Well I got myself into a bit of a pickle on FR525 south of Sedona. Long story short is that I'm in a dispersed camping area And my front driver's tire is rubbing on the rear bag and the front passenger tire is rubbing on the front bag. I don't see any bent or broken bolts on the drag links and the axle is seemingly straight when I measure it at both ends from the rest of the coach. I do see what I am pretty sure is a blown bushing on one of the drag links. I have a HDT repair company on their way out but fear we'll end up towing it out of here. Since I can't straighten the front wheels, I imagine we are going to have to drop the drive shaft and tow it with the rear wheels on the ground. If it comes to that, is that the correct way to tow it?
Thanks, as usual.
Better to pull the drive shafts and use covers to retain the lube oil in the rear axle.
Yes, this assumes you can't identify what is broken and repair where it sits-- would sure be worth spending some $$ on a truck suspension guy interested in moonlighting. Really NOT that complex!
If you have a question, post picture and we can help.
A big rig tow truck driver will know how to do it. The sled slides under the front axle and lifts the whole thing up. Mine was towed with driveshaft disconnected.
Thank you. I had to come over some twisty/uneven ground getting in and it was enough to trick the front ride height valve into dumping all the air. That then loaded a bunch of eight on the front drivers tire and brought the passenger side tire up off the ground by an inch.
I crawled around all morning looking for something bent or broken and the most I found was bad bushings on a drag link. I am attaching photos of each end of the drag link.
As always, ONLY crawl under if your safety stands are in place.
Are you at the correct ride height? Pretty easy for the ride height linkage to come loose.
I've been getting very familiar with my safety stands lately :))
I did not measure for the 8" in travel mode but when they're bottomed out or fully extended, I get the same issue
Photos of bushings hopefully attached?
Ya, they need to be replaced, BUT sure don't look like they have allowed the link to be displaced enough to substantially relocate the axle.
That is what you are looking for-- not just cracked bushing, but DISPLACEMENT that allows excessive movement.
My untrained eye couldn't find anything. Nothing looked bent, bolts and nuts looked flush, and all the welds looked good without any cracking. I'm hoping this guy that's coming out will have a keener eye.
The bushing is not the problem .
Move the bus to flatter ground and look around some more .
Make sure your front ride height valve linkage hasn't flipped 180* and isn't controlling the ride height correctly.
Mine did that after jacking up the front too high while in the shop.
Have you tried rolling the coach over with the HWH panel in manual. Left to right and back? Sounds like you got something hung up bound up, can't imagine having front tire a inch off the ground unless it's really being twisted bad
Scott
If the front tires are pointed straight and rubbing on the air springs it's possible the axle has moved relative to the suspension. Check where the axle is bolted to the suspension; 4 large bolts/nuts on both sides.
For a short tow in the camping area you shouldn't need to disconnect the driveline. If you need to tow it any distance, pull both axle shafts and put hub covers on. Brett mentioned this in the first reply, except he said pull the drive shafts. I think he meant to say pull the axle shafts.
At this point, you probably don't need to hear this but, try to avoid driving on heavily twisting terrain. I've been in a similar situation where had I continued forward, probably would have had a result similar to yours. I backed out of it.
I hope everything works out well for you.
Greg
Depending upon the situation, you might try raising the LR ride height, and/or lowering the RR ride height enough to get the RF back on the ground and the LF off of the wheel well; if that's the case. If you do this, mark the ride height rods before hand so you can easily put it back to where it was.
Well his eyes (and a straight ended) found it. All four drag links are bent.
Google "drag link"
I think you are jumping to a conclusion.
Looking at your two pics I see misalignment due to bushing wear, no bending of either suspension component. Get your coach to even ground and look again.
Tim
I can't conceive of how that could happen unless a PO went full "Wile E Coyote" off road with the coach. Fingers crossed it's not that serious Elliot.
Welp, this'll be a fun learning experience to bestow on the next generation of Foretravelers someday.
After talking with the repair guy that came out today, insurance, an RV body shop, and Keith R. I think it might be repairable. The repair guy today thinks it's probably totaled. Time will tell. I have a speciality wrecker/accident recovery company coming out tomorrow morning to get it out and tow it down to Phoenix and then I'll have a frame specialist get a laser on the frame and see just how bad it is.
I've been secretly waiting for a chance to experience something that hasn't been documented here on the forum. Lol.
I'm still in the dark about what happened to your coach to go from normal to your present situation. Did you go off the road? What exactly happened?
The bent parts in question are just tubing. Easily made, welded, etc. and steel is cheap.
Pierce
If it can be built it can be repaired. If, by "A frames", you're referring the parts where the trailing arms attach to the suspension, so long as the trailing arm mounts on the frame aren't messed up too bad, the front suspension could be pulled and likely repaired without too much trouble; heavy lifting, but pretty straight forward work. If the windshield didn't move in the rubber the chassis is probably not twisted.
Part of what makes these coaches so darned good on the road also makes them less off road worthy. 8 inches of twist in the "roadway" between the axles is about the limit, since only the front suspension has real torsional compliance. Even 8 inches of twist puts torsional load on the front trailing arms and their mounting points. That's why the trailing (and the Panhard) arm bushings have to be made of something elastic. If the trailing arm bushing were not compliant something else have to give. The rear, since it has a height control valve on each side, will only allow brief "roll" before the valves inflate/deflate the springs to maintain ride height, so the rear suspension travel shouldn't be included in factoring how much roadway twist the suspension can accommodate.
Sorry to hear of your woes, but looking forward to your post that you're back on the road.
Greg
So we did crack the windshield(s) in three different places for what that's worth.
I'll follow up tomorrow with more details. I'm currently making significant head way on taking the edge off.
Yes, I agree. I don't think "drag link" is the proper term...if I understand the discussion so far.
I think "torque tube" or "trailing arm" is more accurate. See thread linked below:
Trailing Arm Service (aka: Torque Tubes) (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=26720)
Was scared to check back and see how things were going. Seems worse than I imagined. I guess you will be inducted into the Foretravel off-road group? Greg is spot on in regards to limited articulation. Rear is basically is locked to chassis with only what is available with the front end. Eight inches out of level front to rear is easily reached and once you said that a front tire was off the ground this was exceeded painfully. I do agree that all bent items can be repaired.
Sorry to see anyone have to go threw this painful lesson.
Scott
Radius rod if the axle is in front of the pivot point, trailing arm if it's behind.
If the articulated axle truck is damaged that can be removed fairly easily and repaired. If the main chassis framework is also damaged this will be more difficult to repair. This is a Foretravel OEM chassis, maybe call Foretravel for advice...they have probably seen this before.
So at your cost I have learned a valuable lesson. As these coaches were designed primarily to remain on relative flat surfaces and the ride height valves are continuously adjusting to compensate any abnormalities they are exposed to. This is counterproductive when on less that groomed surfaces that my coach is regularly exposed to. I will be installing a shut off switch to stop the travel height circuit when on less than groomed condition. This may only add a small amount of additional articulation, however it will stop the ride height circuit from attempting to correct and add endless amounts of excessive pressure to compensate to the chassis crisis induced by the operator. Front axle travel limit warning system seems like a no brainer for me also too. This would alert operator limits are at maximum :headwall: Basically you loaded the gun and the ride height circuit did its job and pulled the trigger. Still perplexed that you actually had a front tire off the ground. Hope all is resolved.
Scott
We take ours off road frequently driving to undeveloped campgrounds in the Sierras or down sandy canyons to the beach in Baja and mainland Mexico. We would have never bought the coach if we though it would be damaged by doing this and it never has been.
Pierce
I still don't understand what exactly caused the problem. Elliott's explanation doesn't make sense to me:
"I had to come over some twisty/uneven ground getting in and it was enough to trick the front ride height valve into dumping all the air. That then loaded a bunch of weight on the front drivers tire and brought the passenger side tire up off the ground by an inch."
Perhaps driving on the rough ground damaged the front ride height linkage or valve, resulting in it dumping air. OK, so the front suspension would drop down to the hard mechanical stops on both front corners.
If, at the same time, the front driver side tire was sitting on a high spot, and the front passenger side tire was in a hole, then the coach frame would be twisted as the rear ride height valves attempted to keep the rear axle at normal ride height on both corners. This could certainly result in a cracked windshield, as we all know.
What I don't understand is how the front suspension could be bent by this situation. If the front suspension is compressed down to the hard stops, then it is literally locked in proper alignment.
I also don't understand how dumping all the air out of the front air bags can raise a front wheel completely off the ground.
I guess I'm not understanding the whole picture. We need some photos showing what the coach looks like sitting in this condition.
Just armchair guessing here, but if the ground angle under the rear of the coach is different than the ground angle under the front of the coach and the tires are bottomed out on the front the rigidity of the frame might lift the low side of the front off the ground.
Wonder if turning on your HWH level system would/could act as the switch since it takes it out of travel mode?
I think this is what happened. The right rear was really high and the front left was really high. The HWH basically shut off on me. All lights went dead. When I turned the coach off I wasn't able to turn it back on. I waited a few minutes and came back and tried again and it turned on and aired the front passenger airbag up enough to make contact with the ground and I was able to drive out of there at that point.
Sorry to keep giving you just tid bits, I'll try to get in front of a computer to give the full story
Yes I agree. Cracking windshields is a expensive indicator to the problem. Two airbags at full pressure can produce well over 20,000 lbs of force attempting to do what they are designed to do. By shutting this system OFF while on level flat ground prior to trail, this can be reduced induced stress by airbags doing what they are being told to do when active. My coach rear axle weight is 20k so this would possible be enough force to lift a front tire off the ground if it was out of level that far. I'm just speculating what I think was proven yesterday. The front axle is allowed to articulate freely till limits are reached with mechanical stops. By turning off travel circuit the front axle will still stop at mechanical stops but rear ride height valves won't continue to attempt to correct and multiply the present problem. Rear axle bags if uncommanded will actually absorb some of the problem without adding to it and adding more stress. Like crosswinds every one should know the actual limits to stay within
Scott
Ok, two days and $6000 later we're back in Phoenix at my mother in law's. We were just getting ready to get back on the road after my wife beat cancer but the universe seems determined to keep me in this retirement community :headwall:
The story starts sometime last week. We had been waiting for over a week for some folks to get financing to purchase our 5th wheel. We finally gave up on the whole deal and made a last minute decision (mistake #1) to go see some friends that were boondocking near Sedona. The group we were meeting had four Class A's and a class C together, which made me assume I could get in there too (mistake #2).
