I'm finally talking about changing my living room slide bladder. It has been sealed closed since purchase. I know most have already traveled down this road. I'll be doing myself and currently just figuring out parts.
I'm sure I will need the improved vacuum manifold also. I was planning on purchasing parts from HWH, but was wondering what would be the preferred seal or do you just purchase what they currently sell?
Ref
Slide room air seal "bladder" replacement news from HWH (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=32216.0)
Bladder Repair with Delamination Prevention (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=29068.msg245319#msg245319)
I also will be addressing delamination issues. Will be a separated post during work.
I do have capabilities to remove the slide as required for my year. Will also be a separate post.
Proposed needed items
1 New improved Bladder
2 New improved vacuum manifold
3 Thick plastic to seal off coach with slide removed
4 Aluminum tape to seal plastic
5 Plastic scrapers for old seal adhesive removal
I'm sure there will be a ton of other needed stuff. Pre planning for this fall. Any insight would be appreciated.
This is the last repair item on my endless list since purchase. Really looking forward to its completion. Doesn't shorten the want list though
Thanks Scott
One suggestion to look at is rather than a new vacuum manifold is to add a vacuum pump. A lot of the Newell guys have done that since Newell didn't have any way to evacuate the air from the bladder other than the air bleeding out. Not sure of the cost of each but might be worth a look at. If you're interested I could point you to a post on newellgurus.com.
Scott this post should explain everything, at least from a Newell's perspective. I think you're right so I'd contact Rudy, he might have a bit more info pertaining to his FT.
hwh slide seal vacuum pump installation (http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3478)
Very helpful. Thanks
Scott
Wow! This is going to be an impressive write-up to see when you're done ^.^d
When you talk to HWH be sure to ask them how and where to take the measurements foe the new bladder. When I ordered mine they were very specific on what they wanted.
Yes I was aware of that prior. Don't want to get the wrong size. I'm actually interested in any improved seals they have also. Would like a lifetime warranty, mine not the seal. Don't want to repeat the process when I could do it better the first time. I live in the desert and although its only in direct sunlight when in use it's still 110+ in the summer time and real dry. Hoping to be able to flee the summer and head way north. Thinking of the coach of course
Scott
The single bestest thing about the new, improved HWH bladder seal is that mine does not need air pressure to stay inflated and seal perfectly. That and it should outlive all of us. My aux air compressor stays off when parked except to re-level the coach every few weeks!!! But it does need beaucoup vacuum to retract it away from the slide completely. So the addition of a 12v vacuum pump to the existing vacuum generator may suffice instead of the beefier HWH vacuum generator...which cost me 3/4 of a $CB.
Give them your coach #, They ship out each order by number. They have all the part numbers they sent out the first time.
I was unaware of that. Yes I will have coach number. Just plotting on vacuum manifold conversation to vacuum pump. Been distracted with camera install
Scott
@dsd Are you planning to fully remove the slide? I suspect that is required to access the bladder? What is your plan for support/removal of slide to access the bladder? I need to do mine on my 2000 U320 40' unit. My bladder is fine, it holds air without issue, but something has happened and water leaks between the bladder and the track/rail it is attached to. I suspect that the slide drug on the bladder and broke the bladder/adhesive bond. Looking forward to see how you attack this task!
does yours leak on the top of the slide?
On mine, the slide room roof had sagged in the middle (maybe from having the slide out 80% of the time for 20 years, and the bladder pushing down on it?
MOT did a LOT of work to get the sag out of the room - We all thought it was the bladder, but that is NOT what it turned out to be.
on a 2000 you will need to bring the room all the way out of the coach to work on the bladder- Most shops use a forklift or two or an adjustable staging system on wheels
Not for the faint of heart....
Tim Fiedler
No, it's not leaking from the top. There is a silver aluminum rail that the bladder is installed inside of around the entire perimeter of the slide opening in the wall. This aluminum rail is not continuous along the bottom of the slide opening. There is a joint about 1/3 of the length from the rear of the coach and water leaks under the bladder inside of the rail and out of that joint. I have other delamination issues at the openings underneath the slide for the slide arms that also cause leakage into the interior of coach, but I have confirmed the leak at the aluminum rail watching the water drip in at this point. My slide is going to require a ton of work to get everything sealed back up unfortunately. Fortunately I live in CA and it only leaks when extended.
So I did contact them (HWH)and the build number was nothing they wanted for my coach. They required the height and length of the slide, not the size of the opening. Part not available but ordered and they will build when they get to my order. Sounded like 60+ days or longer, part number RAP93788 $1840.00 will give me time to build and install the vacuum motor system.
Scott
Scott,
This is going to be a nice thread on your adventures with the slide bladder.
I still have not fixed my leaking bedroom slide bladder. To survive the winter, I pushed Air Conditioning type of insulation into the gap to keep water and bugs out. I was planning to travel to FOT in the spring to have it fixed. Will HWH in Iowa replace the bladder in a FT? Iowa is 15 hours away from me. FOT is 3 days away.
What's the story on the new and improved bladder for the slides? I'm hopeful that once I get mine replaced I won't have to go through that again.
Vacuum pump vs. manifold. What is the story with that?
I understand that HWH will work on there products but nothing else. I certainly would give them a call or email. Big dog Jerry stated that they were much more robust and should last our life time and that they will stay in contact when deflated. And that they require more vacuum to retract fully. They initially told me I would need to replace my vacuum control with there new and improved. I had previously spoke to Rudy and others that have installed electric vacuum pumps. They wanted like $850 for there HWH pump setup. I told them I had already installed a electric vacuum pump system and wouldn't need theirs. I'll post more on that as I build it. Your side is much easier to replace than mine. You are able to disconnect and push your slide inward to expose bladder. My 2001 requires removal of the slide and during its removal I'll be addressing delamination repairs.
Scott
Yes, HWH will replace your bladder. Their labor rate is also much lower than FOT.
FYI, the reason they needed the size of the slide, is because the early slide rooms where made too big for the hole. We replaced seals regularly on new coaches at first. I personally did 5, on less then one year old coaches. That and the HWH hose end repair, then upgrade hoses when the repair didn't work. kept us busy on new coaches.
