Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: WS6_Keith on April 27, 2021, 04:43:34 pm
Title: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on April 27, 2021, 04:43:34 pm
Hey guys, we just got back from our first boon docking trip in the U320 and had a great time! I got her put away and plugged in last night, came out this morning and heard a beeping. The Xantrex control panel showed a fault, F9 Battery Voltage Too High. Before we left, I had noticed that the panel showed 16.0V for the batteries at one point. Today, they were showing 15.8V.
Looking through the manual, there is no adjustment available for the max voltage for charging. You can change the amp limit, but not the target voltage. My battery bank is 3 x Lifeline 8D's at 255Ah for 765Ah total. Using their calculation (Total Ah / 5 for max output), the charger will put out the maximum 150A to the batteries. The only setting I can change is the max charge rate, which is a % of the 150A charging capability.
With some searching online, I found a manual for the newer Xantrex SW 3012, which does have some voltage limits that are user adjustable. I called Xantrex and these are not available for my older SW 3000. Their solution is to upgrade the inverter/charger and control panel with new components. ::)
For now I've turned the max charge rate down to 75%, to see if that has an affect. The inverter had already disabled the charging system, so I guess I won't know until I unplug from AC power, let the batts run down a little and then plug it back in.
Anything else I should be looking into?
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: MisterEd on April 27, 2021, 05:03:06 pm
For starters, check the voltage at the house batteries with a meter. If your charger is bringing them up to 16V the batteries will be ruined in short order. If that's the case, you should turn off the charger and put your house batteries on an automatic charger until the problem is resolve. No need to by a new inverter AND house batteries.
Greg
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on April 27, 2021, 05:08:44 pm
I know nothing about Xantrex but I would think there would be some place to set a "target" voltage setting for each charging stage. You have looked through the manual and don't see it, so I'm not saying you are wrong. Just seems like a strange thing to omit from the programing capability.
Our Magnum MS2812 program mode has a place to create a custom battery type, or I can select from the built-in types. Each battery type has limits on the voltage in each charging stage. Are you sure your Xantrex does not have this capability?
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: craneman on April 27, 2021, 05:15:08 pm
The Lifelines equalize at that voltage do you have auto equalize set up? Read below. It takes 6 to 8 hours and can be done 3 times if necessary.
Can I equalize AGM batteries? - Lifeline Batteries (https://lifelinebatteries.com/2015/10/can-i-equalize-agm-batteries/)
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: wolfe10 on April 27, 2021, 05:17:09 pm
If you have it properly programmed and it is doing that (including verification that you don't have it set to equalization) next thing I would do if you have a battery temperature sensor probe is unplug it from the inverter/charger. No real reason to suspect it, but an easy thing to do.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on April 27, 2021, 08:34:37 pm
I got a tip from my FIL that the two cigarette lighters in the dash are each on a different bank. The left is on the chassis batteries and the right is on the house batteries. I have gauges in those and I do see 0.2VDC variance there vs. on the Xantrex display, but that seems to be consistent, whether the batteries are 16.0 or 11.8.
The options in the Xantrex are Flooded, AGM, Gel or OEM Factory Config. The manual says there should be a "custom" option, but it's not in the menu. Based on my conversation with Xantrex earlier, I believe that's a config that they or a dealer can set, but I cannot.
As for equalization, while Lifeline says you can equalize them, the manual says equalization is disabled by default, and it is on my SCP as well. The Xantrex manual also states if you are to equalize, to remove all loads that go directly to the battery to keep from having high voltage issues.
The battery temp probe seems to be fairly accurate. Right now it's showing and 76* and the ambient temps are in the mid 60's.
I've only owned the coach for about a month, and I'm sure the previous owner didn't mess with this at all. He had it about a year.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Old Toolmaker on April 27, 2021, 09:47:24 pm
If this is the correct manual for your Xantrex SW 3000,
Here's the manual and relevant pages.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on April 28, 2021, 01:45:42 pm
Thanks, that is the manual I have.