They were parked just off of FR525 and there was a twisty turn to get into the area they were at. It was like an S, that had one bank at the top of the S and one at the bottom. Nothing crazy, but it was a tight squeeze for a 40' coach. I got out and checked it out before hand I decided I was comfortable giving it a go. I let my buddy guide me through it (mistake #3) and right as we were trying to make that last turn in the S, I heard the ride height valve start hissing. At first I thought it was a tire so I just stopped and got out to take a look. At that point the front left tire was up on a bank and so was the back right tire. By the time I kind of figured out what was happening, the front left bags were completely compressed, sitting on the cones, and the front right bags were completely deflated and extended, with that tire just hanging in the air about an inch off the ground. I tried to raise the coach but the HWH panel was completely dead; no lights at all. I shut the coach off and tried to turn it back on but it wouldn't even crank. Five minutes later I tried again and it fired right up. The HWH panel decided to come back out to play too and I was able to air the front end up so both wheels were touching and drive out of the S.
Once we were out on relatively flat ground we noticed that my tires no longer cleared the bottom mounting plates for the airbags. The front left tire caught on the bag behind it and the front right tire caught on the bag in front of it. I could only turn left at this point and there wasn't much room to work with between the trees so I got to the most level spot I could and chalked the tires and decided I was done for the night and went and had a beer around the campfire. The next day is when I got in touch with you guys.
Fast forward to yesterday: I ended up paying a wrecker/salvage company to come get me out. We ended up cutting the airbag mounting plates down with a sawsall and grinder so that the tires would clear them. After about a million three-point turns I was able to turn the coach around and drive it back out of the S onto FR525. From there I drove the five miles back to the highway at 5mph (to the delight of MANY other campers behind me). Once we were on pavement we got it hooked up to the wrecker and headed back to Phoenix. He pulled both axles and capped the hubs at my request and then towed it to an RV collision center about a mile a way from the storage lot where we had our 5th wheel.
Amidst all of this chaos, the buyers for our 5th wheel FINALLY got back to us saying 'we can sign today!'. So, while I was dealing with the coach, my wife was dealing with our bank and the buyers. We managed to close the entire deal over the phone and meet the buyers at the storage lot, get them hooked up and on their way, and then meet the wrecker at the collision center right as he was arriving. We ended up selling the 5th wheel for more than we bought it new for, three years ago. What a whirlwind.
Now I guess we just wait. The shop is going to get the axles back in on Monday or Tuesday so they can move it and it'll probably be a week or more before they get it up on a lift to look at it. They just had an '04 U320 get suspension work done and our estimator said that it took weeks to get the parts they needed from FOT. That bill was $20k apparently so this should be interesting but I'm glad to know they've worked on other FTs before. There's another one in their lot right now too... it's a tag with FBP that I'll post a picture of incase it's anyone here.
The tire looks about right in the well. The airbag base looks wrong .
Elliott,
Looking at your picture of the "S" turn I would probably have decided to go for it as well. However, after your experience, I will be more circumspect and critical in the future in evaluating where I drive off pavement. Thank you for sharing your unfortunate experience, it will probably save several of us from the same fate.
Richard
If you get a chance, how about posting photos of the bent parts? Not only close ups but some several feet away so we can see the location of the parts relative to everything else.
A super bummer. I can't believe these small turns did damage. We go through this stuff all the time. Just turning off our driveway to parking spots makes terrible sounds in the coach so I creep along hoping the windshields won't crack.
Pierce
I agree that doesn't present as someplace I would hesitate to drive threw. I still strongly feel I will do so with the travel circuit disabled on level ground prior to entering to stop any additional travel height adjustments and a run away overloading condition.
Scott
I'm with Pierce. I would have taken that road without a second thought. Getting out of my driveway is way worse than that. Anyhow, hoping for good news when they finally get a chance for a close examination of the suspension. Stay with it.
jor
Sounds like you've been through the ringer lately. Here's to better times down the road!
Looking at the picture I would have gone through also.
I'll try to snap some different photos next time I'm at the rig but honestly, there isn't much to see. The stuff that was bent was very subtle and I think it was really just an accumulation of small tweaks in a number of different places that led to a pretty sizable offset of the tires. I'll upload a couple photos from my phone here in a minute to give you an idea.
EDIT: The pics I do have aren't super useful to be honest
Ah.......the old bent ruler trick.
He may know he's doing but I would dry-line it end to end, or use a longer straight edge.
Good luck in your endever! I hope it's not as bad as the mechanic said it was.
It looks like I would go through that S turn in our 38 footer also, judging by the picture.
Doesn't look any tougher than the twisty section entering the Quartzsite camp But I do creep through that very slow. I'm very paranoid of displasing that front window.
Having said that. Wish you well on all repairs and thanks much for sharing the experience with us. It's another caution to add to the book.
Drive ways are truly dangerous. After all this I'm scared
Scott
Scott, looks good for not twisting but any high centering problem there?
Elliot, I'm almost in tears reading this saga. I also don't think you did anything outrageous, a lot of us have been down similar roads, and experienced off camber escapades as well. Life is an adventure, and staying on the pavement is lame.
How's your insurance coverage? Hopefully it'll cover some or al of the repairs.
Bent suspension parts and broken windshields are not unusual with these buses. I met Francis in Nac last year when he was getting a bent rear trailing arm straightened at FOT, so it can be fixed. From the ruler pictures, the bend in that linkage doesn't look serious, and it looks like rock chips may have been the stressors to initiate both the windshield cracks? It doesn't take much...I've replaced 3 windshields in 2 years due to rock chips in the outer couple inches of the glass causing cracks that rapidly propagate.
These coaches are "rolling earthquakes". If the front fiberglas clip is not secure to the steel frame work in the dash, the whole front end is a noodle, and the windshields are along for the ride from whatever exerts the most force from below. Rance at Xtreme showed me how to test for flex, and said that the factory used Liquid Nails to adhere the fiberglas to the steel framework in this era coaches. Modern adhesives are superior, but that's the best FT had at the time I guess.
Mike had his 2003 at Q this December, and it crabbed almost a foot (rear swung right). Something was really wrong with that chassis/suspension. That might be the coach you saw in Phoenix shop.
Please keep us updated on the diagnosis and repair process. My prayers are with you buddy.
If they cover it (which I think they will), it's basically a blank check for whatever estimate I get. They'll cut me a check and I'll deal directly with the repair shop. If it turns out there's more work to be done after that, there's a process for me to go through to get reimbursed for that too. I did this dance when we tore part of the roof off our 5th wheel and it was actually really smooth.
Unfortunately I'll be surprised if State Farm doesn't drop us after this. Between this, the 5th wheel, getting drugged by a bar tender and having a bunch of our stuff stolen, and the kitchen I nearly burned down, I will probably never be a money making proposition for them :-\
Three inches clearance at top on coach right center side. Biggest issue was approach angle at bottom both for front and rear of coach. No pitch issues at bottom just a lot of angle change. Had to have coach in raise position to clear front and rear. I would not recommend nor will I repeat, however we have a similar driveway in North Carolina at our daughters house and now don't think it will be doable for me since this weeks events have spooked me. Just as steep into a off camber busy two lane rural road in a turn. No way to drive straight up, have to enter diagonally. Ain't worth it.
Scott
Where do you hide your headlights?
They are right there in front you behind two polystyrene styrofoam blocks to protect them from UV rays. IE coach shades
Scott
I wondered if any else saw the lack of head lamps, lol. He has allot of work in those lamps and wants to keep them nice! They work great. Jim.
I notice that it looked like it didn't have head lights also.
In reading the post level/height malfunction Chuck brought up the topic of following the Emergency Leveling Valve Override Procedure. Could this option help us avoid Elliott's misfortune? Jim.
Another member sent me a PM wondering if a front bulkhead issue might be at the cause of the suspension movement. Would not take much to cause the tires to hit the bags. Might be hard to see for those not used to looking at the bulkhead where it bolts on.
Pierce
Good thing to check and EASY.
I just changed the title to better reflect the contents:
Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading
The procedure I linked is used when you have a failed height control valve or a failed travel solenoid. Pulling the fuse kills the travel circuit in the HWH brain box and prevents automatic adjustment of the ride height. What you have left is essentially a coach with "dumb" air bag suspension. The volume of air in the bags remains constant - there is no adjustment made for changing road conditions or coach weight/attitude (unless you do it manually). This is sometimes called a "Locked-In" suspension system. See link below for a discussion of air springs:
http://lhtech.com/pdf/automation/pneumatic/Goodyear-Air-Spring-Data.pdf
SO, is Locked-In (dumb) air suspension preferable to Active-Air (auto adjusting) air suspension for off-road travel in a motorhome? I don't know. Those with off-road experience will chime in, I'm sure.
I'm still not clear on what exactly happened to Elliott's leveling system that caused the front air bags to deflate. He did not mention if there was any damage to the linkage on the front height control valve. He said the front air bags lost pressure and the HWH control panel went dead. Then a while later it came back to life and worked again. So that is a big mystery to me.
I was hoping one of you would be able to shed some light on that. I swear the coach wouldn't start up again either. Adrenaline was pumping at that point and it's hard not to second guess myself looking back on the moment.
For me it will be. Having the height adjustments made once out of level will overload chassis chasing the unwanted. I will lock system on flat pavement prior to going off road any more. This will allow preknown values to stay the same and not overload chassis. I will also be adding limit warning horn /light switches to both front axle stops to indicate limits exceeded for me. Also also allows rear axle to absorb some of the irregularities rather than fight them
Scott
Need to give this some focused thought. Some combination of the one ride height value full high, one full low, and the differential pressure switch? Potentially some untimely glitch of the HWH controller as well. Just looking at the pictures of the road it does not look like anything we haven't driven through but its difficult to judge distances from the picture. Approach angles, exit angles, speed all make for a lot of variables.