The early slides had to come out, we had a custom table. I believe RnR still has the table they bought from FT. Some of this was revised via a smaller seal among other things.They built new molds for rooms I believe. Thus, the varying room sizes.Thus the question.
I did a Prevost bus for the owner of Amway at FT, it took 2 forklifts, what a job.That coach was the prototype for HWH and Prevost. They never planned to ever change a seal.
Chris
Would not hesitate to visit HWH. In 2018 after the Maritime Motorcade we had 2 or 3 coaches parade into Moscow for bladder replacement. I would book an appointment early so they had the parts you need. Probably take until Spring to get an appointment. We stayed in Moline, IL just across the river at The Element Hotel. Very nice and reasonable. It's down the street from the Deere visitor's center or a 5 min. walk. Try and schedule a tour of the Deere Factory. Remarkable! If it's baseball season the KC Royals high A affiliate: The River Bandits are right across the bridge. They are in Davenport, IA. I think we were in and out in 2 days. Great folks at HWH and they'll bring it all back to spec. It was cheaper than getting it done elsewhere as mentioned, but based on what I'm reading here the prices are up 50% plus since my visit. Prices are really getting worrisome.
Chris you mention the hose upgrades, is there any way to determine the mod status of my coach? If I'm going to be in this deep if there are additional items to be addressed this would be the preferred time to take them on. It would be nice to figure out what I need ahead of time. I do have the capability to build high pressure hydraulic lines on site and have two forklifts. Any other input is greatly appreciated!
Thanks Scott
Yours probably has the new hoses by now. If they don't leak, they have been replaced.
We went through trying to repair them, don't remember what the issue was, either the ends or the hose brand/style, so they gave up, and we did a complete hyd. hose swamp out. HWH warranty.
If your still worried, I would contact FT, or HWH. They would have the info. I slept since then...LOL
Chris
Okay Chris this is great information. Thank you. I don't have any hydraulic leaks, BUT I've only closed twice and opened once since I purchased last year. This is the total cycles on the slide since 2007 when it was opened and abandoned to my knowledge. Ive never operated with the computer like normal folks, however the computer has since been repaired and will attempt at the beginning of the slide removal before I remove slide for Bladder change. It's taped closed. I'm confident there will be sensor issues to work out before removal and I've also yet to adjust my rollers I made for the carpet removal with vinyl plank flooring. Haven't unlocked pins. I think there is also slide pin bushings/seals that will also need to be replaced. I will address before or during slide removal so I don't have to do this twice. It is very quiet running down the road, no squeaks.
Scott
2001 slide tipping roller mod (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42838.msg430060#msg430060)
I just made an appointment for Spring 2022 to have our bedroom bladder replaced - estimate with new manifold is $3400.00 and 1 1/2 days down time. It's November now and they were booking as early as 3 weeks out if I wanted. FOT is closer by a days travel but I'd rather go to HWH and have all my systems tested. All they needed was the length and width of my slide and VIN number
As long as I take the time delay out of the equation they have been outstanding to me so far. BUT they do seem to be aware they are going to take awhile to perform their services. To date with me they have been able to provide exactly what they promised. As long as they meet their deadlines and they have with me, im good. Changing world we live in for sure.
Scott
Every time I have gone to HWH ot has been 3-4 week lead time for in-shop service. They are about 5 hrs from us and not far out of the way on our way to or returning from anywhere south of us.
The air leak check is not free but usually is only about $50, a half hour. The will find any leaks in their equipment to fix and mark any leaks in anything else for you to fix. They drive the coach up an elevated ramp and can walk around underneath easily.
Going to HWH is a good choice if it is one you can do. Prices are less, all the parts are there and the technicians are first class.
External width and height of slide?
I think your coach is a little more sophisticated than ours. I believe they have a part number for yours. Better quality control? But yes external width and Height
Scott
If I recall correctly, I gave them the measurements of the opening as opposed to the room dimensions.
I would call them to confirm as to what exactly they want.
Copied from my current email with them
Good morning Scott
I am going to need a little more information in order to figure out what air seal you need. I am going to need to know how high the room is and the length of the room. Now this is the measurement of the room not the hole the room is in. Once I have that I can tell you what air seal you will need and how much it will be.
Thank you
Joe Portelli
On 10/28/2021 2:20 PM,
Well, looks like I didn't recall correctly, my bad. Old timers creeping in.
I had both seals replaced earlier this year, mot did the work, I replaced their vacuum blocks as they told me they would not have a warranty if I didn't. Plus I don't like things "rigged" if I don't have to. Neither make contact when deflated, there is a good 1/4"+ gap when deflated... they both work great.....
Keith
Fortunately my seal is being installed with a lifetime replacement warranty supplied by the installer to the purchaser. No extra charge for it. And this was with the modified improved vacuum system with overpressure safety protection too. Only way to secure lifetime warranted. Keith what Pressure and inches of Vacuum does your system operate at? Three primary causes of failure are hi pressure failure, insufficient vacuum, and UV damage.
Scott
I don't know the pressures, I'll look tomorrow.. both of mine failed in what looked like a seam maybe due to uv damage. There was a line that looked dry rotted.
Keith
My credit card put a hold an a Suspicious charge for $1900 today. Come to find out HWH finally is shipping my bladder seal that I ordered November 11.
Wish I was there to give you a hand Scott! Looking forward to your progress and photos! Lot's of photos! Glad that HWH finally came through with your order! I remember when you called them. Good luck with this repair, however, I know if it can be done, you da man!
Well UPS notified me that seal will be delivered Wednesday. If anyone was paying attention when they got there seal replaced on a 2001 slide any input would be appreciated. I do have fork lift and stands and a overhead to attach to for safety straps.
Scott
Once you get the new seal installed, seal around the outer edge of the seal to the fiberglass. Otherwise water can go under the seal and into the coach.
Silicone probably not the best product to use, some else may recommend a better product.
