So the coach was working fine the other day, started with no issues. I tried to start it today, no luck. First I got the clicking sound you normally get when you have a low battery. I threw the batteries on the charger to make sure they were full and then tried again. Same thing. Then I tried from the remote start in the engine compartment. I flipped the switch, buzzing started, oil pressure light on, then they slowly faded out, like as if they ran out of power. Now when I turn on the ignition key the dash doesn't even light up! I was thinking it was the ignition solenoid but now I am confused because it seems as though there is a different solenoid for the remote start in the engine bay? The chances of both going out is very low so I am thinking its something else?
Any Ideas?
It sounds like dead battery or a bad connection. Did you charge the right battery or
set of batteries.
What voltage do you get when you put a volt meter right to the start batteries?
Start there and report back :)
The batteries are all good full 13.14v on them. Yes right set, not the house batteries
Try activating the BOOST switch - see if that makes any difference when you try to start.
The starting sequence for my coach requires the following items listed below to function properly. I don't know if your coach works the same way. On my coach, if any one of the items listed below were to fail, I would have a NO-CRANK situation. This would be true even if all my batteries were fully charged.
1. Ignition switch
2. Ignition solenoid. Located under the lift-up dash cover.
3. Neutral safety switch (or relay). Sorry - I don't know where this item is located.
4. Aux Start Solenoid. Mounted on the isolator panel.
5. Starter Solenoid (mounted on the starter)
Boost switch doesn't do much, just makes it make different noises.
Im going to check those other things out now.
Link below to a more detailed description of the items needed for a successful engine start:
Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else? (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42645.msg427588#msg427588)
If the batteries are good check the cables and grounds. To see the indicator lights dim to out still sounds like batteries. What was the battery state with the load applied?
Scott
Pull the terminals off the posts and clean both until they are spotless. Always the first place to start troubleshooting.
There also may be a second solenoid for starting. Good to check that after above.
Pierce
Batteries are literally brand new. Had them in the coach for about a month. I disconnect the ground when I leave it so there is no charge being pulled from them while it sits (I just found out that the boost can keep them charged while plugged into shore power). I know that seems like a battery thing but I am 99% sure it is not a battery issue. Im thinking it's a bad ignition solenoid but I am not sure if that would cause the issue at the back starter panel.
If the boost changes the noise, check the cables on the starter and even
the wire going to the solenoid and then keep checking all the way to the
batteries. With a voltmeter go from negative to positive and turn over the
engine. If you have a big voltage drop, it's the batteries. If there is no voltage
drop move you positive lead along the cable until you find the voltage drop
until you get to the solenoid and if no drop do the same with the negative
lead along the ground path. If you still have over 12 volts the problem is
either the solenoid or the starter.
Im going to check out the wires for any issues but the engine does not even crank so no turning it over at this point. No dash lights, barely any clicking other than one single click from solenoid when key is turned to on position.
Back in the day, the old school solution to "No Crank" was to jump across the two large posts on the starter solenoid with a big screw driver blade.
If the engine turns over (tries to start) then you know your start batteries, cables, and starter
motor are good (starter
solenoid may be bad). The problem, in that case, lies elsewhere. Just sayin'
The reason I'm thinking (and hoping) that it is the ignition solenoid is that there is 12v power coming to the dash but when I turn the key on nothing lights up (it did 5 days ago when I ran it). I read somewhere that the ignition solenoid also powers the dash lights and shift panel, since those no longer light up I am thinking the coincidence is worth exploring the solenoid. I bought a new chepo unit off amazon supposedly a replacement for the part number listed on the site. I know it might not last long but I really just wanted to make sure it was the solenoid before I decided to never have this problem again and go buy the Blue Sea 9012.
The link in Reply #6 (above) provided a simple way to verify the function of the Ignition Solenoid. I will repeat it below so you don't have to go to all the trouble of reading my prior post.
4. Ignition solenoid: Located under your lift-up dash cover. Check with multimeter. With ignition key OFF one large post on the ignition solenoid should be HOT, and the other large post should not be HOT. Turn the ignition key to ON and both large posts on the ignition solenoid should be HOT. If not, [either the solenoid is bad, or] the small wire running from the ignition switch to the small post on the ignition solenoid may be broken or loosely connected.
Chuck,
So did the test, got weird results.
With key off HOT on battery side (measured 13.06v), not HOT starter side.
With key on HOT on battery side (ONLY 5.5V?), not HOT starter side.
HMMmmm..... That is unexpected, for sure. I gotta think about that for a bit...
Since you already have another solenoid in hand, you might go ahead and swap them out. See if that helps the situation.
The solenoid should be here today so as soon as I get it im going to install and check it. The voltage drop has me super confused, could a faulty solenoid even do that?
