I'm looking for my first coach and am hoping to end up finding the right deal on a Foretravel but there aren't a lot of them to choose from in my price range ($75k max, hopefully a fair bit less). As a 40 something working full time +++, my usage (hopefully) will be mostly a bunch of 2-3 day weekends relatively close to home along with a couple of longer trips each year.
In addition to Foretravel I've been strongly considering Alpine and have started looking at American and Country Coach a little more closely as well. (Haven't ruled out Beaver, Newmar, Tiffin and a couple others either)
So, if you could't be in a Foretravel, what Mfg would you most likely be driving?
I would take any Newmar or Country Coach if it had a great pedigree.
If you don't need a slide out, $50k will buy you a lot of Foretravel. $75k will get you something with a slide, that probably needs some work, from MOT.
Stay way away from Alpine. Out of business for one. But we had a few of them at a RV dealer I worked at. I was the inventory manager (took care of all of the coaches, checking them in, photos for online,getting them PDI's etc.) I can't remember how many work orders I wrote up on them, just sitting on the lot unsold.They were brand new coaches.
Then it got so bad, they sent them back to the factory to be fixed. I had to go to the factory and inspect them when they were done, before we would take them back.
Find a nice Foretravel for $50K, hold back $20K for repairs. You'll be money ahead.Yes, it will be hard,, as close as anyone guess, there are maybe 2000 bus style (flat front) FT's, from roughly 1995-2003.
Chris
Another GM 41xx series 35 foot conversion, a 35 foot Dina, Eagle or Neoplan bus conversion with no hydraulic fans. Minimum 5 speed manual with CL or Roadranger Super 10.
If Europe and Mexico can build them without hydraulics, so can we. Even the wide Detroit goes in the Dina with a belt only fan drive. See examples below and these are only 96" wide.
I love our interior and would not change much. Front entry would give more room for a sofa bed to watch TV on the rear wall. Trade off though.
Pierce
Thanks for your view on Alpine coaches Chris, I'm a little surprised to hear it TBH. It seems like Alpine coaches garner a lot of praise from their owners. (Maybe second only to Foretravel from what I've seen) They've got a really active forum of helpful owners, similar to this one, they're reputed to have a very well designed chassis and are said to be the best driving coaches in the business. So it seems like once the new-coach wrinkles are ironed out, as long as it's a model with a great engine/tranny combo, Alpine would be as good of a choice as any?
The "out of business" part applies to many nice coaches, the last major recession was hard on the business it seems. If I was to rule out all of them, that would narrow down the options quite a bit in my budget range.
I don't know that I actually need a slide, I've just been under the impression that non-slide coaches have gone the way of the dodo and that nobody wants them, and the more the merrier. Almost every newer coach out there over 35' seems to have at least 3 now.
I'll search here for pros and cons of a slide model, maybe I can find a few threads on the topic that will help educate me a little more.
I've seen this theme/theory repeated a few times and it's a little disconcerting for a prospective first time coach buyer. A nice $50,000, high quality coach like Foretravel shouldn't need $20,000 in repairs. Maybe over the next decade, but certainly not right out of the gate. Unless it's a $75,000 coach being sold for $50,000 because of all the work it needs.
Are older Foretravel coaches more likely to need such a large reserve for repairs due to all of the sophisticated systems they come equipped with?
Yes, the difference is you have this forum to lean on and multiple shops in Nac that are knowledgeable in Foretravels. When I twisted my suspension a few weeks ago "off roading", it was minutes not days before I had responses to my questions.
Sounds like you are asking the questions, but don't like the answers you are getting......Interesting
I have been in the RV industry 55 yrs, owned all types of RV's. The saying is..."You have a RV, so you have a problem, you just don't know what it is yet"
If you think your going to buy any used 10-20 yr old diesel pusher, especially one that is out of business for $50K,or even $75K and drive off into the sunset happy, and with no issues, you will be a lucky man.
It's much more then just the engine and transmission that make a coach.
Goodluck on your venture
Cheers
Chris
A '97/98 Vogue V 45'
Mike
I've been in the saltwater boat business for almost 20 years, I suspect it has some similarities. I'm not oblivious to the fact that older machines may require some repair and maintenance.