Depending on seal material I think I have several sealers that will work well for that. Still trying to figure out what stays or is removed on slide.
Received seal. Took to shop and inflated enough (1 psi?)to remove the shipping folds in it. Figure letting it relax to normal shape is a good thing. Ordered 3m 94 primer for foam tape installation. Will receive Sunday. Way to windy to do anything outside anyway. Got dinette and couch loose and will be able to move out of the way once slide is opened. Sage keep close tabs on my progress. Opened up the top of both actuator boxes inside but unable to see any attachment till the slide is opened I'm hoping. Found more mud dauber nests. Also fearfully pulled some of the barrier tape off the out side. Its been on there for about a year now. Been stored out of the sun but still been a year. Was extremely pleased that 99% of the adhesive came off with tape and no discoloration to the jelcoat. At this point it was the best decision I could've made for weatherproofing the slide.
Scott
Got coach positioned in front of shop so i could operate forklift on my concrete pad but couldnt pull forward enough , so backed out got the old backhoe and cleared some blow sand out of the way and cut back one of my creosote bushes. My pallet on the fork lift is 12 feet long and cut in down to under 4 feet deep. Covered with some old carpet got positioned and working at getting slide to extend. Ive never operated it with the HWH controls and its seems to be headstrong at resisting. Placing the slide control key to on the vacuum retracts bladder and after about 40 seconds the yellow light illuminates. Press extend button and nothing happens. Indicating about 9 inches of vacuum on old bladder. Pump never runs and locks still show engaged.
The 3A fuse led isn't lit...does that mean there's a fuse out? Is the coach level on the HWH pad?
Don't know. Or location of this three amp fuse?
It is in level and key on.
Just had lunch and was going to open HWH box and check fuses. If I dont find any will try override position.
Inside HWH all the lock solenoids are not indicated powered up or showing that there powered up?
Edit they do power up during operation
Found this tidbit:
"IF the electronic box is double stacked there is another fuse behind it on the motherboard.. Blew a 3amp fuse o my slide board that was double stacked so I couldn't find the issue.. after a service truck came out he was walked to it by HWH."
in this thread: Stuck in Colorado Springs with HWH problems (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=36999)
Do you have the coach manual/schematics? See if this one helps. There are 2 or 3 "3-amp" fuses mentioned: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiqkeamnOf1AhUzD0QIHWnNDcwQFnoECCAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hwhcorp.com%2Fml26139.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2BnXX0Phyo6hrd_LoYw19S
Just a thought, How level is the coach?
Out
I see you have the pro helping...that's like cheating! :) Great to see you got it out. Did you get it to move? If so, what was it?
Ambitious!
Yes I was four minutes from calling him when he pulled in the drive way. Never did find the fuse but isolated to the power supplied to the pump solenoid. Tomorrow is another day to hunt for it. Jim operated it and I hot wired the pump motor and it unlocked lock pins and once pulled drove slide out. Coach level , ignition on. The failing bladder would actually inflate and deflate and enable the vacuum interlock system. Not a big hole but once we got the slide out upon further investigation the bladder would tear with little effort. New and improved design should deliver another twenty years of service. Will need to resolve power problem but for now have enough work to keep me busy. Also figured out how to raise back of slide .050 by changing shims on actuator. All I lack is finishing. Long day. Thank you Jim (Fourdayoff) for helping me out again.
Scott
Wow! Scott and I were able to get his slide out of the coach. Allot of inspection and contemplating but it's just nuts and bolts, lots of them. Not for the faint of heart but as you know by now Scott is a trooper, he will tackle anything. It's a privilege to help and learn from him. Now a couple of days to strip out the old bladder and install the new. Then the fun starts again reinstalling the slide.
Question about the last photo in reply #40. The limit switch status indicator panel. is this component installed in the coach and if so where is it located?
About two feet forward of the HWH computer coach left, storage compartment on the ceiling. With slide extended all of the opposing leds illuminated in yellow. Still need to figure out why the 3amp fuse does not illuminate and we're this fuse is located. The diagram inside the computer with all the fuses doesn't describe a 3 amp fuse. The fuses and circuits are active during operation of the unlock, extent, retract lock operation.
When the control panel upstairs gets the yellow vacuum ready light and you operate the extend or retract the red light comes on to indicate that the pump is running but is is not. I'm hoping the two are a common issue
Might I suggest a set of really good ear plugs for the DW in the event that some strong "shop talk language" occurs?
Just a puzzle. So it looks like there is a control circuit for the pump with fuse and control relay. Just need to figure out were in the box it is. My unit is the 680 and really good prints are hard to find. Crawling in and out of the storage compartment has taken its toll on me. Woke up in the middle of the night with a leg cramp and neck is a real pain. Don't ever get old it will kill you. Primer doesn't show up till Sunday afternoon so I'll have all week to work on it. My coach has that truss closing up the upper half of the access door just to add to the fun.
Actually may be needed when putting it back in come to think about it
Scott, if you don't already have it, here's the 680 manual with schematics that I found online: http://www.hwhcorp.com/ml21001.pdf
Searching the PDF for "3A" for that fuse, it shows up in the drawing of the limit switch indicator box but no where else? Did you unstack the HWH boxes to see if there is one hidden behind another?
There is only one fuse 7.5 amp ride height. So removed lock strips and bladder. Although it looked in pretty good shape it was very much at the end of its life and you could tear it easily by hand. The adhesive on the other hand is quite robust. This is underneath the bladder to cause the bladder to go flat when it deflate with vacuum. It's 42° And adhesive is too soft to pull at that temperature and just tears so I tried heating it with a heat gun and they just made things worse. Oddly putting a soldering iron on the rail and then following the roll of adhesive with freeze Spray keeps the tape from tearing and you can work it off much easier. No fun
So the preheat then freeze spray the adhesive is working pretty good. Bottom edge done was up to a foot a minute. Did lower aft 8 feet with no tears or stops. Starting on verticals. Will require a bit more thought
So just finished removing the adhesive. The heat and freezing the removed tape keeps it from tearing off. I was really dreading this part of the job and it's done. I thought the top would be difficult but the big iron I was using only fell and hit me once. Heat rises so it was going right were I needed it to. Back to cleaning and figuring out wiring 👍👍
So found fuse for pump control open. Replaced and now pump runs on command. Extends normally and pump shuts off. Retract functions but does not go into next phase. Power wire into the position indication box has power but fuse 3 amp led still not illuminated? This box provides the ground to transition to the lock deploy stage. So I'll have to figure out why it's not on. Could also be a bad pressure switch, part of the logic, but it does shut down on extend. I keep re reading the manual and continue to make progress. The initial time we opened it it did retract the locks. Really need to extend locks to clean all the junk out of them. Getting closer.
