Hello Foretravel Community,
My name is Kye McLaughlin, I have created an account on here and made this first post to bring some light to a mystery about a user here named geomm and a 1995 U300SE coach #4612.
Michael McLaughlin (geomm) was a somewhat active poster in the forums (mostly tech talk) about 5 to 10 years ago. Some of you may have talked with him about his adventure de-mothballing his 1995 U300SE CAT 3176 (#4612) as his pre-retirement project. His posts abruptly stopped shortly after he had posted his "#4612 Rolls Again" topic In April 2016, where he talked about finally getting the U300 back on the road for its first (small) maiden voyage to its new home in Southern California.
Well.... it still brings me great sadness to inform all of you that we lost Michael (my father) on May 29th, 2016 in a freak accident. He was surrounded by family when he passed but we were not able to have any time to talk with him before he was gone. As a result, it has been a whirlwind of searching for answers and piecing the puzzle together to figure out what happened and how to proceed after his passing.
After a lot of jumping through hoops and many complications since we lost him, I finally have the coach in my ownership and back to a registered and fully insured state. All this time #4612 has been sitting on the side of a house not moving or running. As I was going through his things I came across this website and found some of his posts. This has given me hope to get it back to life. I am mechanically inclined and have a good working knowledge of motor vehicles of most types but this is a pretty new level for me.
After some silent lurking on the forums here and other google searches, I went down to the coach the other day, put 3 new batteries in, and, to my delight, it fired right up and ran smoothly after about 3-5 seconds holding the ignition button. For 10-15 minutes I anxiously ran around it checking for any leaks or weird things I could see, not really knowing what I am looking for, or at.
Airbags filled, the coach came off resting on the tires and it seemed to be holding air fine. I turned the engine off after 10-15 minutes as I was thinking that was the ideal time between "only turn it over a few times" and "let it run to full warm-up" that I found in my searches for the best process of getting a big diesel like this to run after sitting for 5 1/2 years.
So here I sit, wanting to finally get this project finished and back on the road but without any real knowledge of where he was at in the process other than what I can see and what I have read on here :help:. Since finding the "Rolls Again" post and the fact the coach starts with ease I have decided the best thing to do to start this process is get new tires (even though these were brand new when he drove it over to its spot :headwall:) and get the main fluids checked and changed as needed.
Questions:
-Any other suggestions for things to check/change/service right away?
-Main culprits I should keep an eye out for?
-Does anyone on here know anything about this coach in particular, or my father's progress on it?
-Suggestions for roadside service/Clubs/etc to join/get other than the AAA I got with my insurance?
-Could anyone offer any assistance finding service providers in the Ventura County Area? Possibly mobile services?
Thank you all in advance.
Kye
I am sorry for your loss. It reminded me of losing my dad who was 52 in 1959 when I was 16. I still think of him and how I learned from him every day. Your dad had to be exceptional for you to get this far with the FT project. I live in Eugene, Oregon so I'm unable to assist you regarding the Ventura area. However, I am more than happy to help with any other questions by personal message, available to you from me on the forum. I will watch your thread and chime in if I can assist.
Welcome Kye to the Forum. I was fairly new to the Forum in the 2013-2016 years, but I do remember seeing posts from your father. Since his (your) '95 U300 is a model similar to our '93 U280, I would have been very interested in any of his posts. In case you haven't already found it, below is a link to your father's profile page on the Forum. That page contains a link which will lead you to every single post made by your father, ordered from most recent back to the very first one. You could fill in your profile page (signature) with the same coach info your father used. Having that info in your signature helps us provide better answers when you post questions on the Forum.
https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2389
The way we all learn on this Forum is by talking about common subjects of interest to all members. The accumulated Foretravel experience and knowledge found here is priceless, yet it is available to everyone free of charge! The "Search" function, found at top right corner of every page, is a powerful tool. In many cases, if you have a specific question, searching for a few appropriate key terms will yield a wealth of information.
You will get some great answers to your questions, I am sure. Bringing old classic Foretravel coaches back to life is a favorite subject around here. What we suggest will depend a great deal on what you tell us about the current condition. It is very helpful if you can post photos when you ask about a certain item on the coach. Foretravel was famous for continually changing the components used to build the coaches. Two units that went down the assembly line the same day or week might be built with totally different parts.
About the tires. 2016 tires are close to being "timed out" but might still be serviceable for a short time. We generally suggest replacing tires when they get to be about 6-8 years old. If, when you acquired the coach, any of the tires were sitting completely flat then they must be replaced. A coach sitting on flat tires destroys them. If the tires were kept inflated the whole time the coach was parked, then they might still be OK. Cracks in the tread area that expose the cord or badly decomposed sidewalls are a red flag. Bottom line, the best idea might be to replace them and start out with fresh tires.
Good luck with your project. We're here to help any way we can!
Kye,
WELCOME!
Please let us know if your goal is to restore the coach for your use or if you want to get it to a condition for sale.
That would make a difference in what is recommended.
