After our run yesterday (currently outside Cody, Wyoming) I noticed what appears to be diesel on the upper passenger side of the engine....where my uneducated understanding is the location of the injectors. That area and below show "wet" but no drips on the ground that I can see. No change to engine performance I can feel or hear.
Unless there's a reason to be concerned immediately, I'll monitor changes and plan a stop at Cummins Coach Care in Billings in mid September. Between now and then we have about 1000 miles in 5 stops over the next 2 months.
Thoughts and suggestions welcomed.
Probably lower than where you saw the diesel, but do check the lift pump for a leak-- a common issue.
And, many times a short-term fix is to just tighten the bolts securing it.
It that is the problem, do not drive too far before fixing it, as leaking while sitting also allows air in with the engine running (it is then under a vacuum) and can damage the injector pump.
Randy,
How about a photo of where the leak is coming from? The amount of diesel and location will help to tell how soon it should be fixed.
Pierce
Brett and Pierce
Away from coach and no internet where we're camping. I'll try and get pics and upload when we're back in town.
How can I identify lift pump?
Pierce, wet starts at top of passenger side...where I assume injectors are located.
Lift pump is on passenger's side of engine.
Go back there and have your copilot turn the key on. The pump will run for about 30 seconds then shut off. Locate by sound that way of follow fuel lines.
Definitely appears wetter on top. See pics. Have appt at Cummins coach care in Billings for Sept 20 and only about 5 x 200 mile days between now and then. Unless there's a trustworthy diesel shop between Cody, Missoula or Glacier area between now and then.
Randy,
Have you confirmed it is diesel fuel and not engine oil?
Irrespective of what it is, to assist either you or the shop in determining the source of the leak, put on some dirty clothes, get a can of WD-40, two rolls of paper towels and an old toothbrush (NOT your own) and clean the area so you could eat off it.
If you have some brake clean clean the area and let it dry and then start the engine and
look for the leak. You need to know what kind of a leak it is. If it is a fine spray I would fix
it right away. If it is a slow drip you might get away with it. The leak is away from the exhaust
which is a good thing. Remember it is summer and hot so you don't want a fire.
It looks like a seep to me rather than a leak. Could be engine oil. Yes, cans of WD-40 and paper towels and when it's clean, see if you can pinpoint the source of the leak. Gun below works faster and keeps your hands clean. I take it that nothing is on the ground under where it's seeping.
I usually connect an air hose and use a 2 gallon jug of cleaner like WalMart sells for about $11. Or HD, Target, etc. The inexpensive engine cleaning gun from a auto parts store will clean it and then the air will dry it so you are ready to spot the source.
Engine cleaning gun: https://www.harborfreight.com/engine-cleaning-gun-68290.html. Comes without hose chuck fitting so you have to compare to your hose, either shop or industrial fitting.
Pierce
I doubt this is the same but I've had two #4 fuel line failures on Cummins ISB engines. They go from nothing to be concerned to real bad real quick. I actually carry a fuel injector line cap and a factory new fuel line and tools to change in my truck.
Scott
After you get the suspect area clean and DRY a light dusting of talcum powder will find me any seeping spots, if all else fails.
How best to confirm i
How best to confirm I f it's engine oil or diesel?
Sounds like a good plan. Do you remember the specific Walmart cleaner?
Yes, it's an even better deal at about $11.67 plus tax for 2.5 gallons. Purple Power Degreaser Concentrate, 2.5 Gallons - Walmart.com (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Purple-Power-Degreaser-Concentrate-2-5-Gallons/16778257) After I used it up, I didn't want to go all the way down to WM so went to Home Depot. Think it was a dollar or two more than WM.
Pierce
This stuff is amazing from costco - safe and water based- my airplane IA turned me on to it when we has cleaning my engine at the annual.
http://www.costco.com/oil-eater-cleaner-5-gallon.product.100278868.html
I buy the same thing doesn't hurt aluminum.
Smell it. Diesel fuel has quite a distinctive odor. Compare with a whiff from your fuel tank.
Engine oil has much less odor and is black.
Yes, with accumulated dirt over time, sometimes color is hard to distinguish.
But after cleaning (don't forget the tooth brush for tight areas) it will be quite a lot easier to determine.
Keywords for researching and buying these products are biodegradable, non-abrasive, non-flammable and phosphate-free.
Pierce
Agree IF you are going to clean the whole engine.
But, unless the whole engine is caked with gunk, I have just used WD-40, a tooth brush and lots of paper towel. More critical for an electronic engine, as I really don't like using lots of water around electric connections.
Yes, if I use it on the entire engine, I bag the ECU and alternator. With the Detroit, the ECU is pretty weather proof and most of the wiring including all the electronic unit injectors/Jake is internal and located under the valve covers. WD-40 works great in smaller areas. I started using the purple stuff after we broke a hydraulic hose. The mess was incredible not only in the engine compartment but the toad was covered with oil. Had to drive it to the car wash first so we could see out of the windshield. Lucky we didn't catch fire.