Scott
Check and see if solonide that operates the hydrolic pump is good. Had same problem and was solonide. FOT told me when 1 goes bad the other is not far behind.. I replaced both.
The solenoid function normally now and so does the pump. Its the sequence during retract with extending stops. I'm pretty sure my problem is in the limit switch indication box. It supplies the ground to the control box in addition to the pressure switch providing a ground. I think the pressure switch is functioning normally because the pump auto shuts off during extend, just holds on retract after slide come in but doesn't progress. Need to figure out that darn 3 amp fuse LED on box not illuminating. The power wire going into the box has power on Pin 12. 12 volts dc.who knows what will come up after that. Ive never operated the slide normally once since we purchased the coach. Sure is bigger with slide opened or removed
And as I've said for years, if your going to be dumb you got to be tough. Today as my saga continues I was was thinking about all the information in the manual on the sequence at the slide Works. I was cleaning the top of the slide off still had Arkansas mud on it and I looked over at the upper locks and and looking at them at eye level realized hey I should probably push those slide stowed indicators in when I reinstall the slide so they don't get broken. The light came on. I put Ferris plates on top of them and tried to operate the slide no help added magnets to the ferrous plates and was able to complete retract and locks stowed cycle. This whole time the coach was thinking that the slide was not retracted ( laying on the ground)and locks cannot be extended so as to prevent damage to slide. Everything was working as it should . Back to cleaning. Good fun
Scott
Scott,
Looks like you had good supervision!
Sage was bored to death but was looking at the rear actuator. The nylon pads control horizontal position in opening and the steel plated goes between actuator end block shown in picture and attach to the slide box controlling vertical More plates drops height and less raises. Front was perfect but back had dropped .050. Will make a replacement plate to raise position Easy to access once installed. Four 1/4 bolts drives entire slide in and out and holds in position in tension At least they are grade 8 bolts. Will clean and dry lube everything. Also the steel plates the bocks slide on are in need of cleaning and will get dry line also. This can also be done with slide installed extended from underneath
Scott
So the top opening of the slide has three stop blocks that engage to keep the top of the slide from going out to far. They also function utilizing 45 degree stops to help hold the center of the slide from flexing during bladder inflation. My center hook was not engaging. It has a shim plate under it and moves it out about 3/16 of a inch. In doing so it never contacts and does its job. I definitely feel that there should be some sort of positive control to keep the bladder in alignment with the slide in the open position. Thinking a ramp and a ball bearing having the final parked position off the ram and on a flat. Just thinking out loud?
Scott
One thing I always wondered about the slides was if the guiding slide rail and the "saddle" block were of sufficient proportion to promote guidance without binding.
Any time I had to design a slide unit for a machine the rule was (I believe) two times the distance over the slide rails for the saddle length.
So I think the actuators are always matched in the same position during travel. The one roller on each actuator is on the inside on both towards each other. The front roller spun freely and the rear was very stiff and sliding i think. These are used to assist in keeping slide vertical during movement keeping slide from tipping out at top. All the force generated is along the lower portion of the slide. I really want to add a additional guide pin on the top center, but it can have very little effort available too align during extension, but is needed to prevent the top bowing during bladder inflation. There is a 1/4"x 2" strap placed on the end of the top and is pretensioned to assist in supporting the center of the inside of the slide. Mine has a pretensioned bow in it about a half inch to assist in lifting the center up. Not very effective IMO. With the slide cover trim inside extending about four inches would allow quite a bid of room to accommodate a alignment ramp and roller. Will figure out something to accommodate
If the top bows down too much, the inflated bladder will not seal the slide unit and rain will enter at that point
Happened on my coach - Dewes at MOT spend a lot of time getting the slide room ceiling no to sag so much so the bladder would seal out any rain
This is where a crowned top is desirable.
Explanation: We used to, in the design of paper machinery rolls, design the suction couch roll diameter larger in the middle because with the distance between end bearing supports becoming greater, the center of the roll would sag down because of all the weight.
Thus, a "crowned roll".
I would suspect that a bit of "crowning", or raised center might be desirable on a really large slide and slowly tapering down both ways from center.
Yes. So with that said I was already going to adjust it up so as its not sagging. Initially i thought it was more than it really is do too the 1/4 x 2' strap had so much sag in it but the structure it attaches to had about 3/16 or less. Strap had 1/2" bow installed in it so it visually looks worse than it is. This was done to pretension and help address the sag I think. Crown would flow water away from seal and sag would funnel it to the seal. The top of the coach opening is perfectly flat, so no positive crown if you want it to fit in the coach.
Scott
So massaged sag out of slide and ended up with 1/8 crown. So fork lift was trapped behind coach and i wanted to move some heavy metal so fired up back hoe and hooked up forks to bucket. Was spreading forks and smashed/ torn my left thumb nail. Entire nail and nail bed torn loose. Not the start for a good day. Crap. Covered up with super glue gel to stop bleeding and wrapped with tape. Darn thing leaked all day long till I put last dressing at the end of the day. So with Jim and long friend Jessy was able to get adhesive and bladder with both lock keys installed. Inflated to 5psi to set back of seal to adhesive. Looks great. Hate trying to do anything one handed. Have some other repairs and cleaning so will probably wait a couple days before slide goes in.
Can't hit the like button when your hurt. Still following your journey on slide replacement though.
