I had never seen it or heard of it but found it Forsale on Facebook. I guess the only one with a series 60.
1995 U320 40ft
Surprise, AZ
$79,000
I had 2 series 60 engines-one in a Wanderlodge and 1 in our prevost. They were powerful then in those 2 heavy coaches and if this is a true ad- will make this 32,000 pound coach a real runner.
While the 92 series is the first HD electronic engine, the 60 series was electronic starting with the first one manufactured. When Mercedes bought Detroit, they Incorporated many of the 60 series in the DD13. It had teething troubles for the first several years and took some time to achieve the 60 series legendary reliability.
Pierce
It's too bad that the series 60 was sold just to be discontinued.
A great engine but like the 92 series 2 cycle and CATs, it was going to be very difficult and costly to smog it. Mercedes/Detroit still supplies all parts for the 60 series as well as still making the 2 stroke 92 series for off road use in the U.S.
The DD13, 15 and 16 are very reliable and have the reputation of giving the least amount of problems with the emission related components. Hard to beat when mated to the Detroit DT12, the 12 speed automatic manual transmission.
Good comparison between Cummins, Detroit, Paccar and Volvo here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5vMAjz2Mjs
Pierce
It is not a fable with the E-19 engine listed it the spec sheet.
That coach has been talked about around here several times.
Here is a link or 2 that discusses it. Reply #4 in the first thread is the bible on this coach.
E 19 engine (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=18512.msg127288#msg127288)
Detroit Diesel Series 60 Engines in Foretravels (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=23336.msg180973#msg180973)
Mike
Both of my series 60s didn't have smog junk on them. Neither required DEF.- which is a government joke
Knowing nothing about this engine, I had to Google it.
Wikipedia says this engine came in 11.1 L, 12.7 L, and 14.0 L. Going by the advertised 430hp rating, I'm guessing this U320 had one of the two "smaller" displacement engines? Anybody know for sure?
I find it interesting that the DDEC electronic control increased the horsepower when cruise control was engaged. HP went from "normal" 430 to 470 on cruise! That would definitely encourage me to set the cruise control whenever possible. :thumbsup:
The 12.7 L was rated at 1,350 - 1,650 lb-ft of torque @ 1200 rpm. Compares favorably with the Cummins M11 of the same period. See below:
Detroit Diesel Series 60 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_60)
Cummins M-series engine - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cummins_M-series_engine)
I have a Freightliner Century with a 12.7 and Eaton Autoshift in it. I had a mishap 2 years ago that twisted the frame and totaled the truck. It still starts and runs great with 875K miles. I can't seem to bring myself to sell it to the wrecking yard, so it just sits here outside. I occasionally daydream about what I might do with it including transplanting the 12.7 into our U240 but that would take a stupid amount of work and $$$. Certainly not practical if even possible. Having double the torque would definitely be nice at times!
With DDEC II, the ECU we have in all of our U300s on the forum, it just takes the correct serial number to change HP. With the early U300s, it's 300hp, ours is 350hp and if you have a fire truck engine number, the ECU can be programmed for 350 for a small fire truck to 500hp for a ladder truck. Now, if you have a boat, the normal hp is 535 but going up to 620 or so but TBO comes down to 2200 hours or so. It's just a matter of how long the injectors spray. This is the same for the 60 series. Think just about all 60 series had Jake brakes also.
Our U300 is the first electronic Detroit I've driven. Much easier to diagnose any problem and no rack to run like the mechanical engines. But, the mechanical engine was dead reliable and didn't need electricity to run. Some even had air starting.
So, Detroit Diesel was part of GM with the larger 2 cycles made at Cleveland Diesel. Cleveland later became EMD, Electromotive Diesel and now powers a high percentage of the locomotives in the west. EMD was taken over by CAT so they make the big 710 cubic inch per cylinder railroad diesels.
Detroit also made the Series 50 for road use and the Series 51, a 2 cycle without any valves and the 53 series.