As an update, I did set the max charge rate to 75% yesterday. I went out there this morning and the batts were showing 16.0v on the Xantrex panel (15.8 on my dash cig lighter display), and the Xantrex was beeping the voltage too high fault again. Unit was in Bypass mode.
I'm at a loss as to what to do to keep it from charging the batteries so high every day.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on April 28, 2021, 01:53:14 pm
Charge rate is just max amps. If it is at 16 volts you are damaging the batteries. It should be closer to 13.4-13.8v.
Shut it off. Wait for a day, put some loads on the house batteries, then one and measure voltage at the batteries. Should be around 12.7v.
Something is not right, maybe a bad charger or maybe a bad battery. Don't cook the batteries while you figure it out.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Jack Lewis on April 28, 2021, 02:08:37 pm
From my experience I would say your batteries are bad. How old are they? What type? Can you get them tested? It may be time to just replace them, as you know not how they were maintained in the past. Your Xantrex 3000 is a good unit, and probably does not need to be replaced.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on April 28, 2021, 02:35:54 pm
The batteries are Lifeline GPL-8DL x 3 installed less than 4 years ago (6-26-2017). Coach has 18k on it since they were installed.
Everything worked fine for the last few weeks since we purchased the coach, and worked great boon docking last weekend. The coach would go a day and a half before the auto gen start would fire and charge the batteries. There is also a solar charger and two panels that charges the batteries, but it's supposed to go to float above 13.5V and according to it's lights, it is. 9.x amps is the max I've seen it put out.
I've disabled the charger function of the inverter and turned off the gen auto start. Voltage was at 15.4. The coach is plugged in, so all loads should be handled by the inverter from AC. We'll see what the batteries show tomorrow morning.
ETA: I called Lifeline and they also feel the Xantrex charger is malfunctioning to get to those voltages. They basically said the batteries are passive and cannot request voltage, so if they are being over charged, it's because the charger is doing it.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Old Toolmaker on April 28, 2021, 06:00:34 pm
As an update, I did set the max charge rate to 75% yesterday. I went out there this morning and the batts were showing 16.0v on the Xantrex panel (15.8 on my dash cig lighter display), and the Xantrex was beeping the voltage too high fault again. Unit was in Bypass mode.
I'm at a loss as to what to do to keep it from charging the batteries so high every day.
Well the first thing you could try is setting the Equalize voltage to 13.2V and see what comes out.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Jack Lewis on April 28, 2021, 07:57:28 pm
This is the instructions for your remote panel. You may only be in the basic menu. Page 5.5 of this manual discusses the advanced menu that will let you load defaults. Make sure you have enabled AGM setting and set the proper size of your battery bank.
I use to have a Xantrex SW3000 with lifelines, and remember the settings being confusing, until I got comfortable with the basic and advanced menus.
I would go to the advanced menu and reset to the defaults. Then make sure AGM is selected. Then set the size of your battery bank for the 8Ds you are using. 3 8D Lifelines when new were 3@255ah=765ah. Now a more realistic setting might be 720 to 750 for 3 Lifelines.
Various firmware versions for the remote and for the SW3000 may have slightly different menus than the original manuals. Firmware can only be updated at authorized Xantrex service centers. I do not recommend updating the firmware, however, instead spend time learning the menus.
The YouTube videos on the Xantrex control panel will be done with newer firmware than your unit. However, they may help get you comfortable navigating the menus.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on April 28, 2021, 09:38:41 pm
Old Toolmaker, Lifeline says to equalize the batteries at 15.5-16.3V. The equalize feature is turned off in my setup.
Jack Lewis, I definitely have the advanced menus enabled and have it set for AGM and 765Ah, per my bank.
Another call to Xantrex today and the tech suggested a "hard reset," so I'm going to try that tonight. Disconnect AC and DC power completely for 30 minutes and see what it does after that.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Old Toolmaker on April 28, 2021, 10:25:27 pm
Old Toolmaker, Lifeline says to equalize the batteries at 15.5-16.3V. The equalize feature is turned off in my setup.
