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Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 05:51:21 pm

Title: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 05:51:21 pm
Today, running through all electrical items checks, I could not get my refrigerator or microwave powered on the inverter. Generator was off and batteries freshly charged.

Any trouble-shooting help will be appreciated. I tried to find this condition using Search, but did not find anything.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 12, 2022, 06:32:40 pm
What inverter?  Reset breakers on it???

Inverter output wired to sub-panel or directly from inverter to outlets?
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 06:38:38 pm
What inverter?  Reset breakers on it???

Inverter output wired to sub-panel or directly from inverter to outlets?
Brett, Inverter switching through Zantrex panel. I did not reset the breaker but will try that first thing tomorrow. I never use inverter power, so was not aware until today that none of the 110 appliances were working on inverter.

As to which inverter model, I do not recall, and will have to get the info off the inverter unit. I know it is original and 1500 watt, if that gives any hint as to the model/brand.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 12, 2022, 06:41:20 pm
Does the Xantrex panel merely control inverter operation or does 120 VAC output go through it.  Never seen the latter.

It is the 120 VAC output that you need to trace. 

What Xantrex model do you have?  Most have "pass through" feature so when on shore power or generator everything 120 VAC "downstream" of the inverter is automatically live from the "upstream" source.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: red tractor on March 12, 2022, 06:45:36 pm
Do you have a switch plate on the wall which is about 5 inches wide and 8 inches tall with a switch on it to choose what it will run?  I think that it might be a Pacs inverter if it is the original one.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 06:55:03 pm
Does the Xantrex panel merely control inverter operation or does 120 VAC output go through it.  Never seen the latter.

It is the 120 VAC output that you need to trace. 

What Xantrex model do you have?  Most have "pass through" feature so when on shore power or generator everything 120 VAC "downstream" of the inverter is automatically live from the "upstream" source.

I'm going to have to get that information in the morning if I cannot find my Zantrex manual this afternoon. I'll post a picture of the panel here, in case that will identify it.




Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 07:00:36 pm
I'm going to have to get that information in the morning if I cannot find my Zantrex manual this afternoon. I'll post a picture of the panel here, in case that will identify it.





Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 12, 2022, 07:13:11 pm
Ya, that is an odd reading on the panel.

50 amp on "power share" in means it has plenty of amps of 120 VAC to do everything.  Are you on a 50 amp connection and is voltage over 110VAC?

12.5 VDC to the battery is an issue, particularly with only 10 amps going in.

At 12.5 VDC on the house battery bank, the inverter/charger should be in BULK mode and voltage around 14.

And, turning the "inverter" off should have no effect on anything since the pass through feature of that inverter/charger will pass the 120 VAC through from shore power.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: red tractor on March 12, 2022, 07:16:36 pm
Looks like it has been upgraded from original.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 07:22:49 pm
What inverter?  Reset breakers on it???

Inverter output wired to sub-panel or directly from inverter to outlets?
I believe it is the Freedom 15D. Will confirm.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 07:24:32 pm
Ya, that is an odd reading on the panel.

50 amp in means it has plenty of amps of 120 VAC to do everything.  Are you on a 50 amp connection and is voltage over 110VAC?

12.5 VDC to the battery is an issue, particularly with only 10 amps going in.

At 12.5 VDC on the house battery bank, the inverter/charger should be in BULK mode and voltage around 14.
This pic was taken some time ago, not today; probably on either shore power or Gen.. I only posted it in the reply in the hope that it may help identify the inverter and panel type.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 12, 2022, 07:28:38 pm
This pic was taken some time ago, not today; probably on either shore power or Gen.. I only posted it in the reply in the hope that it may help identify the inverter and panel type.


OK, but those reading are/were still Wonky.

Please update us with the current readings when you get back to the coach (or just post another picture of the panel).
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 12, 2022, 07:36:28 pm

OK, but those reading are/were still Wonky.

Please update us with the current readings when you get back to the coach (or just post another picture of the panel).
Will do Brett. Part of the weirdness of the photo is that the inverter was on while on either shore power or Gen. Don't know why, but will get fresh info in the morning.

Many thanks again for the help.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 12, 2022, 08:58:01 pm
The OEM was a Taytronics 1500 watt inverter on our 1993 U300. It must weigh 80 lbs, is not very efficient, drops the voltage when switched on without anything running. Originally, there was a switch so you could go between the microwave and the rest of the coach. There was a button on the panel (to the right of the sink) that had to be pushed to turn it on and then the operation could be toggled. The changeover switch under the bed made the change from microwave to the rest of the coach. It operates on 24 volts. I changed the wires so my inverter operates all the coach outlets. I did make so changes so the other inverters operate some other outlets now. I can supply the schematic on the cover of the switch box and a photo of the wiring change I made to tie all the outlets together.

Pierce
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 13, 2022, 10:08:33 am
Don't know why, but will get fresh info in the morning.


No problem leaving the inverter on while on shore power.  It will just be in "stand by" mode until shore power is lost and will then "invert" to supply those circuits downstream of the inverter. 

