Yesterday was front tire changing day. Getting ready to go to the roundup. This is my DIY kit to get the job done. I didn't have to break them down this time as I made a deal with a local tire shop, my used tires for his labor, picked up and delivered. Mine were date coded 09/16 and I only changed them to get more weight capacity.
There are torque multipliers on the market.
Since I'm old and wiser my American Express gold does all the labor for me.- just sayin'
I have multipliers, they don't work very good on the front wheels. I have had these tools for over 20 years with the exception of the brace and wheel dolly. I will use them until my body won't let me. Once a mechanic always a mechanic.
Agree with above,had a good Snap-on multiplier and sold it and went to a torque wrench.
I use a Milwaukee fuel 1/2 inch impact to take them off and tighten them up and then
a 3/4 drive torque wrench. Also 20 ton jack and a pry bar.
I have a spare and change tires myself if I have a flat or want to work on the brakes.
1. Torque multiplier. Ours works great and I just used it to put the spare on for a 60 mile trip to get a new set of tires. The quality is excellent and it looks to have a long life.
2. Hydraulic air jack. I have two on board. Fairly cheap if on sale at HF. I purchased the 20 ton models.
3. Four foot pipe to slide on a breaker bar. HD breaker bar, support stand and extension needed for the rear.
4. Bathroom scale to torque wheel nuts.
5. Never Seez for threads. Amazon.com: Never-Seez NSBT-8 Silver Gray Regular Grade Anti-Seize Compound,... (https://www.amazon.com/Never-Seez-NSBT-8-Regular-Anti-Seize-Compound/dp/B000KZCU26)
6. Air hose reel.
7. Flip socket to fit your model coach. Some models may not need a flip socket.
8. Set of HF rubber chocks with 3 foot line to keep them together.
9. Possible adapter to coach/frame/suspension to allow jack to operate without the possibility of slipping off.
The coach should be on flat ground and chocked on the opposite side so it can't possibly roll.
I keep the spare in the compartment and if possible, use the HWH to bring up the spare tire side so I can slide it out and rotate the tire down to the ground without much effort. The higher the side is, the easier it is to rotate the spare to the vertical position so it can be rolled.
The air jack is put into place with the air hose from the reel connected to it. The HF hose was junk so I replaced it with their poly hose. Coach or compressor air can be used.
I jack the coach a little but don't raise the tire off the ground.
I use the torque multiplier with ten turns on the handle to loosen the nuts. On the rear wheels, the big stainless axle cover must be removed and replaced with a stainless axle cap so the nuts can be quickly and easily removed.
Once the nuts have been loosened, I jack the coach slightly higher so the tire is still slightly on the ground. Even a 1/4" battery impact will remove the nuts then.
With the tire still slightly on the ground, I saw the tire until it moves slightly off the hub and then with the top of the tire leaning inward and the bottom of the tire leaning out, I saw the tire and let it move away from the hub until I can clear the fender and roll it away. This whole operation only takes 30 seconds or so to work the tire off the hub and roll it away.
Replacing is just the opposite. You should never have to lift the tire to install it. I use any kind of impact, a quarter inch battery model to an air impact to center and seat the nuts. I may lower the coach a fraction of an inch so the tire cannot rotate and then using a breaker bar a stand and an extension if on the back wheels, step on the bathroom scale while tightening the nuts. I use Never-Seez on the threads, never on the mating surfaces and reduce the torque 20 percent over the recommended dry torque specs. With a 4 foot pipe and your hands at the end, the torque must be reduced by a factor of 4 so as an example, 240 ft lbs would be only 60 lbs added or subtracted (depending on which side your are on) from your weight on the bathroom scale. I've torqued large twin engine aircraft propellers using this method when I could not get a torque wrench into position.
With the coach jacked up, the studs should be as close as possible to the exact center of the stud hole in the aluminum wheel. This insures that the removal will be really easy. Otherwise, it's hard. The air/hydraulic jack makes it very easy to adjust the height.
If the tire has blown out, the coach may be lower on the flat tire side and some improvising may be needed to get it jacked up.
A maximum of 15 minutes is needed for this operation. I'm 77 years old but not much strength is needed if all ducks are in a row. You don't even need to get that dirty except for the jack R&R.
Anytime you get under the coach, it has to be carefully planned as an accident may be fatal.
Make sure the spare is up to matching pressure with other tires.
If the lug nuts are at the proper torque in the first place, it's easy to remove them. If a tire shop has installed them and over torqued, removing the lug nuts may be difficult.
Pierce
Pierce, what do you anchor the multiplier on for the front tire?