The 6-71 and the 6-53 were available with aluminum blocks and some used in Vietnam were all aluminum with even non-magnetic fasteners and air start. The aluminum 6-53 is popular with the racers today as it puts out 1000 hp on nitro on 318 cubic inches.
The 12-71s used on Swift Boats on Vietnam rivers were 475hp each and would push the aluminum boats to 31 kts but would go over 700 miles at 10 kts, 300 plus miles at 21 kts. This is the engine that Dave had in his ex-Greyhound MCI bus.
Pierce
Pre def 60 series cost 1/2 the amount to do an in frame on than Cummins ISX. We had one done 3 months ago for $12000.00. I hate we lost the ability to do it in house. I don't own the trucks. I handed over the equipment and business to my niece 5 years ago and I stayed on as merely an advisor. She buys nothing but used trucks powered by series 60 and manual transmissions. I would love to have one in a uni coach weighing 32000 lbs. Left lane unit no doubt.
A member just let me know I forgot the 6-110 series. 6 cylinders at 110 cubic inches per cylinder and the 149 series. The 149 series went up to 20 cylinders in V configuration. A 6 cylinder block at each end with an 8 cylinder block in the middle.
Pierce
Whoaaaa...that's pricey :o
I would enjoy taking a U320 with a Series 60 Detroit for an extended "test drive"!
Decades ago, met and ogled a U300 "converted to 60 series DD" by the owner who also owned a truck wrecking yard in Tucumcari NM.
Some pretty outrageous performance stories. Ya, a 36' no slide with 60 series.
YES, I loved every minute of it!
Wolf that sures sounds like fun.
Well, you KNOW I asked him: "So, what will it do?"
One story was him heading east on I 40 toward Amarillo. He was in the left lane doing about 75. A trucker was on his CB (see this was a long time ago) and said to his trucker buddy: "wish these RV's would stay out of our lane".
Foretravel owner replied on his CB (see, it WAS a long time ago): "Trucker, I got your front door" and hit the throttle.
So, how fast were you going, I asked? No idea (no GPS-- see, it was a long time ago) but the speedometer needle pointed to 10.
With that rig I would have to get on the cb, one of those super loud ones with echo, and say I wish these truckers would stay out of my bus lane...... I really sorta need to do that.
How about the Cummins 855 Big Cam? This is a million mile engine. International, CAT and Mack have also made some great engines.
The older engines were more reliable but made more emissions than today's diesels.
Pierce
Often wondered: If older engines got better MPG but more emissions while newer engines got less emissions but poorer MPG and lesser engine life and HP....who wins?
From what I have read, the electronic engines get 5% better mileage and the common rail engines get another 5% better mileage plus lower the emissions. Other improvement may also have been made. I also read that when Roger Penske bought Detroit, he introduced the DDEC electronic engines and did the blower bypass that was supposed to add 20% to the mileage.
So, the problem seems to be two things. The electronic engines in some cases give ECU, main fuel injection pump problems, injector wiring problems. The additional smog sensors, DEF, etc have their own problems and shops may not have the replacement parts in stock so the engine ECU may not allow the engine to run without these parts. In other words, you could be stuck for a while.
Having a electronic failure in a car is not the end of the world but RVs are huge and knowledgeable shops are not in every town. Plus, a little tow truck won't do the trick either.
Our U300 has been trouble free but my old bus with the 8V-71 was all mechanical and didn't need an electrical system to run. It could even be bump started. Still got outstanding fuel mileage.
The new engines in fleet operations may exceed one million miles before needing overhaul but so could some of the older engines. RV engines won't live this long on average. The bus company that sold me the bus advertised it with a new engine. He considered it new at 108K miles. Overhauled at about 1000K.
Pierce
"More emissions" kills the planet and impacts the health/longevity of future generations.
"Poorer MPG and lesser engine life" hurts the feelings and the pocketbook of the owner.
