Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: SteveB on January 28, 2021, 02:26:43 pm
I had an issue with getting my safety stands installed on the right front. Lacked about a 1/4" of clearance. I had previously replaced the pressure regulator on the supply line to the front 6- pack manifold and set the presssure to about 60psi. I bumped the setting on the regulator to 90psi and that solved the problem with the front of the coach raising high enough to install the safety stands. My air schematic does not give a value for the front pressure regulator so I just went with what works. You might want to check this out if you have a regulator on your front manifold. Other than that I would have to agree with Chuck. If it worked before it is likely something that you did that caused it not to work🥺
Steve
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on January 28, 2021, 02:28:33 pm
Steve makes a excellent suggestion - give it a try.
Normal pressure for that regulator is 60, but a little higher won't hurt a thing.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: DayDreamer on January 28, 2021, 02:28:53 pm
I noticed the left center light on the HWH panel is lit if raising or lowering
Wondering if put solenoids back in wrong place
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: bbeane on January 28, 2021, 02:57:10 pm
Try raising the side using the side button. Mine will do that every now and then if I've had it on the safety blocks and the air dumped.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on January 28, 2021, 03:31:49 pm
Also make sure you have full pressure in your air system when trying to raise coach all the way up.
When I raise our coach to insert safety stands, I start with the air system at compressor cut-out pressure (about 130 psi on our coach). I push and hold the "raise" button, watch the air pressure gauges drop, air compressor kicks on, then I wait until the air system gets back up to 130 before I release the button. At that point, the coach is as high as it is ever gonna get, and I will usually have at least 1" of clearance when I insert my 11" safety stands.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: SteveB on January 28, 2021, 04:13:48 pm
All said it is really easy to get a wire connector or an air hose in the wrong place. At least for me it has been easy! And probably the easiest thing to fix relating to the air valves. I would certainly start by double checking all of the connections. Steve
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: DayDreamer on January 28, 2021, 06:25:47 pm
Still not working. Tried all of suggestion, but needed to step away from it and tackle again fresh in case I am overlooking something out of frustration. Air connections all match up to drawing and numbers on the air lines.
Peeled back the wire covers and matched up all of the wire labels and they seem to be correct too, but think I will ask the DW to push the up/down buttons while I check the solenoids. What is an effective and safe way to do that? Thinking I can remove all of them then use a screwdriver to find the energized solenoids as she pushes the buttons on the HWH pad.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on January 28, 2021, 06:55:34 pm
Thinking I can remove all of them then use a screwdriver to find the energized solenoids as she pushes the buttons on the HWH pad.
You don't need to remove them from the 6-pack as long as you have your safety stands in place.
Just have her push the button and do the screwdriver test, or just touch the solenoid with your fingers. You should feel the armature move and probably hear it also.....depending on ambient noise level and how much hearing you have left.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: tmehrkam on January 28, 2021, 07:41:06 pm
Does the driver front go flat if you walk away for a while? If so then you have a leak somewhere.
Check the two driver front air bags. Does it seem they are aired up the same. Maybe one is not getting any air or there is a leak on one air bag.
Mine is a 2006 so there are a number of differences. If you have a leak you might have damaged an O-ring some how. Or the air line connector has a bad leak. I rebuilt mine because passenger front would leak down. Took 30 minutes of an Hour. The pump would have to come on and raise the front. Over night without the pump it would leak completely down.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: tmehrkam on January 28, 2021, 08:11:02 pm
Trace each ladled solenoid wire to the manifold and see if it is in the eight location on the manifold. In my 2006 everything but the air lines were labeled on the manifold. It is real easy to get confused when working under the coach.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Mark D on January 28, 2021, 08:50:05 pm
I've had several solenoids stop working. I diagnosed by using a DC ammeter clamp and the wife pressing buttons. Both my tag axle dump solenoids weren't working which I think is okay since they are connected through the rear dump solenoids so are redundant. I started having real problems when I couldn't dump the front left bag. Had to put it into travel mode to get things level (travel mode uses a different solenoid).
