passenger side goes down first. The coach leans and causes the driver rear to rise slightly.
I suspect the problem is one of the six pack valves. I am not sure I can work in the six pack without disconnecting all the lines. It is tucked up under the coach and the air line routing sucks.
My air bags stay up for days. In over a week they will be down some.
I raised the coach for leak checking 30 minutes to one hour ago Used the All raised button Then killed engine.. Put the 12 inch safety stands in place. Just checked the rear has about an inch distance between the stands and the frame. Does not look if it went down at all.
The passenger front is down tight on the stands. Driver front has about 1/8 inch clearance between the frame and stands. Front going down passenger side faster than driver side.
Old Guy -
That is what I expected to be the norm. I purchased this coach a couple of months ago and that has never been the case for me.
I checked all the air line connections.
Put soap around the base of the six pack solenoids. Could not see leak but hard to see with manifold installed.
Another potential problem. When I started the engine to build air and raise the coach. Engine oil pressure showed 80 PSI. :help:
It is a little cold today. 50 degrees or so.
That's normal to have high oil pressure at startup. It will drop as the engine warms up.
Michelle-
They were available in 20012. Still available? Newell forum?
Need to get part numbers off my 2006 valve body to see if correct parts?
I do not want to tear the six pack down without at least an o-ring kit.
As of last week Rebuild-replace 6 packs (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=41441.msg413143#msg413143)
The topic linked explains how to contact Tom.
I recently experienced a similar issue and found that the auxiliary air chuck had a leak and some how affected the leveling of my coach. Perhaps your leak is not in the level system but an accessory to it. Just a thought. I wouldn't think it would be the case, but it solved my issue.
This has nothing to do with the air bags, they are above my pay grade, finding leaks ok but these forum members are genius when it comes to HWH.
HOWEVER: you mentioned the compressor pulls from the start battery system, you should add a Trick-L-Charge which will keep the engine/start batteries charged when the house batteries are charging.
Mega TRIK-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer (http://www.lslproducts.net/TLSPage.html)
PS: you should fill in by "your signature" with your coach information, it helps people when they are trying to diagnose an issue.
Good luck
David
I have been working on that. I have a maintainer charger. It is a little small for my starting bank. 3x AGM batteries. The one you mentioned says appropriate for 2 batteries.
Mine will time out when charging. It assumes max battery size is 260 amp hours. My bank is 300.
I upgraded my profile to include the coach description and build number.
There appears to be a small amount of moisture in the leveling system.
Opening the drain valves on the front air tank does not show any moisture.
The dryer on the aux 12v pump is beginning to need replacing looking at the color of the desiccant.
The one valve I examined on the six pack showed a small amount of moisture. Valve seats and seals look good. I am trying to get a kit before I tear anything else down. Is this to be expected even with good driers? Remember the aux pump started once an hour / 30 minutes for three days due to the air leak in the front air bags.
That desiccant (for the aux compressor) will change color fairly quickly, especially if you are in a humid environment.
You can search the forum on how to regenerate it (bake) so you don't need to throw it out.
FOT used to sell it for a ridiculous amount of $ (it was $40 10 years ago :o ). You can buy cans of the desiccant and make your own pouches. I don't know if the links in my old post are still good, but you get the drift
Desiccant option for the HWH system (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12784.0)
In LINE Desiccant AIR Dryer for Compressed AIR Great for Pneumatic Tools... (https://www.amazon.com/Desiccant-Dryer-Compressed-Pneumatic-Plasma/dp/B07BR45HRK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=DQYQ13MKFNI1&dchild=1&keywords=desiccant%2Bair%2Bdryer%2B1%2F2%2Bnpt&qid=1610605487&sprefix=Desiccant%2B1%2F2%2Bdr%2Caps%2C211&sr=8-5&th=1)
Wisesorb Premium Quality Desiccant Bulk Material (Indicating Silica Gel... (https://www.amazon.com/Wisesorb-Reusable-Indicating-Desiccant-Beads-Rechargeable/dp/B07F6H6PST/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1Q5L0OSFANY72&dchild=1&keywords=desiccant+bulk&qid=1610605758&sprefix=Desiccant+bulk%2Ctools%2C199&sr=8-4)
Great idea. I like
Scott
I purchased some desiccant off Amazon. Due here this afternoon.
PS: I have not found the source of my leak for certain. I have checked all the airline fittings for leaks with soap and made sure all the compression fittings are tight. "I was very cautious not to over tighten."
I dissembled and inspected all the valves on the side that has the worse leak. No smoking gun. O rings need replacing but no obvious leaks. One of the rubber seals on one plunger was worn more than the others. The dump solenoid. That might me the problem but It looks like it should seal to me. Valve seats look perfect. Put it back to together raised the coach leak tested again. No obvious leaks. Leaked down the same way as before. Used a mechanics stethoscope to listen for leaks. Nothing obvious.
I have requested the rebuild kits from TOM McCloud. I will rebuild the front six-pack and see where I am at.
