This was posted on the Bus Conversions Board a few hours ago:
My wife's good friend needs help in Miami. She owns a Foretravel U320. I know it is not a "real" bus, but it has a 450 Cummins that won't start. RV guys replaced both A/C units and the neighbor had to turn on the inverter etc to get it powered back up electrically, but it won't turn over at. It has 70K miles on it and she has it sold.....if it will start. It ran great before the RV guys worked on it. Battery and starter (which is a year old) supposedly check out fine. She has only been able to get one mobile repair guy willing to come "LOOK" at it for $1600 dollars. (what a nice guy...).
Any south Fla bus nuts know who she can call? Probably an ignition switch or something way too simple to have her pay a 1600 dollar ransom. Perhaps a breaker the AC guys shut off and forgot. Dashboard lights up and there is a "click" but won't turn over. It is plugged into 50 amp. She has money and will pay to get it going if anyone can think of a guy that doesn't need 1600 to wander by...
I already suggested she get on this board and ask for help but that takes time she may not have. If anyone can suggest a reliable mechanic in that area I will be glad to cross post it.
TOM
If dashboard lights up (along with Allison shift pad and dash HVAC fan) then the ignition switch and ignition solenoid are probably good.
Assume chassis battery voltage has been checked when key turned to start position.
Any difference when BOOST SWITCH is turned on to add house batteries to chassis batteries?
Any Contact information for her ? I am on the west coast of Florida, however being retired I could make a road trip to assist her.
I am about 2 hours away, but I do have a grand daughter that lives in Miami that I could go visit while I am there... ^.^d
This is what makes this board (and a few others) so great! I got a response in 11 minutes!!!!! You can't even get through the phone tree to a lot of shops in that time!!!
Brett, I can't answer that. I'm guessing trying to trouble shoot this through 2 boards and 4 people will be difficult. I'm going to try to get some contact info.
Gerry, thanks for the offer! I will try to get so contact info and get back to you.
TOM
OldManSax wrote for someone else:
"RV guys replaced both A/C units and the neighbor had to turn on the inverter etc to get it powered back up electrically, but it won't turn over at."
"It is plugged into 50 amp. She has money and will pay to get it going if anyone can think of a guy that doesn't need 1600 to wander by..."
Gerry Vicha wrote "I am about 2 hours away, but I do have a grand daughter that lives in Miami that I could go visit while I am there..."
Sounds like a good plan for a road trip.
It's the batteries. It's always the batteries. And the interlocks. And a lack of knowledge.
I say fire up the generator as soon as you arrive, Gerry.
OldManSax wrote "This is what makes this board (and a few others) so great! I got a response in 11 minutes!!!!!"
Retirees home from the early bird breakfast buffet?
Had a similar problem with our old 1989 so who knows.
I tried to start our coach and the gear selector was NOT in neutral. Wouldn't turn over or start.
Maybe?
I sent Gerry the contact info. Now we wait............ :D :D
TOM
If only it were this simple. This is a U320 with a push button transmission. Unlike a '50s-60s Chrylser product this push button shift has computers. Hence my battery comment. Low battery voltage gives all kinds of grief to solid state electronics.
Phone number did not work.......... Gerry
We are in miami, FL
786. 457 9893
Frank
I sent Gerry's number to the contact (Ted). Ted's number shows up wrong in my phone. I have no idea why. And neither does he. And it still shows up wrong in my phone. It's been a strange day!
Frank, you are the backup if Gerry can't go or needs help. You guys can coordinate. Too many cooks spoil the soup. LOL!
Thanks to all for the help!
TOM
Tom,
So, who has put their digital voltmeter on the start batteries while cranking?
Same for when boost switch is activated?
Hate to see one of our members drive 400 miles round trip for something REALLY SIMPLE.
FYI
I will be meeting up at the coach tomorrow at 0800 Miami time.
I will be posting on the forum as to what the symptoms are and hopefully I can get help from the more experienced to get the coach started.
Frank,
Make sure you post the year model as what a '97 may need could be different than a '03.
Mike
I'm being told it's an 02 U320
40'
It's a small world.
Looked on google maps.
I went to see this coach with a friend who was looking for a coach about 2 years ago.
Daisy and I had our coach already.
That's great! I don't have anything at stake on this but I am curious like everyone else.
Brett, I really don't know anything about the situation except what was in the original post. I just happened to see it on the bus board and thought the coach owner may not even know about the Foretravel board. I posted it over here hoping that someone could help, and it appears that is what happened. It's nice when something works out. I just tried to do a good deed. I hope my wife is never in that position but, if she is, maybe someone would help her.