It is NOT a good idea to leave the inverter turned on while a coach is in storage, as loss of shore power could cause the inverter to quickly drain the batteries even if nothing is turned on due to power it takes to be in stand by mode.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 13, 2022, 12:44:23 pm
No problem leaving the inverter on while on shore power.  It will just be in "stand by" mode until shore power is lost and will then "invert" to supply those circuits downstream of the inverter. 

It is NOT a good idea to leave the inverter turned on while a coach is in storage, as loss of shore power could cause the inverter to quickly drain the batteries even if nothing is turned on due to power it takes to be in stand by mode.

Good point. I believeI was told that and to just not leave inverter on when not being used.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Old Toolmaker on March 13, 2022, 01:20:25 pm
Will do Brett. Part of the weirdness of the photo is that the inverter was on while on either shore power or Gen. Don't know why, but will get fresh info in the morning.

Many thanks again for the help.
Randall Brink?  Those readings make perfect sense if the inverter is an inverter/charger and is currently charging the battery to which it is connected.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 13, 2022, 01:32:25 pm
No problem leaving the inverter on while on shore power.  It will just be in "stand by" mode until shore power is lost and will then "invert" to supply those circuits downstream of the inverter. 

It is NOT a good idea to leave the inverter turned on while a coach is in storage, as loss of shore power could cause the inverter to quickly drain the batteries even if nothing is turned on due to power it takes to be in stand by mode.

Brett, picture going up, the inverter make and model.

Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 13, 2022, 01:44:23 pm
Randall Brink?  Those readings make perfect sense if the inverter is an inverter/charger and is currently charging the battery to which it is connected.
I believe it was, with the power source to the inv/chg being Gen.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 13, 2022, 01:47:04 pm
The OEM was a Taytronics 1500 watt inverter on our 1993 U300. It must weigh 80 lbs, is not very efficient, drops the voltage when switched on without anything running. Originally, there was a switch so you could go between the microwave and the rest of the coach. There was a button on the panel (to the right of the sink) that had to be pushed to turn it on and then the operation could be toggled. The changeover switch under the bed made the change from microwave to the rest of the coach. It operates on 24 volts. I changed the wires so my inverter operates all the coach outlets. I did make so changes so the other inverters operate some other outlets now. I can supply the schematic on the cover of the switch box and a photo of the wiring change I made to tie all the outlets together.

Pierce
I posted a picture, below, of the installed inverter/charger. I also hunted for that switch you mentioned to no avail. But yet, after reading your post, it does not seem to make sense that the only inverter switch would be on the Zantrex panel. The hunt for additional switching continues.

Update: There is language in the Freedom manual about switching, seeming to point toward the "Link" control unit just under the Xantrex panel.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 13, 2022, 01:53:18 pm
Randall Brink?  Those readings make perfect sense if the inverter is an inverter/charger and is currently charging the battery to which it is connected.

If you are referring to the picture in post #6, I disagree. 

With AC power IN, and battery voltage reading of only 12.5 VDC and charge rate of only 10 amps, SOMETHING is wrong.

The charge amps should be near max for the charger section as it should be in bulk mode and trying to drive voltage up to bulk rate voltage of about 14 VDC. Even if in float mode, voltage is close to .7 VDC low.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Old Toolmaker on March 13, 2022, 04:54:29 pm
If you are referring to the picture in post #6, I disagree. 

With AC power IN, and battery voltage reading of only 12.5 VDC and charge rate of only 10 amps, SOMETHING is wrong.

The charge amps should be near max for the charger section as it should be in bulk mode and trying to drive voltage up to bulk rate voltage of about 14 VDC. Even if in float mode, voltage is close to .7 VDC low.

Brett, for the time being ignore the 10A reading, and everything else says CHARGE!  There are many reasons for the low charge rate one being that the charger may be in absorption mode which is around 12.6 volts, an idea that explains both the 12.5 and the 10A charge rate.  Going back to the photo, there are three battery symbols under the label Battery State with the led lit over the middle, so if we interpret the three pictures as very low, 80%, and fully charged we can guess that they represent Bulk, Absorption and Float.

https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=44184.0;attach=119912;image
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 13, 2022, 05:16:47 pm
If the Xantrex inverter/charger is programmed properly, absorption (lowest voltage) for either wet cell or AGM should be in the 13.2-13.5 range. 12.5, not so much.

BTW over the years on sailboats and motorhomes, the Xantrex programming changed from: inside inverter itself to remove remote from wall and set dip switches to programming from front of remote. 

Said another way, there is NO WAY that a properly operating charging device connected to 120 VAC would keep batteries at 12.5 VDC.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Old Toolmaker on March 13, 2022, 06:36:19 pm
If the Xantrex inverter/charger is programmed properly,

I'm sorry Brett, you are correct: Float 13.2, Absorption 13.6, and Bulk 14.4.  12.5 is in the mostly charged range and don't worry.

