Shortly after purchasing our Coach we replaced a leaking radiator. Assume but can't be sure if it was original but now we have a major leak in the core and it appears to require replacement again at prices over 50% higher than previously. I'm told there are no other suppliers.
I plan to reach out to Atlas.
That's not a great thing to hear about. I believe mine is original, but it was repaired locally last year and is again leaking. I've got a new one on order from FT, which is due in next month.
Radiator could have been defective,could have excessive vibration,could it possibly have mixed or bad coolant?,let us know what
Atlas says,what coolant do you use? If you have a radiator shop near you have them take a look at it.
Randy,
With it being only 4 years old you should be able to have it cleaned, pressed and have the bad tube plugged. Any good truck shop should be able to remove it if you are not in a place to DIY. Now if somehow the chemistry is whey off and the radiator is ate up after only 4 years then you have bigger problems. Are sure that it is in the core and not a tank gasket leaking and spraying on the core?
Mike
Not good news. I would expect installing a new replacement radiator to be a "one time and never worry about it again" job.
Our old '93 model coach is still running on the original factory radiator, and so far no leaks. Knock wood.
At this point, I'm hoping the OEM radiator lasts longer than I do. 8)
This is "My Guy" he's old he's crotchety and you need to ship your radiator in a reusable box with a return label enclosed. His main business is truck and heavy equipment radiators*. The '62 Studebaker's post collision radiator re-core was in the neighborhood of $6(10^2) not including shipping.
Maybe you have someone similar in a small building near you.
Bob Rondeau's Radiator Shop
279 River Road Suite E
Bow NH 03304
(603) 225-6000
*And those guys show up with the radiator on their truck and use their crane to move the radiator into and out of Bob's shop.
Randy,
Can you tell the cause of the damage:
Corrosion from the outside-- fins degraded?
Corrosion from the inside/coolant?
Rock or other exterior damage?
Some times a bad radiator cap will over pressure the water system and blow out solder seams/tubes.
Coach is at Paul Yasbeck. Hope to have more info soon and will update. Also will let you know the response I get from Atlas.
He knows what he's doing had work done by him
I emailed Atlas Radiator to express frustration and ask for guidance. I'll discuss with Paul. Here's their reply:
"Some 15-20 years ago, I spent about $250,000 replacing cores under warranty because Foretravel - in direct opposition to my strong suggestion - would not sit the entire unit on a solid "shelf" and I was too stupid to cut them off. They were running about 20/month at that time. The unit was far too heavy to be slung in a bracket, especially after they added fans, hyd motors, etc. A consultant bore me out by measuring the amplitude of the vertical motion and recommended a beefing up of the bracket, as it exists today, which is only marginally effective. I'm surprised that anyone gets out of the driveway without problems.
Sorry but I'm not going down that road. My suggestion to you is 1) get a "shelf" installed to support the weight of the rad/cac properly, and 2) have an industrial radiator shop recore the jacket water section for you.
Larry H Frederick
Atlas Radiator Inc"
Just my opinion, but too many 20 year old units still going with the original radiator to believe his story.
I gather Larry has viable issue and knows of what he talks about.
I looked at the set up a couple of years ago in our coach when I was over my pit doing other stuff and had a thought that should we need to replace our radiator I was definitely going to add some support were needed.
I guess anyone who has recently replaced theirs is now thinking "am I going to have this issue sometime"
Johnh
28 years (and 5 owners) in the case of our coach! :o
Has Atlas been the sole supplier of original radiators to FOT since day 1?
Is the radiator support structure the same in the (side-mounted radiator) GVs and the Unicoach models?
I wonder how many Foretravel owners have had radiator problems with the added fans, hyd motors, etc.
My rad is leaking now and I've already dropped the $4100 on a replacement from Foretravel, which will be built by Atlas Radiator. It's due in next month. So Atlas says it will likely have a problem down the road but still sells them to FT?
I gather you make them for the sales person that asks for them made a certain way, usually to the design they want. Suggesting a support method different to the drawing Sent to Atlas is or was not followed. Not their issue if there really is one.
One point is that I do not see the aging out of the cooling fins and tubes to be a problem with the support question mentioned though.
Johnh
John,
Actually, I have seen BOTH-- "rotted fins" generally from coaches driven on salted roads or parked next to the ocean for long periods
OR
Mechanically failed radiators-- may be from torquing (have NOT done the engineering on that one-- my job as an inspector was to identify issues, not their root cause!