TOM
Good morning
Here at the coach
Batts at 12.84
No start
Disconnected batteries all batteries individually are reading 12.9 v
So far, so good. The batteries are not the problem.
FWIW, here is my "Starting Sequence" checklist. If I was in a no crank situation, this is what I would look at. Some items may be different on a '02 U320.
Starting trouble. Solenoid? Isolator? Something else? (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42645.msg427588#msg427588)
The second photo shows a burned/overheated cable end. Looks like the positive cable going to starter.
Loose connections? Dirty connections? Too much resistance at the starter end? Bad ground cable at starter? Locked up starter motor?
Didn't like The way that cable looked either the positive one but I do have 12 V at the positive post that it attaches to on the frame
I have attached these two other photos because I am trying to locate the 90 amp circuit breaker.
If you see them in the picture let me know
When you say not starting, are you saying when key is turned nothing happens at all. No click no nothing? What happens when trying with boost switch?
Have you tried turning the key on and pressing the start button in the back by the engine?
1. take the cables loose at that post and check the connection at the cable ends. I have seen that junction post fail and cause a non start.
2. In the 1st pic if you look at the breaker tags you see one for the A/H. I can't see the one above that but the 90 amp breaker is just to the right of that. It appears to be set not tripped. It has the RED button on the side.
Mike
Frank,
Just some random thoughts for things to look at.
On this coach it should have 2 solid state ignition solenoids in the dash (like your coach will have) rather than the old single set up. Look for 2 black square boxes hid behind the kick panel. Those rarely fail but you might try swapping one out for the other. The starter could be stuck due to setting for a long time and the moisture in the air. If the starter is stuck that could be what overheated that cable.
Mike
Still dead in the water, only clicking after changing that cable
What is voltage while attempting to crank-- check at chassis batteries and also at starter?
Boost switch change anything?
Here is the pic again
Breaker next to aqua hot is 120
Here are also a couple of pics for the positive post that the batteries are connected to
Brett
Battery voltage at 12.3 when attempting to crank
Mike I'm looking behind the dash kick panel can you be a little bit more specific as to what I am looking for
Brett when we hit the ignition power at the starter is almost 0
They should be hanging down right at the floor level next to the breaker panel. Should be 2 black boxes about 2" square and 1" thick. they generally are on the left hand side. I don't have a pic. of what you are looking for.
Mike
Mike I have almost 0 V at the starter when the ignition is turned on
Before the ignition is turned I have my 12 V but I lose it when the ignition is turned on
Did you load test the batteries separately when you had them unhooked? Sure sounds like a possible bad battery or 2. Where you have voltage but not amps..
Mike
Mike all batteries were disconnected and checked individually and came in at about 12.8 each
I checked the voltage on the starter as directed by Brett I had 12.8 V or a little higher and when the ignition was turned on it dropped to zero
Again, boost switch (adding house battery bank) does what to voltage readings?
Mike are these the two black boxes in the kick panel that you're talking about
Brett with the boost switch on and the ignition in the off position I have 12 V at the starter
when we go to turn on the coach it drops down to zero
Yep
But with these symptoms of loss of voltage those are most likely not the problem.
Mike
Those readings (voltage at the starter drops close to zero when starter engaged but voltage at the chassis batteries only drops a little-- 12.3 VDC) suggest either there is a cabling issue OR the starter is frozen. Be sure to check the negative at both engine and battery end.
BTW, if it is a frozen starter and it is able to take voltage down that dramatically, it will get VERY hot VERY quickly. May help with diagnosis.
I feel the part of the starter just below the solenoid "warm" compared to the rest of it
Can you put a socket on the crank bolt to see if the engine turns.
If the starter is locked up the new battery cable that was just installed will also get hot...especially at the end connections.
I think Brett and others are correct. I know for a fact the voltage should not drop to 0 when you try to crank. I have have starters short out before and rarely will they drag the voltage to 0. Even with a severe internal short you would still read 1-3 volts on the meter. And as others have said, the cables and where ever the short is will get REAL hot REAL quick. I think once you figure out where you're losing voltage, you will find the problem.
If you have a heavy set of jumpers, you can try jumping from the batteries directly to the positive starter lug. The key does not have to be on to run this test. If the engine starts cranking, the starter is good and the problem is in the cables or solenoid. If you get a heavy spark and no crank at all, the starter has failed. If you get a light spark and the starter tries but turns slowly or just bumps over, you probably have a 1 or more failed connecting cables (between the batteries) or 1 or more batteries failing under load. You do need heavy jumpers to run this test and good connection to the batteries.