Jack - Thank you for the kind words. I will be sure to PM you if I find something requiring further investigating. I really appreciate the offer.
Chuck & Jeannie - I appreciate all the information and the warm welcome. I am learning my way around the forums so that information is super helpful with that, thank you.
As for the tires, they have been covered and inflated the whole time. My father put down squares of plywood on the gravel when he parked it, it has since sunk about 4-6 inches into the gravel/dirt that it's on. The tires look basically brand new, I have not seen any cracking or signs of damage to them. The coach body was resting on the tires as the airbags had either slowly deflated or my father deflated them when he parked it. Airbags filled right up when it started and it came off the tires with no signs of rubbing on the tires themselves.
Wolfe - Thank you for the welcome. My goal is to use the coach myself. I am relocating to Virginia/The Carolinas and will have the space to keep it and use it.
I look forward to learning about these machines and interacting with the community more!
If driving cross country and keeping the coach:
Change all fluids and filters. As I recall, that Caterpillar engine has an aluminum spacer between block and head. That makes condition of the coolant extremely important.
Do a "smell test" on the diesel. If it smell "off" dispose of it. Do not run bad fuel through your expensive fuel injection system. Check the fuel hose (tank to filters to injection pump). Look for cracks where the fuel line goes into the primary fuel filter. Cracks may never show diesel leaking out, as that is in the suction side of the fuel pump. But, it can allow air to be sucked in and that can damage the fuel injection pump as well as reduce engine performance.
From sitting that long, likely the air disk brake slide pins are seized and could result in the "lazy side" not retracting from the disk. That can do a lot of damage. You will either need to study up on servicing of air disk brakes OR find someone who is familiar with them (I believe many fire trucks have the same brake system, so you may be able to find one of their techs who is interested in moonlighting. Install helper springs at the same time. Never allow anyone to use regular chassis grease on the brakes!
New tires-- even if they look great, they are at a much higher risk of catastrophic failure..
Look at air bags. If deep cracks, replace them.
Doing the maintenance yourself to bring this great coach back to reliable condition will run in the range of $10-15k.
I know this probably sounds like quite a lot (and it is). But you are talking about bringing back a 26 year old complex machine to cross country trip reliability. And preventive maintenance is almost always quite a lot less expensive than breakdown maintenance. And, a heck of a lot more convenient vs on the side of the road.
Just keep in mind that you are bring back one of the very best coaches/drivetrains of all times!
Kye, welcome and sorry for your loss. Brett make a very good point keep or flip. These are genuinely different than a new diesel truck and I always seem to be reminded of a 1987 Cadillac Deville with all the crazy but needed systems. IMO great coach and project.
So any rubber product that is twenty plus years old is at the end of its life. I undertook a low mileage abandoned coach and it literally took me a year or more to get it back up to a dependable state. I do believe that anything that would normally fail during that time will fail in the coming months. Been fairly close to that but acceptable. Yesterday I changed the microwave plate rotator motor. It's seems to be never ending but certainly slowing down. We have accumulated about 15k miles since purchase and every trip we appreciate the quality of the coach more and more. That being said it's still dated commercial equipment and was designed for years of service mechanically. Great project if you decide to keep and I can't say enough good things about the availability of skill at your finger tips.( here) Many others have resolved what you are now taking on prior. 👍👍 learn to use the search function
Scott
Welcome, Kye. I'm am very sorry for the loss of your dad. Your connection to him via the coach is remarkable. Your circumstance is the definition of a "labor of love". I am about 2 hours south of you in Orange County. There are unique challenges to owning a Foretravel in Southern California as we are a distant outpost. I would recommend getting involved with the California chapter of the Motorcade Club. You'll meet some really great people who are just plain fun to be around, and they have a wealth of knowledge on how to solve coach issues locally. We all have reliable and trusted local sources that we've found over the years. I can't think of a more worthwhile project and wish you all the best. Feel free to message me anytime. All the best.
Welcome . Glad to hear that you are going to keep the bus and use it as your Dad hoped that it would get used.
This reminds me to make a list of things that I have done to my bus along with service parts numbers as Im sure that the bus will out live me .
I have replaced a lot of stuff with either more serviceable newer parts , or simply parts that I prefer. Any future user wil have a hard time without some guide .IMHO.
REALLY SMART to keep a service log. Not only for the next guy, but as I get older I find myself referring back to it. "When did I last do that?"
Welcome Kye, and our condolences on your loss. I had several "text/email" with your Dad, He did alot of work..ie Fuel lines etc. I have the identical coach #4719. We are located in Upstate SC near Landrum ,if you need help feel free to contact me.
Hans
Kye I'm sorry for your loss but glad to hear his old coach wound up in your hands. I too picked up an old coach that had sat for a while. Here's a list of what I've put into my coach so far in the ~10 months that I've owned it. As you can see I'm a little shy of $6k and I did most of the labor myself. I've highlighted the items in bold text that I'd consider essential. I was fortunate to get mine with new tires.