The test result you describe sounds like what would happen if activating the solenoid connected your start battery bank directly to ground ...as in a dead short. Shorting out the battery bank to ground would certainly pull the voltage reading way down. However, it would also cause a BIG spark somewhere. :o I don't see how this could really happen without seeing any voltage reading on the "starter" side of the solenoid where all the downstream circuits are connected.
I don't know...very puzzling.
Unless...perhaps the ignition solenoid itself was shorting directly to ground.
Does your old solenoid have 3 posts or 4 posts? If it has only 3 posts (2 big posts and one small post) what is the solenoid mounted on - a wood (non-conductive) surface or a metal (conductive) surface?
Chuck,
I tried something else maybe this will help the diagnostic.
Same test but this time with the boost switch turned on, results below
Key turned off - Battery side HOT (13v), Starter side not HOT
Key turned on - Battery side HOT (13v), Starter side HOT (13v)
Tired to start it, heard a click and all lights flashed but no start, acted like a dead battery...... is there a chance that the batteries are bad? I mean how could 3 new batteries go bad like that? They are all fully charged, showing 13V.
Doesn't sound like the ignition solenoid. EASY test. Verify that the dash HVAC fan works with ignition on. No need for a voltmeter.
And with voltage dropping that much, almost has to be a bad connection if voltage at the chassis battery doesn't drop with ignition on.
I have a 4 terminal unit
Nothing comes on when key is turned to on position. No lights, no HVAC.
Im checking the voltage at batteries with key on now. EDIT: No change in voltage at chassis batteries when key is turned on. 13.06v key off, 13.06v key on
Then you DO have a bad connection or bad cable. Check cables at the battery end carefully. Green (oxidized copper) does not conduct electricity.
I'm stumped...but I graduated with an English degree (5 decades ago) so I have a excuse. Hopefully some smarter member will come up with a bright idea to help you further test (isolate) the problem.
I am going to get the safety blocks out and crawl under there to check things out. Could this possibly be an issue with the ignition switch/tumbler itself? I know my father installed a new ignition as the one that was on it was the wrong one or something. He replaced it with the correct Chevy one that is shown in the wiring diagrams that came with the coach.
I am still a bit confused as to why the boost switch makes it so there is a full voltage at the solenoid? Would that indicate something like a particular wire to check? Are there different wires that run from the chassis batteries to the ignition then solenoid than the ones that run from the house batteries? Just trying to figure out why I don't see a voltage drop with the boost switch on, if they shared a wire to the ignition then the solenoid wouldn't it act the same in both situations?
Chuck showed how to bypass everything to start the engine in reply 12. Have you
tried that. Those two pictures will tell you a lot.
All the ignition switch does is supply the activating voltage (when you turn the key "ON") to the
small positive terminal on the ignition solenoid. One small terminal is positive (activation) and one is negative (ground). The small posts are interchangeable - doesn't matter which is which.
If the ignition switch is suspect, EASY to check.
Just use a small gauge jumper (not carrying much amps) between the battery lug side of the ignition solenoid and the positive small terminal on the solenoid that comes from the ignition switch. I would remove the wire from that small terminal so you aren't backfeeding anything.
I don't believe it is the ignition switch as you said it tried to start on boost. It won't
start on boost batteries alone.
While you are under there checking, be sure to check the engine end of not only the positive, but also the negative/ground.
All the boost switch does is physically connect the two battery banks together. It merely increases the number of batteries in the "Start" battery bank. All of the current required for starting the coach still flows through the exact same circuits, regardless of how many batteries there are in the "Start" battery bank.
So yes, IMO your ignition solenoid test
should yield the same result with boost switch on and off. The results you report don't make logical sense (to me).
Im checking things out now, testing the ignition as Wolfe suggested. One thing I just noticed was the Overload was flashing on the Heart Inverter Panel above the door? I disconnected the shore power for a minute and then plugged back in. No more blinking.... not sure if that has something to do with this but seems connected?
Wolfe i did your text by jumping the battery side to the smaller solenoid pole.
Voltage measured at 13v on battery side, I jump to the small pole and it drops to 7v, solenoid does not click, just kinda soft buzz from it
Ya, 7 VDC will likely not activate the solenoid.
And if that 7 VDC reading was on the chassis battery lug of the isolator, it still says that even a small draw is dropping the voltage significantly.
Because voltage at the chassis battery is not dropping, that suggests "pathways" between batteries and solenoid and back through the ground circuit.
Okay little update. I unbolted and cleaned the main engine to frame ground connections. This included the cable from the engine to the starter. Ran my test again now I am seeing the voltage drop to 10v instead of 7v. I think im on the right track here. Now all I have to do is find all the connections I need to clean..... I am going to do both positive and negative throughout. Any idea how many connections/cables I am looking at having to sand and reconnect?