Another call to Xantrex today and the tech suggested a "hard reset," so I'm going to try that tonight. Disconnect AC and DC power completely for 30 minutes and see what it does after that.
Yes, But. If you set the equalizing charge voltage to 13.2V you eliminate that function as a reason for the too high voltage. By any measure, there are three charge rates, Bulk, Absorption and Float, 14.4, 13.6 and 13.2 volts DC. Bulk: 4 hours. Absorption: a long while. Float: Forever.
FWIW, I draw myself a map similar to the AAA strip maps to guide me through the menu tree.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on April 28, 2021, 11:00:04 pm
I agree with what you have above except that the equalization is turned off, so it doesn't matter what it is set for. It's a manual only process that I'm not using. It only goes through bulk, absorption and float.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Old Toolmaker on April 29, 2021, 07:38:57 am
I agree with what you have above except that the equalization is turned off, so it doesn't matter what it is set for. It's a manual only process that I'm not using. It only goes through bulk, absorption and float.
This is where we have a difference of opinion. For me, just because the software is in the off position doesn't mean that the machine really is turned off. Relays stick, silicon controlled rectifiers fail closed. In this household, we have good reason to not switch power with SCRs, and it has to do with the SCR failure mode.
Good luck with the hard reset! It's your last, best hope before replacement.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: John44 on April 29, 2021, 10:05:27 am
Think I would go with Roger on this one,don't cook the batteries trying to figure it out.Try disconnecting the batteries and test each one seperately,do you have access to a different charger,charge the batteries with it and see how they charge.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on April 29, 2021, 06:48:38 pm
Followup after the hard reset - Day 1:
I was very skeptical, but this seems to have worked. I removed AC power, turned off the salesman switch and then disconnected the house bank from the inverter for 30+ minutes. Once I connected everything back up, I put the Xantrex back into operational mode and the inverter came on. Had about 12.7V and everything worked. I left the AC disconnected for the night.
Came out this morning and it's still showing 12.6V. About noon it was still showing 12.6V. I plugged in the AC and it went into bulk charge. Bulk brought the voltage up to 14.4V. It then went into absorption and maxed out at 14.6V before going into float. It's now sitting in float at 13.6V.
I'll keep an eye on it and report back if anything changes, but things are looking up.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on May 02, 2021, 08:19:58 pm
Follow up Day 4:
Checking on the batteries day 2 and 3 found it floating at 13.8V or so. Now I'm thinking RIGHT ON!
Come out this morning and it's showing 15.9V. The Xantrex is in float, so I don't understand what is going on. I head around to the electrical bay and the solar charger is showing battery full (>13.5V per their manual) but also showing 4.2 amps. I pulled the fuse and went back inside and now the Xantrex SCP is showing 13.8V floating.
So perhaps all along I've been fighting the solar charger. It's a Sunforce / Coleman 30 amp charger: 30 Amp, 12-Volt Digital Solar Charge Controller - SunForce Products Inc. (http://sunforceproducts.com/products/30-amp-12-volt-digital-solar-charge-controller-2/)
Anyone have a recommendation for a QUALITY controller?
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Mark D on May 02, 2021, 08:42:52 pm
Check the temperature sensor. If it's disconnected or shorted it could make the system think the batteries are very cold.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Jack Lewis on May 02, 2021, 10:06:49 pm
Tell Bay Marine you belong to FT Forum for a possible discount.
Note also the value in the Victron SmartSolar 30 amp over the BlueSolar as the SmartSolar gives you an app to do settings and see readouts on your phone, so there is no need to run a remote panel. This controller is designed for up to 440 watts of solar panels. You may want to upgrade to the 50 amp model for future expansion up to 700 watts for about $100 more.
