I see lots of talk about the 50 plus HP that the solid metal fans consume . Has anyone changed to 4 electric fans? Sounds like at least a .5 MPG and most speed per pedal angle.
Lots of CFMs and juice to run them needed so a second alternator is my plan. I would like to put four fans plus an extra radiator up front on our GV. No room on the bus types. Fans are cheap to experiment with at Pick N Pull. So, a second alternator for engine and fans, the primary alternator for the house batteries with a high amp Blue Seas rotary switch to tie them together if needed in case of an alternator failure.
As it is now, if you have a hydraulic failure, pump or motor(s), you are dead in the water. The electric fans would get you down the road to work on it at your leisure as a secondary purpose. The four fans could be tried to see how effective they are in summer weather.
Several other manufactures use electric fans instead of the very poor hydraulic arrangement used on our coaches. I did see an air cooled diesel German tour bus with a single large fan above the flat engine. It was idling and the fan was off. Rear axle pivoted to leave parking spaces also.
If our fans do use 50 or 60 hp, I expect the MPG gain would be at least the half mpg. Our 350hp Detroit has less than that at the wheels so with the fans in high, the hp loss would seem to be a substantial percent of the total. The rear radiator coaches with the direct drive fans must get better mileage.
At the Sacramento Pick-N-Pull, the electric radiator fans from any truck or car are $37 for the pair so $75 for the total is pretty cheap. Any truck alternator is also a bargain at $28.
Pierce
I've given thought to electric fans. I've always heard 50 hp to run the fan on diesel rigs I don't know that to be a fact but I do know when a Horton air operated clutch fan defaults to on continuous I can feel the loss of power on a 430 hp engine and have put a pencil to the fuel mileage loss at .5 mpg with all other conditions similar if not the same. I would like a Air clutch fan on the coach but it would be pricey to install BUT may be worth it. Not to get away from mikes original point of trying electric fans which would be cheaper and easier to install. Mentioned Horton air/ clutch because that's where my experience has been.
If the controllers work on the fans the 50 HP loss would not be continuous just when on high.
Prevost uses electric fans.
ELECTRIFYING THE FUTURE AT PREVOST | Prevost (https://www.prevostcar.com/news-and-media/media-center/news/electrifying-future-prevost)
We have these electric fans on the bumper side of the radiator PLUS a nylon fan on the engine water pump on our '89 DD turbo charged 8.2 V8.
MPG towing our 2006 AWD Saturn Vue averages 8-9
Often wondered if removing the nylon fan would make a difference.
Quite right but we are marginal in summer plus it's all mountains where we live so the fans are at high speed much of the year. We probably do save a bit on the downgrade parts.
Pierce
My post was referring to class 8 trucks with bigger radiators and much bigger fans. Principal is the same but add another 45 to 50 thousand lbs and the mpg decrease may be less in GV or Uni coach. Still the drag is there and I would much rather see all the horsepower being used to move the coach instead of a portion of it going toward pulling the fan.
Our first coach, a 83 Bluebird FC 35 with Cat 3208 (front radiator), the previous owner removed the factory fan and put in 2 electric fans that covered 90% of the radiator. It ran hot way too often.
Well I hope that this one works better. I have 4 -14 in fans coming along with 2 controllers . I will stage the fans and use a high mounted switch for the first set and a lower mounted switch for the second set.
I wont throw out the solid , direct drive metal fan .
Sounds great, just put in a couple of electric fans and be good to go, but to move the same amount of air it will take the same HP. No free ride. When you need full fans the electric will never come close, yet. If they would manufactures would be using. Currently I have my hydraulic fans at almost idle during normal use and will ramp up to 100% when required. Fans also ramp up during braking and retarder use and for inlet air temperature as needed at 150 degrees IAT. Your not going to deleat the power steering pump so just maintain it and use. Eventually they may have powerful enough fans but currently I can't afford.
Scott
I have a rear radiator and direct drive fan . Full on all the time. The fans that I will try are rated 2200CFM at 9 amps each. Wired to my extra alternator and coach batts.
I may run one all of the time , , the next 2 on a thermo switch and the last one on another thermo switch.
This has worked in the past on many cars but as you say, it takes some power from somewhere. Ijust see no reason to use 50HP when cruising in the cool evening air. I picked up over .5MPG on my old chevy van while towing . This should be similar or more . Hard to say at this point.
I find it hard to believe that with all of us car peeps and racers on here, that no one else has done it .
So I used to have a 1995 Chevy suburban with a 6.5 diesel. As I recall a 32hp fan. A proper fan clutch was so important to the fuel economy and cooling. Bad fan clutch would slurp fuel or run hot. A good one made it work right. Played with the thermostat and was amazed at the difference in air flow a little tweak would make.
Good stuff. Bronco with LS conversion will have twin 18 inch fans drawing 20 amps each. Dual alternators too
But the hydraulic system IS going for a free ride taking power both at the pump and then two motors. The efficiency is a lot less than a direct fan drive and less than an alternator/electric fan combination. Plus, if the hydraulic system fails, you can be stuck somewhere for a lengthy time. We were dead in the water when one of our hydraulic hoses let go. Even with one electric fan failure, the coach can be driven.
Pierce
But if the hydraulic system failed your still stuck no steering. DWMYH
Scott
If anywhere near 50hp is required to cool the engine under full load........ even 30hp......... it would take some very large 12v motors to make this much HP. Not to mention the size of the alternators to produce that much amperage. No free ride, power is power, yes efficiency comes into play, but is it enough to justify the cost?
The Prevost electric fans sound like a good idea, but look very costly and complex. I'll keep my hydraulic setup, its worked flawless for over 25 years and when it fails, I'll get it fixed and hope for another 15 or 20 years of service.
To each his own and "do what makes you happy" I welcome and encourage the different ideas and hope that they work for those who put forth the effort and expense to try them. In my opinion, Foretravel developed a cooling system that has worked for many years on our coach and I cant fault them for that. If it fails tomorrow, I'll complain about the money it will cost to repair it but that is what I'll do. Heck..... I may give out before the original pump and motors do. ::)
One HP is 746 watts at 100% efficiencies. So 50 hp would be 37300 watts at 13.8 volts equals 2702 amp draw. My math is not 100% correct but close enough for me to see electric fans won't work. I also really like hydraulic winches and there is always someone saying they won't work with a stalled engine, yep there right. Always cracks me up.