Hard for us to diagnose the failure mode after the fact and from long distance. Some thoughts come to mind.
A temporary 12 volt power failure would cause the HWH panel to go dead, and would prevent restart of your engine. The ignition solenoid would be a likely place for that to occur... Say, for instance, the wire from the ignition switch to the activation terminal on the ignition solenoid makes intermittent contact at one of the crimp connectors.
But a dead HWH panel would not explain the loss of air in the front bags.
If the front suspension was severely flexed it might cause the front height control valve linkage to pull free from its connection point on the suspension. If the height control valve arm was in the "exhaust air" position at that time, it would dump all the air out of the front air bags. This failure should be obvious if the front height control valve is inspected and the linkage is hanging free.
Other members can probably think of other equally plausible scenarios.
As soon as the front axle reaches its limit and the opposing rear ride height valve sees being low that same side front tire will be lifted off the ground because the ride height valve has a job to do and will
Scott
By not starting, do you mean it turned over OK but would not start or nothing happened when you turned the key? If nothing happened, first thing to do is to check battery terminals by pulling them off and cleaning. Good to have a digital meter at the instrument panel lighter plug to check for voltage when you turn the key to start, etc.
Pierce
Elliot,
Sorry to hear everything you are going through.
Could there have been something "not right" when you bought the coach that you were/are unaware of compounding the situation?
Active air has a stop button on the dash display. When button is pushed HWH ps dead. Do not have to pull any fuses.
I believe Coach only has one ride height sensor for the front and is in the middle.
How many Fortravels have gone up a steep entrance at an angle with no problems.
Elliot,
Quick question - I noticed you have a 2001. Is it one of the handful that has IFS instead of a solid front axle that year?
No, it's a solid front axle
It's certainly possible but nothing showed up in the PPI. I do wonder how many folks are driving around with slightly bent stuff and don't realize it.
Yes there is a off button on control panel but if the parking brake is released it automatically goes back to travel.
If the level button is pushed one to enter manual that would work except once parking brake is released goes back to travel
Scott
Elliott,
Here is something to think about.
If you have a solid front axle then you don't have "A" frames that you mentioned as being bent in reply 15. If that info came from the tow truck driver it is understandable. If that info came from the repair shop refer to the first sentence above.
Mike
Elliot, sorry to hear of your troubles, and happy to hear your wife was victorious over the cancer.
Congratulations on the good sale of the 5th wheel too, great deal.
The S bend does not look severe from your photos, I'm sure I would most likely have gone for it too.
Although the hump in the middle may have given me some caution.
Curiosity question, how big were the other class A rigs that made it in there?
Also wondering if the earlier part of the road in could have shaken something loose causing the power loss?
One 40' country coach DP, one 38' Holiday Rambler (gas), one 38' Thor something or another (gas), and one Tiffin DP that was 36' or 38'.
Plus a big class C on a ford chassis and other much smaller rigs (casita, truck camper, 5th wheel, etc..). We have a very hodge podge group of friends :)
I am thinking it only goes back to working if you turn the key off and back on. I will have to check that when I go out again.
I had a left front air bag pop and lost all its air front driver side from over inflating it Manually trying to level the coach with one wheel in a hole and would not rein flat I let all the air out of the System and she inflated back up and I move it back on more level ground and it went back to normal it would not air up that one air bag till I empty the hole system there is only one valve in the front and the right side was full of air none in the left-hand side the air bag pop from the base
and then reseal it self
And I'll bet they all have rail type frames with the rigidity provided by the house. Right now you may consider it a liability, but with the Foretravel Unihome frame, the house will last much longer without falling apart.
Elliott, very sorry for your issues. Hang in there, it's just things, it'll get all taken care of and you'll have some good campfire stories. Wishing you the best.
This Thread has really got me thinking and wondering?....... I live in the mountains of Colorado where nothing is flat. To back in to my garage, I have to make a pretty severe S turn in reverse with concern about high centering at the top of the driveway as well as dragging both the front and rear when going from the sloped driveway to the flat garage. I have always put the HWH in manual, and lifted front and rear to almost the max and VERY slowly backed in. If not raised, I would drag the left rear and right front. With it raised, I haven't had any issues, I think the HWH being in manual mode makes the difference.
I actually was in coach before my post double checking hopeful that you were correct. With parking brake off you cannot go into manual mode. Raise worked fine. Red parking brake lite illuminated on control panel with level selected and held. As soon as released goes back to travel green light illuminated.
Scott
That is the same way my coach works. I need to raise it to get the passenger side mirror over the gate and the only way is to keep the raised button with my left hand and drive through the gate as soon as the button is released it goes down to travel.
Think Lt. may have a point,something happened before,if the torgue rods are truly bent then what bent them,theHWH did not bend a rod.Can you tell if the axle could have moved.
Would have them get the coach to proper ride height and see what that looks like,and if any rods are bent get new ones instead of rebending and get new bushings for the whole coach.
In our 2004, the raise button holds status when pressed once. It releases if you exceed 5 mph or press another button (I don't remember exactly which buttons, certainly Stop)
The change from "momentary" to "latching" raise button action seems to have occurred somewhere around the 2000 model year. This also applies to the "dump" button.
The only way to know for sure how a particular coach works is to try it and see what happens.
Excerpts below from the HWH Air Leveling Systems Textbook (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=1458#viewitem)
"
The "RAISE" Button. When the button is pushed all the raise solenoid valves will open allowing the vehicle to raise. This is a momentary button on some systems and will latch in on other systems."
"
The "DUMP" Button. When this button is pushed all the lower solenoid valves will open allowing the vehicle to lower. This is a momentary button on some systems and will latch in and stay on with other systems."
Ours is the latching relay, push once and coach will rise. 2003 U320
I'm just catching up on this post. First let me say that I wouldn't have given a second thought taking that S curve. I've been in a lot of places that look a lot worse. Looking at the photos it doesn't look "challenging", but then that's looking at a photo. It's also hard for me to conceive that the leveling system could do that much damage to the heavy duty suspension system on a Foretravel. The cracked windshield is not a surprise as that can happen in a shop but the suspension? Wondering if there was previous damage to the suspension system that you were unaware of. I wonder if you'll ever be able to determine exactly what broke and what caused it to break. I will surely be following this thread.
Roland
Elliot, sorry this happened to you. As others have said looking at your picture of the entrance and roadway I don't think I would have hesitated either other than the trees scraping my paint. My personal feeling and I'm sure there's plenty of people that will dispute this, is that these rings are not made for off-road. I know that plenty of people have taken them off road, or off of paved road but I have been hesitant to do so. Like the disperse camping north of Oregon Pike cactus national monument in Arizona. As I drove past it I was wondering how the hell am I going to get my coach out there? I know people do it but I wasn't comfortable with it. Maybe after more time with it as I only have on the coach for 3 years and put about 10,000 miles on it. But then again after seeing what you're going through maybe not. Someone indicated in this thread that we should take our coaches off road. Not every Foretravel is built the same. Not every leveling system works the same. And not every coach has the same age airbags and bushings and all the other parts that have to work together.
I'll have to think hard before I decide to do off-road in the future. Yours may be an isolated incident due to something that is yet seen. You may never know exactly what happened. One thing I do know from my own experiences and now yours too, is having good insurance is a must.
Good luck on the repairs and I hope it doesn't take too long to get you back on the road.
I've posted this picture before but they just don' make them like they used to. And probably a good thing that '81 rode like a dump truck and shook the insides on the freeways. But for 18 years we could go anywhere with the high center and beveled front and rear caps.
Camping on rough roads (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=39375.msg387442#gallery_387442)
I haven't had a chance to play with mine much yet...while it's raising with the latched relay, is there a button to press that will stop at the current level?
Keith, I'm going to see if my cancel button will stop my raise function part way. Oh and get back to work!
On our coach (momentary raise and dump buttons) the trick is to set the suspension height however you want it (using any of the buttons) and then turn off the ignition switch before releasing the button. The coach will "freeze" in that position. I find this handy when dumping tanks. Engine running - trans in "N" and parking brake set - tilt the coach up on the passenger side - turn off ignition. Helps fully drain the holding tanks.
This would not work if coach is moving (or stopped with engine running and parking brake off).
Just a reminder here, but the whole idea behind the automated HWH leveling system is to prevent the operator from twisting the frame of his RV. Something that was happening when we had four jacks with individual control.
As far as Elliott and his wife, I'm willing to place a small wager on a bent or broken attachment point on the uniframe. Something simple that just gave up the ghost under extreme duress.
Yes in auto mode leveling. Travel mode is just attempting to satisfy the ride height valve requirements. If ground level is out of limits, travel mode doesn't know there is a operator induced issue and will attempt to correct as proven till one of the front tires is off the ground flexing the chassis to beyond limits. Front axle only has one ride height valve to address coach elevation only. Pitch is performed by rear ride height valves till input needs is met
Scott
Yes, the ride height valves/travel mode are basically "not smart" (see how politically correct I am!). They merely maintain a given dimension between chassis and axle-- one on each side in the rear and a single one in front. Just a three decision tree based on input from the linkage-- do nothing, add air, exhaust air.
I was under my coach this morning greasing it and while there I was looking at the front suspension and it is really well built.
It is really hard for me to see the torque arms getting bent and they would have to be bent a whole lot to make a difference.
Where the torque arms supports are welded to the frame, if those welds let go then there would be displacement. The place Elliot drove through shouldn't bend or brake anything unless the part or parts were already weakened. I'm really curious what is foud
wrong.
Elliott ended up parked briefly with one wheel off the ground. I'm still willing to wager on one of those supports being moved.
Frame crossmember is faulty , for my 9$ bet. The Non Foretravel stuff is really strong and corrosion resistant .
Yes, all the welds look good and I can't imagine any of the arms being bent. Even if the bulkhead partially failed. the airbags should be in the same location relative to everything else.