Cannot detect any leaks around the pressure switches.
If the six packs do not fix it I may have to take the trek to MOT. Hope not I need tires this year so I do not want to spend a whole lot of money at this time but may have no choice.
Air loss is about then same raised state or travel mode. The common thing is the dump valve.
PS: I noticed the driver travel valve had been replaced some time ago. The level valve should be isolated when the coach is raised?? I have not checked it because the leak down occurs in the raised condition.
Might take a read of this thread (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=35558.msg333113#msg333113) about pulling the 6 pack and bench testing to find leaks.
Good luck finding and getting it repaired.
Received the Desiccant I ordered. I removed the dryer bowl. The tube was stuck so I removed the nut and removed it separately.
What I found is a whole lot of corrosion. The screen at the bottom of the tube is plugged. There was an O-ring at the bottom of the tube that was way to big do be of any use. Probably deteriorated.
The screen at the top of the Drier was corroded and almost plugged.
Looks like a new drier is in the near future. I cleaned it up the best I could put new Discussant in and reinstalled the bowl. Enabled the air pump and took a while but aired up to 85lb and shut off. I will order a new drier and install it when received.
Looked like photos of dryers off older coaches in the forum. The bowel was in fine shape no cracks.
I have had good luck on several rvs with purchasing remanufactured units from the manufacturer, thru Napa Auto Parts.
He's referring to the HWH desiccant bowl, not the main engine air dryer.... NAPA's not going to have the HWH bowls...
Ordered one from ZORO on ebay. About $50 for a new one with shipping. Will be here in a little over a week. I have to old one to use before then. It is pretty stopped up but not completely. Has new desiccant so it should be fine until I get the new one. Should be able to rework the old one as a emergency spare. Need to fabricate a new bottom screen.
Raised and dumped air two times using the aux pump. Took a while to raise of course the dryer is pretty clogged.
After two cycles looked at the desiccant. The desiccant was blue at the top. A little less than 1/2. Then orange and very bottom basically white.
Tying to get dry air in the system.
The 40 year shop hygrometer read a little over 60% weather forecast says 75%
Is this what you would expect? How often do you guys change the desiccant?
The air dryer on the aux compressor is not at all sufficient for frequent raise cycles of the coach. The aux compressor system's purpose is to keep the system topped off and relevel, and service the slide bladders, not to raise the entire coach from a full dump.
You should use the main engine for that - it has a much larger air dryer.
That explains why the dryer was not effective. The last trip the coach was releveling every hour or so due to the leak in the front air bag systems. The pump ran quite a while. I did start the main engine a few times to recharge the main tanks.
Received my new air dryer for the Auxiliary pump. Today I installed it and decided to test for leaks. I started the engine and built up pressure and then killed the engine. Dumped air and turned the key on. The HWH was dead!!!! :help:
Shut down and went back down. Two of the HWH electrical modules are mounted above the air driers. That is where I started. There are a number of connectors on the bottom of the modules. One looked a little crooked. I pushed on it and it clicked. Went back in turned the key and the HWH fired up. :dance:
Those connectors are not very robust and are a disaster waiting to happen. In my job designing oil exploration equipment we learned not to use that JUNK. We used military grade connectors.
So if your HWH dies try to seat those connectors. If they look even a little suspicious seat the &$%**& things. The connectors are the least reliable part of the system and there are a whole shit pot of them. Excuse my French. :coffee:
PS: the new drier is sound no leaks.
Got the six pack kits from Tom today. What oring greece to use? Petroleum jelly or something else.
Others recommend Super Lube (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Super-Lube-3-oz-Tube-Synthetic-Grease-with-Syncolon-PTFE-21030/202932687?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_Brand-G-Multi-NA-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-Catchall_PLA-71700000014585962-58700001236285396-92700010802552517&gclid=CjwKCAiA6aSABhApEiwA6Cbm__00TVOk1zkiE9OSjkgtXku75vb-cMawP19fY7gvmQCza3qSF4jPnBoCl1oQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds). I did not have any, so used silicone paste (https://www.amazon.com/3M-08946-Clear-Silicone-Paste/dp/B005RNEH5O/ref=asc_df_B005RNEH5O/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312453079106&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6337464585718130646&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026544&hvtargid=pla-479376653204&psc=1) because I had it already.
I prefer Dow Corning 111 compound. What ever you do don't use Petroleum jelly
Mike
Yes I think there was some of that "petroleum jelly" was used in the past. Great gobs of it.
A little of that goes a long way. This is one more case that "if a little will do a little good then a lot will do a lot of good" does not apply.
Mike
Received my six-pack rebuild kits from TOM Thursday. Today I got time to pull the six pack clean it up and managed to rebuild two air valves. Had to stop due to company coming over. Will likely be Monday before I get time to finish the project.