Hopefully wont loose nail permanently , just got to be tough. Super glue is your friend. new seal has a shark fin a 1/4 inch tall. Should work much better especially when deflated. Was real interesting putting it in. Will post the guide they sent tomorrow. The corners were kinked initially and i was concerned. You have to stretch the bladder about five inches so getting it centered in the air hose is important we stretched the top and bottom about two inches and the rest in the sides. Corners pulled the kinks right out once tensioned. The lock key is pushed into the key way slot that the ears on the bladder goes in. Let set nicely with a dead blow plastic hammer. Inflated bladder to 5 psi to set adhesive on the back of the bladder. Adhesive is there to retract shark fin flat against the aluminum extrusion. They recommend checking pressure to 12psi and vacuum to 20 inches on control unit. Will be checking in more detail tomorrow. The lock key is thicker than the old and I doubt it could ever come loose. Will be applying a bead of gray 157 RTV between lock key and coach fiberglass to prevent moisture from collecting. Will never even see it. All in all it was a very rewarding day other than my thumb.
Scott
Sucks about your thumb Scott. What does HWH say to run for pressure in the new bladder once in use?
12 psi positive 20" negative
I sure did not realize your thumb looked like that while talking to me on the phone! Ouch!!!
It looked way better then than now.
So went around both lock keys and tapped in several high spots that were not seated deep enough yesterday. They are difficult to see but easy to find sliding finger along them. 72 Feet. applied bead of RTV 157 between outer fiberglass skin and outer lock key. I had also applied 157 between skin and aluminum bladder mount prior and once the lock key was installed it left a gap to collect water so I didn't want this and filled. Foretravel does not do this. Also filled all the skin around the top and sides of slide . Will also do bottom once lifted up prior to placing back in coach. Also special attention to the skin around the upper lock pin sockets to Assess their condition clean and reseal so as to prevent water from going in slide. Planning on reinstalling slide Saturday.
Scott
Momentive - RTV157-2.8 RTV 157 One Part Silicone Sealant, 2.8 Ounce Tube,... (https://www.amazon.com/Momentive-Part-Silicone-Sealant-Ounce/dp/B004V40IWG/ref=sr_1_1?crid=MOJLFCKBP1A4&keywords=157+RTV&qid=1644526746&sprefix=157+rtv%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1)
Sorry about the thumb Scott! Wow, Sage is getting bigger! Does he miss me???? Miss the little stinker for sure! Say hello to Jim for me and Kim as well. May be heading to Florida on Monday. Sick of this weather here and since Dottie's surgery has been put off until June, why not head for better weather!
Scott, I was framing a house a couple of years ago and in a rare moment of distraction, I hit a thumb with my framing hammer. A big, serious framing hammer with cross-hatched teeth. And it was a full swing, two hits to sink a 16p nail sort of thing. The end of my thumb blew out like a squashed grape. I cleaned it up, wrapped it and taped it, and went back to work. There was some ibuprofen involved too. Cutting off the top of my left index finger from the top of the nail bed to the end with an ax hurt worse.
As you say, you have to be tough. Hope it heals up OK.
👍👍Joe sage goes and wets on your parking spot every day. Yes she misses you .Roger I wish I would of only got crushed, I jerked it out and that's what did all the damage. Pulled nail and nail base, root off as one. hope the nail grows back, im doubtful it will.
So slide update for today, got all the 157 applied. Drilled out all the overhead trim screw holes out to a #21 and tapped with a 10/32 tap. Will replace all the screws to 10/32 screws and that will resolve that issue. I actually got some of the original extra pillows and they have enough ultra leather to make new snap on screw caps. So I hooked up my improved vacuum manifold and it will suck it down to 22 inches in 13 seconds. The new seal folds the shark fin inward and looks real nice except for the air hose attachement area has a 1/8 high bulge. Will contact HWH tomorrow on what to do. I think my two choices are grind the rubber fin flat on the high point or install a slide plate to keep the seal from destroying itself being too tall. Also removed the pins in both room slide mechanism and greased. I don't think it ever was lubed.
Scott
My ax removed nail and bed got some pretty good care. It did grow back, more brittle than other nails and not the same shape as the one on the right. That finger is also shorter, the fingerprint wraps up around the end and the skin is less pliable. All of that was more than 50 years ago. It has worked ever since but I still am not very good on the guitar.
Be sure you get good care for the injury.
Stayed busy all day long. So I called HWH and was told I would be put in the Q for tech help. I asked how long she thought it would take for a return call, couple months? no she said they are doing better and should be within the week. I had sent a inquiry to the salesman I purchased from and included all information and corresponding photo of the bulge. He took the information to their engineering department and he said it was normal and okay for it to rub during operation of the slide and would wear away with use. I had already finished making and installing a stainless steel slide plate. They said that would work great and eliminate any rub issues. Stainless steel sheet is .020 thick. I'm confident that the seal will cold flow after a couple of months of being pressurized. I also added a pressure relief pop off valve set at 14PSI and set regulator to 12 psi. Getting closer. Installing tomorrow hopefully.
Scott
So had the slide in the coach at 7:30 this morning. That's were the train wreck started. The bottom had too much bow and the seal had a 1/2 gap. Jim and Kieth came over to help put it in and I had invisioned going to breakfast because it was in. Well that didn't happen. Tried to massage floor down and gained 3/8 of a inch but still way too much for me. After hours of fabricating a 1/2 tapered pin and alignment socket and taking slide in and out a half dozen times finally got a good fix. Floor in perfect alignment and does not flex with bladder inflated. Real happy with it. So the pin and socket will get lubed with a dry spray lubricant so as not to collect dust and provide ease of use. The lower pin and socket are under the slide floor and require moving slide out the secure the lower plate mounting.The original upper stops are also worthless for anything other than keeping the slide from falling out. I have temporary alignment C clamp installed and will build a upper ramp and roller bearing alignment stop later in the week. The centering guide as will get sprayed with a "for nylon" dry lube to extend pad life. Mating surfaces were cleaned and painted. Ten hours but worth it and have come up with viable solutions too some of my issues. Thank you Jim and Keith.