I don't dislike the answers I'm getting, I really appreciate them. But I'm a little surprised that it seems to be more the exception than the rule that you might buy a used Foretravel and have a relatively trouble free experience. I suspected that they'd be less problematic than some of their less expensive counterparts but I suppose it could be that the more features a coach has, the more there is to go wrong.
I had never heard of Foretravel a couple of years ago, never had a clue I needed a Motorhome till my wife told me what her retirement plans for me were going to be so I started looking at different brand coaches including Alpine and the more I learned and what I could afford lead me to Foretravel for build quality, affordability, capacity, safety. All wheel disc brakes and a transmission retarder makes good sense to me. 10k tow capacity for my toys. Just keep deleting what I didn't want till I isolated what I did want. I'm sure there are better coaches but they don't hold much interest to my needs. Luckily for me I knew Kim would never let me upgrade down the road so I stayed the course till I found what would work for me. Was starting to think I had worked myself into a unattainable corner till good people on this great forum found my coach for me. As much as I like my coach this forum is what makes it possible and work for me.
Scott
I think it is wise to have some cash for whatever may pop up while using a coach. I was told that 10K was a good amount to bankroll.
Being new to the Foretravel, I found that the best way for me to keep the money in the bank was to do the work myself. Over 3 years, we have had a refrigerator rebuild that was done at MOT. I have replaced both air conditioners and the thermostat. I just replaced my inverter due to the power issues or the great Texas freeze and am about to replace the Manabloc. I haven't a clue what that would add up to if a shop billed it but the parts used in the process ate a hole in 10K. If you take the coach to MOT for a chassis service and fluids/filters it is $2.5K. I choose to keep it closer to $200 by doing it myself. I have found that the way the coach is made, it is really easy to maintain and repair with help from those that went before me and posted their experience on the forum.
Just now I looked at the forum classifieds and saw 3 coaches that were in the price range you stated. I don't personally know the owners but 2 of them have posted a lot of the upgrades and repairs that they have done and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase either of their coaches.
We had a Bluebird prior to getting this Foretravel and it was not anywhere as user friendly as our present coach.
Good luck in your quest and I hope you find a coach good enough to be your last one.
Glen
It has little to do with the complexity.
$50K, which is not a large budget in the RV world, buys you a 25-30 year old Foretravel. It may or may not have been well-maintained - everyone is different. The well-maintained ones with owner service records and documentation will cost you more. It's the ones that lack that provenance that you need to have a more substantial reserve budget for. A 25-30 year old vehicle is either going to require work OR higher price because someone has already done that work.
$10K per year is not unreasonable if a coach has not been updated. It's high just for maintenance, but if you keep the coach for 10+ years and factor in upgrades there are definitely going to be years you hit (and exceed) that number. Not every year, but in our 13 years of FT ownership I believe we averaged out somewhere around $7-8K per year with all work included. That included repairs, remodeling, etc. That number is not unique in the diesel pusher world.
Vogue V is class ride, almost bought one in 2006.
I don't know what a Vogue is but this listing says Mfg. is Vogue. Is this similar to what you're talking about?
Prima Vista Class A RV for sale in Rogersville, AL for ,500 | 237026 (https://www.poprvs.com/class-a-rvs-for-sale/vogue-prima-vista-40-in-rogersville-alabama-237026?C=896859)
Chris,
I agree if you are talking about the last years of production where two things (actually, two BAD things) happened: $$ running out AND they thought that complexity= better marketability.
The early 2000's, and particularly the 2003 were actually pretty good coaches. The 2003 a standout because first year of the Cummins ISL with engine compression brake and last year before multiplex wiring.
Good suspensions designed by Gary Jones, one of the stand outs in motorhome chassis design. Only one I know who made 4 wheel position ride height valve suspensions work-- and they do.
SWFL, Most of the issues that would eat up that $20K set aside, Generally have nothing to do with the actual Foretravel coach.
6 tires $3K
3 start batteries and 3 house batteries. $2k (From O'reilly's)
1 failed Allison shift pad. $1k
1 warped M11 exhaust manifold. $800 plus labor
Failed Aqua Hot, factory rebuild $7-$10K
Change trans to synthetic oil. $1K
stuck slide pin on brakes req two new disc's. $3k
Cracked Manabloc. $1k
That's the story on my 1998 coach.