I have a question. I disconnected the air lines. Any one familiar with the fittings used in these coaches. The support tubs seem to be pressed into the fittings. When the nut is tightened the brass feral is compressed biting into the tube. The lines are pretty short. Loosen the nut and it is difficult to remove the plastic air tubing. The support tube came out with a couple of lines and some of the tubes that stayed in the fitting was pulled sideways.
How to reassemble this type of fitting. Do I put the support tube inside the air line and then re-tighten the fitting or install the support tube in the fitting and slide the air line on then tighten the tube?
New fittings would create a huge problem. Most of the lines would have to be rerun.
Anyone know the fitting manufacture so I can look at their recommendations.
Parker is a major manufacturer of brass compression fittings. I would assume that they recommend not reusing their fittings for high pressure applications but our pneumatic systems can be considered low pressure.
The ferrules and inserts will be deformed to some extent when seated into the female fitting. Replacing the ferrule and insert while reusing the nut and fitting should result in an excellent seal. That said I have reused the existing fitting assemblies with good results.
Cutting the tubing behind the ferrule and installing a new ferrule and insert is not always easy as tight working space can make this difficult.
Replacing just the insert would help in being able to easily seat the ferrule in the fitting before tightening the nut.
In the end the decision is yours.
Steve
Ok the Six Pack is rebuilt and installed.
Raised the coach hit emergency stop on the HWH and turned the ignition key off.
It has been over three hours and the air bags are completely inflated. If still looking good in the morning I will exercise travel mode and leveling to check those modes and see if any leaks develop after using the system. I really did not see any real problem with the plungers the dump valves were dimpled more than the others. Maybe that was enough for them not to seal.
The O rings at the base of the solenoids were worn. At least three of the valves were worked on and one was replaced since it does not match the others. The new one does not have a brass base. I saw three different type of greases used on the O rings and two places someone though more was better. I do not know who has been working on these but they did not know what they were doing. Way too much grease.
I used the Super Lube. I did not use the Dow 111 because I would of had to travel 50 miles to purchase a tube. Super Lube was the other recommendation and it was available at Ace Hardware 5 miles from my farm. The DOW grease is what we used on o-rings on the Seismic Vibrator trucks I helped design. The Super LUBE appears to be similar to the DOW 111 Moly Coat
I have some photos. Much the same already on this site. I will probably post the photos with a short description later.
Summery of work done.
1. Checked air bags, six pack manifold and all air line connection for air leaks. I found no obvious leaks.
2. Replaced the air drier on the 12v Aux air pump.
3. I obtained some desiccant and packaged portions to take with me when traveling so I can replace the desiccant when it is wet.
4. Used TOMS rebuild kit to rebuild the valves and new plungers. Some of the o-rings looked pretty bad.
5. Removed, inspected and cleaned the o-rings on the two internal check valves in the manifold. I found some white powder on the o-rings.
Note: Some of the support tubes came out of the compression fittings when I removed the air lines. I reinstalled the support into the fittings and carefully hand pressed the air lines back in place. I used a small block of wood to tap the support tubes in place. Then leaving the jam nuts and ferrules in place. I hand pressed the tubes over the support tubes. Then I tightened the jam nuts on the fittings.
I used denatured Alcohol to clean the manifold and air valves. Then used compressed air to remove lint and dry the manifold and valve parts before assembling the valves. The Alcohol we used to clean parts on Siberia was not denatured. Good for many more uses. Helped you sleep at night.
Thank all of you that made suggestions and informed me of the availability of the rebuild kits.
Thank you TOM McCloud for making these parts available to us all. Great price and great quality.
I will upload a few photos later there are many on the forum. My manifold setup is a little different than some of the others.
I made one mistake. I swapped the right air bag air line and the right travel height valve air line. One right air bag refused to inflate and there was air blowing out of the travel height valve. I scratched my head for a few minutes before I crawled back under the coach and found the mistake. The air lines were labeled correctly but I had a brain fart and swapped the two lines. :o
Thank you so much for this comprehensive write up, troubleshooting and solution. This forum is awesome!
Camping at lake Texana park near Edna Tx. Aux air compressor ran only ran one time in four days. Coach did not relevel the whole time.
Quite a difference from the last trip. Happy with the fix.
Spotted a Foretravel unihome in the park.
Some photos from the rebuild
Six Pack Edge View.
Bolt on the Right is the plug covering the check valve.
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4776
Six Pack top view.
The valve with the black base is the Left Travel valve
The right Travel valve is just below .
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4777
Valve Side of the six pack.
See the black marks from the decomposed O rings.
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4778
Valves and plungers. Unfortunately I swapped left and right.
The plunger seal on the middle left is the Right Dump valve. I suspect this was the problem. There was more wear on the seal.
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4779
Air Line side of the six pack with the two pressure switches.
Right bag connection goes to the left air bag etc.
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4780
Six pack after cleaning with denatured Alcohol. First valve had been rebuilt in installed. Installed valve is the Right Dump valve.
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=4781
Hopefully this will be some use.