I like using anything on a warm engine. In winter or high humidity, it sticks around longer on a cold engine plus the oil/grease is removed easier if warm.
Pierce
There's a Cummins guy in Cody, Wyoming diesel power ask for Roger.
I stopped in there and they said they injubwork in diesel pickups. Didn't talk to Roger tho.
Bummer, he did when I lived in Cody but that was back in 06.
.
Randy, here's where it is on a 97 8.3. Probably similar.
jor
Number 9 on the attached ISC350 component diagram.
Don
Video of diesel leak on YouTube at
https://youtu.be/_-LnZFRFJaY
Using Don and Tys parts diagram I'd say it's the CAPS injection pump...not the lift pump. Can I fix?
So where does that leave me? Tomorrow I'll look for a legit Cummins shop to repair. I have an appt at Cummins Coach Care in Billings, MT 9/15 but that leave me several months dead in the water.
And I'm not sure what parts are needed. I know parts delays are an issue. Ideas?
Randy
Unless there is a leak on the ground, the photo you posted don't show a leak anything like in the video. I still say clean the area and then see for sure where it's coming from. It will really only take a few minutes to figure it out.
Pierce
My point is also that you need to see where the leak is coming from to be one step ahead of the shop if you have to take it there. If there is a leak, you point at it and tell them to fix it and have them explain the parts and cost. Asking what is wrong can open up a can of worms. Not saying I don't trust but...
Pierce
I would find a cummins dealer and get it fix now. it's got to be fix and it would be a relief of your mind and May stop being tow in, that will be a big bill better to drive in to the lot than being tow in and still have to get it fixed
The leak is coming from the component in the video. Using the diagram posted in this thread by Don & Tys it's component 20 labeled s CAPS injection pump. Not lift pump which is further back on the engine.
Tha could start to get $$$$$, if it's the CAPS pump leaking.
At this point (3 months into a 6 month trip and 4500 miles from home) a proper fix is more important than $$$$.
In 2015, rebuilt from Cummins CAPS pump 3800.00, 1200.00 install. As I was not in a place where I could do it myself. With that said they will now replace only the necessary parts on the pump rather than the entire pump. IIRC their are 5 modules that make up the pump. I would be careful with internet deals.
Safely made the 120 mile run from Cody to Billings. Wrapped the injection pump with a baby diaper to catch the drips and the trip was uneventful. No codes and no starting or running issues. Tomorrow I'll see what I can do at Cummings to move us up from our Sept 20 appt.
Enjoying our stay at the Billings Elks Club.
If you are in Billings, MT check with Interstate Power, 406-670-1881. They rebuilt Technomadia's Detroit a couple of years ago.
I think Andy worked at a Billings diesel shop. He would be the guy to talk to for advice. https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=profile;u=431
Pierce
Cummins CoachCare in Billings will get us back on the road. We'll move the coach there this afternoon so it will be ready when they have an opening.
ISC Injection pump installed yesterday. Lift pump to be installed today. Lift pump still operational but decoded to replace it along with injection pump so they'd both be "new". While old injection pump will be kept by Cummins as "core" for rebuild, lift pump is not. Trying to decide it I'll keep the lift pump (as a spare) or sell it here in classifieds. Would this be something others would want?
If you don't mind sharing $$$, my pump was 5800. In 2015
Haven't seen the bill yet but initial quote was around $5200 and I understood that as cost of part. I'll update after final bill.
If it's the mechanical lift pump on the side of the engine, driven off the cam, I'd keep it as a spare if it came out working. Never know where you'll be and what availability might be if the new one fails. I don't think they are very expensive...IE, you're not going to recoup a bunch of $ if you sell it.
Great point Keith. Think I will keep it with the coach. When the day comes to sell the coach our hope is that all the money we put into the coach to make it attractive, reliable and "right" for us will allow the next owner to carry on the fun with the confidence we did everything we could to make it "better than buying new".
Your lift pump on an ISC is electric.
When you get your bill, could you post the part numbers?
Part numbers and prices attached. Total cost $9924.08. Parts $5965.88 and Labor $3958.20. Total also included generator oil change (I supplied filters since the only had Onan in stock).
Previous posts indicated this Cummins shop is scheduling appointments in Sept due to shortage in mechanics. Our tech had been flown in from Cummins Pennsylvania to help with their backlog.
I was really thankful this shop did everything they could to get us back on the road. I'd recommend them to anyone traveling near Billings.
