Foretravel Owners' Forum

Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: RandallBrink on June 08, 2021, 12:24:17 pm

Title: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 08, 2021, 12:24:17 pm
I just got my coach out of the shop for steering box rebuild, and every thing is fine as far as steering is concerned, except that the steering wheel is 90 degrees off from neutral. Is this something that will involve a return to the shop or something easy to remedy?
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: craneman on June 08, 2021, 12:36:42 pm
You can do it if traveling to the shop is more time consuming. The coupling at the bottom of the steering column would have to have one of the bolts removed then the steering wheel has to be unbolted from the cockpit, lifted up out of the coupling and set straight and dropped back into the coupling.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 08, 2021, 12:40:36 pm
You can do it if traveling to the shop is more time consuming. The coupling at the bottom of the steering column would have to have one of the bolts removed then the steering wheel has to be unbolted from the cockpit, lifted up out of the coupling and set straight and dropped back into the coupling.

Thank you very much. I'll look that coupling over and see if I can do it.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: wolfe10 on June 08, 2021, 12:41:08 pm
Been too long since I have removed one. 

Could they have installed the pitman arm a tooth or is it indexed so "idiot-proof".

Given what you have found about the workmanship, I would also suggest checking your CUT ANGLES to make sure the steering box and the mechanical stops have been set properly to allow max cut angle without contacting the mechanical stops.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: craneman on June 08, 2021, 12:55:15 pm
The sector shaft has a mark as does the pitman arm. Not idiot proof as it can be off a tooth. I must have missed by a tooth on my installation but it only clocked at 10:00 instead of 12:00. I was able to use the drag link to correct and still have full travel in both directions. Not sure about 90 deg. but maybe could be corrected with the drag link which is very simple.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: wolfe10 on June 08, 2021, 12:58:38 pm
Not sure about 90 deg. but maybe could be corrected with the drag link which is very simple.

Wouldn't that leave the center point/neutral point of the steering box off center?  90 degrees of steering wheel is ALOT.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: bigdog on June 08, 2021, 01:00:06 pm
I personally would stay far, far away from any suspension shop that can't be bothered to make sure the steering wheel is centered. Makes one wonder what else they didn't do properly.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: wolfe10 on June 08, 2021, 01:04:59 pm
I personally would stay far, far away from any suspension shop that can't be bothered to make sure the steering wheel is centered. Makes one wonder what else they didn't do properly.

Concur.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: craneman on June 08, 2021, 01:06:45 pm
Wouldn't that leave the center point/neutral point of the steering box off center?  90 degrees of steering wheel is ALOT.
That might require a call to Red Head or whoever rebuilt the box. My thought is if it has full travel in both directions at the stops and the pressure point is set, that not being in the neutral point would not be a problem.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: wolfe10 on June 08, 2021, 01:42:10 pm
OK, I have reached out to RedHead and forwarded them a link to this discussion.

Let's wait and get their professional input on this.

Brett
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 08, 2021, 04:19:52 pm
Don't know if the '89 U300 steering wheel is the same as on our '93 U280.  If it is, and if removing and re-centering the steering wheel would be a possible solution to this problem, then the link below might be of some interest.

Grand Villa Steering Wheel Removal (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=29695.msg252945#msg252945)

Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: kenhat on June 08, 2021, 10:22:45 pm
I suspect a tooth (or 2) off on the pitman arm. The indicators marks on the pitman and the shaft where way off on my steering box. (rebuilt redhead)

see ya
ken
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: wolfe10 on June 09, 2021, 11:57:07 am
Received this response from RedHead:

Subject: RE: Sheppard M100 box in Foretravel
 
Hi Brett,

I bounced this off of our builder here and this is the input I received as follows: "If you turn the tires to the perfectly straight ahead position and disconnect the pitman arm (to eliminate any mechanical or suspension stops) and then find "true center" in the gear box by turning it full lock to one side, counting the number of full 360 degree revolutions it takes to get to the other full lock and then go back towards center exactly half of the number of turns it was to find true center. At this point, you should be able to hook up the pitman arm with the marks lining up with one another and the steering wheel should be straight ahead. If the steering wheel is still off, you would need to disconnect the steering wheel and recenter it. If the pitman arm marks don't line up with the steering gear centered and the wheel centered, something needs to be addressed with suspension/alignment and this is where I would enlist the help of a good front end/alignment shop to see where the adjustments in the suspension/alignment need to be made."

One final bit of input is that if this test is performed and determine that the wheel just needs to be recentered and everything else lines up and we have equal turns both ways etc. it will not hurt the gear to recenter the wheel. This will not cause it to run in an "off-center" position or cause uneven turns either direction.

I hope this is helpful!

Thanks,
Daniel Foster
Red Head Steering Gears
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 09, 2021, 03:04:44 pm
Been too long since I have removed one. 

Could they have installed the pitman arm a tooth or is it indexed so "idiot-proof".

Given what you have found about the workmanship, I would also suggest checking your CUT ANGLES to make sure the steering box and the mechanical stops have been set properly to allow max cut angle without contacting the mechanical stops.


Brett, I will certainly do this. I can't believe that squaring the steering wheel would not have been part of the task, but if it suggests other potential problems with the box and pitman arm, I will prioritize getting it back into the shop.
Many thanks!
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 09, 2021, 03:06:47 pm
Been too long since I have removed one. 

Could they have installed the pitman arm a tooth or is it indexed so "idiot-proof".

Given what you have found about the workmanship, I would also suggest checking your CUT ANGLES to make sure the steering box and the mechanical stops have been set properly to allow max cut angle without contacting the mechanical stops.