If the front axle itself moved, that could explain it. Perhaps an accident with a PO?
Pierce
Have not studied the s curve,think it may have looked better then it was ,why did he end up with one wheel off the ground,would look good at the height valve linkage and find out if his tires could be
Oversized.
You have possibly a foot of articulation on the front end. Zero in the rear. So if you operate with six inches of droop and we do you only need to move either front tire up six inches before you are metal to metal on the stops. Then do the same on the rear in the opposite direction that does not articulation but worse (for off-roading) attempts to level axle to frame, causing more stress on the frame lifting the front tire off the ground. Perfect storm. Having travel solenoids deactivated would of slowed down or prevented this IMO at travel height.
Scott
I can vouch for that. I had total front bulkhead failure in Louisiana. Never noticed it while driving. Only saw it when stopped in a rest area and something didn't look right. Do a "Has this happened to anyone" search in Foretravel Discussions to get the whole story. I drove from Louisiana to Maine with the front bulkhead resting on several pieces of welded angle iron and noticed no difference in handling. Why I find it hard to believe the S curve episode caused the damage to the coach.
Roland
I can't see why the bulk head anything to do with the suspension as they both hang off the frame from different locations.
The term "bulkhead issue" is really a misnomer. That piece of flat steel isn't the problem, the problem lies in the square tubing to which that bulkhead is, or was, bolted, id Est, the frame itself.
I've always thought of the bulkhead as where the big angle iron is bolted to the rectangular tubing with some tin in between the two. It's not just the tubing that rusts as the backside of the angle iron is loaded with rust even on super non corroded coaches. I separated the two with a chisel and a single jack and then ran a Sawzall blade into the crack and was amazed at the amount of rust that fell onto the ground. I only went a few inches and am sure that there is ton of big chunks of rust where we can't see.
Pierce
"Out of sight - out of mind" that's my motto! :thumbsup:
It looks like in one of the pictures the tire rubbed the bodywork at the top of the wheel travel. What if the bus came to rest on the tire, and the tire is trying to rotate, would that bend the trailing arm, or maybe not possible?
It's hard to tell but the picture of the S probably has more elevation change than appears, most likely beyond what the suspension could handle, which transferred to the frame, which twisted.
Those white rub marks in the top of the wheel well are not unusual. Most older Foretravel coaches accumulate those marks in one or all wheel wells during their lifetime.
It is usually the result of moving the coach prematurely before the air suspension has time to pressurize and lift the body off the tires, or driving too fast over whoop-de-doos. (see photo below)
Often inflicted by drivers unfamiliar with air suspension systems (new coach owners, RV lot salesmen, repair shop employees)
The leveling system handbook warns us about moving the coach too soon in the description of the Travel Light:
"The TRAVEL light only means the leveling system is off and the air system has started to build air pressure. It does not mean the vehicle is at the proper ride height."
Answer to 106,no that would not bend the torque rod,still think something else bent it,if it even is bent.The torgue rods hold what is attached to the
Lower part of the air bags and what is attached to the upper part together
So it moves up and down uniformly,plus one rod on the front and one on the back to help with side movement.
What I was thinking is with the coach sitting on the tires where the rub marks indicate, the engine would be attempting to turn the wheel which wouldn't be able to because of the weight of the coach on top, but would induce the rotation of the hub which is attached to the torque or trailing arm which would put a bend in the arm.
Or maybe the trailing arms are naturally that shape?
I'm just guessing.
The damage occurred to the front suspension. The engine doesn't turn the front wheel. Even if the wheel was jammed it would just skid on the dirt.
Roger. Was trying to follow the thread:).
That piece of tin is the actual bulkhead and keeps the space frame from lozenging. Take a cardboard box and open the top and bottom, now push against one of the edges on the vertical sides. Lozenge. It's the same with the semi-monocoque or space frame construction of the Unihome chassis except the bulkheads are placed underneath, one at each end and in between the through bays.
Elliott may or may not have a hidden bend at or near one of the front attach points. More time spent getting in and out than cutting and replacing to effect a repair.
Any news,good or bad?
Still no news from the collision shop. They ordered new axle seals from FT and they've been taking their sweet time getting here (which isn't unexpected) so it's just been sitting inert in their lot where the tow truck dumped it.
In the meantime we've started house hunting in Prescott. Being full timers has been fun but we're ready for a home base we can come and go from and the stability that will once again provide.
Elliott,
So, no diagnosis yet on damage to front suspension???
Correct, no axle seals = no way to drive it on the lift I guess. And I'm certain they aren't in a hurry to find work, given the current state of the RV industry.
I'm mentally prepped for this to be a very long ordeal.
Think a big repair shop would have a nearby source for seals other then Foretravel,looks like your stuck with them.
Seems to me that you don't really need an RV collision shop but more of a truck alignment shop, and maybe a fabricator for the repairs.
Exactly what I have been thinking. What is a body shop going to do? What was wrong with the axle seals other than stranding you in their shop?
Pierce
Supposedly they have a chassis specialist that they outsource major chassis work to. Tbd.
New axle seals are just standard procedure when you pull the axles for towing.
I am also worried about bulkhead damage, wall damage, etc... so it'll be good to get it up on a lift and looked at by multiple parties (myself included).
I'm not going to get too worked up until they come back with an estimate. I've done this dance a few times with RV shops and am at peace with the fact that it will probably be a drawn out process with poor communication.
The axle seals have nothing to do with towing. There is only a gasket underneath the axle it self, only costs a buck and takes a second to put on. That's the advantage to full floating hubs, nothing is disturbed when you pull an axle. It has nothing to do with the hub. Does not sound good if they are telling you it's standard procedure. Standard procedure for keeping you in the shop perhaps. I have another example but crude.
Pierce
You really are as young as that photo aren't you Elliott?
Trust me. It's starting to sound as though you should shop around for repairs.
FWIW you can put the axle shafts back in without the gasket and drive on and off the lift. If there's a bit of weepage, wipe it up with a rag and odorless mineral spirits.
Agree with the above,run,and keep going,if they are going to"outsource"the work what's the holdup,crawl under and take a peek
the chassi and components are not rocket science.Put out a call to nearby forum members to take a look,at least find out what exactly the problem is.
I've got to agree with others on this. Pulled and replaced many full floating axles, have never had to replace a seal.
I guess a big question is if an insurance claim is involved. I expect, as others have said, that the problem can be detected by careful observation. If possible, would start by parking it on a flat, level surface, and leveling up. Stand back with a critical eye and note if and how the body appears to be twisted. Are seams between baggage doors and body even? Does the body appear to be parallel with the paving? Are you absolutely sure all airbags are intact and working? Do windows slide properly? Does entry door have an even margin and operate properly? Mount roof and look for wrinkles, cracks, sheared fasteners etc. Inspect body for areas where glass has cracked particularly at re entrant corners. Do interior doors work and latch properly? If body is visually lower in one corner than the others, try raising that corner with air a bit and see if things look better. This would help identify problem area if damage is localized.
Next, block up and crawl under. Look for obvious problems, bent torque arms, sheared bolts, damage to bulkheads. Is the fiberglass belly pan wrinkled?
Knowledge is power. If body is seriously torqued, this would be important to know for your dealings with insurance. If not totaled, then I would have it patched up, driven or hauled to Nac as a minimum and let them deal with it.
If its the axle it's not a seal it's a gasket any truck repair shop or truck part store would have that. you can even use Silicone make the gasket with a sheet of gasket paper or use the old one just to drive it in the shop have an truck mechanic make a Service call and check out the front suspension. you have a mechanical problem not a cosmetic problem it's a heavy truck centre With a alignment Center, that do suspension work For trucks or a fabrication shop welding shop for this job. can't see it being a major Job unless you also have a bulkhead issue in there maybe it just the front axle bolts that came loose and the front axle shifted at that low speed maybe 2 miles an hour it's hard to believe you have big damage you hit bigger holes driving on the main road that hit harder I think it is the front axle that shift for some reason it is not a very complicated suspension and very little that really can go wrong a good Heavy duty truck mechanic should be able to tell you with a service call and an One hour labour
Agree with Cape,simple system,don't need a specialization guru.
Curious minds are still here.
They are waiting for wheelbase measurements from FT right now. The general consensus is that the damage is not all that bad though.
Between waiting for axle seals for the axle gaskets and the wheel base thing, sounds like you may be in for a bumpy ride.
I hope not and maybe I'm reading too much into it.
Measure both sides and see what fits in the wheel wells.
Check for the rear axle square in a couple of places in the front half of the coach and see if the axle is out of line , or the trailing arms are not even from the rear end.
My 100$ is on a bent trailing arm mounting area. /tube . Or simply broken away from the frame .
How many weeks does it take to send wheelbase measurements? Every morning must seem like Groundhog Day.
Pierce
My money goes on misaligned front axle,no way did the torque rod bend from what he did.
Going back and reading the earlier posts the tire were rubbing on bags at opposing corners. Makes sense that the axle migrated on the perch or bent the entire front axle structure. If the links or mounts were affected it would not affect tire to airbag dimensions. The painful stall tactics is unacceptable to me but everyone is busy, but how long would it take to drop some plumb bob marks and take some measurements just to qualify or disqualify a repair. It's frustrating to say the least and I'm not vested at all with it. I genuinely hope Elliott gets a fair deal on getting it resolved promptly. Still chuckling about axle gaskets.
Scott
I also have been waiting to see how you are going to make out Elliott. I don't know how handy you are but with a messaging tape,
a carpenters square and some string you could check out the alignment your self. I wish you all the luck
I'm watching how many people are reading this almost 3000 reading and Fallowing this everyone waiting to see the outcome and looking out for Elliott Hope thing's work out
WE should start a pool.. ?
The Non Foretravel stuff will be fine. Its the suspension mounting to the Foretravel frame bits that have failed . For the money :)
We should have a 50/50 draw with what we think what went wrong to help out Elliott half to the winner and half to Elliott L.O.L
After it's all said and done if it turns out the shop did'nt know what they were doing or looking at let's get the name so we can cross them off the list,and if they do a good job let's get their name to add to the list.