The thing is. NONE of the above systems failures are because of shoddy build quality by Foretravel.
None of systems that Foretravel built on my coach have failed. The cabinets, Gel coat fiberglass. Etc, Etc are still solid.
The biggest issue with ANY old coach are the shoddy maint practices of prior owners.
Having a slide is a personal choice. I never wanted one. Having been in the boat business you know what you are getting in for.
As everyone said the Forum is a wealth of information.
I would be looking at a Prevost/ Liberty or Prevost/ Marathon, I also would not be afraid of a Bluebird Wanderlodge, if it had low mileage and good records. Maintenance records are the one of the best ways to evaluate a coach. ^.^d
Mitchell Coach Works was bought out by Featherlight coach conversions about 78-79 very high end coaches Prima Vista, then Vogue where their last models.
You already have your answers. Same thing only different. Saltwater boats are way more effort. Drives aren't going to corrode and fall off on the coach. But twenty year old anything hi end will have issues. I disqualified the 20 old SOB coaches because they are actually falling apart. The Foretravel interior are definitely Dated but yet still beautiful and going to be in great shape. These are heavy coaches with good design. Out side mounted airbags are outstanding, but their 20 years old now. You will eventually change fuel lines. Same age. All rubber products are same as a boat and at the end of there life. Just like tires. My coach was low mileage and parked for years. Crazy it still needed everything. IMO well worth repairing, restoring, maintaining. Just like your boats, some you save and some you scuttle. Drivability has a huge value to me, the ISM works pretty good. I always chuckle a little passing the SOBs in the wind or uphill. 👍👍
Scott
For about $50K don't buy anything but a Foretravel. Depending on how handy you are and a bit of luck within a year you may or may not spend $10-20K. I purchased my first FT in about an hour and within first 2 years for want/need projects I put in $20K without any reservations. Done about the same with my second (current one)
I would buy any used Foretravel that is out there for sale now by doing my own inspection (about 45 min), if the asking price is within $3-4K of what I am willing to pay for it. Just as long as I am able and willing to spend 10-20K for it without any pain.
Now there are many ways to spend $10-20K after purchase. Let's say it needs a new fridge, you can do it yourself for under $2K or have it done for you for about $4-5K. At your home when your toilet tank is starting to run none stop, do you call a plumber or do you fix it yourself.
Good luck and hope you will find a good one that will serve you well.
Thanks for the input propman. I can fix almost anything myself, be it structural, electrical, plumbing, mechanical, cosmetic, and I also have a service team (marine) with lots of bright minds and specialized tools at my disposal. And I do have funds in reserve of course, regardless of purchase price. I wouldn't consider buying a used RV with my last dollar and then hoping nothing goes wrong, that would be pretty foolish.
As I read more and more about RV's it's becoming apparent that there is definitely some extra expense and upkeep associated with owning a Foretravel vs a little less optioned diesel pusher. I'm not going to let that scare me away, but I will take it in to consideration as I shop. I've also read many, many stories of happy owners of many different brands who bought an older used coach, similar to what I'm considering, and haven't had a never ending string of failures to deal with. Many who have had nothing but nickel and dime annoyances and maintenance to take care of for years. And many of them were running much less expensive brands with much lower initial quality.
We waited until we could find a Foretravel without a slide, less to go wrong, less weight, a floor plan not blocked by the slide when it was in, just did not need the extra space, so no I do not think the non slide has gone the way of the dodo from buyers perspective, manufacturers I don't know or care what they do.
Find what you want and buy it
I agree you will need $20,000 to spend on components you want to upgrade and that probably goes for just about any older coach unless you are paying absolute top dollar, then there is the money for the cosmetics. It's still cheaper than buying a new Tiffin!
Good luck, we love our 22 year old 36' no slide: it's awesome!
If I wanted a 45' coach I'd look for a 90-96 Newell, these will be non-slides. In 97 they started with 1 slide and 1998 started with 2 slides. Occasionally you can find a nicely maintained one in your price range. But they are rare.
I didn't want a slide, adds too much complexity for the gain
No slide, no hole in the side of the buss!