Brett, I will certainly do this. I can't believe that squaring the steering wheel would not have been part of the task, but if it suggests other potential problems with the box and pitman arm, I will prioritize getting it back into the shop.
Many thanks!
OK, I have reached out to RedHead and forwarded them a link to this discussion.

Let's wait and get their professional input on this.

Brett

Thank you very much. I will await their response before doing anything.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 09, 2021, 04:39:14 pm
Received this response from RedHead:

Subject: RE: Sheppard M100 box in Foretravel
 
Hi Brett,

I bounced this off of our builder here and this is the input I received as follows: "If you turn the tires to the perfectly straight ahead position and disconnect the pitman arm (to eliminate any mechanical or suspension stops) and then find "true center" in the gear box by turning it full lock to one side, counting the number of full 360 degree revolutions it takes to get to the other full lock and then go back towards center exactly half of the number of turns it was to find true center. At this point, you should be able to hook up the pitman arm with the marks lining up with one another and the steering wheel should be straight ahead. If the steering wheel is still off, you would need to disconnect the steering wheel and recenter it. If the pitman arm marks don't line up with the steering gear centered and the wheel centered, something needs to be addressed with suspension/alignment and this is where I would enlist the help of a good front end/alignment shop to see where the adjustments in the suspension/alignment need to be made."

One final bit of input is that if this test is performed and determine that the wheel just needs to be recentered and everything else lines up and we have equal turns both ways etc. it will not hurt the gear to recenter the wheel. This will not cause it to run in an "off-center" position or cause uneven turns either direction.

I hope this is helpful!

Thanks,
Daniel Foster
Red Head Steering Gears
Brett, this very helpful information. What I get from all this is that it is not just a simple matter of uncoupling the column and manual centering the wheel—there could be other steering box issues. So I am trying to decide whether to return to the shop that did the work, or whether it would be prudent to consult a different shop. We have a superb alignment shop right here in town—Gene's Alignment— a big rig shop, but do not know as yet whether they would address this.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: wolfe10 on June 09, 2021, 04:41:23 pm
As others who have done this more recently than I suggested, start by verifying that the pitman arm is installed correctly (mark lined up with shaft).

I would also check for lock to lock, verifying that the relief plungers relieve an 1/8" or so from the mechanical stops (one person at the wheel and one underneath (with safety stands) makes this pretty easy. Have coach in travel mode for final "yup tires clear all body and suspension parts.

We have a lot of owners here on the forum who have R&R'ed their Sheppard box and had it blueprinted and new seals installed by RedHead.

So, I think you can at least get an idea of what needs to be done-- THEN decide if you/a shop needs to do it.

Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: Protech Racing on June 09, 2021, 04:45:34 pm
 I think that my arm only goes on the box in one place . The marks are hammered into the shaft and arm . 
 More than about 10 degrees off center should result in some self centering tug on the wheel.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 09, 2021, 05:37:43 pm
As others who have done this more recently than I suggested, start by verifying that the pitman arm is installed correctly (mark lined up with shaft).

I would also check for lock to lock, verifying that the relief plungers relieve an 1/8" or so from the mechanical stops (one person at the wheel and one underneath (with safety stands) makes this pretty easy. Have coach in travel mode for final "yup tires clear all body and suspension parts.

We have a lot of owners here on the forum who have R&R'ed their Sheppard box and had it blueprinted and new seals installed by RedHead.

So, I think you can at least get an idea of what needs to be done-- THEN decide if you/a shop needs to do it.


Thanks again Brett—I printed the information you posted from the Red Head response, and have made an appointment for tomorrow to have this done at Gene's Alignment right here in town. Gene's has always done my alignments and it should now be a quick and easy fix—for them—since they know what they're doing! Lol.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: John hobbs on June 09, 2021, 05:45:32 pm
Well I can say it's not idiot proof. I just got my SOB back from the local shop and they installed my steering box wrong.  I noticed my steering wheel was off then I had a problem turning into my neighborhood and had some problems making the turn. I got it home and checked the wheel turning cut on the pavement. Definitely turns further to the left than the right, very noticeable.

As much as I hate to say it. I hate taking my stuff into shops. Just seems difficult to find competent mechanics. I always do my own work for this reason but this gearbox was extremely difficult to get to. So I guess I'm taking it back to the shop.

In summary nothing is guaranteed, and with my SOB a "professional shop" couldn't even get it right.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: wolfe10 on June 09, 2021, 05:51:00 pm
Ya, your choice, but I would suggest you do the "eye ball" and THEN decide who does what.

Would hate to see someone mess this up.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 09, 2021, 08:46:07 pm
Ya, your choice, but I would suggest you do the "eye ball" and THEN decide who does what.

Would hate to see someone mess this up.
Me too. I will look at the Pittman arm markings in the morning and do the steer tests. I have no help, but do have a big, level yard to work with, and should be able to detect immediately any difference in turn limits before taking it over to the shop.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: craneman on June 10, 2021, 12:03:57 am
You won't be able to see the pitman arm marking without removing the bolt that is torqued to 350 ft. lbs.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: Protech Racing on June 10, 2021, 10:40:56 am
You may check the system by hooking up the lines  and steering wheel to the box. Starting  engine and rotating to each stop. The box will have a self center point , hopefully near the middle of the sweep.
 Center the wheel on this point.
 Hook up the pitman arm and check for wheel sweep as you turn.
 You can use a ruler to see how far the wheel sticks out from the fender at full turn.
Title: Re: Steering Wheel Position
Post by: RandallBrink on June 10, 2021, 07:10:00 pm
I want to thank everyone here for excellent advice, as always.

I called Gene's Alignments here in Spokane and he was able to get me right in. He squared the wheel, checked the Pitman arm and bolted down the steering wheel, which was loose.

The new steering box is solid, and the coach rolls down the Interstate with virtually no input from me on the straight stretches.