Now that the dust is settling I'm not as wound up over the delays and I'll explain why.
Whether or not they actually needed to order the axle seals from FT is moot at this point; they did and I'm not going to fault them for going through FT after I made a fairly big deal about wanting to make sure this was done "right" when I dropped it off. I'd rather them err on the side of caution in that regard. In 20/20 hindsight, the way I handled my concerns about whether or not they were qualified to work on a FT was pretty poor and definitely didn't score me any brownie points.
It turns out that FT initially sent them the wrong parts, and then sent them only ONE of the correct parts, and that's where much of the delay came from. I ended up calling Zach at FOT and he confirmed this story was true.
THEN right as the correct parts arrived, insurance started raising some concerns over the 10 hours of labor they wanted just to put the estimate together. I told the shop to pump the brakes until we could get some questions answered. It ended up taking multiple days to sort through it and it was a big non-issue. Basically, those 10 hours of labor are only billed if they go through all the effort of estimating it and then I decide to take it somewhere else. It's a reasonable stipulation IMO and once we got it properly documented insurance was good with it. By the way, I used that time to call around and see if there was a better place for this work and I feel good about where I have it. I even called a couple of the FT authorized service centers in SoCal, as well as my local Cummins location and asked them for a recommendation and still ultimately decided staying put was the best option.
On an unrelated note, insurance reimbursed me for the full $6k bill for the tow/recovery, without batting an eye ^.^d
So, I finally just gave the shop the greenlight to proceed this past Monday. They've got it up on a lift and are mostly done with the estimate I guess, they're just waiting to hear back from FT on the wheelbase measurements before presenting me with the real deal. Given that FT has absolutely zero incentive to help me with this, I'm not surprised it's taking a while to hear back. There is loss of momentum every time a delay occurs... techs get repurposed, parts guys worry about other orders, etc... it's the nature of the beast and I'm getting the full effect of that.
We've rented an AirBnB for a month and it's taken some of the pressure off. I don't feel the need to be pushy and I'm slowly gaining trust in the shop that has my coach. Despite some chaos for a couple days, insurance is looking like they'll take good care of me too. I'll share the estimate here once it's all said and done... I'm sure there will be some negotiating over it
We used to race Hobie cats and often extreme sailed Lake Ontario. The crash boat drivers would come up to us and tell us that we were on our own. So we crash boated each other. One day it was blowing about 40 , so we built a beer drinking fire. 3 newbs set their boat up and went out . 2 came back on the boat eventually. , the 3rd, Girl swam back as she had fallen off pretty quick. . Meanwhile we had a pool going for how long until they pitch poled . I had 3 min. etc. When they actually sailed back onto the beach we gave them the money. They could not turn around , so they dumped and swam the boat around , flipped it back up etc.
Well worth the 5$ per to watch.
That's how I roll! Why wait to burn your bridges!
The good news is a little grovelling works wonders, and in the long run the shop will feel as though they hold the high ground.
We are carefully watching this thread. We're ready to boondock and traveled several BLM roads in the Jeep this week that we wouldn't previously have been concerned with if we'd taken then slowly...rocky and Sandy but no serious elevation changes. We need to hear the final analysis of this thread so watching intently.
Sounds like your insurance is good,what company?
Not knowing exactly to what the radius arms are attached, I'll place my bet on a buckled frame tube.
Stretching my neck out I think Foretravel Offroader Elliott hit a rock with his front axle.
Hopefully below the bag attachment structure/axle
Scott
One side went back into the bag support and the other went forward.
I wonder if Elliott got air?
So bag support made contact with tire. It's mounted to the structure that holds the axle. That assembly moves with the axle if it's below the lower bag mount plate. The upper mount is attached to the frame. It never made contact at that position in photos posted at the start. More like a earth mover pushing
Scott
Toolmaker,what are you calling a "frame tube" you have the torque rods and the frame itself,don't think neither is bent from his
story,unless something bent before this incident.
The frame of the unihomes and unicoaches is made of square steel tubing artfully arranged to have the same stiffness as a bridge. I have the rubber torsion bar suspension so my torsion bars are mounted to angle iron. I've only had a chance to look at one U320 in person and all I was able to see was that most of that front suspension is mounted to a giant steel mattress. I know that in the rear the track bars are mounted to the steel tubing, and I assumed the front axle was located in a similar fashion.
Either way, Foretravel did not use custom hydroformed parts, only using bandsaw cut catalog steel products held together with welds.
As others have pointed out, to repair you need the same skill set as a 15th century cathedral architect. Plumb bob and something with which to measure combined with basic compass and straightedge geometry.
A laser level and a tape measure would be illuminating. 'Aint rocket science, why all the guesswork?
State Farm. This is my second RV claim with them. During the last one they paid for a new roof on my 5th wheel. Hoping they don't drop me after this ordeal...
don't be a three time offender - State Farm dropped me on homeowners when that happened -
Price Progressive if they do drop you - good rates, great claims experience....
Alright, the estimate is back, sort of. The frame/walls/bulk heads/etc.. all look good. There is some minor body work to the front end cap that requires some light glassing + paint and they need replace the windshields, but it's mostly superficial stuff. They also need to repair the base of the airbags where we trimmed them down... I'm not sure how they're going to do that and am waiting on an answer. All said and done, the whole shebang so far is up to about $13k in labor + parts. I'll share the actual bill once all the work is done and paid for but for the sake of insurance, I want to keep it close to the vest right now.
The reason I said "sort of" is because they are outsourcing the suspension issue to Freightliner before they do anything else. They can't see anything visibly damaged so freightliner is going to start with an alignment and go from there. If they aren't able to align it or they find something that's damaged, the estimate will change and cost will go up. I'm waiting for State Farm to approve the estimate (hopefully in the next day or two) and then the coach will get shipped off to Freightliner.
While they have the wheels off for other repairs I'm going to have them put four new bags on in front since I hadn't yet gotten around to that. I get to buy my own bags and they'll just charge me the additional labor. Pretty happy with the shop so far to be honest.
Glad to see movement for you. Bag mounts should be a easy fix by replacing what was cut off. I still think there is more to come unfortunately. Genuinely hope I'm wrong
Scott
Think they would remove the old round plate and weld in a new one.
Glad to hear you are happy with the shop.
So, they have yet to determine exactly what allowed the axle to move enough to have the tires contact the air bag support plates?
WOW. That much movement should not be that hard to discover.
Elliott-- keep us posted. Inquiring minds are still puzzled.
So what happened to the straight edge and the 4 bent torque rods?,seems like they were not bent.
While on the subject I read back to Ken Hats post from 6 years ago where Foretravel told him these bushings were "Hutch bushings",not sure who told him but they are NOT hutch bushings,Foretravel sells the style that Elliot has in his picture,4 bushings
per rod,2 nuts and bolts per rod and 2 metal spacers per rod.Looks like the ones in his picture are well worn and replacement would probably make the coach ride tighter.
Subscribed. Looking forward to seeing the outcome of this story.
One or more of the messages of this topic have been moved to Around the Fire Ring (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?board=1.0) - https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42431.0 (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42431.0) since they aren't related to the frame/suspension issue of this topic.
Welp, State Farm approved the full $13k estimate without any hassle ;D. So, off it goes to Freightliner for the alignment/suspension inspection. The collision shop said it should only take 2 -3 weeks to do their work once its back from Freightliner so I'm hoping things start to pick up momentum soon. The one big monkey wrench that could be thrown in all of this is if Freightliner needs to buy new parts from FOT. In that case I suspect it could be quite a while before I get her back. Every account I've heard from folks here on the forum suggest that FOT has had a wild summer so far and my parts probably won't be a priority if something needs to be fabricated.
Just keep us posted on the suspension damage,dying to know what actually happened.
I want to know the the alignment shop found. Everything else is plastic.
So any progress? Any updates? Hate dangling participles.
Roland
Sorry for the radio silence...life's been a little hectic and the FT hasn't been on the front of my mind recently. I just got off the phone with Freightliner and I'm still sorting through things mentally myself but I'll share what I was told.
1) The coach aligned perfectly. All the measurements they took were equidistant and nothing is bent. They noted a couple bushings that're showing signs of wear. "5 or 6 years left".
2) When there is no air in the suspension, the tires are too big. They literally don't fit between the bag plates I guess :o
3) When there IS air in the suspension, there's enough room for normal operation.
Again, I'm a couple hours away from the coach right now so all I know is what I've been told.
Without having had time to digest this, is it possible that I've always had this problem but never been in a situation where I had to move the coach without air in the suspension??? Why would the driver's side tire rub on the back plate and the passenger side tire rub on the front if this is the case? Is a bit of "play" normal and it's just super noticeable now due to the decreased space caused by larger tires?
Tires are 295/75/R22.5
Thoughts? Not what I was expecting to hear...
The tires are the same diameter. There is no practical difference between a 295/75R22.5 and a 275/80R22.5. The difference is the width and that only makes a slight difference with the coach leaned over at slow speeds in a turn. And then, it just barely polishes the air bag plate.
Here are all of the comparison numbers for the two sizes: 295/75-R22.5 vs 275/80-R22.5 Tire Comparison - Tire Size Calculator | Tacoma... (https://www.tacomaworld.com/tirecalc?tires=295-75r22.5-275-80r22.5)
With no air in our bags, there is plenty of clearance to the bag mount in front and the other behind the tire.
From what you are saying, there is no damage to the coach and you could have driven away from the incident. Not trying to put a thumb in the eye but it sounds like what happened.
Pierce
Elliot the part that rubbed and was cut off to clear is unsprung ie attached to the axle and moves with the axle. The upper bag mount plate is on the frame and could never interfere. Raising or lowering makes no change to the lower bag mount to axle and tire position. Yes they do scrub a little when bringing turned but they do not impact as yours was shown
Scott
We have always run 295s with no problem rubbing. If you have a chance, take a look at the 4 bolts at the end of the axle that bolt the front axle to the subframe. I believe they are 7/8 inch bolts. Just make sure they are tight...... An off the wall thought....who knows.