I added a second radiator to my rear radiator coach that has a 6V92. The coolant that exits the drivers side of the engine flows to the side radiator and the coolant from the other head goes to the rear radiator. I use six 12 inch fans with the highest air flow I could find at the time (2007). They pull about 80 amps and my testing back then showed the (smaller) side radiator cooled better than the rear radiator. The rear radiator is fed warmer air as it flows over the engine first. I also think the rear radiator fan is starved for air; there just isn't much room around a V configured engine. The electric fans for the new side radiator have a custom shroud which is critical so the whole radiator surface has air drawn across it.
The fans are wired to the house battery and I removed my battery isolator so the alternator only feeds the start batteries. When I climb grades (and the fans are on) I make sure the boost switch is off so the fans don't load the alternator and engine. On the downhill I switch the boost switch on to recharge the house batteries and (theoretically) help slow the coach.
I have always thought if I have any issues with the rear radiator, I will toss it and add a second side radiator to the other side. I think I would need a second alternator (or a bigger one). Maybe put it where the engine driven fan is now.
I have heard the 50 hp number get tossed around and I personally think it's an exaggeration.
Scott,
No, it`s a U300 with a PS pump at the forward end of the Detroit and it's own fluid supply. ^.^d ^.^d ^.^d Water pump is internally driven. Normally, Detroit's alternators are 300 amp, sealed, brushless, oil cooled and gear driven so the engine has zero belts. My old Buffalo's fan was a direct drive with the A.C. run off a PTO.
Detroits also come with silicone lifetime hoses.
Pierce
30 hp for solid fans on car engines are dyno numbers . Replacing the engine fans with electric is the norm for all new cars and many trucks.
The relevant number required is not the hp but the CFM value .
Also when the CFM is needed. . The mechanical fan draws all of the time. The electric fans will draw when the thermo switches ask for cooling .
Of course there are amps required to run 4- 9 amp fans .
Really nice and neat job you did. +++
I think the loss including the hydraulic system is between 50 and 60 hp. Those are two huge fans on ours.
With the stock muffler removed and a resonator installed, there is plenty of room on the driver's side for a radiator installation.
But, lots of room in the nose on a GV plus ram air eliminates the need for a fan unless in traffic.
Pierce
The electric fan has been tried by someone at least once on many of the RV and heavy truck forums I belong to. Most were dismal failures. Some were marginally successful depending on the definition of "success". Since it is impossible to say that I saw every post on every attempt, I will not presume there were no complete successes. All of that said, a few things stick out.
The technology is ever changing. What didn't work yesterday may be feasible today.
Newer vehicles are being designed to use electric cooling from the ground up and will therefore have better results.
Front radiator vehicles are vastly better candidates for electric conversion.
4 stroke, lower heat rejection engines are better candidates than 2 stroke, high heat rejection engines. Think the S60 vs the 8V92.
Vehicles with flexibility on radiator size and configuration fair better that those with no options; ie, better results are obtained if a copper finned radiator can be replaced with a larger aluminum one.
Vehicles used in on the East Coast and The Plains will have better results than those used in the Rockies.
There are other considerations but these are easily observable from the post I have read.
Personally, I don't have the time to fool with this particular innovation so will continue to use and fix the OEM system.
TOM
Do you have links ?
With diesel exceeding $5/gal in some places, any way to bring the cost down is welcome. A fuel card, reducing the fan loss, "Smart Way" verified tires and keeping the coach speed down are ways of helping a little.
The addition of a couple of electric fans is going to make the coach able to be driven at lower speed in case of hydraulic failure. Newer technology will have to include increased electrical output as trying to retrofit fans with our single alternator is not going to be effective. The failure of some to implement electrical fans successfully may be the failure to consider all the components necessary to build a alternative cooling system.
As far as Foretravels go, both the 2 cycles and 4 cycles have encountered cooling problems. I remember some small 5.9 Cummins owners installing front radiators to supplement cooling.
But the biggest failure of RVs today is not utilizing the front of the coach for ram air. This does not have to be ugly as VW Vanagons have done this forever and rear engine Porsche models do this today without sacrificing any aesthetics.
Even the European and Mexican buses have managed to drive their cooling fans without resorting to the clumsy and inefficient hydraulic system that RV pusher manufacturers have defaulted to.
Pierce
Pierce, something weird here (besides me) because I never know when our two big electric fans on our rear radiator are on. I go back there to disconnect our towed and both fans are running but nothing shows on the gauges.
Has Rocket been pushing switches again???
For some reason he was trying to prevent me from typing that post.
Wouldn't the redirection of air flow be the better solution.
While side mounts make for better engine access than rear mounted. Both designs are lacking in taking advantage of forward motion air flow. But of course redirecting that air flow is much more involved and problematic.
Rear mounted blows hot air into the radiator. My brother couldn't keep his HR with the C-7 from overheating on the Sherman grade north of Bishop. Sold it and bought a side radiator Monaco no overheating issue.
No but these are the forums that have had the most extensive discussions:
BCM Community - Index (https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php)
BNO BBS - BNO's Bulletin Board System - Index (http://www.busnut.com/forum/)
Wanderlodge Owners Group - Powered by vBulletin (https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/index.php)
Just do a search for electric fans. You may have to join one or more to read the posts. All of them used to be open to everybody but hackers fixed that.
Additional electric fan info: The generators on Wanderlodges originally had massive 240V squirrel cage cooling fans. People have been very successful at replacing them with 12V Tstat operated automotive type fans.
TOM
What is the cfm of the fans we have on our coaches (1999--320 / 450 cummins) and what is needed in hot weather to keep everything cooled properly?
Chris
Hawk. Do you mean no changes on the amp meter gage ?
Perhaps they are on a direct battery connection, bypassing the ammeter. A voltmeter will tell the tale as it will drop when the fans are on. If the fans are on when you check the toad, they should eventually go off as the engine temp goes down.
Pierce
Well, ain't gonna know 'til spring when we bring the coach home.
GEAR DOWN, Even though most think that lugging along at low revs is what a diesel is about. Well it isn't. So many look at the diesel engines RPM through the experience of their family cars petrol engine. The M11 operates at around 1400 RPM at 62 MPH and folks see this as a very low RPM. It isn't. Our M11's are limited to around 2000 RPM so 1400-1700 RPM is more than two thirds of the max allowed RPM. So do not let your M11 lug up a hill at 1100RPM in econ mode set on 6 and max psi turbo boost. This will have your engine hotter than a branding iron. So slow down and push that down arrow and keep the revs at 1600-1700 and keep your foot from pushing the go pedal to the floor.