I keep looking for ways to not spend Randall's money.  Getting harder and harder every post.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 13, 2022, 07:06:15 pm
I'm sorry Brett, you are correct: Float 13.2, Absorption 13.6, and Bulk 14.4.  12.5 is in the mostly charged range and don't worry.

I keep looking for ways to not spend Randall's money.  Getting harder and harder every post.

You're right about that! Thanks.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: TGordon on March 13, 2022, 10:34:49 pm
If you are referring to the picture in post #6, I disagree. 

With AC power IN, and battery voltage reading of only 12.5 VDC and charge rate of only 10 amps, SOMETHING is wrong.

The charge amps should be near max for the charger section as it should be in bulk mode and trying to drive voltage up to bulk rate voltage of about 14 VDC. Even if in float mode, voltage is close to .7 VDC low.

I read the amp gauge differently, I see at least 10 amps but not 25 amps, there is 14 amp spread.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: wolfe10 on March 14, 2022, 08:36:53 am
I read the amp gauge differently, I see at least 10 amps but not 25 amps, there is 14 amp spread.

A very valid observation.

So, let's say the amp charge rate is 24 amps with voltage at 12.5 or maybe even 12.8.

Again assuming it has been properly programmed (battery bank size in amp-hrs, battery technology and ambient temperature unless optional battery temp sensor installed) 13.2 VDC is the very lowest float rate voltage acceptable, with absorption and bulk higher than that as well as higher at lower ambient temperatures.

That is why I suggested that something is wrong--the lower than float rate voltage would suggest that the charger section be at or close to max amp rate to bring up the batteries. The icons at the top accurately depict that the batteries are somewhat discharged, even though the charger section does have an external source of 120 VAC.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Old Toolmaker on March 14, 2022, 09:10:37 am
I agree with Brett on this one, TGordon, all the inverter display is showing is the instant battery voltage.  So I ask this: is there a separate house batter charger?  Or is the battery charger built into the inverter.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 14, 2022, 10:57:06 am
I agree with Brett on this one, TGordon, all the inverter display is showing is the instant battery voltage.  So I ask this: is there a separate house batter charger?  Or is the battery charger built into the inverter.
If it's OEM, there is a separate charger on the opposite side of the coach next to the wet compartment. They do fail. Ours did not have a stable float voltage. I read the Amazon reviews and went with the Progressive Dynamics charger/converter. +++

Pierce
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 14, 2022, 12:21:06 pm
I agree with Brett on this one, TGordon, all the inverter display is showing is the instant battery voltage.  So I ask this: is there a separate house batter charger?  Or is the battery charger built into the inverter.

Charger/inverter combi.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 14, 2022, 12:23:00 pm
If it's OEM, there is a separate charger on the opposite side of the coach next to the wet compartment. They do fail. Ours did not have a stable float voltage. I read the Amazon reviews and went with the Progressive Dynamics charger/converter. +++

Pierce
This one is a combination inverter charger, located in a forward bay away from the electrical bay.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Protech Racing on March 14, 2022, 01:11:22 pm
 Was this stock on the 89?  I dont think that I have any 115 V with out the gen or plugged in, on my 87-88 GV.
    I have not found any inverter, OE installed. 
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 14, 2022, 04:10:27 pm
Was this stock on the 89?  I dont think that I have any 115 V with out the gen or plugged in, on my 87-88 GV.
    I have not found any inverter, OE installed. 
FT installed equipment does indicate "75 Amp Converter-Charger" and separately, "1500 Watt Inverter" so perhaps the Xantrex combination Inverter/Charger was retrofitted.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 14, 2022, 04:14:02 pm
Further to all of the previous, I am posting a photo taken today, showing Xantrex panel, with no auxiliary power, batts only, inverter switch on, but no 110vac supplied to the coach accessories.

Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 14, 2022, 04:31:30 pm
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Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Protech Racing on March 14, 2022, 04:46:31 pm
FT installed equipment does indicate "75 Amp Converter-Charger" and separately, "1500 Watt Inverter" so perhaps the Xantrex combination Inverter/Charger was retrofitted.

Does anyone else have a 85-88 with the inverter?
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: RandallBrink on March 14, 2022, 07:00:22 pm
Xantrex manual says that this reading means the inverter is "inverting" though I am unable to explain why the display is showing "Incoming AC Breaker Amps" at 50 with no Gen or shore power, as well as not a single amp of AC available to lights, microwave panel, etc.
Title: Re: Operating 110vac Items on Inverter
Post by: Old Toolmaker on March 14, 2022, 07:49:17 pm
(1) Xantrex manual says that this reading means the inverter is "inverting"

(2) though I am unable to explain why the display is showing "Incoming AC Breaker Amps" at 50 with no Gen or shore power, as well as not a single amp of AC available to lights, microwave panel, etc.


(1) So can you warm up your cheese dog in the microwave?

(2) Because that's what the system is set to expect the next time shore power or the generator magically appears?  To the system, AC is AC, it has no way of knowing how much AC is available unless you tell the system.