Here are several photos of the torque multiplier in the box and in action. The ratio is 64:1 so for 256 lbs of twisting effort, you only have to apply 4 lbs on the handle. There will be some sliding gear friction loss but it's still easy.
The multiplier I purchased had room for two more sockets but that model was not available so I opted for the maximum number of sockets that was in stock. 38 mm is the size for our U300.
The photo of it in action is on the driver's side with left hand threads so I'm going to turn the lug nut clockwise to remove it. The other photo shows the "L" marking the direction of threads this stud has . Many Foretravels do NOT have left hand threads so you have to make sure before you use the multiplier. I give the handle 10 turns and then use an impact for quick removal. Probably the least expensive and the quickest way to remove the nuts after loosening is the Harbor Freight 110V impact. This one is great but you need headphones to reduce the noise. Wait for discount and/or discount coupon and it's only $50. https://www.harborfreight.com/85-amp-corded-12-in-extreme-torque-impact-wrench-64120.html. They say over 1000 ft lbs but only if you plug it into 220V. :-)
Here is a similar multiplier. The prices seems to have gone up since I bought ours but this close to ours. They are quite heavy, built like tanks and very smooth in operation. Build quality is excellent from what I can see: Torque Multiplier Truck Trailer RV Lug Nut Wrench 58 Labor Saving Wrench 8... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/222872056084?epid=1803876062&hash=item33e435b114:g:3awAAOSwxdtaoEHI)
You are limited to a socket the same length as the ones in the case. No adapters will be possible.
Here is a really excellent 3 minute video showing how easy it is to use. A 10 year old can remove the most difficult stuck nut:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynyU2iJbg1o&t=54s
Pierce
Still curious how you anchor the multiplier on the front wheels where there is no rim to anchor to.
You don't really anchor it. The foot pushes against the next door nut/stud and stops the whole assembly from turning allowing the entire torque to be utilized to turn the nut. The multiplier is useless unless it has something in close proximity for the "foot" to push against.
When you use a torque wrench like you have in your post, the ground acts as the "anchor" along with gravity to allow you to remove or replace the lug nuts. That's why I use a bathroom scale to either add or subtract pounds depending if I'm in front or behind the tire I''m working on. If you had a four foot pipe on a breaker bar, you could stand on it and if you weight 100 lbs, you would apply or subtract 400 lbs of torque to the nut depending if you were behind or in front of the tire. If you want more than 400 lbs, you would have to "anchor" yourself by standing on the ground and lifting the pipe until you exceeded 100 lbs on the 4 foot bar. So, if you stand on a scale, you look at your weight and then push up on the pipe until you read the difference between what you weigh on the scale and what the scale reads while you are pushing up on the pipe. Then multiply the result by the length of the pipe.
So, if I'm tightening a right hand threaded nut with a 4 foot pipe into a breaker bar and I weigh 150 lbs, and I'm behind the wheel on the passengers side, I have to look down at the scale and if I want to torque to 200 ft lbs, I have to increase the reading on the scale by 50 lbs to torque to 200 foot lbs. If I've got a 5 foot pipe instead of the 4 footer, I only have to add 40 lbs to the scale reading. And if I'm on the front side of the same tire, I take off the same amount on the scale as the previous examples.
Pierce
Very interesting.
You learn something every day.
Love the red wagon, looks like a classic.
I removed both sets of rear wheels with my HF Earthquake 1/2" battery impact tool in order to get to the shocks and replace rear brake pads.
When I had a flat, the AAA driver also had a 1/2" battery impact that worked well. One battery for removing with a change to his spare for the spare installation. At that time, it was a Snap-On and cost around $600. They are a lot less expensive now especially from HF.
In most cases, the impact you have will work really well but on some wheels installed by tire shops, the torque may exceed what the impact can remove. I recall a member who had to have a couple of his cut off with a cutting torch.
Pierce
Milwaukee M18 FUEL w/ONE-KEY 18-Volt Lithium-Ion Brushless Cordless 1/2 in.... (https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-Electric-Tools-2863-20-Onekey/dp/B079DWMBX9/ref=sr_1_15?crid=1AA20KTFLQ2E&dchild=1&keywords=milwaukee+1%2F2+impact+high+torque&qid=1630698995&sprefix=Milwaukee+1%2F2+impact%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-15)
1400 foot pounds.
But it is real heavy and I recommend using hearing protection. The pounding is real loud. Crazy powerful.
Scott
Scott, I carry that one on the coach when traveling along with most of the other M18 Fuel tools.