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: folivier on January 29, 2021, 09:20:33 am
Is there enough room to put a bottle jack next to the safety block to raise it enough to remove it? Proper size jack of course.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on January 29, 2021, 09:28:21 am
I would think it better to leave the safety stands in place until the problem is solved...unless emergency need to move coach, of course.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: DayDreamer on January 29, 2021, 09:55:42 am
Currently no pressing need to move the coach, so I will leave the safety blocks in place so I can work under the coach. Hoping to get back to the coach this afternoon with the DW to push the buttons and do further diagnostics.....hopefully find and resolve the issue. I appreciate all of the comments. Thanks Forum!
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Michelle on January 29, 2021, 11:48:13 am
Random thought here, especially for Mike R., what would happen if the raise and travel solenoids (or their electrical connections) were accidentally swapped on the manifold block? Would the ride height valve then limit the raise and cause this symptom?
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: encantotom on January 29, 2021, 01:40:34 pm
daydreamer,
i sent you my phone number if you would like to chat about it. (via message)
tom mccloud
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Pamela & Mike on January 29, 2021, 03:04:02 pm
what would happen if the raise and travel solenoids (or their electrical connections) were accidentally swapped on the manifold block? Would the ride height valve then limit the raise and cause this symptom?
I have never tried this to see what would happen either on purpose or by accident. So I need to mull this around as you have only one ride height valve in the front and both ride height solenoids are connected to it. Now if it was on the rear I think that would sure be a possibility. The lights are what is puzzling me also.
Mike
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Michelle on January 29, 2021, 03:44:36 pm
I have never tried this to see what would happen either on purpose or by accident. So I need to mull this around as you have only one ride height valve in the front and both ride height solenoids are connected to it.
If the ride height solenoid and raise solenoid for the driver front were swapped (or their electrical leads swapped) (but passenger was correct), what might it do? Is there a situation where the "brain" is trying to raise, could the ride height valve be accidentally inserted in the equation to limit the raise height?
I guess one could try putting the coach in Travel mode and see if that driver front continued to rise all the way up, while the passenger side only went to ride height...
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Pamela & Mike on January 29, 2021, 04:47:06 pm
If the ride height solenoid and raise solenoid for the driver front were swapped (or their electrical leads swapped) (but passenger was correct), what might it do?
After some thought this could happen and the ride height valve would be venting on one side while the other is staying up. If he was raising from the drivers seat by him self then by the time he got out and under the coach the air would all be vented on the one side and there would be no noticeable air venting. Now that I have thought about this it most likely has an air line, or electric cable swapped as it was working correctly before he started the rebuild, just had a gradual leak down. The solenoids will work in any place as they are all the same on this year coach only the numbers on the cable are different.
Mike
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: DayDreamer on January 29, 2021, 04:58:39 pm
After some thought this could happen and the ride height valve would be venting on one side while the other is staying up. If he was raising from the drivers seat by him self then by the time he got out and under the coach the air would all be vented on the one side and there would be no noticeable air venting. Now that I have thought about this it most likely has a valve, air line, or electric cable swapped as it was working correctly before he started the rebuild, just had a gradual leak down.
Mike
Will not make it to the coach today to confirm, but I will double check all connections this weekend. I matched up the air lines based on the line numbers compared to the drawing and all are where they are supposed to be. I will double check the electric connections too.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Pamela & Mike on January 29, 2021, 05:12:04 pm
Other thought that could cause something strange like this with all the hoses and electric connection in the proper place. Did you close off/tape off the air lines while you were working on the 6 pack? If not you could have a bug/mud dauber that crawled up in one air line while it was loose and now his dead remains is stopping up the works.
Pull the cover off the HWH control box and check all the little fuses that you will find in there. Seems like fuse #9 is the one that controls left front raise.
Mike
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on January 29, 2021, 05:39:56 pm
The strange thing is that the OP reports his driver side front bags do inflate partially, but not quite enough to insert the safety stand. This would seem to indicate that air pressure is being directed down the correct air line going to the bags, but is somehow being reduced in pressure and/or volume compared to the other corners.
This is a very curious symptom to correlate with any possible case of electrical mis-wiring or mis-routing of air lines.