I suggest you put the coach in "raise" mode and THEN inspect all your bags for leaks. Three of mine had internal failures that could only be noticed while under full pressure.
The first thing I would buy are 8 "safety blocks" that you can use to block the coach up while you crawl around underneath. Much of the work you'll be doing will require those.
Good luck and I look forward to watching your journey.
X2 But they can be 11+" long. Raise as hi as you can go and measure next to the air bags between the structure and make a little shorter. Coach should of had issued with when new IMO.
Scott
Kye,
Another question that will assist us in offering you advice:
How mechanically skilled are you and how much of the work to you see yourself doing vs hiring it out?
Hans,
Awesome! I remember him telling me he had found someone with a near-identical coach to his, suppose that is you. I will definitely be reaching out as this thing comes back to life.
Additionally, the plan is to get the coach to our new place in the Southern Virginia area so they will be getting closer to each other soon.
thank you,
Elliott,
Where is a source for these blocks or did you have them fabricated?
thanks,
Wolfe,
I am pretty mechanically inclined as I spent a lot of time working with my father on his race cars and other projects over the years. With that said I have limited internal engine/drivetrain knowledge/practice and would not feel comfortable with those types of tasks no matter the vehicle (not including small engines like lawnmowers etc).
I have more of a time issue than anything right now, so as much as I would like to get full hands-on experience with these tasks I will be looking to hire most of it out to get this thing ready for its first test voyage from S. California to N. California (Marin county).
I know that my father did a lot of the "plastic and rubber" replacements already including the fuel lines and most of the fuel replaceable/issue parts if I'm not mistaken. As you suggested, I plan to have all fluids and filters replaced when it is serviced.
thanks,
Have fun with your Dads coach and there is a lot members willing to give great
advice.
Kye,
Excellent.
Hopefully someone can recommend a reasonable tech in your area.
For those jobs you want to tackle yourself, just let us know what they are and we can help with the "step by step".
Actually, much of the "fluids and filters" is easier on a motorhome because of clearance under the coach, though volumes are higher. I would rather change engine and transmission fluid and filters on the motorhome than on a car with close to no ground clearance and under-engine shields. Just get a Rubbermade tub to catch the oil.
Kye, I'm also sorry for your loss of your father. But having his coach will help in keeping his memory alive as you bring the coach back to life.
I'm in San Diego and would be glad to offer any advice/help if I can. Feel free to PM me.
Some members have them cut out of 2" square heavy wall tubing stock. Others buy them from their local Harbor Freight store. The 12" x 2" receiver tube works great for this purpose. However you procure them, be sure to get 8 pieces.
https://www.harborfreight.com/class-iii-12-in-x-2-in-standard-receiver-tube-69879.html
The safety stands are placed between the frame members, just inboard from the air bag. One stand for each bag - 8 total. See thread below:
Safety Stand Placement (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=38814)
I used the harbor freight hitch extensions chuck mentions but ended up having to cut them down an inch. It seems some rigs can fit a 12" block and others 11". Now that I've chased down most of my air leaks I think I could get a 12" in most of my corners.
I feel like that is one of those big savings areas I can do. I do have couple of questions though.
1. I have been thinking I can do this myself but my biggest concern has been what to do with the used oil?
2. What type of coolant do these use? I read a post about having to have the coolant tested and then adding something to it to bring its SEP(?) content to the right level? Could I not just get away with a full drain and refill with the appropriate fluid type?
-I read in a post a while back that my father was under the impression the 3176B did not have the aluminum plate you talked about? Any chance you know if that was ever confirmed?
3. Is the transmission and rear-end fluid something easily done as well?
Thanks,
In our area, AutoZone and O'Reilly's will take used oil. Getting rid of the used coolant is more challenging. The only place I can find locally is the city Hazwaste disposal site.
For dumping the used oil, I have also had good luck at our local Walmart and Sam's auto service bays.
I'm lucky here as we have a city recycling place near me that takes both oil and
antifreeze. I would google "where can I get rid of old oil in your area".
ANSWERS IN SOLID LETTER CAPS
I'll interject a thought. As you said time is an issue. You will unfortunately find that scheduling a maintenance appointment at an RV repair shop can be long frustrating process. As you are looking at mostly taking care of the drivetrain to get the coach back east safely. I would suggest to avoid an RV shop like the plague and use a reputable truck repair shop instead. The truck shops are not usually scheduled months in advance like RV shops are. A truck shop can inspect and repair those slide pins on the brake calipers and deal with any other oily things that need fixing or lubing.
EDIT to add: You might even check into flat bedding the coach back East. I have no idea what the cost is. But it can be an option if you ultimately run out of time to get everything in order.
Guessing 5-7k for flatbed. Last resort. Throw the timetable out if you want to be on schedule. Everything will sort its self out, but at its schedule. Took me like ten days to get home with our coach. Couple of relax days in there too.