Expensive, yes. Could I have gotten by with a partial repair on injection pump...maybe. Did I have to replace lift pump..no. Could I have saved the labor by doing it myself....Yes, but that's not me....my best tool is my pen and checkbook. We simply made the decision to continue our adventure with the fuel delivery system totally replaced. Cummins was surprised our injection pump had lasted 21 years and 174k miles. They report failure rate on injection pump 3x greater than lift pump but cost of lift pump and labor was reported to be about $800 of the total repair so we decided to have it replaced as well.
So we're back on the road today after a 2 week hiatus.
This is what we chose to do...your decisions are what's right for you.
Yikes. Glad I was sitting down when I read. Glad it's resolved. Sure glad ISM's don't have those issues. Probably pay as you go with reduced fuel economy. Does bite into reserves I already spent, I'd have to steal money from the Bronco project, at least it is there. Really reminds me of how vulnerable one can be on the road. #1 thing that's makes me loose sleep over the coach. So glad it's resolved regardless of how you did it! I try to allot 50 cents a mile till I get back to 10k.
Scott
With the only a fair reliability record for the CUPS pumps, quite a few Cummins owners have changed over to the mechanical injection. As I remember, all new parts with a P pump cost about $8500 plus installation. Cummins has fitted rotary pumps, Bosch P, MW, A pumps, Nippon pumps on their engines in the past. The Bosch inline piston pumps last forever and almost never give any kind of trouble. Buying used parts, the conversion would cost under $2K
I've pulled lots of Bosch MW pumps for re-calibration after EPA test or turbo installation. It's a really easy installation with a set of injectors, the heat shield under the injector, injector pipes, the pump and a little support at the end of the pump. Easy DIY installation with only conventional tools.
Pierce
A great idea for a DIY guy, but not for the average moho owner IMO. Once you make a change like that, no one else is going to work on it as it doesn't match the book, other than maybe a hot rod shop that understands the P-pump well.
P pumps are on many thousands of Dodge PUs with 5.9 Cummins, thousands of 8.3 in trucks. It's the most common stock OEM pump for lots of diesels before the smog engines. Once installed, it pretty much trouble free. The injectors are even cheap. Yes, diesel tuning shops love them but all the regular shops know how to work on them very well if that ever becomes necessary. And no, I would never take my Cummins to a dealer if I owned one.
Otherwise, it's a rolling roulette wheel.
My view, naturally.
Pierce
There are truly some gifted FT owners, like Pierce, whose technical knowledge and hands on mechanical ability I truly respect. I suspect, tho, there are FT owners or wannabe's, who might never buy a FT is they thought they would need to wrench an engine issue...or would never know who to trust on a major engine or transmission repair. The fact is you don't need to wrench or know how to vet a mechanic if you start with a realistic understanding of what it might cost to run a 20+ year motorhome.
As I said many times here, you will NEVER spend as much money on a FT, no matter what you spend to buy (if you buy smart with the help of a qualified inspector) or keep it up, as you with the purchase price of a comparable coach of far inferior quality.
A recent article entitled, "The Cheapest Class A Diesel Pusher RV in America", mentions the Sportscoach 339DS, a 36' long diesel pusher RV from Coachmen RVs. This is the smallest diesel pusher made by Coachmen, and also the cheapest @ $200k+. Even after our purchase, replacement of virtually all major mechanical systems & appliances, a complete interior remodel, a state of the art lithium battery/Victron energy management system and this major repair, we'll NEVER end up spending what owners of this NEW coach will spend and we'll NEVER be in the shop for as long as most new coach owners are. In nearly 4 years and over 35,000 miles this 2 week repair was the ONLY time our travel has been interrupted.
Cummins CoachCare facilities are the only place I would take my engine if one was accessible to me. As I talked with diesel shops near where our problem began I was greeted by mostly blank stares when I asked about the ISC Caps fuel system. The only knowledgeable guy I talked to was an oldtime mechanic for the County road department, thanks to Brett Wolfe's suggestion, who had worked on the school system's busses in the 90's that used this engine. He knew exactly what was wrong and what was needed. He couldn't do the work himself but warned me NOT to use any local diesel shop to make this repair. He encouraged me to take the coach to Cummins who would have the parts and access to the technical knowledge to fix the issue properly. And, Cummins warrants the work for the next year regardless of mileage.
So, keep the technical and mechanical feedback coming. All of us will learn from the knowledge, some may save big bucks learning how to do the work themselves, but please help all owners, especially newbies, understand how to properly budget for the purchase of their rig and have confidence that's even if they can't wrench they CAN own a Foretravel.
Randy, what is Cummins' hourly rate these days?
It's my understanding the labor was fixed for the job regardless of how long it took. Remove and replace both components took 2 days.
Yes, very common for a shop to go by the FLAT RATE MANUAL, not actual time.
NOTE: I split off the discussion of P pumps and other mods.
Please, on this thread, let's stick with the original topic.
Thanks.
Brett/moderator