I think it's safe to say that no one on this list would consider checking tire clearance without air in the suspension.
Congratulations on doing something new.
Art Joly
Correct me if I am wrong. Just going from memory.
The front straight axle is rigid mounted to a rectangle frame. This frame has 4 air bag mounts ( 2 on each side) that are outboard (inline) with the tires. The air bags on the frame then pushes up on the coach to raise the coach up. If the above is true the distance between the tires and the air bag lower mounts on the frame should never change since everything is fixed.
I agree with turbojack. The lower mounts for the air bags are mounted to the frame and are not raised or lowered with the air. They are the base plates for the system and the bags lift the coach off of the frame and tires. The distance to the base plates would only change when the front or rear tire hit a bump causing the axle to absorb the upward jolt.
Strange tho....
Glen
All coaches will eventually equalize the air systems. If the tires make solid contact with the fender wells then the fibreglass will break. Checking the clearance with no air is a good idea.
I dont think that the issue has been solved yet, BTW.
And, I cant imagine the insurance paying for the cosmetics before the structure has been diagnosed. Ducks are out of order.
Please post pics of repairs!! I would greatly appreciate it :)
WOW!! Sure makes me glad we have a chassis designed by John Deere (off road equipment you think?) built by Oshkosh Truck (who also build garbage trucks and military vehicles) and finish assembled by Foretravel (who build some of the greatest Class A coaches in the world).
And after 31 years the bathroom door closes perfectly, along with the entry door and the closet doors!
We sure are lucky!!
Think we need to start a new thread,we got away from the original problem.
One or more of the messages of this topic have been moved to Foretravel Tech Talk (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?board=5.0) - https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42685.0 (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42685.0) since they were unrelated to the current topic
Done.
Please take discussion of tires, balance beads, etc. to the other topic so this one may remain about Elliot's frame concern.
So the coach is back from Freightliner. Attached is the alignment work they did. Now we're working on how/where we get a new mounting plate for the one that was trimmed down. Hoping this is something Foretravel sells... :(
The body work they're doing is going into paint soon and the windshields are in... so we're getting there. Just need to get the airbag plate figured out and have new bags put in and then we might be back on the road soon!
Elliott,
Am I reading the RO correctly-- only issue causing the damage is play/wear on bushings?? Are they replacing the old bushings?
Front end alignments specs certainly weren't far enough out to cause damage.
You're reading it the same as me, I think. They are NOT replacing the bushings... when I spoke to the service manager he downplayed the bushings issue. "Not very bad, probably 5-6 years left in them".
At this point our/my best guess is reduced margin due to oversized tires + me throwing it out of alignment during the incident caused the tires to hit the plates. Is that possible?
The real test will be when we get the new mounting plate on there I guess. I had the service advisor air the coach all the way down and he said there wasn't any rub on the plates currently...for whatever that's worth....
These guys have been driving it around Phoenix without issue
No mention of checking/setting Sheppard steering box CUT-ANGLES.
The mechanical stops are there to prevent tire/wheel contact with either suspension or body components.
The pressure relief screws allow adjustment so there is an "air gap" of a 1/4 inch or so between where the relief plungers limit cut angle and the mechanical stops.
These adjustments are the same on any OTR truck with the Sheppard M100 steering box.
This is certainly something you can check yourself.
Our U300 has been running 295/75R22.5 since time began. Since the tire has the same diameter as the 275/80 and only 5/8 of an inch wider, I don't consider it "oversized." We have gone across fields, down dry washes to the beach, etc and in all kinds of coach attitudes without anything more than a small shiny spot on the air bag mount. I can't imagine any attitude that would have caused your problem, especially since the shop cannot find anything wrong with it.
What do you mean by "throwing it out of alignment." I never hold the wheel over against the stops to where it makes the power steering noise. Perhaps the stops were not adjusted correctly sometime in the past.
Pierce
I personally would leave the plate and bag alone. More clearance, I don't see any safety issue. I would probably trim the other side to match, but that is just me. Black paint would fix the rest.
Interesting that insurance is paying for all this, as the bad bushings is what was determined causing all this. From the times I did insurance claims as a RV service advisor, they would call this a 'Maintenance Issue" and kick it out. Maybe you have good insurance.
Glad you are moving ahead, hope all comes out well. I would push for the bushings to be replaced, even if I had to pay out of pocket.
Cheers
Chris
Purely a guess without really knowing what is/isn't possible, but when the front air dumped and the one wheel came off the ground, while the rear bags were applying upward pressure, I'm wondering if that was enough to throw the front alignment out of whack. Or just doing silly things like going places I shouldn't with a 32,000lb vehicle
But it's fun going silly places. Don't like to have to worry about doing it though. I have to agree with you that there may be a combination of front and rear attitudes that may be a perfect storm when they occur. Just wonder what it is. I do know that while the center of the coach resists twisting, the same can't be said for everything in front and behind the bulkheads. I can't believe the snapping and popping noises our coach makes during transitions even when moving very slowly.
Pierce
X2
I agree with this. Bags don't care and bushing are cheap. As I recall 32$ to do the front or rear of coach with stock rubber bushings.
I have prepurchased a set and if I can find some motivation I'll install. Too Hot now.
Scott
Elliott's Party Bus and off road excursions!
Now tentatively booking reservations for our 2022 tour... 8)
In the long run Elliott, it wouldn't hurt for you to do a little reading about front end design. Just enough so that you understand what are caster, camber, and toe. The stuff Foretravel didn't buy is within the scope of any fabrication shop to build.
And that having wheels off the ground on a 32,000 truck is a bad thing in general.
I must disagree
If your talking about the torque rod bushings you got some wrong info,the front of the coach has 5 torque rods as does the rear,4 bushing halves per rod,some of the bolts and nuts and spacers will have to be replaced and it is a very labor intensive job,if you meant some other bushing then I stand corrected.
Elliot,agree with above,the plate will be fine like it is.
I would not change that plate as you are not loosing any integrity with that bit off of it.
Hey Elliott? I just read your Freightliner receipt and noticed the note "Left front rotor starting to show signs of discoloration." No big hurry, but close following is warranted. That and finding a fellow Foretraveler or truck brake shop to take a look at that front disk brake for signs of dragging. You'd be better off with a qualified list member INMNSHO because most truck shops only do drum brakes.
Elliott,
Check the post about the new tires and clearance. This is a possible reason for you mishap and also the reason not much could be found wrong. It looks like the contact possibility is exactly where our photos show our tires being very close. It could have happened to us and we are always doing what you did. A 275/80 is the same diameter and would have done the same thing. My feeling is that Foretravel did not test for tire to bag clearance in all possible attitudes of the coach. bags should have been spaces a couple of inches further from the tire. Visulize the coach dropping a few inches lower and where the bag plate would hit the tire. Food for thought.
Bridgestone R213 Ecopia 295 r75 h load rating (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42784.msg429653;topicseen#new)
Pierce
With the coach in forward motion, the very front air bag plate would be polished as the tire is coming down but since the rearward bag would see the tire coming up instead of going down. the plate would dig into the tire. Possibly really hard.
Pierce
The plates on the bottom are literally attached to the axle. They cannot change relationship position with the tire. During turns the tire sweeps closer but it's relationship never changes physically. Bags Inflated or flat has no effect on tire to lower bag mount, because they are the mounted together. The entire structure below the bags to axle is un sprung weight and all attacked rigidly together. For a tire to touch as this one has the entire structure supporting the axle was sprung. The upper mounts are on the chassis and the tire cannot get anywhere close to them ever. So at full opposing articulation this may induce a rotational stress on the entire lower unsprung axle assembly. We have established that this should never ever be allowed to happen. And with a tire a inch off the ground I can't imagine the stress. When I get to changing my front link bushings I will articulate fully , but unloaded and with one of the link bolts removed so as to measure the induced stress. I seriously doubt it will be incidental, till then I'm speculating, but have built other high articulation suspension systems to be aware of the induced stresses often overlooked. IMO
Scott
Scott,
You are absolutely correct in that the bottom plate will not move in relation to the tire, the top will but that won't effect the tire hitting. I just crawled under ours and there is no sign of any movement or wear in any of the bushings.
With the new tire, when I move the steering wheel, the tire has a few degrees where it will touch the plate.
So, one rabbit hole dead end. Good point Scott!
So, now is the question, why in some attitudes, does our tire hit the front right bottom bag plate? When normally turning the wheel, it clears fine. If the bushings don't allow any movement, why do some attitudes cause the interference? Can the front end twisting in Elliott's case, cause this condition?
Pierce
Twist of the axle mounting, Frame etc. I would simply cut 1 in of the edge off of the plate .
I believe that the route cause of the air bags and tire clearance is this. Foretravel build motor homes they are Not engineers. Example, the discussion of monocoque or semi monocoque or inverted truss, the people who built them don't know what they are, Mr Fore said it's a semi monocoque.
Similarly the bulkhead problem, from the top of the chassis up they are great but it seems that things below are ? ?
Now that I've got that off my chest, I enjoy my ORED every chance I get and I will drive the wheels off it.
IMHO
Foretravel had some great minds, and some were very good engineers. It's just the scale they did it on. It wasn't a big corporate thing.With big corporate dollars behind them, to do whatever they wanted to do.
BTW, 3208 Cats, just like 3126's, are not throw away motors. That is a nickname, because they don't have sleeves like many diesel engines. So to call them "throw away" say's all gas engines , SB chevy, BB chevy, Fords and Chryslers, are all throw away, because you have to bore them, to rebuild them. 8) 8) 8)
Removable sleeves can create issues, I have a bored and permanent sleeve, no issues.
Anyway, to stay on track, any Monocoque chassis foretravel built, that hasn't had any other major issues, is still rolling down the road. I love mine, wouldn't trade it for any kind of sprung truck chassis with a house box on it, it is one of the main reasons I bought a U coach.It is the reason they demanded big bucks in their day.
Cheers
Chris
Chris,
It's a shame nobody had a tape measure to get the airbag mounts in the same place on both sides.