I got tired of explaining my 4 foot pipe so ordered a 3/4" torque wrench today. 50-300 ft lbs so with Never Seez, it's more than I need. $47.50 plus sales tax, free shipping. 26"L 3/4" Dr Adjustable Reversible Lockable Click Torque Wrench | 50-300... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/154044304507?ViewItem=&item=154044304507)
Pierce
You did read the non-ratcheting part.
Yes but my pipe and breaker bar didn't ratchet either. Think I will slide a piece of PVC over it to give me a little more leverage.
I use 450 ft lbs minus 25% depending on which type of Never Seez I'm using so just over 300 ft lbs. Will max the new wrench and then use the pipe on the breaker bar to see how close the click torque wrench is.
I usually hit the lug nuts with the electric impact so I only have a partial turn to reach torque. Our inverter will power the 110V impact pretty easily.
Pierce
I have a 600 lb. torque wrench and when I first bought my snow tires for the
Monaco and they tighten one wheel over 1000 lbs. so it took over 5 ft. of pipe
on my 3/4 drive ratchet. I don't let anyone put my wheels on anymore.
Note that different types of Never Seez or other brands have different percentages to reduce the torque required. Never Seez Mariner's Choice calls for a 41% reduction of the dry torque. Never-Seez 30803826 Mariner's Choice Anti-Seize, 16 oz Brush Top Can: Floor... (https://www.amazon.com/Never-Seez-30803826-Mariners-Choice-Anti-Seize/dp/B00462CAB0)
Pierce
So Alcoa says to use engine oil on threads. So haven't they already used a torque reduction from "dry" to determine a recommended torque for there installation? I'm concerned that you may be actually under their recommended clamping force requirements? But I'm only speculating. Lot of variables once you start deviating from recommended procedures. Just cautiously curious. I do know engine oil and 4 foot 600 capacity foot pound torque wrench has become a workout torquing several wheels. Was a lot easier 20 years ago.
Scott
I've used the recommended 450 ft lbs minus any percentage for the N.S. since time began. Alcoa recommends 450-500 dry with a torque reduction for a couple drops of oil. I don't use oil but N.S. instead. Never had any come loose. Alcoa may recommend oil as different brands or even within one brand of no sieze, the torque reduction is quite a bit different. Just a guess.
Installing dry invites corrosion and rust.
I like to lightly electric gun them down, follow with more torque with the electric gun followed by the pipe on breaker bar in the recommended pattern.
Pierce
And, if you still have any doubts about the torque multiplier, here is a good video (with children trying to narrate) of a fellow who has bent bars trying to remove the nuts. Even his HF Earthquake failed the test. He just bought a torque multiplier and is using it on one of his rear wheels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHTczMN2fdo
Pierce
Page 31 and 32 suggest oil and 450 to 500 lbs. torque. This is for hub piloted wheels not stud centered.
https://www.alcoawheels.com/alcoawheels/catalog/pdf/servicemanual-english.pdf
Yes, in my #21.
Pierce
I found the Pierce's video to be informative, but take exception to the comment about the Earthquake being junk. I am fortunate in that I am able to use a FD mechanic (works on fire engine chassis, etc) who will come to my property to do stuff I can't. When he was changing out my rear brake pads, I used the Earthquake to remove the lug nuts. He told me that his $600 Snap On could not do that, which he demonstrated. He bought an Earthquake that week. I've used this tool for a number of jobs that my air impact gun could not do.
Sven,
While I did say that Harbor Freight's air hose on the reel was "junk", it was the words of the fellow in the video about the Earthquake, not mine. The way your worded your post indicates that it was words that I used regarding your impact.
I use many HF products in the garage and on the coach. I never go to Sacramento without stopping at HF. Their air/hydraulic jack is first rate as well as many of their other tools. But for torque, I have found that both the 110V impacts were less powerful than advertised. In using an Earthquake air impact, the fellow in the video may not have had the proper pressure, may have used an air hose with an ID smaller and longer length than needed for the large impact and also may not have used any air tool oil as that almost always makes the tool more powerful.
His Earthquake impact was also air while yours is battery. Sort of like apples and oranges here.
Again, I have no ability to edit any of the words in a YouTube video.
Pierce
Pierce,
When writing about the video, I did not intend to imply that they were your words. As I mentioned, it was an informative video, and when he mentioned the Earthquake, I didn't realize he was talking about the air tool. In any case, my sensitivities weren't insulted as I have no particular loyalty to the brand. I have a great appreciation for the tools that have served me well, and like to pass that along. I also have well used Makita, Milwaukee, Rigid and Delta driver/drills and impact drivers (different sizes and locations).
I'll probably have to do the tag axle air bags soon and wanted to figure out the most cost effective setup to pull the wheels. I don't plan to ever have to do this on the side of the road, just at home with the convenience of power and air if need be.