So driving your gas powered car like a diesel would have you at 4,000 RPM if it has a 6,500 RPM redline.
The M11 is governed at 2100. Last summer I was driving up a grade and I noticed
the engine temperature was at 200 degrees, shifted down one gear and the temperature
dropped back down quickly and the fans were still on slow speed.
So this was for a 10k cfm fans that is rated for 450 HP and it is drawing 70 amps at 12v dc. Don't know if you would need 2.
Turbine Electric Fans for Over-the-Road Trucks and Tractors (http://www.electricfanengineering.com/turbine-electric-fans/over-the-road-truck-tractor/)
The link to the fans shows a front engine requirement for the number of fans. The side radiator is going to need more. The intercooler is also not considered.
Pierce
Doing some poking around as I gather parts. 20-25% of my Radiator face directly at the bumper.
My 4 14 in fans showed up and waiting on the controllers for them, as well as some customer stuff to go away.
Just ran across this video and thought I'd share on this thread. This guy replaced his stock fan with 2005-2007 Chevy Suburban fans. A quick search shows each 2-fan setup is rated for about 10k CFM, so this setup is about 20k CFM.
http://youtu.be/w2osb-GaKgM
Yes, a very good coverage of the conversion.
But (OK large BUT) much of the "heat rejection" needed depends on engine size and HP. We already have folks on this thread with HP ranging from 225 to 450. Very different requirements.
Also, even if coolant temperature is 50* F, you still need some air flow through the CAC to keep intake manifold temperatures in the proper range.
It absolutely CAN be done, but will also include an alternator upgrade/addition and some careful engineering.
Just a note for those contemplating doing an electric fan installation.
Years ago a friend was having grief from his stock car overheating. He called me over and explained he had tried 4, 6, & 8 bladed fans and a shroud and the engine still overheated.
I took one look and told him I work cheap but not free, so he would have to get a six pack of Pabst and we would drink three bottles apiece and then I would tell him what was wrong with his setup.
After imbibing I showed him what was wrong, by opening the hood on my 1957 Chev convertible with the 301 engine.
Problem? His fan blades were almost touching the radiator. Cavitation, oh boy! We took out the spacer between the fan and the mounting flange on the water pump and he ended up running the rest of the stock car season at Rockford Speedway without overheating.
So, if contemplating an electric fan conversion, either side or rear radiator, determine optimum spacing between the fan and the radiator for the air flow.
When the fan is any distance away from the radiator a shroud is needed to get optimum cooling.
This guy says his Cat 3126B is 330HP.n Apparently he just finished the install and will make another video after his first trip, which is soon. Just something for those interested, to be aware of.
Yes, link to current discussion: Electric Cooling Fan Conversion - 2000 Endeavor DP - Page 3 - iRV2 Forums (http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/electric-cooling-fan-conversion-2000-endeavor-dp-557437-3.html)
Looks like he likes it and it cools fine when set up correctly. His fuel consumption has dropped more than I expect mine to .
He's using some sort of variable fan power supply . My controllers are on /off. I have 2 sets of 2 fans set to different temps. I hope to get everything installed next week .
The fans mount right up tight to the radiator , just like a car.
Looking forward to his report after running in summer temperatures on grades.
Doesn't take nearly as much cooling in cold temperatures.
I run in Florida . Any issues will be readily apparent . :)
Constants | Gas | Diesel
SFC: .50 lb. per HP | .40 lb. per HP
FSW: 6.1 lb. per gal. | 7.2 lb per gal.
Calculating Boat Fuel Consumption | Boating Mag (https://www.boatingmag.com/calculating-fuel-consumption/#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20an%20in%2Dtune,unit%20of%20horsepower%20it%20produces).
Quick math is about 1.6 gal per hr. at 30HP .
Found some data . On demand cooling should save quite a bit of fuel . Running the metal direct drive fan 100% of the time cost fuel.
Running the electric fans only when needed might be optimal. I fully understand that full power cooling load will still require the same power .
I hope to get the fans mounted by the end of the week.
Interesting idea. I talked to another Foretraveler earlier this week about replacing the hydraulic fans with electric ones. I'm assuming that Foretravel checked into that idea when they were designing the coaches and decided that the hydraulic route was the better one.
Engineering wise , hydraulic powered fans may have been more durable or cheaper than electric. The high flow brushless fans were very expensive in 1993. It's likely that the continuous duty rating was under the design parameters.
The whole engineering concept was bogus. Just copy the Euro and Mex buses with their simple fan arrangements. No need for hydraulics. GM had it right with their sidewinder for many years. And with your '88 GV, incredible that the nose of the coach was ignored. Hope your pioneer efforts work well. Will be in your corner.
Pierce
I've found shrouding to be very helpful on pulling air, as in the air is coming through the radiator and then through the fans or not at all.
I'm Old and slow and the shop has been busy..
Update . fans are installed .
Autozone has a 40 amp relays that should replace all of ther HELLA style 4 post relays around our bus.
part # RL44. about 6 $ .
I have 2 running the fans, triggered by the fan switches.
How about a report on how they work cooling the coach? Side or rear radiator?
Pierce
The "high flow brushless fan" motor was doable in 1993. It was the electronics to make the damn thing run that was expensive. Back then variable frequency drive on board development was a career choice.
Now there is a huge range of choice in fan drives, would be pretty straightforward to build an Arduino or similar control with temp inputs from multiple points (water, cac, retarder oil etc.) to control dc fan drives. Could be as simple as controlling four relays for four fans, or elaborate as variable speed drives. Figuring out temp curves and appropriate responses are the detail devils.
Really looking forward to seeing how the electric fan setup performs in general, we're all cheering for ya!
And it's not that hard to go commercial. When I want to automate something I either go to automationdirect.com or if it's a big project order their catalog, because like, I'm old and set in my ways, and I like turning pages and using paper bookmarks.
At this point , I am comparing airflow of the stock fan to the electric's
It's amazing how the engine door restricts the air exit . Also the fans show more reversion than I like .
Today I will make the door pass air easier , add a shroud to the shrouds.
Recheck air flow of each system .
I am committed to making this work after looking at others success with regards to fuel use and applied power .