TOM
As far as I can tell (from reading above), this test has not yet been done. If it starts looking more like a bad battery, then this is the gold standard test.
Requires all start batteries being disconnected from each other, AND a heavy duty load tester. Each battery must be tested individually. If a tester is not available on site, then you'll need to cart the batteries to a battery shop or auto parts emporium where they have a suitable load tester. See below for example:
https://www.harborfreight.com/500-amp-carbon-pile-load-tester-91129.html?_br_psugg_q=load+tester
Tom beat me to the keyboard, and I can only add that if the engine is locked up, there is a very good chance that the starter cable will visibly jump when the starter solenoid closes. But that is unlikely, and having the transmission in two gears at the same time doesn't matter because of the torque converter. More likely is a bad starter BUT all of the cable connections must be checked including jumping over the starter solenoid.
FWIW my most recent experience with a bad starter solenoid was with the Studebaker and was confirmed with a jumper cable.
FWIW II 35 or so years ago when we were dating I saw the jumping battery cable on Lynn's '64 Valiant convertible. It turned out to be a broken detent in the four-speed transmission, so I had Lynn bring the parts to where I worked at the end of the day and I made a new set of unobtanium* detents.
*I keep a small stock of this rare metal.
I have noticed a lot of old guys, including me, and most of the smart young guys, horde as much of that metal as they can afford. ;D
TOM
At home now.
First, I was taking the voltage readings incorrectly on the starter. In the end I was getting 12 V at the starter on the large terminal and once the ignition was turned on I was getting 12 V on the smaller wire. Hope i'm explaining myself clearly.
We were hearing clicking at the starter but nothing else was happening.
I put a meter to each battery individually but did not load test the batteries.
Unfortunately I had to leave at 1 o'clock because of other commitments this afternoon.
Thanks to everyone that chimed in and tried to help me.
I did learn from this experience.
Frank
Frank,
Do you recall what voltage between the large lug on the starter and good ground did when key turned to start/tried to start from the back?
BTW, thanks for you assistance in helping a fellow Foretravel owner.
That is what the Foreforum is all about.
Brett
I think it was about 12 v maybe dropped to 11.8
Two tens of a voltage drop when trying to start it is not much. It could be dirty
contacts in the solenoid or a bad starter. In an 8.3 Cummins I had the starter lock
up and I had to turn the engine backwards with a wrench to break the starter loose.
When it freed up it started, but it locked up a few more times until I pulled the
starter and change the bendix. I don't think this is a locked starter as there would
be at least 4 volts voltage drop and probably more.
Frank,
Do you have any updates?
Mike
Hi Mike,
Lindon is going to try the 4lb hammer.
He also said that Gerry found a mechanic and they are supposed to be coming on Monday.
and now, The rest of the store..... Monday November 22, I picked up my friend Shorty, (the mechanic) and headed over to Miami. It took longer than I expected about a 3 hour trip. Got there around 10 am, Shorty climbed under the coach with a test light and had me try to start the coach, No Go, Shorty "Starter is Bad" he immediately removed the old starter, took about 7 minutes and off we went to Truck Pro for a New (not rebuilt) Starter. Trip to Truck Pro and back took about 1 1/2 hours. Back at the coach, Shorty slides under the rear with the new starter in tow and not 10 minutes later he's holloring "Start the Coach". Turned the key and wala motor purrs like a Kitten, (except that it's a Cummins). 3 hours there, 2 hours to troubleshoot the problem, get parts, and replace starter, 3 hours back home. Done deal........ ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d and, Thanks to Frank (Lt403), for all of the great pictures and troubleshooting. I am sure it speeded up the final evaluation that resulted in the new starter.....
Great job Gerry
Thank you Gerry.
This is what makes the ForeForum what it is-- ITS MEMBERS.
A big thanks to all that pulled this off and helped a lady in need. This is the Forum at it's best. Now hope the sale goes through and she can go on with her next phase of life.
Pamela & Mike
Gerry, Shorty and you as well Frank. Proud of you boys.
Every once in a while, you just gotta help someone for no good reason at all except that it's the right thing to do.
Robert Heinlein cast a gimlet eye on the subject in the voice of Lazarus Long aka The Elder.
"If tempted by something that feels "altruistic," examine your motives and root out that self-deception. Then, if you still want to do it, wallow in it!"
― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
Nice to see guys, nice to see.
I didn't do anything except post on this forum so that you guys could fix the problem. As I said before, I would hope others would do the same should my or some one else's wife have problems. Thanks to all involved!
TOM