Scott
Wanted dead or alive (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=39809.msg392968#msg392968)
Reading your dad's posts air bags replaced 5 years ago along with new Yokohama tires. The tires are only 5 years old and if were covered probably just need to be inspected.
If your dad did airbags and fuel lines I would bet he had it serviced properly. Did he
drive it much, what does the oil look like. If everything looks good I would go and
get extra fuel filters and maybe change the fuel filter after a thousand miles or so.
It's a lot easier to get things done when you get home.
If you decide to run the fuel in the tank now, add a fuel treatment and a biocide. Also have a least one set of fuel filters on board in case you need to change them on the road.
Biocide: Amazon.com: Biobor JF Diesel Biocide and Lubricity Additive, 16-Ounce :... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014434DG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Lots better prices out there than Amazon
Biobor BB16EZ01US-2 .57 Diesel Fuel Biocide, 16 oz. | Zoro.com (https://www.zoro.com/biobor-diesel-fuel-biocide-16-oz-bb16ez01us-2/i/G5770716/?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=&utm_campaign=202002_ShippingConfirm_Transactional_None_All_None_1&smtrctid=164082220)
To be sure it wouldn't be cheap. But then burning vacation time to travel clear across the country. Hotels, Eating out, Etc. Along with the added stress of working on or having the coach worked on in a place you don't know very well while also being short on time. It can result in a bad decision because of the lack of time. But yes, It's a last resort sort of thing.
Bigdog,
Yeah, I figured that out, where were you 6 months ago!? (kidding, I should have started posting here months ago). After some research, I figured out this was beyond most RV shops and after a couple of calls found that they were booked out for months as you stated. I found these to be more like a Bus/Semi than an RV when it comes to the drivetrain components so I have been looking for heavy-duty diesel mechanics. I think I might start calling the semi-truck guys and seeing what they say.
Thanks,
Craneman,
I guess I am going to have the tire shop pull a couple, look at them, and see what they say. I know they are going to try to tell me they all need replacing but I worked at Big O Tires in college so I know a lot of the bulls*** tire shops pull, hopefully, that helps me with getting the facts lol. Fingers crossed!!
Thanks,
If they are Michelins , change them . Any other brand should be OK as long as they get to be round with driving .
Oldguy,
From what I have pieced together/remember him telling me (and knowing him), he did all the services himself as he was very mechanically inclined and wanted to know this thing like the back of his hand by the time he retired into it. He was "de-mothballing" this from a long stint sitting at a storage yard so he actually only drove it once, that was about 5-6 years ago when he moved it from the spot he was working on it, to the spot at our friend's house where he was living in it full-time and getting ready for retirement.
I believe he did a lot, if not all, of the fluids over the 3-4 years he was working on it (5-8 years ago). When I checked the oil before starting it, it looked like the oil that was in my F-250 7.3L when it was halfway between oil changes (2500-3000 miles), dark, but clear of any noticeable contamination or shiny flakes of any kind. I don't know if that helps explain it.
I definitely plan to have a couple of extra filters onboard with me for the trip, I read those are a common cause of breakdown in these situations.
Thanks,
Bigdog,
I am not super stressed on time I am hoping to get him ready to hit the road to N. California for the first semi-long-range test run by mid december. As for driving out east, I have 2-3 weeks open to make the drive so I am going to take my time.
Protech,
Well, they are Yokohama's so I hope you are right!
All of you wonderful people,
I am going to be heading down to the coach on Wednesday I believe so I will be posting a bunch of photos and some other Topics to cover some of the main areas of concern, any suggestions other than the obvious (post tech talk in.. tech talk) that I should know? If I am going to be bombarding the forum with pictures and such I want to have the proper etiquette on here when doing so. I come from a generation (millennials....) where most of us lack the ability to interact in a way that is mature and respectful, I am trying to "break the stereotype" here as I know this is going to be a great resource and community for me to be part of.
Thanks in advance!
You can save yourself a lot of headaches if you install a quick drain for the oil. Use the vacuum cleaner method for installing the quick drain the first time so you don't make a mess. If you have a 8.3 Cummins, be REALLY CAREFUL not to damage the aluminum threads. Once you have installed a quick drain, you never have to worry again!
NAPA and other autoparts stores take used oil in many places. Call ahead. Read oil posts on how to change oil and filter. Buy a strap wrench that uses a 1/2" or 3/8" breaker bar to operate. They are fool proof and will even remove spinoff air dryer cartridges.
Pierce
There are two places that I know of in Riverside County where they do mechanical service routinely on rigs like ours with the HD drive trains. One is Colton Truck Terminal :: COLTON TRUCK TERMINAL GARAGE :: (http://coltontruckterminalgarage.com/), which I have used twice, and Redland Truck and RV Redlands Truck and RV Maintenance and Repair Service (http://www.redlandstruckservice.com/)
Colton doesn't do remodeling or any RV house stuff, but many Foretravel owners have used it for mechanical work.
Redlands won't let you stay with the coach or watch the work, Colton does (or did) let you stay in the coach where practical and watch the work. That settled it for me.