Bottom pic is starting to round the corners on the door.
Thanks. I like the simple way , most of the time . This uses 2 separate systems. Each having a temp sender like this. Auto zone fan temp sensor - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=Auto+zone+fan+temp+sensor&sxsrf=APq-WBufQG7fw6ym-z11cZWT_Ikc21G9gg:1648925080937&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinkNfNhPb2AhW6kWoFHagRARAQ1TV6BQgBEOIC&biw=1366&bih=625&dpr=1#spd=13475582118049939201)
These run a 40 amp relay , that run each fan set . Both sets are wired to the coach batteries' circuit and the feed is from my extra Delco one wire alternator post . Each fan set has it's own 50 amp breaker and 40 amp relay. I get very little fan speed increase when adding power wires or grounds . So the wire size /amp potential appears sufficient
Both fans run regardless of the engine running . The only trigger is temp .
At this point I have the single right side fan set at about 130* This should run almost all of the time and cool the bedroom and evacuate some air from the engine compartment.
The two fan set, left side, will be set to come on at 188- 195 ish. This is a few drees warmer than the running temp as is is now. Down the road reads a hair under 180 on my dash gauge . A tiny bit warmer may burn the fuel a touch better. may not. Science says that it will make more torque a bit warmer.
The fans need to be off the radiator with shrouds that includes the complete radiator assy. What you are doing may work a little bit but it won't work a lot.
Right . It may need little flaps to shut off the reverse flow , like some cars use. The flow is best with the fans up tight at this point. I have to roll it down th e road some more and video the air tell tales.
Photo Sharing. Your Photos Look Better Here. (https://www.chrisgreenphoto.com/Events/SCCA-CFR-Turkey-Trot-2017-Sebring/i-skgK674/A)
Like my Race truck . The tell tale behind the cab, above the radiator showing flow from the door scoop through the radiator and up under the wing.
If there is some vacuum behind the radiator , it should work.
When we replaced our electronic fan controller with a wax valve, the fans were set to spin up to full speed at 180 degrees, but were idle until then. This was fine for coolant temperature, but when starting up (especially on hot days or when we hit highway speeds right away), it would allow the intake manifold temperature to get too high and throw a warning code. The solution was to add a needle valve to allow the fans to spin at low speed until coolant hit the 180 mark. Haven't had a problem since and intake manifold temperature now stays just a few degrees above ambient air temperature.
Your right fan may be enough to keep things cool enough that intake manifold temperature isn't an issue for you. But, if it is, might need to spin up one of the left fans at a little lower temperature if you seen the intake manifold temperature getting above 110 or 120 degrees.
It sure seems like a full shroud across the outflow side of the radiator would increase efficiency. Wouldn't that put the whole radiator area into play with less inlet restriction than having individual fans cooling four circular sections of the rad? Or would that cause fans to poach suction from each other?
Just a thought, and I recognize that fluid dynamics are not necessarily intutive.
Each fan should have its own separated shroud otherwise the fan next to it that is not running with be a lower draw pressure and recirculate uncooled air. Ive seen were they install rubber sheet check flapper valve to prevent that recirculating. Each shroud can have its own individual piece of real estate too draw air threw. Again no free ride
Scott
This is where variable speed fans would come into play. One large shroud covering complete radiator, for 100% of the radiator fin area is used, with all 3 or xx fans running but at a low speed unless higher speed is needed where they all ramp up. I think that setup would be more efficient in total.
Some notes. The Ted's Garage guy is my twin .. Same cars, bikes and bus thoughts.
It appears that I need more CFM . I ordered a set of the Chevy fans. each is about 8K CFM .
My 14 in fans will go under the chev fans . They will come on first and move some air most of the time.
Next, the door slows down the air a lot . I will finish thinning the slats today .
The return on Investment(ROI) is large. At about 50$ per 1000, miles at 1 MPG. .5MPG would be enough IMHO. The cash outlay is about 500$
The best install would be to exchange the 27in solid fan for an electric , pusher through the same shroud . That is more difficult for me and puts all of the eggs in one fan basket . Doable tho.
The next most efficient would be a complete shroud of the exit air as many have mentioned. I could make a carbon enclosure, given enough time . The actual install will have the fans providing reversion control .
Yes its difficult to remove enough BTUs. My current project will have twin cooling fans. There as big as I can go and draw stupid amounts of power at idle speeds. I genuinely hope they will be satisfactory in the middle of summer at 115 degs to both run air conditioning and move the vehicle. Dual big alternators. Fans are continuous duty. They make bigger but are not continuous duty. Please post links to the 8k fans. I would prefer more.
16 INCH ULTRA ELECTRIC 165 WATT COOLING FAN FFD16-3000CFM UPTO 25MPH WIND... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/110831358724)
Scott
I admire the effort to explore alternatives. I owned a 1951 Chevy Sports Coupe. When I replaced my 1954 235 six cylinder with a 98 fuel injected 350 engine from a 3/4 ton truck I was told it would need a custom radiator. I installed the largest after market puller electric fan I could find with a built in shroud on the existing radiator. Covered most of radiator core. Had to cut down water pump shaft to make it fit. The engine had a 140 amp alternator and the fan took a 70 amp relay. Manual transmission. It worked! Original set up did not have a shroud of any kind, at least not when I bought it.
When I replaced my generator insulation on my 8KW Isuzu generator it was not as thick and left a one inch air gap around the stock shroud. Generator over heated. Closed the shroud gap with pipe insulation and it worked fine.
Controlling air flow around fans and radiator will be critical and is probably half the engineering challenge of this conversion. Rear and side radiators will pose different challenges.
I recently saw a commercial bus with what appeared to be five or six huge electric fans all with integral shrouds on a side radiator. The fans were clearly visible through the exterior grill, so wide spacing of grill slats. Fans appeared to cover all available surface of radiator- a wall of fans. I'm guessing these fans require a dedicated 300 amp alternator at minimum.
Radiator Cooling Fan For 2009-2013 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/234091504109)
These. But ordered from Autozone . about 200$ GM fan package. Rated about 10K per set .
I just opened the box. Look good. Made in Thailand.
Those sound almost too good to be true. Looking forward to how they work.
Mo powa
They almost fit.
Remove the flanges
Remove a tiny half moon on the lower edge of the bus X 2.
Make some brackets.
Might work.
Wil check on closing out the open edges of the rad .
Runs .