I like pulling in anywhere, and not needing to put the slide out which says "Hey we are camping here". Same with satellite dish that doesn't have to be deployed.
Have stayed in some places in big cities like San Diego overnight, that really don't want you parking there.
We like to fly under the radar!
As a tech, 4 X slides, 4 times possible issues. Every time I have to deploy one, I hold my breath it will come back in.
Chris
California allows 72 hours in one spot but more and more cities like San Diego forbid it or try and restrict it as much as possible. We have had notices put on the windshield about what can happen, and how the vehicle could be impounded.
We live in the Sierras and if we had a slide, every minute or two, we would have to pull it up a hill or use more brakes/Jake to slow the extra weight down. We flex enough that we don't need any more body twisting that comes with slides.
And yes, what do you do when you push that button and the slide won't move?
If we were flatlanders and went RV park to park, we might consider it if full timing but our non-slide 36 is perfect for what we use it for.
Pierce
"I also have a service team (marine) with lots of bright minds and specialized tools at my disposal. " Humm :D Can you help me with my Pontoon deck, j/k :)
PM sent. (we are a large pontoon dealer so I may just be able to help in some capacity)
Older Foretravels are "less" sophisticated than most new $100K RV's. They were more expensive because they were built to a high standard.
After you research a while. One can see that there is one big area of concern for so many RV's. Build quality.
Next is water leaks and this also applies to new ones. As shoddy workmanship goes hand in hand with water leaks.
Lastly is the inane useless gadgetry installed just for the sake of bragging. I do not need a bluetooth controlled toilet that detects disease as it flushes.
This goes for low and high end coaches. Soft touch switches and Bluetooth, WiFi gadgetry are buggy and nearly impossible to rebuild on the road. I know because it was a soft touch switch on my shift pad that left us stranded on I-5 waiting on a tow that cost $1,700.
Positive rocker switches are reliable, Can be rebuilt or cleaned (to a point) and are generally way cheaper to replace.
The biggest reason for nearly any make of car to go back into a dealership for warranty work has to do with electronic issues.
When we say to keep 20 k in reserve for repairs that doesn't mean that they will be needed but they may be needed. It really just goes along with how well the coach has been maintained by previous owners. When I was looking for my coach I was told that I should look between a 96 and a 2001 and that's what I did. I knew I wanted a lithium battery setup. I found a fairly well maintained no slide coach that had the airbags new tires new windows , a professionally installed victron lithium battery and inverter system lots of solar on the roof and a high end mppt controller. There were problems though the previous owner had cats and the cats clawed their way completely over pilot and co-pilot chairs. The tile floor was cracked, the Corian countertops were dated and yellowed, the bed mattress was original, and a host of other things that I could have lived with but chose not to. I don't know how much I put into the coach since I purchased it and I really don't want to know. I'll never get that money back. But I had Villa International build two new captains chairs, I replace the flooring I replace the lighting I replace the countertops in the sink I redid the plumbing and added a good filtration system and the direct cell, I did maintenance on the engine and generator, I replaced all the fuel lines, I replaced the microwave I put in a new surround sound system and 55 inch TV as well as a new head unit an amplifier and subwoofer. I did some other things that I can't remember. I went to Mexico and had to coach painted as well as the car to match it, I replace the Start batteries. All this added up.oh and a rebuilt steering box.
I'm pretty sure you can find a decent coats 50 to 60,000 but it will need some work. It might need a lot of work at might need just refurbishing the interior it might not need anything at all for a while. The truth is so you came to the Foretravel forums so most of us are biased towards them. I was recently in a multi slide country coach. It was not for me. It might be for you. I'm sure it's a good coach it just didn't appeal to me. Who wouldn't want a Prevost? But then who would want to maintain it? And you're not going to find one in decent shape on that price range. I like the amount of storage that I have in it you're not going to find that in a bluebird or wanderlodge I don't think. The only thing I think I would rather have other than my coach would be a sprinter van and that's the only because I think I would like it but I'm pretty sure I would find it too small going to have to get rid of most of my tools. I think that you could be happy with almost any kind of coach and unhappy with almost any kind of coach. Just roll the dice. You may have a coach inspected by someone knowledgeable who says that's a great coach and still have problems down the road. But since you have the knowledge and skill to do some of the work yourself that will go a long way and making your coach what you want it to be. Foretravels come up for sale frequently. Take your time. But good ones sell quick. Buy from a owner if possible.