Reading through this thread, it seems like the multiplier is the preferred way to get the lugs off, but I haven't determined the best way to tighten them back up to spec. A few posts mention a 300# torque wrench and anti-seize, Scott mentioned a $500 Milwaukee cordless impact, Pierce mentioned a $90 HF corded impact...but was that for tightening as well as removal?
Another choice is a 3/4 inch 600 lb. torque wrench,found a 600 lb. Proto for $165 on Ebay.A 300 pounder will not work.
A picture of one is in my first post here
I do have a couple of big impact, electric and air but here is what I have now that works really well. For existing tight lug nuts, I bought a torque multiplier as seen on my earlier posts. Lots of YouTube videos on how it works and how easy it is. After the wheel has been removed, changed, fixed, whatever, I clean the threads removing all the rust/corrosion. I then wire wheel the nuts to do the same as the threads on the studs and then hit them with a little paint. I then use Mariner's Choice Never Seez Amazon.com: Never-Seez NMCBT-8 Black Gray Mariners Choice Anti-Seize, 8 oz.... (https://www.amazon.com/Never-Seez-NMCBT-8-Mariners-Choice-Anti-Seize/dp/B017XP7NTA/ref=sr_1_20?crid=2YQ7KB1FPS6MV&keywords=marine+grade+never+seez&qid=1652898070&sprefix=marine+greade+never+seez%2Caps%2C1493&sr=8-20) and put a little on the threads but never on the mating surfaces. It allows a 41% reduction of torque so I torque to 300#. All Never Seez are not the same and have much different torque reduction so this is the only one to use. Wheel manufactures can't recommend doing it as the torque requirements are so different and a lose wheel could cost them lots of $$$. With the tire not having any load on it from touching the ground, I spin the nuts on with my 1/4" Makita torque drill/driver. Once they are seated, I use a 3/4" 50-300 lb torque wrench like seen here for $60-$70 3/4" ADJUSTABLE REVERSIBLE TORQUE WRENCH 50-300 ft/lb. | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/303193369896?hash=item4697bbad28:g:buIAAOSwGxBdCWjC) and torque the nuts to 300#. Never allow the coach to have weight on the tire until the wheel is torqued. To remove the nuts, I use the same torque wrench or a breaker bar to loosen a turn or so and then my 1/4" Makita cordless to spin them off. Once torqued, slide the plastic/steel nut covers on or first install a loose nut indicator like these: 100 x CHECKPOINT® Yellow Indicators Loose Wheel Nut Safety Pointer Cover... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/283824856742?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D239195%26meid%3D8dc3a5175fce48dc822deaaf2253cfaa%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D185037877143%26itm%3D283824856742%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedWithRevOpt90NoRelevance&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A2838248567428dc3a5175fce48dc822deaaf2253cfaa%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABQFVvFeUTQhL4KP79koL%252B4Ydgokeb2CQrAyC%252BOwbdpQetV2qAC7C3Vu0XLY04JD2l73LYnMyfSHCKvxS7d%252F15SZlydoOOGTzprPO8qZrjfCQtFuG5eVnDk%252Ba4EUcnHsTsx13EiI%252FUoE0hybqCLRTzLotD1gMI7Asjhg5sdXL0%252F3aJAfiAvXDuEb%252BdzUqDE3xNUD%252FeleKJ9OpillSZa8VjdUKEotm2d0vrUxHKlxIV3mkWbZvxRDjQ%252FuT7oxSGiJCCiTnMnufwZ%252FasQpCqTRvuTUemEVnXh5nom3ZotMcYnFvAHPrv6RLs93me8pCRDDtmtxfo%252FrpyjNuZWRMnC7mMkwaNZEjg7wPJtDIbw2EsIt1rDbzXdXxkVrMi80VVyF64Gz4VKeq2E7qzMgrX8ZbP4f0hszYYcmy34qKATXK9sx2%252F%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675)
Note that the torque multiplier can't be used on the rear wheels with the big stainless moon covers on as they are held on by every other wheel nut. I removed ours as you also can't pull an axle with the covers on. Smaller stainless moon covers will fit over the hub and make wheel and axle removal much easier/faster.
You still need to check the type of wheel you have, the size of the nuts and for the stainless moon covers, the axle/hub diameter.
Before you take 41% off the torque, you need to know what the recommended torque is for your coach. Note that some coaches will have left hand threads on the driver's side. I bought a used wood splitter with a broken stud from the owner using an air wrench CCW to remove left hand threaded nuts.
Pierce
1) A suitable jack.
2) 3/4" drive socket and the matching breaker bar.