I like this package a lot . I closed out the gaps at the sides and top. The fans push a lot of air.
I see these fans are on the back, they push or pull?
Pull air out of the rear.
I will check the wires for temp, check amps and power supply . , set the temp controls. Road test. Tidy wiring.
Air flow is from FRONT to BACK.
So, they pull.
I wonder how pulling hot air over the electric motors will effect their longevity. AC electric fans on cars push cool air past the motors. Assuming that the air has to travel to the rear from the engine compartment?
Pierce
This install duplicates the OE install
The caddy fans are behind the rad.
Removed the metal fan bolts yesterday. Took about 2 hrs. Loctite and some electrolysis corrosion. The fan would not come off of the hub. Sprayed it with ATF and let it sit to this morning. Put one bolt back in and gave some tappy tap love . It must weigh about 20# . Dropped the alt belts off for space and wiggled it out.
Started the bus, with the bed cover up and the back door open, it never got the T stat open. Closed the doors and revved it up enough to get a little heat in the system and adjusted one fan to come on really low . Set the other temp switch just a little above the first and went for a ride.
The idle speed is up about 100+to 800 from 650 ish .
Way quiet. Much quieter .
Lots faster in the lower gears . I made some WOT pulls up to 60 ish to get the trans temp up . Set the higher fan to come on at about 180 +-.
Its 86* degrees right now . Not really hot for Florida but any issues should show up IMHO .
Ran around the block and set the upper fan a little higher. The low fan has been running 100% . There is some cross air flow with one fan on. The tell tales suck into and towards the running fan.
Made a few more WOT pulls through the gears . Temp goes to about 180 - 185 maybe . The high fan comes on and the temp is stable . Slow down and stop, the high fan goes off. So the system is not gaining heat.
The IR heat gun shows the rear bumper at 130* at the hot point . Wow . The engine door is also hot to the touch .
The low fan relay and breaker are warm to the touch, about 125* . I added some aluminum tape to heat sink the relays . I have 2 spares . I will order a set of breakers for spares. All of the wiring stays cool. The house batteries stayed up.
I need to build a recovery cap and bottle that works along with a new cap .
I will also thin the door slats some more .
Total success at this point . Will it make a WOT , 3rd gear hill? Seems like it should . We'll see. I can see a solid MPG possible .
Man, that sounds promising. Looking at the fans in ad it appears they counterrotate, I wonder what the thinking is on this? Have to admit, when I made my prior comments I didn't realize it was a rear radiator setup, was thinking about my side mount rad. Seems like the side mounts would have the advantage of not cooling the rad with engine heated air. The large bump in idle speed is a big deal for sure, likely you'll see a corresponding increase in efficiency.
Congradulations, you're now on the bleeding edge of diy cooling mods. Appreciate your sharing of documentation and process details.
Is the high idle speed going to cause problems in the future? Will it keep the transmission from going in gear? I am assuming it would not be too hard to lower the idle speed with the non computer engines and that the computer engines will automatically keep the idle speed the same.
I can set the idle speed down. I will do that as well as set the valves next week.
If I was told of the performance increase , I would call BS. But having run it , I will add fans and electric power to make this work. Nothing short of amazing .
Keep in mind that my power train is the worst of the bunch with the solid fan.
The side rad with hydro drive should be almost as good. Minus the hydro power losses. The Wanderlodge looks like the same era buses had some sort of fan control on the engine driven fan. This did not.
I already have a revision . I will add two low power fans on the bottom , engine side to cool that section and reduce the bumper temp.
Way back at the beginning, maybe even before this post subject started I questioned removing my engine fan because I have two large electric fans on the bumper side of the radiator and also a fan on a separate desert cooler transmission cooler.
Granted, I have the under powered (for the 36' coach) Detroit Diesel 8.2 Turbo-charged V8 engine, but I had already had an increase in power and MPG(slight) by going to a straight pipe and eliminating the 35 gallon OEM muffler.
Nice to see what I considered a possibility to an actual working process and be able to show the resulting increases.
Guess my idea wasn't so bad. I sometimes think about taking the non-functioning fans (same as the ones on the rear & in my pics) off the front AC condenser and put them on the engine side of the rear radiator
THANK YOU
That's why the Euros and Latins went with just a belt drive to the fore/aft mounted radiators and GM went with the sidewinder engine in the 4xxx series with side radiator. Hydraulic fans are an incredibly stupid, stupid idea. For us, motors and a pump to fail and leave us stuck by the side of the road with obsolete units. They also create heat and rob the engine of power and your pocketbook too. I'm betting one mpg in summer driving in our mountains. Good for you Mike! On a GV with a 2 cycle, the pump can easily be replaced with an alternator and the front AC condenser replaced with a radiator(s) using the heater hoses.
Pierce
I looked into running lines to the nose. I used hard plastic for the race truck to remote mount the radiator . Lots of failure point additions. Plus you have to get them a long ways and move the water a long ways. Seemed easier to add fans .
Several others including Brett, have used the existing heater hose to bring coolant to an aux radiator up front. I agree, it's a difficult job to remove the existing heater hose and replace it with a larger diameter hose/pipe to cut the friction loss. Their front aux radiator plus fans on the rear side radiator may be enough to eliminate the hydraulic system. So, on our coach, it's probably 25 feet each way. A 50 foot garden hose can flow a fair amount of water so the addition of a couple of radiators up front is cheap with a huge temp difference in the returning coolant. U300s come with a aux pump back at the engine to aid the flow to the front.
Pierce
A couple of notes. MY 87-88 ORED had no recovery radiator cap nor bottle . This worked fine when it ran at 180 . Needed coolant maybe every 3-4 months.
I swapped the cap to a NAPA sourced #703-1418 . It has 2 rubber seals and is 7# rated bleed off.
I added a 1/2 gallon bottle with hose into the bottom.
Some careful work with a flat tiny file to remove the radiator neck edges helps to allow turning the cap to the stop . About 120* Not 80.
This allows me to add almost 2 gallons of coolant , and should retain most of it .
I dont think that the system ever had any running coolant pressure. I'm sure that the 7# will find all of the old leaks waiting for love.
I also will add a low power fan under the bumper to cool that area and add some air control there.
There is a pressure side to the radiator, or water flowing from the water pump to the radiator. There is a suction side to the radiator, water flowing from the radiator to the water pump.