I was trying to think of a purely mechanical problem that would cause this behavior, like perhaps a dead cat body stuck between the suspension members and preventing full air bag extension. I suppose somebody would have noticed that...
I am out of ideas, and will be very curious to learn the eventual solution to this mystery.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Pamela & Mike on January 29, 2021, 06:23:54 pm
I was trying to think of a purely mechanical problem that would cause this behavior, like perhaps a dead cat body stuck between the suspension members and preventing full air bag extension.
Chuck,
You bring up a good point if mechanical it could be one of the trailing are mount bolts that is locked up on the bushing that side. This would cause a loss of travel.
Mike
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: John Duld on January 29, 2021, 07:23:11 pm
Could it be the check valve in the HWH manifold at the air inlet?
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: MisterEd on January 29, 2021, 07:32:31 pm
If the above suggestions fail to remedy your issue, and this may sound redundant but, double check that you removed ALL the safety stands from the right side suspension, front and rear. If a right side stand was forgotten it could cause the, normally closed, right front pressure switch to send a ground signal to the controller, due to low pressure on that side (below 10PSI). That would inhibit further lowering of the right AND further raising of the left.
Greg
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: red tractor on January 29, 2021, 08:15:45 pm
Like John said it could be the check valve. I had one do that.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: DayDreamer on January 31, 2021, 08:07:20 pm
I believed I have uncovered the problem with the left side air springs only partially inflating after installing the re-build kit.
Short answer, raise plunger was not opening because the armature mechanic (namely me) put two springs on the left side raise plunger.
The rest of the story. Messed with if for hours. With the DW pushing the button, the end of the plunger was magnetic, so seemed everything was okay. Ended up removing the entire six pack and bring back home to test. Using a 12v battery and short wire leads, energized each coil to ensure each one worked. Got an audible click from the plunger retracting on all but the left raise. Swapped solenoids with known good one and same issue. Removed plunger and all seemed to move freely. Put old plunger back in and it worked. Took old plunger out and compared. Noticed spring looked different and thought maybe the kit accidentally included an odd, stronger spring. Then I recalled when I was installing them, I was missing one spring. Assuming Tom mis-counted, I put the old spring back on one of the plungers. However, two of the springs were coiled together into one nice, neat little package. An astute person might have noticed but I did not and installed the "double strength" spring.
Removed one of the springs and re-installed the new plunger. Will not have time to re-install the six pack until next week, but pretty confident the left side raise problem is resolved. Might have an issue with the right side dump, but will report back after I can re-install.
Thanks again everyone for your assistance and hope others will learn from my half-witted mistake.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Michelle on January 31, 2021, 08:21:05 pm
I believed I have uncovered the problem with the left side air springs only partially inflating after installing the re-build kit.
Short answer, raise plunger was not opening because the armature mechanic (namely me) put two springs on the left side raise plunger.
Thanks again everyone for your assistance and hope others will learn from my half-witted mistake.
I believe you meant to say "I learned something about spring strength and wanted to share". Kudos for finding the problem and more importantly sharing the solution ^.^d
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: DayDreamer on January 31, 2021, 08:45:15 pm
I believe you meant to say "I learned something about spring strength and wanted to share". Kudos for finding the problem and more importantly sharing the solution ^.^d
That is exactly what I meant to say! Sounds so much more positive.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on January 31, 2021, 09:50:08 pm
Excellent trouble shooting result. Perseverance pays off! ^.^d
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: encantotom on February 01, 2021, 11:31:24 am
i am glad it turned out. i have never had that happen so it never even occurred to me to check for that. two springs for sure will not allow it to retract.
as for missing a spring, i dont think so far i have had any parts missing from the kits. my wife and i very very carefully put the parts in sets of six on the kitchen table and she recounts them as she wraps them up in toilet paper. (gee good thing we had enough toilet paper through the panedemic, eh). the springs come in one sack and they do them by weight, not by count, so i often have 1 extra spring in a batch so that does not raise any red flags.
we look at each plunger as we package them up to make sure they look fine. not a very engineering oriented approach with incoming inspections, but just a look see to make sure they look fine.