Good luck.
Bob
Hyatt Regency,Hill Country.
I can't stop laughing, almost wet myself (can I say that? )
:-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Chris
We got the low end model,bluetooth but no desease detection.
I'd go without.
Edited to explain. I researched for 2 years finding nothing that had the quality I wanted. Then I found this forum and spent a year reading and learning.
This forum is the great resource for classic FT coaches. I was able to by a well sorted, updated, full body paint coach, on this forum. The fully documented coach was on its way to MOT. I called and reserved it with a $1,000 deposit pending an inspection by our own Brett Wolf.
We put 40K miles on the coach in 4 years without one mechanical problem....yet. The money we've spent is just upkeep and changes we chose to make.
I can't imagine traveling like this with another 28 year old coach.
Even if you have no DIY skills all you have to do is walk into one of these coaches to see the inherent quality. Be sure to look under the cabin fit and finish. As amazing as the interior is, what is behind the curtain is the difference when considering a more modern coach.
Is there such a thing as a bluetooth bog? I was mostly being absurd to illustrate the absurdity of nonsensical electronic gadgetry just for the sake of being gadgetryish. A Rube Goldbergian device comes to mind. Solving a non problem.
No turbo turd 2000 for bigdog.
Didn't mean to get off track.
Given your situation, as a part timer using RV only several times per year, I would either get a small pre-owned bumper pull/fifth wheel if I already had a truck/SUV capable of pulling it, or a relatively small Class C like Lazy Daze.
If you won't be traveling and RVing 4 to 12 months per year, start small.
I would definitely agree with Dan. If it's mostly for weekends with an occasional longer trip, start small - either truck and trailer or class C you don't necessarily need to pull a toad with. That's what we started with (a Lazy Daze). I will warn you though, used LD's are scarcer than hens' teeth right now. The factory has never build more than 50 per year, and they aren't currently taking new orders. They do, however, have an outstanding forum just like this one ;)
Thanks for the advice. I do have a 3/4 ton truck capable of pulling whatever I need. The draw of a class A DP is a combination of the ability to take the dog, walk to the back while on the road and relax, and the bonus of having a getaway home in the event of another landfalling hurricane in my region. And also maybe the convenience of having a guest house parked in the driveway...You're probably right, a diesel pusher might only be logical for full timers or retired folks...
"a diesel pusher might only be logical for full timers or retired folks..." You forgot Rock Stars, people on this forum are Rock Stars :-)
I'm not so sure. I have heard that saying quite often when I was looking to buy.
Yet, in reality. All the issues with the bigdog coach have had to do with ancillary systems that are common to both petrol & diesel powered rigs.
Aqua-Hot needed rebuilding. Brake pins were stuck requiring new brake rotors. Tires aged out and bought new ones. Same for the Batteries. Alternator stop alternating. Allison shift pad went dark requiring a tow. None of those are DP related
For the DP portion. I have ran an overhead (valve adjustment) during an oil change early in my ownership. But that's only needed every 100K-120K miles. There is more oil to change. But that is rather a minor thing.
If you don't use a vehicle very much the cost per mile is expensive. If you use it a lot the cost per mile is much less. The actual cost doesn't vary, though. You will still replace tires every 5-7 years. Tires on a towable will be a LOT less than a MH.
ANY RV can be used as a guest room or escape vehicle. The catch is how much work it takes to get it ready for either job. If you are able to keep it plugged in and have the ability to dump, you are pretty much ready to use it at any time. Part of the reasoning for the MH for us was that it is completely self-contained, with plenty of water and a generator. Some fifth wheels have propane-powered generators, but few will have the tank capacity of a Foretravel. DRV is one, but your 3/4 ton truck won't handle one.
We've actually packed up and left within an hour when a flood was coming. You aren't going to be able to outrun a tornado, but hurricanes generally give plenty of warning to pack up and leave in plenty of time.