Stay off the pressure side with the radiator cap, any fill points with pressure caps, and overflow bottle and you will be much happier.
The removed all metal fan weighs 22#.
So, soon, i will have the solar panels charging my coach batteries, the batteries powering the electric fans.
So, in effect I have a solar aided RV.
Update: first trip with 6000 # trailer in 97 degree heat.
As prior noted the engine door blocks an excessive amount of air . I narrowed the flat faced slats almost 50% , hoping that it would allow enough air to pass . It does not. I had to prop the door open and the running temp stayed under 205 . I will remove the door for the trip home .
I have more air control to do to improve reserve capacity. Works as is but I would like the engine to be able to stay at 190- or so. It sits on 198 as it is with some hard pulls at 205?
I know stuff last longer at 190 , so will fix it.
The rear bumper blocks about 30% of the lower radiator and that area will be optimized with an air dam directly under the rad and some considerations for the air to exit cleaner .
The fuel use is still being calculated but the improvement is substantial so far.
Hard numbers post trip .
These fans also consume a good bit of my solar power and I will move towards 400 watt panels as cash allows. The ac uses a lot and these fans use a lot.
A radiator up front using the exiting heater core lines and an electric booster pump will get a lot of free air cooling (no fans needed).
I put the metal fan back on this morning . I ran WOT , 2nd gear out of Virginia mountains and it ran almost 215. Too hot for me .
I have to fetch a Super V race car in the mountains of Pennsylvania , run across the state in the hills , and make a drop and then head south next week.
I will build an air control /fan box, for the lower half of the radiator at my shop . The air blockage is pretty bad and I dont want to make a shot in the dark and make a mistake . My engine runs too well to mess it up.
The fuel MPG is 10.5 for the last 1200 miles or so. Up from 8.8 . I still cant believe how much faster and frugal it is without the fan .
Other notes. The RT 81 was so rough that one of my solar panels broke the retainer screws and it made horrendous noises inside. Backed out the screws and installed over size today.
The air dryer purge valve has a leak , causing a cycle every 5-6 min. Ordered a new NAPA purge kit. Will install tomorrow .
Edit ; The air issue of continual cycling .losing pressure on one tank ,appears to be the main line check valve. It works OK as is but will get cleaned or replaced at home .
The dual tire balance line fittings came loose and I lost 12 # of air on one set . Snugged up and checked.
I have a '95 U-240 with 2 hydraulic fans. I have a switch on my dash to change between hi and low speeds fans. I can hear the difference between hi and low real easy. When I switch from low speed to hi speed, I can not tell the difference by the engine performance. My little 250 hp kitty Cat 3116 would show the loss of 50hp. On the other side going from hi speed fans to low speed fans does not increase power at all. IMO I think 50hp must be a wrong number!
Pat
I agree that 50 HP sounds high. As far as I can tell the required power use of my fan is significant . over 1.5 MPG and quite a bit of speed. All of the data online shows 40 - 50 real. Cars with solid fans on the dyno show 30 HP loss. .
Anything that can activate the fan to an as required power loss will be an improvement . This has shown to be a huge improvement so far and will be once the engineering is done.
A programmable controller for existing hydraulic fan setups would seem to be fairly straightforward using off the shelf parts. I know folks have had problems with some of the legacy controllers and moved to the wax valve which is reliable. But if you want granular control of fan speed this is what it will take. Controllable pitch blades on fan would be another (very expensive) possibility but good contol is critical for any efficient setup.
No issues with the fans. They are on thermostat switches and work as engineered.
The issue is that bottom 30% of the radiator is air hindered .
I will clean up and control that area .
Ran the return trip with all of the fans working . Pulled flat down through the mountains of Pennsylvania and WV. Never got warmer than 190 .
The metal fan slows it down power off , engine braking , quite a bit better than removed. I read that on the wanderlodge post and dismissed it , but the brakes are needed more with fan removed . ESp in the hills.
Power up the hill is also reduced of course. 40 -50 Hp does not seem unreasonable . It is a lot faster removed.
MPG went from a solid 10.5 to 8.5 - 9 with adding the fan back on. Over the 3000mile total , 1500 each way.
This MPG is towing a light 2 car open trailer at around 7500#. both ways within 1000#.
My running speed is 2200 RPM and about 62mph. faster on the down hills and slower up .
Cruise cost about 1.5 MPG as it coast down hills and request WOT uphills.
Update
Added air control under the bumper as well as 4 small fans .
These fans will blow air under the bumper and through a set of holes along the bottom of the bumper.
Now the radiator is fully shrouded with a total of 6 fans. Each pair has its own power and controller. Solar powers all of them in addition to a one wire GM alternator .
Mike,
I can pull any alternator off cars or PUs from late model wrecks at Pick N Pull for under $30. Which one wire alternator do you recommend and why? I will be pulling the AC compressor and installing the alternator in it's place.
Thanks Mike,
Pierce
I just buy a GM 100 amp one wire off eBay for 105$ .
Then engineer the bracket to fit . I am on my second as it hangs low and without the trailer stub, it's easy to knock it off on ramp driveways.
So now I leave a stub in all of the time .
Pretty well done for now. The upper fans did the job well at initial testing without any control in the lower section of the radiator. Now that I've added the 4 7 in fans to evacuate that area , I'm sure that I've enough cooling for around 50-75% duty cycle. Plenty for Florida towing my small trailer.
I will continue to carry the metal fan to ensure proper karma .
It looks as tho I can also simply remove the 2 belts to de power the stock fan. As it is currently mounted , I may just do that and see how it works. Those belts are the first 2 and pretty easy to remove.
I wound up cutting holes in the lower bumper with a plasma cutter .
Still not sure what to do with the engine door . It's amazing how much air it slows down . So much that heading north in the mountains , that simply opening the door , cooled it over 10 degrees.
Speaking of engine doors, I'm still needing an engine door for a GV 102" wide. 96" coach engine door is too narrow.
Pierce
Ive often thought that there would be a low pressure area behind the coach and any way you could offset that would improve cooling and economy. I think the holes would allow air to move towards the low pressure and help cool. The 320 has louvers in the rear door and im sure there is gains to be had by doing so. Opening the door pretty much proves that to me. I like 👍👍
Scott
Scott, I think you're on to something there, would a deflector mounted at the rear of the roof help any ? I'm thinking of the wind deflectors mounted on station wagons and they were available for SUVs with the window in the tail gate.