It's an inverted bridge truss.
Mick
I fixed a bunch OR TVR cars ( still have one). Got done bonding a left to a right half of the tip foreward hood. Ready for the paint shop.. The paint guy says that the right fender is 1/2 in longer than the left fender. Measured the other 2 on site and they all measured the same . 1/2 in longer.
Yes, British Leyland managed to put out tens of thousands of one model that was 3/4" shorter/longer on one side. Must be what we refer to as Not Bespoke engineering. My mind goes to Lotus as an advanced operation case in point, noise canceling headphones, big deal, Lotus offered a noise canceling system over 30 years ago.
A Foretravel chassis is no where near being a monocoque chassis. Only the mid section. The long front and rear are add-on conventional frame chassis. That's one of the reasons there was no room for a side to side radiator and simple fan drive.
To break it down, we have 12.5 feet of conventional frame at the back, 14 feet of monocoque construction or really truss construction and 9 feet of conventional frame construction at the front. In other words, 39% of the total frame is truss construction and none of it has to do with the suspension.
For a monocoque chassis you have to look at all the old GM buses and others. It's a lot harder and more expensive to go monocoque all the way.
Pierce
This will be the last time that I try.
Not monocoque
Not semi monocoque
It's a space frame or to be precise an inverted bridge truss, if you were in the army think Bailey Bridge.
Instead of rockers and rollers at the ends of a bridge it has axels.
The attachment below is an example of monocoque. Ours has zero steel up front except for the conventional frame down low. This is why our windshields crack, the body creaks and groans and the front has no protection from an accident or even a big bird.
Pierce
Monocoque by definition is by example an aircraft fuselage where the all or most of the loading is in the skin, a semi monocoque uses a n internal frame to reinforce the outer skin.
That's a semi monocoque in the picture.
I simply googled, definition of monocoque, as the three American/English dictionaries that I referred to don't have the word monocoque.
So the front drag links are exposed to opposing torsional loads when the axle is articulated. The bushing help in unloading some of this stress but this design is always twisting them. Not present in the rear because ride height valves prevent most differential articulation but is exposed to effects of torque damage or wear from normal driving. Neither seems to be a issue. But this design is wonderful on most groomed roads and at highway speeds.
Scott
I've read the above but after all that, what's your take of Elliot's event? You are generalizing and not pointing a finger in any direction. :) What are the shortcomings off the smooth pavement and what bends/flexes enough to cause the contact in your estimation? In other words, what part twisted enough to cause it? We go off the pavement onto really rough roads without any kind of event. Our driveway has enough twist in it on the downhill 120 degree turn to move the windshields around and make a lot of noise on each trip up and down it.
I checked all the bushings today for signs of wear and movement but there is none. At ride height, all the drag links are parallel and so is the Panhard bar designed to locate and stablize the side to side movement. As the body raises from increased air bag pressure, the entire front suspension will try to move to the curb side very slightly as the Panhard geometry changes. The drag links will also try and rotate the suspension very slightly as the bags inflate over their normal ride height. With one side deflated and the other side inflated, will that twist any part of the suspension? While the Panhard rod is not as efficient as a Watts Llnk, it's still should be adequate for the coach.
Pierce
I love the ride/ feel of my upside down bridge, Foretravel, with my throw away Cat. I'm hard headed, and simple minded. LOL
Cheers
Hey my throw away ISB is starting to get a hurt feeling.
Reply 197
What happens to the parallel links when one side is articulated full down and weightless and the other is bottomed out on the frame rail stops and loaded beyond. I suspect this is what flexed the axle sub structure and then returned once leveled. My best guess
Scott
The trailing arms bend when one side is higher than the other. The axle twist a very little also but the trailing arms act like a sway bar.
Thinking about this I starting to think the bushings in the trailing arms were fully loaded and distorted causing the tires to rub as they did then once unloaded relaxed returned back in there proper location. Just doing there job. Regardless I change the bushing before returning to service IMO
Scott
The end of the arms with the bushings is a tight fit into the location where the big bolt goes through it and any movement will leave a mark showing the extent of the movement as the lip of the bushing is flush with the sides. Just no movement at all with only one showing perhaps 1/32" maximum movement.
Think I will take my 7 inch disk and take off 1/8" of the possible contact area on the air bag mount.
Pierce
It's hard to believe that coach's that are 20 year old and have hundreds of thousands of miles on them all put together that all of a sudden this problem comes up and have to start modifying bottom plates there has to be something that is different And I still think it's in the tires I've had my coach for about two years now I read about problems with the bulkhead, steering box , Cruise control, radiator windshield but nothing about steering and suspension and now start grinding on plates that been there for 20 years something does not add up drive a rig for 20 years with no problem To turn into my driveway from main road it is a very ,very steep incline in too my driveway. I have to raise the coach on air bags to it's maximum. I have to turn into a steep incline so I don't hit the back or scrape the back trailer hitch into the pavement I've pull the back mud flap off a few times So I'm turning and climbing with the air bags maxed out and on a hard turn everything is twisted and never once have I scraped the tires on the bottom part of the air bags . I don't think you can twist a coach any harder than this driveway . So cannot imagine why you would have to modify a coach that is 21 years old. With all the rigs out there there has to be a coach that went through the same driving conditions as Elliott something is Worn out or bent or been damaged there 20 years with no problem. What is on that coach that is not original from Foretravel if everything else is OK or in specs the tires on it are not the original size there is a different that why 275 are not 295 they are different just my way of thinking. I like to keep everything stock not looking for problems I believe Foretravel have done there home work we do have some problems like the bulkhead but there 20 years old and you can see the problem there rust out need to repair but taking a piece out of a good plate?
Tire size charts all say the same thing about the diameter of the tire. Different manufacturers all have slightly different diameters and the one in the photo may be slightly larger. New tires will always be larger in diameter compared to a used tire. No such thing as a "good plate" if it touches the tire. Can you imagine anyone designing suspension geometry where the clearance is so incredibly close?
Other than a very occasional polishing of the front right plate, our 295's are perfect in our 28 year old coach.
Once again, here is the chart below. 39.8 vs 39.9 or .1 of an inch and the important radius is only .05 of an inch. The width is about 3/4" wider or about 3/8" on each side. Our comes close to touching from the edge to further in than 3/8" on the face of the tire. 295s work on a big percentage of Foretravels. Always has on ours.
Pierce
I don't have a U320 handy to look at so I have to ask. That box tube to which the bag mount is welded? Does that go from side to side in one piece? If it does, is Elliot's box tube properly centered?
Yes and yes. Assuming it was done on a jig, it probably is centered but never hurts to check it along with the distance from the edge of the rear mounting plate to the edge of the front mounting plate. Tough to do with the tire in place.
Pierce
So in rethinking the bushings. They can't effect distance from axle to bag mount because they are all on the same platform. So yes bushings will deflect but will not effect distance to lower bag pads :headwall: fender wells yes
Scott
I'm wondering if speed had anything to do with Elliot's misshap?
Nope. I was well under 5mph... don't think I could have gone any slower
Assuming it was done on a jig. I didn't get to this fine old age by making assumptions.
That being said, you people have never run the same motorcycle for decades. Once the OE tires are no longer available, tires become an interesting consumable to source. I had to slot the front fender mounts for clearance and the rear has to be installed uninflated.
After looking at the tires size comparison chart on reply 219 the 295/80 R22.5 is a bigger tire it is wider and just a hair bigger in diameter with the pressure on the tire under the circumstances of the landscape putting all the load on the one tire with the other tire off the ground it expanded the tire even bigger which it came in contact with the bottom airbag plate that's what caused the problem with Elliott coach . Lift your coach of the ground then drop it back on the ground look how the tire explains under the load the coach is design to use 275/80R 22.5 yes you can use 295/75R22.5 but the bottom plate should be modified to have the clearance while turning so the same situation would not happen again The coach was inspected and checked from a Truck alignment shop and everything is in spec and align. I am not disputing that you can or can't use 295/80 R 22.5 and have no problem if someone is interested in them on there Coach I'm just saying that Elliott mishap was because of the over size tires and on the turn and with the load on the tires in the situation the coach was in the tire didn't have the clearance Maybe it is Foretravel fault for there design on this subject we were trying to find the cause of the accident not what we can get away buy using something else's the subject is what Cause the mishap and I would very much like to know anyone of us maybe in the same situation trying to get into a campground again nothing was bent or worn out or out of specs the coach never had this problem new and in 20 years. he was not speeding the tire didn't have the clearance to turn I would like to have Two coach's side by side and Measure the distance between the tire and bottom plate with the two different tires. This to me is the only thing that sticks out that's different and was change and can be corrected bye mortifying the bottom plate Which I can't see to be a problem
But many of us have been running the 295 for many years without a problem. We take our U300 through the same kind of terrain all the time without mishap. Agree, modifying the bottom plate can't hurt anything.
With a mishap that severe, I can't believe that either size tire would have made a difference.
Designing the suspension without giving taking into account the clearance for different steering angles is just poor engineering in my opinion. In no circumstance, should the tire come within an inch of the tire under any steering angle combined with body angle or flex/twist.
My Buffalo bus had airbags and they never came close. They were in a different location but it was known as the sports car of buses so not a bad location.