Scott
Too bad you have to reinvent the mousetrap to make a slide work like it should have to begin with. Not many DIY bladder installers for this to help, maybe give HWH a chance to see some of your improvements.
I am always impressed with what Scott comes up with to solve issues or problems! 110% top notch!
Couple old sayings here.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Innovations can provide solutions.
Really old one here: You run what you brung. (from old impromptu horse racing lore)
And if I ever ended up on a deserted island with a bunch of junk I want Scott!! He can figure out "stuff".
I spoke with them on Friday and they asked for the pictures on how to remove the adhesive. "I'm confident the new slides are perfected". The 2001 slide project for foretravel isn't one of their finer moments. They should of had someone with boat building skills. A one piece fiberglass slide would be stronger and lighter. They were new then and old now and like me didn't age well. Couple of patches here and there and it will be as good as new, okay will work fine. At least its plugging the hole and bladder is inflated.
All I can say I wouldn't want to be paying someone to do the patches and repairs so the new bladder would actually work. It should seal up fine with slide closed because the skin supports the frame well. As soon as I get the upper stop and support made Ill update . It will be a different design with a ball bearing roller and a guide ramp I believe, subject to change. All the available horsepower is low on the slide. The top is cantilever off the bottom. This is my reasoning for upper ramp and ball bearing roller.
Scott
Another partially competed project that now must be finished is the floor roller mod
2001 slide tipping roller mod (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42838.msg430076#msg430076)
I made up the rear one when I had the dinette out and will now make up the front one and install in the front of the coach. I do have the adjustable nylon carpet pad block along the bottom but because there is vinyl plank flooring I really didn't want to tear it up with a nylon block and the dirt I get in the coach at a off road race sliding in and out. This will prevent the inside of the slide from tipping in during retraction. Same dust but will roll over rather than slide and scratch
Scott
Scott, when you get a round tuit, I'll take 3 of 'em!!! Woody.
Three? If you think you want to put one in the middle please dont. Its not the place to do any support. It can't even handle its regular loads
Well ran into another distraction to making parts. Yesterday the daughter called crying her car is making bad engine noises. 2011 equinox. This was not a premier year for the 2.4L engine. So I've canceled all work on the slide and retracted it last night and will semi assemble the inside of the coach so we can drive up to Reno and recover her car. Thought about taking the Dodge but the coach is so much more comfortable and we will stay eight hours before we return. Talk about getting spoiled. Ten years ago i would of drove up and back in one day. Times are changing.
Scott
Naw, You are achanging. It is many times more enjoyable going with the coach than running a marathon with your car/truck.
This is called harvesting the fruits of your labor.
I think your right. Sounds good to me. Thanks for bringing this expensive point up. Possibly just a test drive to verify bladder stays inflated👍👍
So after the mad dash to Reno the slide bladder being inflated makes the coach quieter. Still not finished with rollers and having issues with the magnetic stow sensor not talking well with magnets. Had to use stronger magnets to compleat circuit to lock actuators. I had slid the sensors as close as possible but no joy. Still dont have a successful extend retract cycle but getting closer. Ordering new tank drains and a shut off valve for slide air controller. They are all leaking and will need to be resolved now. Will also relocate all drain valves on hoses to make draining accessible from wheel wells. Close one door open three others.
Scott
Got an old computer hard drive? There is usually a monstrous rare earth magnet or two inside.
I believe in recycling.
I always have a bunch stuck to the side of the shop refrigerator. I buy the 3/16W x 1/2L inch for drain plugs. Very little heat kills them also. I used some 1/8L" by 1/2W" button magenets. Be careful with the big ones they BITE!
Started and finished front slide roller. Still need to remove couch to install upper vertical mount bolts. May have clearance issues with couch drawer. Made it as narrow as possible and hopeful will not need to relieve drawer front any. Rear was under the J dinette and plenty of room.
Scott
Tim I want to say your experience was a spot on description of mine. Top and bottom both were bowed to the point that there was a 3/16+ gap. I was able to get a lot of the bow out but once the pressure was on the bladder it would start bowing back. The guide pin or block was needed to control with slide open. No issues when closed the skin easily supports. Still need to make upper guide. Next week. I used a large pallet and four adjustable jack stands to reinstall. Forklift to remove and secondary safety support. Good stuff for sure. Thanks for your insight.
Scott
Be nice if you could sacrifice part of a clean new cheap paint brush on the inboard side of your roller, just to sweep loose stuff off, like gravel.
Just a thought.
Really out of clearance. The door for the couch drawer will probably need to be relieved anyway to clear roller
Pressure regulator would sometime start leaking air. Removed the rubber seal inside sprayed with freeze spray and with chucked up in drill redressed face on scotch bright wheel. In the first photo if you zoom in you can also see the little rubber seal in the middle of the plastic block. Smooth in the second photo. Back in the early 90 I worked for a very smart guy in the field of rubber products. Taught me to tool orings and other weird rubber stuff by freezing. Works great cold but impossible at room temperature. He also held the patents to the laytex cross your heart bra. Super guy. Since passed.
3M /Standard Abrasives Scotch-Brite Deburr Wheel 6"x1"x1" 9SF Mfg # 850374 |... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/304368316524?hash=item46ddc3f06c:g:9sgAAOSwSXdiDXkz)
Thanks for the great tip, freezing rubber to machine. Respect for your component level repair, the ultimate form of recycling.
Would have been a good idea to try on plungers on six packs. Jim
Started making upper guide block and roller to secure slide from bowing with slide extended and bladder inflated. This will prevent possibility of bowing and leaks. Roller stops on flat section when fully extended. Currently only will deflect slide top upwards about .050" from relaxed. Will fit under cover and be unseen. This also acts as the center stop similar to the removed factory stop with the opposing 45 degree plates. Outer two will be retained but will do little if anything. My center stop was actually below its other half and doing nothing.
Scott
Looks good Scott, will you weld this to the top truss?
Going to weld to a plate and bolt to upper truss with a bunch of 10/32 grade 8 screws. Small but in numbers quite strong and removable. Similar mount for roller on slide.