NO, a deflector would DIMINISH the vacuum behind the coach.
I have been thinking lately about the air intake for the engine air being where it is not the best
place for the best efficiency. We were loading up a standby generator and it was overheating so
I remove the lovers in front of the rad and problem solved.
Careful here.
HUGE difference between side and rear radiator.
Rear radiator take air in from under the coach, after it has passed over the HOT transmission and engine.
Side radiators take air in from the side of the coach.
That was to try to keep the rear window clean
Actually, the lower the pressure behind the coach, the less powerful the fan has to be to provide sufficient air flow through the CAC and radiator (again on rear radiator coaches).
Certainly if there is another objective, such as keeping the rear camera clean, a deflector will assist with that.
Air flow test to come. My Son has a go pro and ribbon is in stock . Next time that we are both around , we'll take some video .
A simple mono meter would show actual differential. Im pretty confident it exists with my background fan speed set so low and yet the coach still runs below fans sense temperature. Hopefully Ill prove to myself what is actually going on eventually. Peter I agree in regards to poor placement of inlet and I still feel that the stock inlet is undersized for the 450 ism. I can't show any improvements to the larger inlet grate but still believe it exists. This is also speed rated, if you drive faster its a bigger deal, slower not as much. Aerodynamics of a box kite.
Scott
4 of these under bumper ,; 2x 7" inch Universal Slim Fan Push Pull Electric Radiator Cooling 12V Mount... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/281784607040)
2005 Escalade fan pack ; New Cooling Fan Assembly Chevy Avalanche Suburban Yukon Silverado 1500... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/234552183035?fits=Year%3A2005&hash=item369c6648fb:g:5FkAAOSwyOli8yFj) I used autozone with better guarantee.
1 of these replacing the OE AC compressor; NEW CHROME STREET ROD GM HIGH OUTPUT ALTERNATOR FITS 1-ONE WIRE SELF... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/373098762687)
3 of these. one for each big fan and one for the 4 smaller fans ;50A AMP Circuit Breaker Fuse Reset 12V-48V DC Car Boat Auto Waterproof... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/114504234885)
Auto zone RL44 relay and RL 40 relay harness . 3 each , same as above .
Autozone fan control module , 3x each runs a fan pack . set at different temps ;https://www.autozone.com/cooling-heating-and-climate-control/engine-cooling-fan-module/p/compressor-works-engine-cooling-fan-module-733653/267187_0?rrec=true
To be clear; This has not been retested in the mountains with the 4 added lower fans , holes in the bumper and the slimmed rear engine door slats .
Mike, when you get it all done, how about some high resolution photos of the alternator changeover and the fans? A photo is worth a thousand...
Pierce
Ran about 50 miles up the expressway ramps at WOT in the finished configuration. Never saw over 190 and with all the fans running , it stays under 190 easy.
The only tweaks will be to set the fan temps in better sequential ranges. Hard to do as when you stop and open the door to adjust them , the temp has come down already.
The modified door seems to pass enough airflow now.
Next big deal is to prettify the bus this fall . Paint and general beautification .
Foregot. Return trip with. OE metal fan ran at 9.2 mpg. So a solid 1.2 or more mpg increase on electric only.
Yeah. Prettify.
I'll paint it at my shop.
Still removing po paint from bumpers.
Still going to do stripes or one color? What type of paint are you going to use? I bought BASF paint for mine just havnt done it yet.
2 part single stage .
White. Upper section wedge.
Teal or maybe blue lower section. Wife has the color chips .
Tweaks. I just ordered a larger alternator pully to slow it down a little and increase the belt wrap along with square inches of belt to pulley involvement .!I still get a little squeal when the fans and ac are running. This should solve that. Also noticed a 300 amp option in the same case GM 10 si ? That may run the ac all y itself if you kept it cool and can spin it cleanly .
They make another version similar to the 10si except it is a larger frame and would produce more power yet not run as hot. The 10si can be made to produce more power but will heat saturate and shorten life. It will also like the slower speeds of a larger pulley because of its increased size. I looked a little but couldn't find a link. Same plug. I converted all my V belt drive vehicles over to them but have been running serpentine belt for years now. They exist and mount in same location possibly needing a longer adjustment arm and belt to clear the bigger case. Bigger is almost always better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hAuaqXadMw
CS144 or CS130. May be others
Scott
BillaVista.com-Alternator Bible Tech Article by BillaVista (http://www.billavista.com/tech/Articles/Alternator_Bible/index.html#onewire)
I had a '63 Flexible that I was going to convert to a motorhome. I bought it in Portland Ore. It used ford starter motors for the heater blowers and had an oil cooled alternator. Sold it when I found the '81 FT.
Probably an 8V-71 with a 300 amp direct drive, brushless, oil cooled alternator. They were pretty standard on all buses. My ex-Greyhound had one. Big, heavy and probably expensive but trouble free.
Pierce
Update: ran this past weekend to the Sebring races with the small single car 3200# trailer and the engine door modified . Towed fine and the temp sits on 195 F with the ambient near 96f . Open the engine door and temp drops to 190 or less.. Run at 2100 RPM and the temp is stable, but run up to 2300 and temp rises to 200. So, clearly not a lot of reserve cooling . I need to reseal the fan shroud a little and maybe move the sensors around . But all of the 6 fans come on when hot and they cool the engine quickly when off power.
Faster, quieter, and for some reason less oil consumption and black smoke under load. This may be due to better burn at a little hotter chamber temps.. No idea why the oil consumption would drop . Was about 2 qts per 1000 miles and now maybe 1 .
Fuel MPG is a solid 10 .7 or more. Pretty sure it will be 11 if I dont pull something .
I wil carry the OE fan for any runs up north thru the mountains. For the flats of Florida we are good. 80 % success at this point . My new to me 440 watt panels should be in in a week or so so that the AC and engine fans can all run off the solar batt pack .
New door mod from wife's input .
I don't hate it.
Ran down the road with steamers on the back end. Video will be up in a couple of days.
No surprises tho. Linear flow along the side . Pretty dead air behind .
My Sim says that there is a high probability that the airflow without any fans, may be into the engine door at medium speed. Not out.
Ask NASCAR drivers, that area sucks. Semi's started putting a bubble on the backs of trailers to get better mileage.
https://youtu.be/AeMzoFcv1D0
Mike was that with the fans on?
No.