I lived in southern California (Riverside) in the 60's and 70's when it was pretty smoggy. It's better out there now (smog-wise). That's a win in my book.
I've had the 855 in 300... 350..... and 400 hp in the big cam. The 400 will "get out of the way" if you know what I mean.. I believe it is one of the first that Pittsburg Power modified and it would stay together with HP numbers beyond many of the "modern" produced HD Diesel engines.
Check out Jeff with Gino's Garage working on a 97 Wanderlodge with Series 60. He is an excellent mechanic and really knows the older Detroits. He has his own Wanderlodge and has done great work on his 6V92. I wish he lived closer to me and worked on older Foretravels!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoiPVaoVQNI
Being from SoCal, I 100% agree and can't wait for all electric vehicles. Right now, we fuel with the highest percentage biodiesel if possible. I had to get out of the throttle a on grades with the Greyhound but the DDEC does an excellent job cutting the black smoke out. The DDEC is set to the reduced fueling until boost is up by default. Makes it a little slow off the line with the tall first gear.
The smog would come up to Santa Barbara and we complained but Pomona/Riverside was absolutely the worst. A friend that worked at the coroner's office and said the non-smokers lungs looked like a pack a day user.
Jerry, the Wanderlodge must be a tiny bit slow with the 6V-92TA in it. I think the 8V-92TAs were installed in the later Lodges. They are heavy.
Pierce
Pierce,
Jeff has a some videos on upgrading his injectors from 9B90s to 9G95s. Hp rating is supposed to go from 330 to 350HP. Hope it made a difference for the expense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C5bA34z2u8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_WRrq67Kqg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56EGcE-Cr7g
Jerry
This is a mechanical Detroit 92 series engine. Our Foretravel engines are electronic DDEC (Detroit Diesel Electronic Control) so the horsepower increase is just a firmware change in the DDEC II electronic control unit. From 300 hp to 620 hp is just an engine serial number to allow Detroit to make the increase legal for emissions. The long round shaft you see in the video is the famed "rack" that has to be adjusted for each injector. For us, there is no rack to adjust so our engines are very simple to maintain. We can test the injectors in the comfort of the cab with our ProLink 9000. Timing is done by the DDEC ECU and all are exactly the same. Gone are the days of "running the rack" and the mystery of it all. No need for "old time mechanics that are in short supply and getting shorter every day" as even with the old mechanical engines, there are DIY YouTube video like you posted to take the mystery out of it all for the old mechanical engines.
The mechanical Detroits could run backwards also so the muffler became the air cleaner. Bad deal if you allow the vehicle to roll backwards at a stop sign with a manual transmission.
The Detroits on my fire dept were 8V-71 engines so 8 cylinders at 71 cubic inches per cylinder. These were mated to a syncro 5 speed transmission (including CL) The engine was 318 hp that was turned up a bit to 2400 rpm so they screamed sounding like a 4 cycle at 4800 rpm at each shift. They had 19 to 1 compression ratio as non-turbo engines compared to our 17 to 1 ratio in Foretravels. This meant they would start in a thousand of a second as you only had to touch the starter button and they were running. With the engine right behind the cab, the fan noise and the engine noise were loud but when pumping, the noise including the fire water pump was incredible if pumping at maximum throttle.
Pierce
Read an article awhile back that some scientist wrote about the volcano that had been erupting had put more pollution in the air in five days than mankind did in 10,000 years.
Guess our "polluting" engines are kind of puny in comparison.
The Tail pipe is the low hanging fruit, the list of emissions that are not quantified is endless. NASA is a good example or the largest user of fossils, our military, the list goes on. When a solar panel is manufactured who measures the various emissions related to the process for example? When I was a kid in England we had those ' pea soup " fogs created for the most part by burning coal, so bad that visibility would be measured in feet. We progress and regress in some form or other on a daily basis and to require emerging nations not to follow the path we laid is disingenuous at best.