EDIT: So now the solenoid clicks a couple times but then the voltage on battery terminal drops to 3.3v......
https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=4746
Okay so I have been waiting for a friend to come over to help with the wire inspection, in the meantime, I did a little more testing and found something odd, maybe enlightening.
If I disconnect the batteries and then reconnect them, then go inside and turn the ignition to the on position everything powers up as it should. When i try to start solenoid clicks over and you get the typical dead battery situation.
Heres where its odd, if I turn the key off and then try to turn it back on, 1 small click from the solenoid and no lights on the dash.
If I then go and disconnect and reconnect the batteries again and then turn the ignition from off to on, lights on the dash and everything comes on and the process restarts. To me this is odd.
That is not odd at all it is an indication of a bad connection.
Okay well then that is one more thing in the direction of bad connection then, thanks
One thing to note is I just went and tried to start the generator, started with no issues. Not sure if that eliminates a certain number of the possible bad connections but I am trying to narrow it down as I cannot get easy access under the coach and there are so many wires to chase down. I am now trying to find where the large red cable that comes from the battery bank to the ignition solenoid is located and where it has connection points.
Try pulling on your cables one at a time and see if they stretch. You may have a broken
cable.
1. Your generator most likely starts off the "Coach" (house) battery bank. It does not use the same "starting" circuits as the big engine.
2. Anything (cable, hose, tubing, wire etc) that runs from the rear of the coach to the front of the coach will be located in the galvanized metal pan found in the center of each storage bay, attached to the ceiling of the bay with sheet metal screws.
3. Look at the electrical schematic I linked in Reply #37.
The most
likely place for problems with any battery cable is at the two ends. Corrosion can work up under the open end of the insulation and weaken the individual strands of wire. In extreme cases the cable can pull completely loose from the crimped end connector. If it becomes necessary, you can buy the tool required to attach new end connectors to a cable.
At the urging of tech guru Roger I invested in the proper tools/materials to build my own battery cables. Have used on several projects. I highly recommend his recommendations. See posts linked below:
Battery Cable Lugs (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37697.msg363595#msg363595)
Delco Remy 28SI Alternator Installation (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40778.msg405080#msg405080)
Well well well, so I went back there and started pulling on the cables. I checked the grounds at the engine, frame, and starter first, tugged a little no noticeable stretch. Went to the front and gave it a try... the same thing. Then I went out to the batteries and gave those ones a couple of tugs, no noticeable stretch to them. Went back in to check..... fired right up!!!! Of course, I am relieved but now I am wondering what the heck is going on and what is the best approach to fix this before my maiden voyage?
I think that is where I am going to start. I will look at those links you sent and see if it's something I want to invest in the tools for or if it's something I will have done by...... an electrician?
You need to cut back the jacket until you are able to expose the cable that is clean, shiny copper. If it will still reach the battery/end, swedge on a new terminal.
Plan "B" is to cut it back to good copper and use an isolator lug/terminal and use a new short cable to replace the bad section.
Plan "XXXXXXXXXXXXXX" would be to replace the whole bad cable. EXTREMELY unlikely that this will be needed.
So I imagine you have a bad connection at one of the terminals and pulling on
them tighten the connection. It's really hard to find a problem when it's working.
I would push and pull at the connections and maybe you will feel something loose.
If you find a bad cable, you have 2 choices:
1. If you can remove the cable from the coach, you can take it to electrical shop and have new end connectors swaged on, OR just have them build a new cable.
2. If you cannot remove the cable, then it must be repaired in place, either by you or by calling a electrician to come to your location. Service calls are expensive. You will have to weigh the expense of a service call against the expense of buying what is necessary to do the job yourself.
Except in a emergency situation, I would not recommend using any kind of bolt-on or clamp type cable repair connectors. There are connectors that use a compression nut to tighten the lug to the cable. I have no experience with that type connector. See the description in the catalog linked below:
https://www.powerandsignal.com/Images/PDFs/Catalog_Full_Line__English_Connectors.pdf
Good job narrowing things down and finding the issue! I say you remove/clean/check each connection one at a time and see what you find.
So I narrowed it down to the cable that runs from the negative 3-way manifold on the batteries up to the engine grounding point. Thinking I will have an electrician friend either fix the ends or fabricate a whole new one. Luckily the ground side has the shorter and more easily removed cables, the positives run-up to the larger fuse box that is in the main storage bay through some bulkheads and all that. ^.^d
Thank you all for the assistance with this issue!!
I made up an extra ground from the battery to a close point on the frame. Just about 2 feet on ours.
Pierce
Just a footnote for those who read this later or find themselves in need of cables....
If you live near the coast or boating areas, many Marine/Boating supply stores will carry cables and lugs of various gauges, you can buy your required lengths and have them swage ends on in store for you.
(West Marine, Blackburn Marine etc.)
Bad ground.
All volts will have to use the same ground path .