It's really hard to get it hot . I have the shrouding nice and tight and the fans only run a couple of minutes to cool off .
I will have to run it for about an hr at 2300 rpm to get the fans on solid.
I thought that they would come on but I was wrong.
The airflow flows into the rear door at this point .
There's a fair chance that the fans could blow into the rear door and with a deflector on the side door, the airflow would be consistent and flow into the rear and out the side .
I think that I can turn my fans around pretty easily. May try it next pass .
I had a van that had the rear windows that opened at the bottom. One time I left them open thinking I'd get some ventilation from the front through to the rear and out. Didn't happen. The air would enter at the rear and I would smell gas fumes from the exhaust.
Right
It's working well as is now. I may try to reverse the fans while adding a small deflection panel on the side vent. If I have problems. I agree , the natural flow is into the rear panel and out the bottom and sides.
Just returned from another 300 mile trip to Sebring running at 200 most of the way. Runs great less black puff on take off and fast.
Now for the annual wedge brake adjustment
And prep for paint
During your video what speed were you at? Looks like 35-40. Would be curious what it does at higher speeds
Scott
55-60
Latest tid bits. My fans are powered by the solar system and the added 100 Amp delco one wire alternator . Turns out that the fans must draw about 110 amp at full cool. Oh yeah. solar works less good at night :) Ran about 1000 miles over the weekend to Road Atlanta for a race(didnt win) and averaged a tiny bit over 10mpg . But the return trip was overnight and I had to use the boost to combine the alternators to power the fans .
The removed fan drew a lot of power( 30-50HP?) and that power has to be replaced by something. It takes a lot of amps . I will read my amp draw next chance that I get .
This also explains why my AC and the fans dont make the solar system happy . Fans at 80 ish amp, AC at 70 amps.
Still the compromises to remove the BA fan are worth it to me . 15-20 % better fuel burn( 80-100$ per 1000miles?) , more power, much quieter, less oil consumption at higher temps. ?? No idea why other than burning off moisture .
https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/335482602_937946637343869_8711101979077769158_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=fVuXl-D_Q-4AX8edUN6&_nc_oc=AQmVq9LYH6jmXw5rGq7DPHkiRqKC0iFfUgI_7r7n3XHa1yAaJyvHXBy76mGC9LE-ebo&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-2.fna&oh=00_AfAzBLgpFcKSz-wkMTxWTLVCyDoAvkXpYRr0yd0jvvnBmg&oe=641B865F
We talked about air entering the rear door. This bus shoves the air in.
What a great looking coach! Buick, Hall-Scott or Cummins diesel?
At the start, our FD was mostly 590 and 935 Hall-Scott. Good engine.
P
One of those with the straight 8 was on our early motorhome searches. I wound up buying a commuter Flexible with the V-671 in Portland but never finished the conversion before finding our '81 40' FTX sold it to my cousin and he drove it to Anchorage.
Really makes me curious on what's is actually happening in regards to air pressure and flow direction zones. Im assuming there is a hi pressure zone ahead of the coach and a low pressure behind. Low pressure would assist in pulling air out of the back of the coach at freeway speeds. But you can guess all day long. Proof is in the wind tunnel.
How about a DIY Manometer? You could bring the tube into the bedroom and video it at different speeds and probe locations. Building one videos at: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=diy+manometer
Pierce
Anyone seen the Ford vs Ferrari movie? How about that tape and yarn trick? With a rear camera, you may be able to see what it does while on the move. Worst case, a Go Pro with a suction cup mount.
Mike had that prior at I think was 50-60 mph.
Very little flow in any direction at the rear opening at 55. Kinda dead area.
Maybe a roof deflector would gain a little flow . I see most modern DP has some sort of air control at the roof edge.
I was thinking they were after filling the void behind the coach, IE low pressure area. This would make me guess that the sides/top near the rear are also a low pressure area but higher than the rear. Think about a big hole punched in the normal air pressure, getting pushed/sucked back in. I think the manometers would show a differential between the sides and the rear. If you can use this to naturally draw air across radiator you would be using the energy already spent in propelling the coach forward. Free cooling, or I should say prepaid cooling being a byproduct of forward movement . Could be a simple solution. Everyone has seen the big flaps behind a 18 wheeler trailer. Same idea I think 🤔 Fun stuff to think about
Scott
Latest. The fans work well.
Some glitches with the controllers, that don't seem to be weather resistant . I carry a spare and may change to a weather tite controller.
My connections on the gm fan pack face upwards and have held water enough to corrode the connection. Drilled a small drain hole .
I still carry the oe fan for karma .
Fuel burn is a solid 1-2 mpg better.
Well I wanted to add my two cents. The Bronco engine swap was overheating. FFR 16" dual fans 3000 CFM each. Very well shrouded. 110 OAT. Would overheat while driving either slow or freeway speeds. Yes it's hot out and so was I. No air conditioning. FFR Amperage draw at 28 amps total. Air exit speed from radiator about 8.8 MPH. FFR support was helpful but without a resolution. Radiator is 3.5 inches thick with a 1" condenser in front of it and a pair of oil coolers. Engine and trans. Replaced FFR fans with SPAL 16 inch fans from Summit racing. 188$ each. Next day delivery. 2/3 the CFM rating. Exit air speed increased to 20mph. No longer overheats and temp cycles between 195 and 205 with fans cycling. Will be installing a two speed set up that runs both fans in series for low and parallel for high speed. Hopefully I'll be able to run the AC with this set up. Total amperage draw is 56 amps on high. 56 amp is about 1 HP. Wish I could have installed a direct drive but no room. Being able to cool with 1HP is great IMO but it's a big draw. Add in HVAC components and headlights with windshield wipers and its big amperage numbers to support.
Amazon.com: Spal 30102082 16" Paddle Blade Puller Fan : Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/Spal-30102082-Paddle-Blade-Puller/dp/B009OBOWGO/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=oTAnR&content-id=amzn1.sym.5f7e0a27-49c0-47d3-80b2-fd9271d863ca%3Aamzn1.symc.e5c80209-769f-4ade-a325-2eaec14b8e0e&pf_rd_p=5f7e0a27-49c0-47d3-80b2-fd9271d863ca&pf_rd_r=WCBHS4EHT9TT3VTGPHN1&pd_rd_wg=yz7yw&pd_rd_r=826001de-d90c-4b93-a734-83f839637762&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m)
Good to know.
Thanks