Pierce
There not too many time I travel with one tire off the ground putting all the pressure on all the other tires where talk about turning on uneven ground one tire completely of the ground in the lifetime of a coach , how many times do you drive like this and under this Circumstances I think with that much pressure and over size tire there was no clearance. You are not just driving on 4 tires completely on the ground at all time If you went to Foretravel with a brand new coach and told them you were out off-roading with one tire completely off the ground and not the right size tires on it and you were looking for a warranty they would probably tell you are not covered
I would bet that every coach Foretravel tested the wheels where on the ground at all times you can roll a ball with your foot it rolls but walk on it with all that pressure on it . It's not going to roll there was 32000 lbs and more on 3 tires not four tires the coach and tires were not built to have that kind of load the tires did not blow but with that kind of pressure there was no clearance and the over size tires didn't help I drove tractor trailer all my life and there are some spots I delivered I refuse to go into . The truck wasn't made to go there .you can take a full size pickup truck put over size tire on it and go off-road but you wouldn't take a z3 BMW convertible put over size tires and go off-road we drive a high end coach and know one would think that people would take a $300,000 to $400,000 coach for a drive across a field BUT WE ALL DO and I'm one of them many times I've done it the problem here is the turning clearance and uneven ground and one wheel completely off the ground. not just going straight up and down the interstate on over size tires
This is just my opinion all I'm trying to do is put common sense with what information that has been presented on this subject . I understand people have been driving with over size tires but how many have been in this exact situation. Look at the details and circumstances I can add 15000 lbs of Weight more than the the coach is made to handle it will go up and down the road and probably handle it but eventually something is going to break or nothing will brake and I can say i did it and drove many of miles Like I said before yes you can drive with over size tires but the bottom plate should be fabricated so this problem will never occur and probably should be fabricated also with our original tire size just trying to solve this problem so that it never happens to anyone else we all learn from someone else's experience
I got to see the coach yesterday and am pretty happy. You can darn near fit a tennis ball between the tire and plate now (pic attached). Apparently it just needed an alignment.
I decided to NOT have the plate replaced. Part of the reason for that decision was I didn't want them trying to put a new plate in exactly the same spot and risk being out of alignment with the upper mount. They were willing to explore the possibility of getting a new subframe (which they'd done with another unicoach) but I felt like that was opening the door to different problems for something that is ultimately benign.
The rest of the work they did looks great and it's mostly ready to go home now. The bags I ordered for the front should arrive at the shop sometime next week and they're going to put all four in for $700. After shipping I paid about $600 for the bags. So, four new bags installed up front for $1300. Insurance should reimburse me for one. While they're doing that job, they're going to have a welder build up the lip of the plate that was cut down, mostly for cosmetics.
All in all, it's been a long wait but I'm happy with the work that I can see so far. With a bit of luck I'll get to pick it up the week after next ^.^d
Also, lights had been left on inside and the [residential] fridge running for this whole time and when I checked the app I still had 12 days of juice left in the new house batteries Gillis put in :D
A "regular" alignment (check camber, check/adjust caster and set toe) will NOT affect tire to bag/bag mount clearance unless you make major adjustments to caster.
Ride height and "locator" links and their bushings will.
Are you sure the coach was not plugged in,you said the lights and frige were on for all these weeks and batteries are still good???
Yup. The solar kept everything topped off. I haven't shared my setup yet but a month or so before the Incident I put a small fortune into solar, lithium, inverter, etc...
New way to make a small fortune, give a large fortune to Elliott.
Congratulations on your success, Elliot et Cie. May you and yours have many miles of happy travels.
Possibly these photos may shed some light
Trying to figure this out...guess front airbags are pretty much fully extended in Elliot's last photo? How does it look at ride height?
Full up
Note tape on tire , fender, and airbag mount. Air bag and tire never change position with each other, just position in fender skin opening.
Scott
Ride height
Full down
If anything they were at less than ride height when I took that photo. They had pulled the coach to that spot earlier that morning and it had just been sitting there for half a day. I know I have leaky six packs so it had probably leaked down a bit by then.
Scott very informative photos, thank you. I hope you don't mind, I consolidated your pictures for posterity's sake. Maybe it'll save the next guy some debate and perplexity
I like the pictures but we are looking at the distance with the wheel in the Straight ahead position but you were turning what would be the distance from the tire to the plate while turning . Because the of the tire width and Weight put on that one tire I think that was the problem by cutting the bottom plate would give it the clearance.
Ach. Yes of course. Sure would like to know how they reclaimed this much space through alignment.
So yes when turning the clearance is reduced. I'm running 295-75R 22.5 Toyo tires. Yes they touch but I've yet to polished the paint off the mounts.
Scott
Can't imagine that an alignment ( check camber, check/adjust caster, set toe-in) would materially affect wheel clearance. Yes, assuming caster was not taken way out of spec.
"Links" locating front "H" to body, YES. Bushings from same, YES.
Look forward hearing "how" an alignment would affect clearances. Interesting concept.
So if you remove the entire unsprung assembly below were the bags mount nothing affects the distance from the tire to the bag mount because they are all bolted together as one assembly. With the drag links removed the bushings removed nothing changes. That assembly is centered in the well wells with the drag links and bushing, not the distance to the lower bag mounts. You literally need to unbolt the axle to change the clearance between the wheel and the bag mount. They are mounted rigidly together as a assembly
Scott
So, again, I'm at a loss for how I went from not being able to turn the wheel at all to this abundance of clearance but here's another nugget to ponder: apparently my service advisor at the collision shop drove the coach from there to Freightliner. Obviously this was done before any "alignment", so HOW? I know for a fact that when I was stuck I wasn't able to straighten the wheels. It wasn't even close.
Was the suspension so "loaded" when I was on the uneven terrain that it shifted? And by the time we cut the plate, drove to safer ground, and got out of there, it went back to normal?
The only item subject to changing anything is the axle end "stationary" king pin and spindle. Nothing else moves that would effect tire to bag clearance. And yes I have no clue how the tire was impacted on the the bag mount. Flexed H structure? Flexed axle? I'm Clueless. If the chassis frame was bent it would only effect the upper bag mount on the frame. If the Bushings or drag links were the problem or displaced then the air bag lower mount would be displaced into the structure, and the tire clearance would still remain the same, even if it was pushed six inches into structure. I genuinely hate unsolvable puzzles.
Scott
As Scott said the only thing that could change the distant is the king pin could
something amiss there. I am only speculating as the axel and the lower air bag
supports are welded and bolted together.
I still have no idea how our tire can touch the air bag plate in some attitudes but I can't duplicate it no matter how I try.
Pierce
Scott,
You are correct. Still trying to figure out how this happened, but indeed, the lower air bag mount is attached rigidly to the "unsprung H member"
That's because you're old enough to know better. From what I understand you have to start with your left front wheel on a high spot, and your right rear on a high spot with the other three wheels dangling in mid air.
So last month when I was attempting to get my bubble pump to start I actually operated my coach full hard left lean and full hard right lean. No visual difference in tire to airbag mount and tire to fender well opening. Sorry never got a tire off the ground. I do believe the pictures yet can't understand how. I still would bet that we are looking at the symptoms not the problem? I genuinely enjoy setting up long travel suspensions and finding problems that most never address. One of the top three reasons I like our Foretravel is the out board air ride design. Extremely stable
Scott
She's home! Funny because before the accident she WAS our home.
Despite some serious traffic and incline getting from Phoenix to Prescott, and the 110 degree heat in Wickenberg, it was an uneventful drive and she runs smooth as butter.
I'll follow up later this weekend with the full bill of labor and my thoughts on the shop but tonight we're busy packing to take it to the Grand Canyon tomorrow :D
Glad to see you are back On the road
Did you pack your wife's Tiara? I mean if you aren't treating your wife like a Queen you should be.
Oh, yeah, You aren't planning on driving down any donkey trails, are you?
You deserve some fun time now. Enjoy.
Pierce
Alright, here are the final bills for the repairs. You'll notice some additional work from Freightliner that I originally withheld until things were sorted out with insurance. By and large, I was happy with the shop and would recommend them to other Foretravel owners in the Phoenix area (they had two other Unicoaches too). The quality of work and thoroughness was great, the wait time and communication left some to be desired. As you can tell, they did a great job of making sure *everything* that could possibly have been impacted by the accident was inspected and repaired ;D
My out of pocket ended up being:
- $574.68 for four new bags (they let me buy my own and ship to them). Not needed but I knew they were coming due
- $530 to install the bags (insurance covered labor for one of them)
[/list]
They also washed the entire rig, clean my wheels and tires, and cleaned the inside for me, which was a nice touch. They had the rig aired up and cooled down inside for me when I picked it up too.
I've put about 350 mile on it since picking it up last Thursday and all is well. Out of paranoia, I stopped periodically during the first couple days of driving just to make sure all tires were clearing the bags but they were always good to go.
From a financial perspective, I came out ahead in this whole ordeal. From a well-being/stress perspective it was definitely a net loser. Thanks for talking me through it as it has evolved, it has once again been a show of just how valuable this forum is to the FT brand.
So we did attempt the North Carolina driveway. I have added a switchable ground for the HWH so as to be able to lock in manual adjust to stop control of the ride height system and operate with parking brake released. Entered driveway at ride height position and front raised to 90% high then transitioned threw to front 90% down and rear 90% up and then rolled to right to 100% available. Once we got out of transition turned ride height control back on without issue. Second half of the driveway will be leaving on Tuesday. Also chance of rain to add to the issues. Good fun. So far. Coached parked in driveway requires left front at full up and right rear down flat. But made a perfect level for coach
Watch those windshield, your living in dangerous territory. Glad it worked for you
Chris
We've stayed in many RV parks where the terrain required similar contortions to achieve level parking. Makes you really appreciate the capability of the HWH leveling system. When we park in a spot with the nose of our coach raised to max height, other campers come by and stare in amazement. GVs especially look very impressive with the front end sticking up in the stratosphere. 8)
Yes, but with the ride height deactivated Ive been aware not to mechanically excessively load the coach up against the stops. I know there is a fine line I'm walking.
Scott
Cool, We go the other way, always dumped almost to the snubbers when possible. Makes it easier to get in and out, but mostly because it looks cool slammed like a bagged hot rod!
Cheers
Chris
Function over form. Dropped for arthritis in knees! Baby moons over the rear tires for aerodynamics, and because it looks like it belongs on the salt flats. Wonder if the would fit over the fronts?
Twist & Lock Aero Wheel Covers, Polished Stainless for Dual Wheel Axles 4PK (https://www.iowa80.com/pd/twist-lock-aero-wheel-covers-polished-stainless-for-dual-wheel-axles-4pk/294936/)
Agreed.
We have parked where achieving level required the curb side of the coach to be raised full up. When it's sitting like that and we step out of the coach, it's a LONG way down from the bottom step to terra firma.
Aren't those full moons?
Bring boards.