Maybe Atlas should have worked with Foretravel to address this alleged issue -- or at least notified purchasers of the potential problem before it occurred. Show and tell photos would be nice to have in this situation.
The radiators we use are small compared to alot of the ones they make mainly for the oilfield on generators and gas compressors,ours are probably a small percentage of their business,another company to try is Huffman Radiator in Sinton TX,
near Corpus Christi,they can recore ours.
The quote from the guy at Atlas above said they did $250,000 in warranty work at one point. Given the radiators were around $2500 years back, that equates to about 1000 units. Total sales must have been a decent volume if $250k was just the warranty part.
Hummm, I wonder a bunch of FT radiators are 20+ years old if it was such a problem!!!
Hummm, I wonder a bunch of FT radiators are 20+ years old if it was such a problem!!! Sounds like a lack of concern for their customers.
Slim, if you say Atlas should inform buyers of potential issues this is not their duty.
Johnh
Brett - Paul messaged me that the failure was "Leaking where core meets tank front side". Haven't talked to him yet but he and I will talk soon about the becket and figure out where to go. I'm not anxious to replace or recore if the bracket is the issue.
Sounds like the same place mine is leaking from, where the core meets the tank. Same place it leaked from when it was repaired last year. A few pics over here:
Radiator is leaking again (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=43535)
THAT, other than a bad solder joint, is indicative of over-pressure. Or freeze damage.
On heavy vehicles traveling over rough terrain, i.e. Elliott, the tube to header plate solder joints work loose from the frame twisting the radiator. Flowing additional solder around the radiator tubes helps.
It started leaking in September, so temps were still around 100...definitely not freeze related. I installed a new 15psi cap when I got the coach in April, so I don't think it's that either. Previous owner had the same issue in the same place previously repaired though, so who knows what's up with it. I plan to keep this one when the new one is installed, so maybe I can have it repaired and keep as a spare.
I trust my hands and my eyes, so I have to ask: Is there enough room in the filler neck for the excess pressure to get around the gasket? I ask only with an overabundance of caution since I blew up the heater in my Ford Falcon because the radiator cap's plunger fit snugly in the radiator neck. It was a case of "I need a new one of these" not being such a good idea.
Try a lower PSI radiator cap and see if it holds 180 degrees if it does it may help with the leak,it will not hurt anything.
So much has been said too the problem, insufficient support. Would be nice to see how the failure is caused and build to prevent it. Is the center of the core being overstressed by its own weight, or are both tanks racking causing failure. If one was building a radiator cradle center core weight and racking could be addressed. The additional loads to support fans and stress from them would then be moved to the cradle. There would be a added weight penalty but reliability also holds a value. Hopefully some one will figure out a resolution and share with us.
Scott
This is the very question I will pose to Paul Yasbeck. If it's a structural failure I don't want to spend the $$$ to replace with new only to have it happen again.
Maybe there's an engineer FT owner who can also provide structural input. I can't imagine the "weight penalty" would be an issue.
Jor in another post just posted this photo. Gives a clearer picture for me.
I doubt this is the issue with mine. Mine seems to leak only as the engine heats up or cools down. Sitting in my yard, it doesn't leak. When I start it to move it, it will leak while temps are 140-160ish. Once out on the road and everything stabilizes at operating temp, and the t-stat opens at least once, it doesn't leak. My guess is dissimilar metals heating/expanding at different rates and just opens up enough to leak while in this range.
So the U320 is fatter than your coach. I'm within a 1000 lbs of rear axle weight. Full fluids. Add a heaving trailer in and its too much technically. 3610 coach U320
Reply #18 picture #5 shows a different mounting for the fan motor on mine. Maybe the bottom has a support for the fan motors.
hydraulic fan motor (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=27326.msg225308#msg225308)
So in thinking about this for several hours bottom support for fans and tank would make sense. The other cross mounted fans shown would help to offset being a truss. PO had dragged the back of my rear tank prior and that has been on my mind also. Rolled the bottom aft edge of tank. I don't think failure is being caused by racking being it is supported by two mounts in the upper third of the tank. Vibration from fans and just the shear weight multiplied by road conditions make sense to me. Support would reduce these loads I am guessing. The additional weight will offset what I lost removing the muffler?