Don
I have Yokohama tires. They work just fine. There is a plant in Mississippi that makes Yokohama tires now.
I will look into the quick drain. It has a Caterpillar 3176B in it so hopefully no aluminum threads but I will be extra careful with that in mind.
I think I have filter wrenches that will work but I will double-check, good looking. Thanks
The filters can be very tight. A heavy duty strap wrench like these works well.
Strap Wrench
(https://www.amazon.com/GEARWRENCH-3529D-Heavy-Filter-Wrench/dp/B00B2LV4DS/ref=sr_1_8?crid=3NY0R33CT539K&dchild=1&keywords=heavy%2Bduty%2Bstrap%2Bwrench&qid=1635797448&sprefix=heavy%2Bduty%2Bstrap%2Bwren%2Caps%2C217&sr=8-8&th=1)Some folks recommend ensuring the filter is loose, then punching a hole in the bottom to drain it.
I used a large storage tub lined with a heavy duty trash bag to catch the oil and minimize cleanup. If you install the quick drain, in the future you can drain directly into old jugs.
Pan is aluminum......4 drain points, all are on the "side" of pan......not been an issue for me in the last 10 years
H
I would just check all the fluids and head out and change your oil when you get home. It's too bad there isn't
a drain valve on the bottom of the fuel tank but what I would do is find some kind of pump, a small hand pump
would work, and drain off some of the fuel from the bottom of your tank so you can check it out. If it is clean
you are good to go and if not pump it out until it comes clean.
My experience with Yokohama's was that they outlasted all the other brands as far as sidewall cracks.
So when you reinstall put a dab of DC-4 grease on the filter seal and it will remove the same as it installs. Works on oil and fuel filters. I cringe every time i change a new to me filter knowing how difficult they can be to remove. Completely resolves this issue.
Amazon.com: Dow Corning DC 4 Electrical Insulating Compound - 5.3 oz Tube :... (https://www.amazon.com/Dow-Corning-Electrical-Insulating-Compound/dp/B001VXSAI4/ref=sr_1_5?crid=9S52R2YCOV87&dchild=1&keywords=dc4+grease&qid=1635803212&sprefix=Dc4+%2Caps%2C140&sr=8-5)
Scott
Be sure to SMELL the diesel before deciding whether to drive, treat or remove.
Destroying a fuel injection system because of bad diesel is not a good $$ decision.
Not suggesting it isn't fine, but you need to verify.
Kye,
I'm glad you are able to take over what your Dad started.
I have taken our coach to Interstate Fleet Maintenance in South Gate (East Los Angeles). I know they have worked on our and at least one other member's Foretravel coaches. If your unable to find something closer to Ventura you may consider taking it there. We live in Orange County and its worth the drive up to LA. Your likely better served putting the 75 miles in the direction your heading.
I use one of these reusable 5-gallon jugs to transport used oil. Not as cheap as the 1 gallon containers but I hate stopping and starting when pouring from the catch pan to gallon bottles.
Amazon.com: 5 Gallon Plastic Hedpack with cap : Health & Household (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064O8OYK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Oldguy,
I was thinking I should have the oil and coolant changed at a minimum and just check the others to make sure they are full. ALthough maybe other fluids are more important to change first?
Change the diff and trans fluid if you can . The metal housing collects moisture. Use the cheap oils at this point and monitor the color for whiteish stuff. If it changes color, change it again later .
Same with the front hubs . Roll the tire around and let out the plug. Add some synthetic GL4-5 to the lower line . Keep an eye on it as well as everything that turns or has fluid in it .
AS prior mentioned, verify that your brakes release clean . Disc brakes dont sit well .
I used a small clear tube and put it down to the bottom of the tank and then caped the other side with a finger so I could "grab a little sample", did that about 4 times and put all contents into a clear petri dish (maybe 30ml or so). Looked clear and smelled like diesel.... I think there is about a 1/4 - 1/3 of a tank. When I started it, it seemed to start and run fine with it. My thought was to fill it up completely to "dilute" the existing diesel, a good idea?
The Lincoln welder on my service truck is still running fine with 10 year old diesel in it
Was always told the answer to pollution was dilution. That's what it did. I was certain the fuel i had was not bio diesel and growth was not a issue but it did smell old.
Scott
IM also confident your father had fuel stabilizer in it with all the other work
The way I've always heard the adage: "the solution to pollution is dilution"... rolls off the tongue nicely
Same thing only different. Yes I do believe that was actually the saying, I was pretty close. Lol
Scott,
I think you might be right, I am going to look in the bay where he stored all the extra fluids, spray cans, and grease and see if there is some in there. Something tells me I will find a partially used bottle of it. I think he would have put that in there knowing that he was planning to park it for at least a year while he finished it.
Update with getting #4612 back up and going:
-I changed the oil and filter. Now I understand why people suggested the drain valve upgrade, it came out like a damn firehose!! I will be putting one of those in on the next oil change of course.