Scott
Upper half done. Just need to install and build the bottom roller half. Note on forth picture the round shinny disc. Its a earth magnet to collect drill cuttings.
Scott
Other half of upper mount finished and installed. Lifts a little before roller is on flat area. Virtually no sag now in upper slide surface when pressurized.
your skills and resources are humbling.
So im getting much closer to having a functioning slide. Ive opened and closed the slide more times today than I have since we purchased the coach. So one has to laugh, Ive been fighting with the forward slide stowed sensor for the past couple of days. Can trip externally but can't get it to function correct. Someone had swapped the wiring so the forward stow position forward is actually the rear and vis a versa. Much easier to t/s when your working on the correct sensor. So I wonder how it could of ever worked Especially with the bow that was in the top separating the sensors from the trip magnets additionally. Sensor part Number #19988. I was able to get the rear sensor to adjust in and work correctly marked as the front and suspect my actual forward sensor marked rear is failing but will operate with external magnet. It also could just be a decaying magnet? The magnet is mounted in the lock receiver and suspect HWH would want the entire block. I bonded a magnet outside the slide on the fiberglass and think it will work fine. Bladder pulls back 1/4 inch and magnet is 1/8" thick. Also the sensors are polarity sensitive to the magnet. One direction and they trip way to early and reversed the function real nice when over center. Will order a pair of sensors from HWH if I can't source. Also I opened up the internal magnet access inside slide cabinet and verified magnets were up against fiberglass. Nylon rollers I added on the front and rear allowed easy adjustment of slide vertical position. When fully extended rollers become unloaded. I originally was concerned the would load up when extended but dont.
It's really nice how much bigger the coach is when extended. Im confident Ill have a complete stowed, extended, stowed cycle this week.
Scott
Well I finally operated the coach slide from closed and locked to extended and retracted and locked from the drivers seat. I know it doesn't sound like much but it's been years in the works. Very rewarding to actually have in work once correct. I am still going to order two slide stow sensors before I finish up. Next is to finish up with replacement air compressor so it can supply needed air. One big leap forward though. Both slide open guides worked perfect. Zero flex when inflated while extended.
Scott
👏👏👏👏👏
Scott, that is amazing. That is one project I'm not qualified to take on. Congrats.
I'm starting to plan my trip to HWH in a few months to fix the leaking bedroom bladder. But, before I take on a 2000 mile round trip from N.J. to Iowa, I'm hoping that I can find a place that can do this work closer to NJ. Does anyone here know of a place closer to the Northeast?
Neither was I. Bedroom bladder on your coach would be much easier to do. Smaller, no delamination issues, and your slide pushes in the change the bladder. Huge difference.
Good luck. Reply #57 is a huge timesaver. HWH never has done it this way. Two hours for one person to remove adhesive on big slide. Was a huge deal for me! New seal is way better.
Scott
So as the saga continues the last couple of days off I worked on the little Thomas compressor. I removed from coach to facilitate working on it. Thought I would pass on what I learned. Roger has had several posts which I used to help figure this little guy out. There are several things I didn't understand basically till I got to the end of sorting out leaks. So there is a line from the compressor head to a regulator that vents to the atmosphere when pressure is exceeded. Line continues to the water separator filter. On the bottom of it is a normally open solenoid drain. When compressor runs it closes. When off it opens and vents water to the atmosphere. As the air is leaving the filter housing there is a check valve. On the other side of the check valve is a Tee fitting branching off to the pressure shut off valve, line 75 and line 57. Line 75 to the bladder tank and control valve exits the Tee fitting thru a normally open solenoid valve. Both lines have separate check valves only allowing pressure to exit away from pump. Line 57 Feeds the safety valve manifold down stream of it. so when the safety valve is above about 60 psi it can backfeed air to the check valve where it is stopped. At below about 50 psi the aux compressor can feed air into manifold past the check valve so leveling can be accomplished. So I was confused what the aux air valve solenoid function was being normally open. When there is a raise command threw the HWH controller it sends a signal to close the aux air solenoid to prevent air going to bladder system till command is done. This forces all available air to line 57 and eventually to the six packs. Command goes away, aux air solenoid relaxes and air can continue to bladder system as needed. So when I first started compressor it would run till charged then cycle every minute. The aux air solenoid had a failed oring (metric) and this was causing the rapid start, shut off cycle. Prior it would run to bring up bladder tank and then start its off on cycling. Ive got the leaks resolved I believe, but have not reinstalled compressor yet. I did notice a small leak around filter base and a very small leak at filter solenoid valve. Resolved filter base and ignored drain leak because only present with pump running.
Also I have removed the Tee fitting from the check valve after the filter. This is were my ARB compressor will be installed eventually manually/automatically controlled. At this point ill be installing a additional desiccant filter between before the split to lines 57 and 75. My bladder tank may have never been drained in its life and i'm concerned about all the water I initially drained. This may be a non issue but its going in. Ill post picture as I get to that point. Tee fitting will be after desiccant dryer. Desiccant dryer will remain under pressure except for service. Thomas compressor will still function as before. During manual level adjustments ARB can be turned on. For slide bladder vacuum needs it will automatically be commanded on. I had purchased a Vacuum pump to provide vacuum but currently going this direction. I may eventually use the vacuum pump but not at this time. ARB will also provides air for tires.
So I do have one question Im hoping some one can answer, were is the intake for the compressor? All I can figure is it must be internal?
Scott
Scott,
On the one I have on the shelf for loaner the intake is on the head just opposite of the discharge port. I have no idea as to if all are set up this way or not. There isn't a line that runs off just a dust filter.
Mike
Well that what I was expecting but in the opposite hole from the outlet is a plug.
Here are plumbing and wiring for the 2001 coach. Three different air system drawings in this year, minor changes.
I had two of the small compressors, the OEM had a filter on the end plate.
I have a bigger Thomas by itself on a easy to remove board where all of the stuff was before.