Since someone mentioned a Class C: I also think you should consider this. We recently bought a 2004 Chinook Glacier 24' with slide and really like it. It's not a Foretravel (ride quality, overall comfort, etc.) - but we believe it is of similar quality. One-piece fiberglass shell for the house, great quality cabinetry and furnishings. Ford E450 chassis, which is supposed to be very reliable.
Amanda will drive this one, but not comfortable driving the bus. And this one allows us to go to some places that the U295 would be a little tougher or impossible (Chisos Basin in Big Bend, for example).
Tough as heck to find one, however. We happened across this one through a friend - it never hit the market.
Born Free RVs are a good compromise when you are looking for something smaller. They have been out of business for a bit but an excellent quality Class C and especially for a cold climate. I sold a new one to friends and they were very happy. Lots of room with the slide and on something that small, you do need a slide.
I would stay away from the Ford diesels. Everyone I know has had head gasket issues. My neighbor had his overheat across the street from the Ford dealer. They fixed it for over $7000 and when an injector went out the next week, they wanted over $2500 to replace injectors. He had a friend do it for a little over $250. ford diesel head gasket problems - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=ford+diesel+head+gasket+problems)
The old 7.3 Fords with the upgraded head bolts were pretty bulletproof. But that's history.
Pierce
This holds true for the old 6.0 and 6.4 diesel engines but the new 6.7 is incredibly stout and long-lived if properly maintained, particularly so after 2013 (the first couple years had turbo issues)
The 7.3 is quickly becoming a collectors item for it's reliability. You can count on it to run forever and you can count on it to leak a ton of oil every step of the way.
They seem much better in the later years of the 6.7. 6.7L Ford Power Stroke Engine Common Problems (http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/top-5-6-7l-ford-power-engine-common-problems/)
I've still got at Dealer's Diesel Turbo 7.3 with Getrag 5 speed (OD 5th) sitting and waiting for a new home. I put it in our old SOB and it was great. Since it's mechanical, only a very few wires to connect. Even the glow plug timer is mounted on the engine. I pulled the big fuel filter/fuel heater/etc off the block and got rid of it. A simple NAPA secondary mounted on the firewall did the trick.
Pierce
I second a Born Free, I downsized into one a couple years ago. We love it and it is simple and we use it for only one long trip a year now and shorter trips. I have over370K in my FTs over the 17 years of ownership and have ben in the coach for more than 6 months of a year many years. I will say that the Born Free is way cheaper to run and operate too.
SWFL, first and foremost pick a floorplan that you can live with, whether a trailer, 5th wheel or Class A or C. Next, decide what MUST haves you want. If your not happy with whatever you buy, it probably wont get any better in a year or two.
For us, we found the floorplan, the MUST HAVES (for me quality), nonslide and 36'. One thing not mentioned in this line but what I was told when looking, buy your last coach first. Glad I did. If I were to get another coach, it would definitely be a FT if for no other reason I know the company behind it is still in business, along with some other great ones, and this forum and the people on it. There hasn't been much that I haven't been able to fix with their knowledge and help.
Just my 2 cents worth. You get what you paid for in my comments.
Larry
In my opinion, finding and buying a coach that you like within your budget is only the first problem solved. The others will show up soon after no matter what brand you buy. We have traveled, part timed, full timed, and worked out of several different brands of coaches over the last 20 years. Based on experience, we would NEVER AGAIN buy a coach that does not have an active, knowledgeable forum dedicated to that brand. Obviously, Foretravel is one. Wanderlodge is another. Prevost too, although a lot of Prevost owners have deeper pockets than I. Newell used to have an active board but I think it has slowed down a lot. There may be others but I am not aware of them. An active knowledgeable board is worth more than a super deal, having a shop you like down the street, or having deep pockets. We own a Wanderlodge now but shopped Foretravels before we bought it. This board is the reason. If we trade, we will look at Foretravels & Prevost again. Look at the support before you even consider the coach.
TOM
Tom you may be thinking of the old Newell forum that is basically defunct now. Newellgurus.com is very active with great info and very well organized with multiple groups which make searching much easier. Since there aren't nearly as many Newells built as FT's the volume won't be as much as this.
Thanks! I didn't know about that. Of course, I've been busier than a one toothed beaver in a pine thicket so I haven't had a lot of time to spend window shopping. I'll add the link to my collection. ;D
TOM