-I drained the coolant that was in the system at multiple points and refilled it with distilled water and flushed it twice. I then replaced the coolant with Cat Ec-1 coolant using an airlift system to ensure there were no air pockets. I replaced the SCA coolant filter with a non SCA replacement. I noticed that there were two hoses installed at the areas that people talked about purging trapped air from, they both ran back to the radiator reservoir tank, an auto-purge system I suspect? Cool if so.
-I had to replace two airbags (closest to the front on the rear axle) as one began to leak and the same bag on the other side was in equally bad shape.
-I discovered that my father had changed the transmission oil and presumably the gear oil in the rear differential right before he passed, about 5 1/2 years ago now. I checked them and they looked completely fresh and new.
-I balanced the tires at 90 psi (they were sitting at or very near 90 psi the whole time. They had sunken into the soft ground on our friend's side yard, so they were kinda "cupped" and were covered the whole time. They look completely new so I am going to keep a close eye on them but believe they will be able to make this one trip and then will be replaced.
-Did every test I could find in regards to the air brakes and airbag system, everything checked out.
With all of that in place, I decided it was time to take it out for a spin around the neighborhood to get some things moving, twisting, and turning so I could further asses the things that needed attention. Honestly, everything was pretty smooth overall. No big noises or noticeable vibrations (other than what is to be expected with something like this).
Then came the noise, at first it was a little thump coming from the front area of the coach. Then it turned into a sound similar to a slipping belt in the winter..... I brought the coach back to the house and inspected the front wheels for anything obvious and that is when I noticed that both front oil hubs were milky.... I popped the red cap out and saw dirty milk and what looks like surface rust on the nut and internals in there..... I am thinking this requires a whole new bearing, seal, Stemco front windows, and red plugs? Maybe more?
Does anyone have suggestions for how to get this fixed asap? If money is not really an issue for this what would you do to get this done?
Thank you for all your help in advance.
I have not done this job myself, but I've watched while a front wheel bearing on our coach was replaced at MOT. It took about 30 minutes since they had all the tools and the required parts on hand. I don't think there is anything really tricky about the operation. Any good truck repair shop should be able to handle it. The photos below might give you an idea what is involved:
Note: There has been some heated discussion here in the past on the subject of adjusting the bearing preload. I'm sure the subject will come up (again) as this thread progresses. Get the popcorn ready.
Any idea why they got water in them? I understand the caps may be the cause. Sounds like there will be bearing damage. Good luck
Thank you for the photos.
I have seen some of the pre-load debate, I still do not understand it, one of the reasons I am thinking best left to professional.
I have no idea. Honestly, there doesn't seem to be a way for it to get in there. Maybe from my father using a pressure washer at some point?
Nor do I (understand it). Never hurts to go to a pro if that makes you feel more comfortable, plus you can usually learn something (if they let you watch).
One example of the discourse below:
Wheel seal--Stemco (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=33605)
Any idea of what part numbers I am going to be needing here? Are these going to be something we have to order or should this be something they can get the same day?
Thanks,
Try sending a PM or email to Mike - he may be able to help with the part numbers and advice. Tell him where you are located.
https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=profile;u=820
If you are mechanically inclined and have the proper tools (including large 500#+ torque wrench, sockets, jack etc) this is a very easy job. Tons of videos online. That being said, not the right tools and this would be really hard. There really should not be any debate on preload. Whatever the axle spec sheet says is what I would do. Sorry I don't have specifics for your coach but I done lots of wheel bearings. I wish you luck!!
Curious; are you sure that is where the noise is coming from? First thing I would do is get a wheel in the air and spin the tire by hand. Any noises or grinding?
The bearings and seal should have part numbers on them and just go to a bearing
shop to buy them.
KM,
I'm kind of late to the discussion as grandkids at this time of year takes precedence. You have ask several questions and you have some of the answers but I will expand on the things both covered and not. Now these won't be in any given order just random thoughts.
The wheel bearing replacement work is just like any auto produced prior to sometime around 2000 just bigger. Now to answer the change question that will come up. Around 2000 some manufactures decide to install a non greaseable non replaceable bearing set in the front of some cars. If the rotor gets cut or bearing failure you get the hole assembly (inner bearing and rotor) all in one for a replacement. Now back on task from the side bar. If you have done an old pickup you can do these.
With each axle different you may or may not have the same bearings and seal as the next coach. Your best bet is to remove them from the rotor and look for the part numbers on each bearing and seal. The bearings can be sourced from either a bearing store, the net. or class 8 truck supply parts store. The seal will be a Stemco seal OEM but there may be an upgraded model for your application so check. The seal can be sourced from the net and the same truck supply store with the truck store being the best bet as they deal with these every day. A replacement set of gaskets and red plug can be got at same truck shop.
Now the wheel nut. There is a new nut available that is a slip nut once it starts slipping then the proper bearing play is achieved. This is similar to the auto industry mentioned above as some cars now have a shoulder on the axle where the bearing bottoms out. The wheel nut is torqued and there is no adjustment needed for the certified mechanics to screw up. Now I normally don't get into the pissing contest over preload and play but I will say that if you swing by my place and we help you do the bearings you will apply a dial indicator for proper spec. even if we use the new style nut.