darlene and i really try hard to make sure there are no problems. if there ever are, we will do whatever we can on our side to replace anything of our kits that are amiss. you guys that buy two or more kits will notice that i include a spanner wrench for each kit. i could give just one per box i ship, but if you order two kits, you get two wrenches.
i approach this like how i would like it if i was getting these myself. (i have put them in the two newells i have had since i started doing them)
i am no expert for sure, but i have done a number of kit installs and talked through them with alot more folks. so i am almost always avail to talk to if there are questions and or issues. i give my phone number most of the time and for sure my email. if anyone ever wants to talk, you can pm me and i will send you my phone number.
i am just another coach geek that plays around with things. not a business. my entire operation is out of a small box and a place to put a handful of kits that are boxed up ready to go.
as always, if anyone is in the phoenix area, please stop by and visit. there is room for you to hook up out back next to my shop as i have two full 50a hookups. during the nice winter months i often have someone stopping by.
happy monday
tom
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on February 01, 2021, 12:11:35 pm
...as for missing a spring, I don't think so far I have had any parts missing from the kits.
Tom is WAY too modest. Based on my dealings with him, I firmly believe he is a stickler for detail and a born perfectionist. I am sure those traits always served him well in his professional career, and in the way he conducts his personal life. Just my O-pinion.
Example: One time a while back I ordered 126 of his HWH solenoid rebuild kits. They all came in one big box. After I finally finished sorting through all the hundreds of O-rings, springs and plungers, it turns out there was not one single item missing. The parts count was perfect.
Like I said: he's a stickler.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: DayDreamer on February 01, 2021, 12:27:45 pm
Tom you are Darlene are doing a fantastic job and we all really appreciate your dedication to fellow coach owners by helping us keep our HWH systems maintained. If we have another toilet paper shortage, I will order a couple kits. LOL. The kits did come well packed to prevent any damage and was complete with all parts. Also really appreciate you including the spanner is it makes the task a lot easier.
Looking forward to getting the six pack re-installed and seeing how long the coach will hold level.
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: tmehrkam on February 01, 2021, 12:44:45 pm
I believed I have uncovered the problem with the left side air springs only partially inflating after installing the re-build kit.
Short answer, raise plunger was not opening because the armature mechanic (namely me) put two springs on the left side raise plunger.
The rest of the story. Messed with if for hours. With the DW pushing the button, the end of the plunger was magnetic, so seemed everything was okay. Ended up removing the entire six pack and bring back home to test. Using a 12v battery and short wire leads, energized each coil to ensure each one worked. Got an audible click from the plunger retracting on all but the left raise. Swapped solenoids with known good one and same issue. Removed plunger and all seemed to move freely. Put old plunger back in and it worked. Took old plunger out and compared. Noticed spring looked different and thought maybe the kit accidentally included an odd, stronger spring. Then I recalled when I was installing them, I was missing one spring. Assuming Tom mis-counted, I put the old spring back on one of the plungers. However, two of the springs were coiled together into one nice, neat little package. An astute person might have noticed but I did not and installed the "double strength" spring.
Removed one of the springs and re-installed the new plunger. Will not have time to re-install the six pack until next week, but pretty confident the left side raise problem is resolved. Might have an issue with the right side dump, but will report back after I can re-install.
Thanks again everyone for your assistance and hope others will learn from my half-witted mistake.
Yes those springs like to nest together. You are allowed one mistake per six pack. At least my story. :-}
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: folivier on February 01, 2021, 04:04:48 pm
Tom is modest, and his little shop in the desert is a sight to see. He does get lonely out there with the coyotes and the chickens!
Title: Re: Six pack left front not raising
Post by: kimosabe99 on February 09, 2021, 01:01:22 pm
I used one of Tom's kits and refurbished my front six pack on Saturday. (On my rig its actually a three pack) Everything went well with one exception. When I pulled out the check valve, the very fine coil spring went flying through the air and was lost forever. I did get a quick look at it before it leaped to freedom which was fortunate. I was able to find a suitable replacement at ACE hardware along with O rings for the check valve and the cap.
Another shout out to Chuck Avery for publishing many tips and photos about repairing six packs.
Anyhow, keep your fingers on that spring when removing check valve. :))