Scott
Was doing some thinking too,haven't looked back but it seems from memory that the 320's have more radiator trouble then the smaller engines,maybe the mounting difference???
So mine is mounted similar to Jor's photo i posted. Two vertical mounts per fan. I believe they all have the same radiator, but not 100% sure about that. Those vertical fan mounts are attached to the fan shroud and that seems to be the support for the core also. It would be a truss, but? Possibly a strut on each end and a X in the middle would work? Off-road car I would cradle and pot core in place to lower flange.
Larry, the salesman at Atlas, told me they are all the same. Some numbering changes over the years but the same radiator. Here's the tag on my original radiator and the Atlas drawing of the new radiator.
jor
Looking at the revision dated 1/11/02 in the upper left corner of the drawing "added full doubler plates. I would like to see what part was strengthened at that time.
So in the corner of the tank on both sides it showed those 4 triangles on both sides. Ill try to see if i can see that, that would extend support from the tanks. Would be nice to see a failed tank prior to removal. May be possible to see core from inside of tank also, possibly surrendering more information. Curious, good stuff
Update I looked at my coach and it does have one of those triangles in the top forward inside corner, so I'm assuming the other seven are there.
In Ricks photo it show a cradle under the radiator. I dont think mine has that
So I wonder how much R&R time it would be to remove the assembly as shown ?
I was quoted 12 hours R & R.
Remove radiator (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40709.0)
Sound like 12 hrs is close. Chris said in the day they could do them in 6 hours doing them all the time. Its all the other add ons that kill the time.
Your can have the radiator out in half a day 4hr the trick is to have a good jack I used a table jack did the job by my self after you have everything out of the way grill coolers hose antifreeze drain and hydraulic oil unhook hydraulic fan hoses there are only four bolts holding the rad in place the first picture is not my job I think you can find a table jack at harbour freight
Harbour freight 249.99 500lbs at labour at $100. To 150.00 an hour you can pay that fast then sell it
I bought one, and it is handy for many things. Thought I would use it to remove the generator when I replaced the insulation. Great for loading heavy stuff in and out of the pickup, or moving coach tires around. Don't buy the 1000 pound one unless you are aware of the weight of it. You will need the 500 pound table to get the 1000 pound table into your truck!
Just heard back from Keith Risch at MOT. Here's his input:
" I do know Foretravel had issues with those radiators brand new,they would start leaking before they would leave nacogdoches. I was in service until 2002 and my team was changing at least 2 a week. I think the design was bad and the weight pulling down was a problem .Also if the bottom two rods holding the radiator stable were not adjusted properly,would put a twist in radiator."
I don't have one but would love to get a vibration gauge to see what the vibration is on one of these while running,if I ever have to
change mine I would get every rubber spacer new.
Wow. "2 a week". That backs up the statement by Atlas. I'm liking my U225's rear radiator setup much better.
Randy, could you post a few pictures of where the radiator is leaking? Might help with figuring out what needs to be changed.
I too agree that Atlas was upfront as they can be sued heavily by FT if that info they sent in earlier post was not true.
Johnh
Haven't been back up to coach since dropping off at Paul. Will be picking it up before the 15th so hope to get pics then. Radiator solution will have to wait until I can get it back up there sometime in March or April (having both knees replaced 1/18!)
What Paul told me by phone was " Leaking where core meets tank front side". More info when I get it.
So took some pictures. My coach does not have the cradle as in reply #41. I think I like that and will incorporate something simulate that will mount to bottom mount bolts on hanger. I also included some bottome pictures of the fans and the transmission cooler also hanging off the core of the radiator 65lbs. Not good in my opinion. Notice how the bottom plate is not attached to end of tank or supported in first photos. It is 1/8 inch thick plate and bent up on both sides. Last photo not my coach from reply 41 and marked up to identify proposed cradle
Scott
Just a fyi, Keith no longer works at MOT
Keith
That could be a bad end tank gasket. It could also be where the tubes meet the header which may be fixable with resoldering the tube end. Both are fixable without replacement.