2a) Eyeglasses for reading the end of the stud.
3) A really big torque wrench.
Power tools are a fast way to get into trouble.
A torque multiplier is a great way to strip the threads if you miss that "L" on the end of the stud and didn't notice that the thread's spiral comes off to the right.
At home? One of those tire handler things to help you move the tire around.
Kieth just borrow tools. I have everything you need except motivation
Scott
Thanks Scott, that might be the best answer yet!
The $90 corded HF impact won't come close to removing the lug nuts. I originally used it to remove and snugging the nuts once they had been loosened. Too many cords so now I just use the little 1/4" 18V Makita to do the same thing.
The battery Snap-On, Milwaukee impact will remove the nuts if not too tight. One battery to loosen, one battery to tighten. If a tire shop has installed the wheel, it may be too tight just as the YouTube "Grease Monkey" found out. He even broke the handle on the torque multiplier. Think he went sideways a bit as it's pretty light weight compared to the tool itself.
Remember that you have to have the proper "flip socket" to remove the inside rear on some Foretravels. Check to see if stud (Budd) or hub piloted. Identify Hub-piloted VS Stud-piloted wheels – Phoenix Coach Global Store (https://store.phoenixcoachglobal.com/identify-hub-piloted-vs-stud-piloted-wheels/)
Pierce
Keith's 03 will have hub piloted/metric wheels. The change from Budd wheels to metric/hub piloted came around coach build #5200 in late '97 early '98.
Mike
Cash, credit cards, checkbook, good friend willing to change the tire.
I was quite surprised how easy it actually is to change the tires other than the actual weight of muscling them around. I'm still planning on building a box trailer using the 22.5 hub piloted wheels.
Not so easy to do when your dominant hand doesn't want to work. Or when there are weight restrictions because of all the damn surgeries and age.
But we persevere and either take the time to do the work around(s), or whip out our debit card and say those magic words: "Please Help Yourself."
Our spare is in the compartment and I try to lift the driver's side with the air and then pull it out a little and rotate it to the verticle position. I roll it to where ever it is going on (front right the last time) and then saw it back and forth until the holes match the studs. I raise it up with the air jack until the studs are centered on the wheel to be removed and then lean the top of the tire toward me and saw back and forth a little until the holes clear the studs and then more aggressive sawing until it clears the fender. I always lean the tire against something so it's never horizontal on the ground. Putting the spare on is just the reverse procedure. You can saw the tire as fast or as slow as you feel like. Will weld up a tool to allow the air jack to raise the front with a flat tire and i-beam close to the ground.
The only times I have to get on the ground the to place the air jack and remove it. The control on the hose allows adjusting from outside not under the coach.
Pierce
The only part I found hard in pulling the wheels was getting them off and thanks to Scott for
the shovel technique that is now easy. As I run snow tires in the winter I change the rears
twice a year. This year I will pull the front wheels to check the brakes. If the nuts are too tight
for the Milwaukee impact I use a 3/4 drive ratchet with a 10 an extension 33mm socket and 5 ft.
of pipe. When I first got snow tires the tire shop put them on and my son estimated that 2 of the
nuts were on at 1200 ft. lbs. That took more pipe. Nobody touches my wheel now.
ANYTHING is possible to he or she that is willing to have the desire and put in the effort.
Probably everybody here has the plastic by which to take the easy approach....I for one trust no one to do what I can accomplish myself. Been screwed by or seen poor workmanship too many times. " Be glad to screw you again sir, sorry about that, go have a seat and we will correct that when we get to you"...no thanks.
For my Freightliner Mt55 with the 7/8" studs and M33 nuts which has the integral washer, they recommend a drop of oil on the washer/nut bearing surface and a drop on the stud threads. 450-500 ft lbs. torque for the steel rims.
I bought the Milwaukee M18 3/4" drive also. That is one sweet tool. When I get the nuts torqued properly I'll set the impact to match. And it is loud, hearing protection suggested.
I bought the Milwaukee 1/2 drive fuel that had 1400 ft lb of loosening torque and 1200 ft lb of tightening torque I use a torque multiplier that looks like a ratchet heat it has a 4 to 1 turning reduction but the torque is around 3.4 to 1. I set my 250 lb torque wrench at 145 lb so it gives me a torque of around 490 to 500 lbs for the lug nuts
Chris
Like the old saying:"Mind over matter". But, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter.
There have been times when I am stymied about something and the DW will come out and make a suggestion. AND IT WORKS!!!
(don't you just hate that?)) :))
I was thinking the exact same thing :-) The only torque I experience anymore is the downward weight of my coffee up on my wrist while I watch the young guys wrestle those tires......