Victron SmartSolar MPPT 100/30 Solar Charge Controller with Built-In Bluetooth (https://baymarinesupply.com/victron-smartsolar-mppt-100-30-charge-controller.html)
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Roger & Susan in Home2 on May 02, 2021, 10:29:02 pm
If you are ordering on line from Bay Marine Supply use the coupon code ffmember to get the discount.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on May 03, 2021, 11:27:48 am
Thanks for the information guys. I called Sunforce technical support this morning and they do believe something has failed in the controller, so I'll be picking up a Victron ASAP.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on May 04, 2021, 05:01:42 pm
Victron SmartSolar 100/30 on the way. Will report back once it's installed.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on May 05, 2021, 10:47:34 pm
Received the Victron unit today and got it installed. First, I removed the malfunctioning Sunforce controller.
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fspeedcraving.com%2FForetravel%2FVictronSolar%2FSunforce.jpg&hash=2839c8fd1ef4e3889a2e11eb542cfbcf" rel="cached" data-hash="2839c8fd1ef4e3889a2e11eb542cfbcf" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://speedcraving.com/Foretravel/VictronSolar/Sunforce.jpg)
Found a nice new home for the Victron and got it mounted up.
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fspeedcraving.com%2FForetravel%2FVictronSolar%2FMounted.jpg&hash=57d7bf698e263a180fdff93491e9a9ad" rel="cached" data-hash="57d7bf698e263a180fdff93491e9a9ad" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://speedcraving.com/Foretravel/VictronSolar/Mounted.jpg)
Made all the connections, cleaned up some wiring and she's all set.
(https://www.foreforums.com/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fspeedcraving.com%2FForetravel%2FVictronSolar%2FInstalled.jpg&hash=5c07fa9043991364921bc27c5802519b" rel="cached" data-hash="5c07fa9043991364921bc27c5802519b" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://speedcraving.com/Foretravel/VictronSolar/Installed.jpg)
I also installed the VictronConnect app on my phone and verified it's all working, although there was no sunlight to have the charger going. It's got some nice features to show you what's going on and store history. Connects to your phone via Bluetooth.
I'll report back once I have a day or two of data.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Res777 on June 21, 2021, 06:49:38 pm
Hey guys, we just got back from our first boon docking trip in the U320 and had a great time! I got her put away and plugged in last night, came out this morning and heard a beeping. The Xantrex control panel showed a fault, F9 Battery Voltage Too High. Before we left, I had noticed that the panel showed 16.0V for the batteries at one point. Today, they were showing 15.8V.
Looking through the manual, there is no adjustment available for the max voltage for charging. You can change the amp limit, but not the target voltage. My battery bank is 3 x Lifeline 8D's at 255Ah for 765Ah total. Using their calculation (Total Ah / 5 for max output), the charger will put out the maximum 150A to the batteries. The only setting I can change is the max charge rate, which is a % of the 150A charging capability.
With some searching online, I found a manual for the newer Xantrex SW 3012, which does have some voltage limits that are user adjustable. I called Xantrex and these are not available for my older SW 3000. Their solution is to upgrade the inverter/charger and control panel with new components. ::)
For now I've turned the max charge rate down to 75%, to see if that has an affect. The inverter had already disabled the charging system, so I guess I won't know until I unplug from AC power, let the batts run down a little and then plug it back in.
Anything else I should be looking into?
I'm curious. Have you tried doing a hard reset on the system to see if it makes a difference?
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: WS6_Keith on June 21, 2021, 06:52:07 pm
I'm curious. Have you tried doing a hard reset on the system to see if it makes a difference?
Yes, in reply #13 of this thread, I mentioned that Xantrex told me to do that. It didn't solve the issue. In the end, the solar charge controller was the culprit. Once replaced, everything is working perfectly.
Title: Re: Xantrex SW 3000 overcharging house batts
Post by: Res777 on June 21, 2021, 07:10:52 pm
Yes, in reply #13 of this thread, I mentioned that Xantrex told me to do that. It didn't solve the issue. In the end, the solar charge controller was the culprit. Once replaced, everything is working perfectly.
I'm glad you figured it out. I was curious because I've just purchased my first MH and it has the Xantrex RS 3000.