Mike
Scott didn't have time to go to the coach today but looking at your pictures I would say that your rad frame is the same gagged of steel as on my rad frame. but you can see the reinforcement I would say that my cradle makes a strong frame I didn't think once about the strength
Rick is this a picture of your radiator viewing from the outside? I don't see the cradle in your recent pictures
Scott the fan and the fan guard are bolt to the cradle or frame of rad the cooler is bolted to a plate that is welded to two pipes that goes around the bottom of the engine
The picture is the outside view the air to air or after cooler and then hydraulic cooler and fuel cooler go in front and then the out side grill
So that gap identified is open to the ground on my coach. None of the steel identified in red exist on my coach nothing under the tanks front or rear
Photo five shows those cooler mounts tubes. Mine is attached to radiator shroud
That cooler hanging off the rad Is a lot of weight hanging off the radiator bouncing along the road that would put a lot of twisting on the radiator you can see my radiator has been reinforced and by moving the cooler had to be a big improvement
Wondering if the biggest difference is the engines in both coaches? Rick has an 8.3 and the one on Scott's is the M11. Will crawl under ours when the snow melts! Got 6 plus inches last night and it is cold here today! Brrrr!
The 2 engines have to be vibrating differently,may be the difference.
Well I'm just speculating. The transmission cooler (65 lbs)and all the lines hanging off the radiator core is problematic.
The Fans can induce vibration and should be supported better. No triangulation
No radiator core support is problematic.
Only support is the fan shroud
I have core support envy of Ricks setup both for the radiator and the trans cooler. And will resolve as soon as it gets warmer. Desert Rats dont fair well. 24 degrees this morning.
Scott
Yes making more work for me and adding weight to my FAT coach. Preventive maintenance sure beats waiting for a hook to show up and tow you home
So after a long conversation with a Paul Yasbeck here's my take...again from a non-mechanical owner.
Yes, up until 2002 the Atlas Radiator supplied to Foretravel's design, hung, unsupported in the coach with everything hanging from the tanks... hydraulic fans and, in the U320, the cooler for the retarder (our U270 has only the fans). The swinging weight supported only by the tank ends caused a multitude of failures. As Keith Risch reported, his team at the factory was replacing 2/week. Paul was at the factory store near Tampa then and reported the same failure rate and replacement.
Then, after 2002, according to Paul, Atlas redesigned the radiator to include a beam along the bottom and side plates connected to the beam to support the core. Yes, hydraulic fans (and cooler on U320) still hang on the core. Since that redesign most of the failures Paul has seen are due to dragging the rear end of the radiator (now lower due to the beam) on the ground as it is the lowest point on the rear of the coach. My leaks are at the front and back where the core meets the tank. He reports a low failure rate on the post-2002 redesign.
I'm picking the coach up this week since I'll be out of commission for a couple of months with replacing both my knees. A new radiator can't be delivered for nearly that long so I'll be thinking about my options. Living with the leak isn't an option since it nearly empties the overflow tank overnight.
Atlas' reply to my email is certainly curious since it appear to address the pre-2002 design. Surprising he would go off on Foretravel after he re-designed the radiator to deal with warranty issues.
Yikes I'm getting more paranoid' PO damaged the back tank dragging on my coach
I have scrape marks on the bottom of the pipes going around the bottom of my engine. I have scrape marks on them from rubbing on the ground somewhere they must be lower than the radiator I have no markings on my radiator just noticed it last week when I crawled under
I am beginning to appreciate the previous owners of our coach.
Someone has installed a really well constructed skid plate weldment under the engine, two very large heavy duty caster wheels under the back end of the chassis frame, and a large fan equipped transmission cooler, along with two large electric fans on the bumper side of our rear engine radiator.
Could always add rollers on the back, original owner had them put on at the factory and front skid plates. I know a lot of Wanderlodge's have them too.
With Nitehawk driving those are wheely rollers.
I looked at a Alpine that the back cap had been pushed up 2" from using rollers. Owner said it was normal.
Not hard pass on purchase. The front looks nice for a rack
I'd be very cautious about adding anything that decreases the already minimal ground clearance of engine overhang area. Had to do an emergency turnaround in a semi rough area, afterwards noted that the exhaust tip had been flattened from ground contact. Yikes! This was a 320 single axle.
100% agree the departure angle and clearance needs to be maintained. But reducing by a 1/4 inch and the additional weight gain is a acceptable loss IMO because of the better support and reliability gains. Long game. We've logged 20k miles since 6-20 and plan to continue at this rate. Preventive maintenance trumps costs and losses for me