Where the water came from? That may never be answered as sometimes it just happens. With it setting for a long time it could be from barometric pressure change and moisture in the air condensing inside. If the tires were covered then it wasn't rainwater seeping in. There are some people that have had this happen and never found the reason. So that ain't a great answer but all I got.
One thing that was kind of touched on is the sounds that you mentioned. The thumping and squeeling sure sounds like a brake caliper locked up from setting. With you needing to pull the wheel bearings you will have to at least swing the calipers out of the way on the bottom slide pin. So do the job right and go ahead and pull that pin and give them a good cleaning. Check the slack adjusters for adjustment and greasing. You need to copy the 4M disc brake book off of this sites library and give it a read before you start doing a brake job. Again this isn't hard just pay attention to the details READ THE BOOK and follow the directions. To keep you from looking here is one copy from the media section.
https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=4684
All for now and back to the toenail growing watch party
Mike
I am going to see if it's something I can attempt myself. My biggest issue is I do not have a large enough torque wrench to get the lugs torqued back on and that the coach is currently sitting on some soft ground so I would need to figure out a way to support the jack and stands so that they don't sink into the ground. Maybe it's worth investing in one, any crazy-sized nuts that I will have to deal with? I have a lot of sockets but only up to a certain size then it's a hit or miss.
For the sound. I thought maybe brakes at first too but the sound did not change when brakes were applied or released. The chirping changed tune when I turned the wheel, I want to say louder when turning the wheel to the right, all while moving of course.
It could be the wheel bearings, you will know when you look at them.
Yeah the number one thing would be a good solid way to lift the front of the coach. If you can't do that safely then I would not attempt to do it.
The torque wrench is an expensive tool investment but I bought one once I stepped up to the DP coach. I have not purchased the jack stands yet but use large 8x12 wooden blocks stacked. You will need a 12+ ton bottle jack (i bought a 20 ton)
You will also need some large hub nut sockets, not sure of the size. Prob 2-4+ inches. They make flimsy large format sockets for just these nuts and they are made of light gauge metal. Not too expensive.
All of these tools are a good investment if you plan to do more work down the road. Worse case you can also sell them and recover at least half the costs. One job done by yourself can pay for all the tools immediately vs. taking to a shop. YouTube is really your friend on this one. So much great content similar to what you will be working on, Not probably the exact setup but very similar. It is a learning curve compared to working on passenger cars but I have found it is all just bigger and heavier. Not any more difficult so far :)
Some basic knowledge helps here. There are two types of bearings that have pre-load. One is the angular contact bearing, usually reserved for very precise applications. In these the pre-load is built into the housing and shaft and all you have to do is tighten the big nut to specifications and bend over the locking tab.
The other type, mostly used in steer wheel bearings is the tapered roller bearing. IF a torque value is specified it is only to seat the bearings before backing off the big not to allow running clearance. Most applications specify how much of a wrench flat to "back off" the nut to obtain running clearance before inserting the cotter pin. The correct way is to use a dial indicator to measure the bearing clearance in one thousandths of one inch. Or, if you can't measure accurately you really don't know.
Well I have come up empty-handed so far in finding a repair shop that can tackle this within my 72-hour window. Even the mobile 24-hour mechanic said he couldn't get to it till late next week.... is there really that much of a backlog for this kind of work?
Looks like I will have to do this myself.... I was really trying to avoid this as I am not fully sure about the bearing load and do not have all my dials and tools here, they are up in Northern California, where my house is. I will have to buy a torque wrench and probably some sockets along with the parts. I think I can jack the coach up without too much issue, someone mentioned I have to jack both sides (left and right not front and back obviously) at once tho?? So I need two bottle jacks then (I already have 1 20-ton bottle jack)?
I did come across a weird thing when raising the coach to put the 11inch metal tube blocks in. The passenger rear does not lift as high as the rest of the corners? What could cause this?
Am I crazy thinking I can get this done by Monday?
It is possible that you are just not waiting long enough. If you are not doing so already, try the procedure listed in post linked below:
Safety Stand Placement (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=38814.msg379333#msg379333)
How far are you trying to drive the coach to get home?
I think the odds of getting the parts and installing them by Monday is slim. It may be possible if the bearings are not really bad that you could take everything apart and grease them up good to get you home a short distance. I would still want to be certain it is actually the bearings. before getting too crazy. Maybe just go use the bottle jack and get a tire in the air (one side at a time should be fine) just an inch or so and give them a spin by hand. Is there grinding noises coming from the hub?
I held the up arrow for well over a minute and it just seemed to top out about 2-3 inches lower than the rest.
I watch the air pressure gage and when it reaches over 120 lbs I shut off the key and
they are all up.
I need to drive it 600 miles home but then we are heading out for a long trip over multiple states.