The rest of the stuff in on a panel on the back side wall of the bay. Easy to service. Connected as they are in a 2003. I have a much bigger dryer to connect when we get home.
And an ARB backup/utility compressor, ceiling mounted on a panel bolted into steel. Didn't quite finish all the connections before we left in Dec. Three way valve, either or both. If it is not selected for air system it provides utility air (bike tires etc) you can get 2 of the ARB compressors for the price of a big Thomas compressor.
Last two are 2003 variations.
Roger that is very similar to what I will end up with. I like the little Thomas for the bladder pressurization and the ARP for everything else. Using the 9700 wire will interface it with the ARP in the auto position. Still will have manual override when i want. 👍👍
Scott, I have the bigger compressor but yours might be the same as far as air intake. The base of where the compressor sits on is where the intake is.you can see the black hose going from the base up to the compressor. The bolt and nut in the middle of the base holds the cover for the filter.
None on mine. On top of head the unused port has a plug in it
Scott,
That is the dangest thing I have ever saw.
Mike
It does pump, but I don't know were the intake is . Suspecting bottom side of piston, yes I've never seen a compressor like this.
Take a look at this diagram Scott...looks like there may be a reed valve on the inside, so air intake is from the inside.
http://www.flashoffroad.com/Maintenance/Cti/images/TA4101pump.pdf
In looking at diagram it looks like these have a reed valve for intake and exhaust. From this diagram I would say one side of head is intake and other exhaust. The picture that Scott has of the pump has arrows pointing out on both sides so that is the reason for the plug on the unused side. Now as for where air is coming from on the pump Scott has must have a reed valve on the top of the piston. In the picture there is something on the side of the crankcase. Could that be the air intake?
Air come in from the side of the crankcase. See page top middle picture of page 3. Shows the intake coming from crankcase.
GARDNER DENVER THOMAS SK405MAJ ASSEMBLY PROCEDURES Pdf Download | ManualsLib (http://www.manualslib.com/manual/1843207/Gardner-Denver-Thomas-Sk405maj.html)
They have a side air intake, one of mine had an additional air filter attached to the end plate.
Thank you. I would of never imagined having a reed on top of the piston. So they show a plastic ratchet holding a filter on the side of the crankcase. I actually did notice that black plastic button but didn't dedicate enough time to look at it. I will tonight when I get done at work. Im sure it has the factory original filter. In the environment I live in I will at least install a new filter and actually think about a little K&N type filter retro fit, thinking a crankcase breather filter. Again Thank You 👍👍
Scott
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Scott, test the pressure output of your small compressor, it should be 100+ psi. I got a rebuilt kit at ZORO for $94. They are closer to $200 now. After one, I decided to put the $ into a more capable compressor.
Your little compressor needs to get the HWH tank and the air to the bags to 90 psi or more before it will do any leveling. It is slow.
Roger, did you do a write up when you upgraded your compressor? I'm probably dreaming it was an easy in n out.
Yep it not going to put out 60 psi. No air awning. Yep its slow, yep it will work slide bladder seal air. Yep the standby by twin ARB will operate vacuum to 22 inches, yep it will operate bags when needed, although currently they hold for weeks. So im going to run what I brung. I like the idea of the ARB and will upgrade soon. Adding a aux air normally closed solenoid to bypass check in. Line 57 should resolve vacuum issues, but I still want for all the others reasons. I have hi pressure 1/4 line and fittings to remote locate 1 liter desiccant filter and will fit and make next. Will also leave port for ARB when its in my hands..
So the bladder tank is isolated during leveling. Non issue
Upon closer review my filter was actually missing . I measured the outside of the flange and have ordered a filter that should clamp around the outside. Will stick out a bit but I dont think it will be a issue as high in the compartment that it is.. will probably leave the center plastic anchor removed.
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So put on were I originally wanted too. Not secure enough installation Pulled and plugged inlet and welded tube to end plate. Cut hole and reinstalled I'm happy with this and will add to my annual maintenance program to clean.
You always make things better.
Separated aux air manifold on compressor to add 1 liter desiccant dryer and a additional pressure gauge to monitor compressor pressure. Separation is just past compressor check valve so everything after stays at pressure. Water separator and filter dumps pressure and moisture still every cycle as normal. So with system at 100 psi with compressor commanded off I have four minutes to open or close slide with tank capacity. Will still hold 20 inches of vacuum at 80 psi but falling past that point. Normal slide movement is complete at one minute duration or less. Air lines are a bit overkill but I have on hand and I know they will never fail being 3000PSI capable . New desiccant on order already.
Scott, the air to deflate or inflate the bladder comes from the HWH tank which gets its air from the small compressor. I have my compressor on while deflating the bladder (HWH tank pressure drops) , extending or retracting the slide, and then while inflating the bladder. The compressor shuts off when the HWH tank and the pressure switch gets to about 105 psi (depending on the pressure switch adjustment).
Yes but I wanted to know consumptions and working times. Also vacuum versus pressure so as to set minimum operational pressure. 105 sound perfect for cut out but minimum on my system to function normally is 80 psi in regards to needed vacuum. 20 psi for pressurizing bladder.
So couple of weeks ago I put in a inquiry about some HWH micro switches. Figured I'd order one and a extra just in case. Well to my surprise they were $191 each. Forget that I'll figure out something similar that will work. Part number AR19988. Found some on eBay for $115 each. Showed two in picture but said only one item. So that was a bunch lower so I ordered one and it came in today. Actually both of them came today.
R AP19988 HWH Micro Switch Assembly Hydraulic Jacks RV Camper Motorhome | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/254632363470)
That's a great deal IMO. They have more if anyone needs a spare. This is the slide retracted position sensor 👍👍
Scott
Looks like a few needed some..........Sold Out. Thanks for the Part Number Scott, that will help.
Took the Thomas pump out of my coach today and found out what the "filter" built into the base is. In the first picture, you can see the input side has a hose going to a barb to 1/4npt fitting in the base. There's a piece of foam stuck down there with a channel cut in it, width-wise where the fitting is. Not sure if this was a FT piece or something from a previous owner.
That's the way ours is.