I am pretty sure it's the bearings, given that there was water in there, probably for a couple of years, I can see rust when I take out the red cap and look at the nut in there. I am going to jack up each side now and give it a spin to see if it grinds but I can see what else would cause the rotational squealing sound other than a bearing. I know the brakes could hang but it rolls easily (guess hand turning it will confirm that) and applying the brakes and releasing them had no effect on the sound. It was purely based on speed.
Yup that sounds pretty convincing on the bearings. If you have a good truck parts shop that is open all weekend you have a chance! Otherwise get everything apart and ready for first thing monday morning at a parts shop. Bearings should be easy enough to find. The hub caps will be easy to find as well if needed. I would say a tear down is in order to see how bad things look.
They all do that when I start it but the clearance between the frames is only about 8 inches at that point. I have to air them all the way up using the up arrows to get the 11-inch metal blocks in between the frames.
The coach does level fine normally when I have all the air out I start it and it raises to about 7-8 inches clearance between frames and the coach is level. It's almost as if that set of bags thinks it at full pressure and stops filling.
I have a mobile mechanic that can come by Tuesday to get me squared away so that is my best hope so far. I am still going to check things out and make sure I am not having him come out for the wrong issue.
What do you mean by teardown? Isn't that essentially what I (or the mechanic) would be doing to remove it anyway?
I mean using the up arrows until the air pressure is over 120 lbs.
Teardown means take it apart and then you will know what you need.
Yup, take it apart and get parts needed list in order. If you wait for the mobile mechanic you could be down for several days after that if they tear it down and find parts that are not immediately available. If you do that now you have a heads start.
Hmm I guess I never really watched the gauge but looking at them now they both (red and white needles) read 120psi.
So I jacked up the driver's front just enough so I can turn the wheel. It moves about as freely as I would expect a mass this large to rotate. I do think the sound was coming from the passenger side but I wanted to have something to compare to so I did the driver's side first.
Question: I have a set or larger 6-ton jack stands, are those sufficient to hold up the front so I can have both wheels off the ground at the same time? If so where is the proper place to put them?
It's OK to jack up one side at a time.
So I jacked up the passenger side and to my surprise, it seems to be the same as the drivers. Spins freely, no noise, no in-out play (the way you test the bearings on a diesel pickup) everything is solid. Other than the milky/rusty oil in there, you would think these were fine.... I feel like I should have them replaced no matter after seeing the rust and water in the oil baths but is there anything else that could cause a squealing sound other than a bearing? Brakes seem to be fully disengaged and the tire rotates with ease.
EDIT: So I think the passenger side is a bit harder to turn and doesn't freely spin as well.
You won't know what you need to replace until you take it apart and look at it.
You may only have to clean everything up. If everything is good you might
want to change the seal and don't forget to grease the lip of the seal.
This growing old stuff sucks.
For an 800 mile drive, I'd replace the tapered roller bearings and races. When you examine what comes out you'll understand.
Thread drift.
I just noticed your post and found it interesting that my coach is #4614 but a 95 Unicoach U320. I was told that it was the first or close to the first Unicoach made. Your coach and mine must have nudged each other on the production line.
Continued thread drift...I'm also a 95 Unicoach but a u295c. #4750 They had a little more time to perfect the build for mine :) :) :)
I just read this thread. How well I remember your dad's posts and the excitement on the forum about resurrecting the SE.
I wish you well in getting this coach back on the road. .
Simply place jacks under the axle , near the outer ends.
Remove the outer bearing and use an eye loop to check for scratches . Finds any and toss all of them, after noting the bearing numbers on the pieces.
I have found water enters the front hubs at the red seal and without the hub caps. Water may drip off of the cap seam directly on the hubs. Also water/metal hear cycling can draw moisture inside the large cast iron chamber.
You should also have some way to block the axel so no accidents.
You may also see black spots on the rollers, caused either by rust or the metal spalling.*
* Spall - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall)
Wheel Bearing Pre-load (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37372.msg373281#msg373281)
Yes preload can be difficult to accurately attain. Probly the main reason the manufacture stays away from preload is that your at .001" preload your at the best possible state.
At .002" preload you have dropped to 60% of rated life down from the peak of rated life.
At a loose end play of zero you have dropped gone to 115% rated life.
At a loose end play of .001" you have dropped 110% rated life
At a loose end play of .002" you have dropped down to 97% rated life
At a loose end play of .008 you finally drop down to 50% rated life
From peak life one thousandth tight drops you to 60% rated life
From peak life nine thousandth loose to reach 50% rated life
Loose is critically better than too tight by one thousandth.
Also no one has mentioned the fact that your adjustment is made with two nuts. There IS free play between the nut and the axle threads and once the first nut is installed, the locking washer is placed and the second nut is torqued against it pushing it to a unknown preload value.
This is resolved with the single axle nut and lock ring
I am curious, what ever happened? Did mobile mechanic get you on the road? Did you tear it down yourself? Updates please 8)