The exhaust manifold on my ISC 8.3 is leaking at #4 cylinder and broken all the way around at 2and3. Boost is still 22-23 lbs a full throttle. Question is will it cause damage ( cylinder head, pistons) to drive it 700 miles or so, where I can do the work myself, or 200 miles where I can drop it off where I can leave it for 2-3 weeks and they will " work it in" I have used the folks before, but who knows?
Diesels have no vacuum unlike a gas engine which might suck in cold air and warp a valve. I wouldn't hesitate to drive it home but DWMYH
Not good. The escaping gas can cut/erode into base metal and the leaking exhaust can damage anything it comes in contact with. I would always recommend repairing. If it was my personal rig I might cover crack with stainless and secure in place with band clamps. There may be a hi temperature epoxy but it's going to fail. Also any additional heat shielding will help. Sorry to hear this. Lower power setting will help. Factory replacement parts for me. Once all bolts are removed tap out to clean threads and I would use good nickel anti seize during assembly. A lot can be lost in attempting to baby it back home. Good luck Be safe
Scott
How many miles on that header and is it one piece?
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I had a similar experience that went undetected for a good 1000 miles on an ISL400. Both of the above comments are accurate in my experience. My performance wasn't noticeably affected except in retrospect... a very slight loss of mpg and boost. What did suffer were a number of plastic electrical and mechanical components in the engine compartment from the escaping hot gas. If you can get the hot gas leak controlled, then I wouldn't hesitate to drive it a longer distance. Shielding is a great help, but just the general increase in compartment temperature melted a number of wires and relays remote from direct exhaust gas flow. No failures but a "wilted" appearance. I ultimately replaced a lot of items. If you cannot control the HEAT, then I'd favor tearing it down and replacing the manifold ASAP. You could try and get the heat mitigated, and check engine room spots every couple of hours in route with an IR temp gun. Just get a baseline established for the spots you're checking after you're satisfied the leak is as good as you can get it. Shielding, exhaust heat wrap with stainless clamps, heat resistant epoxy and frequent checks will probably get you to your destination safely. You are way ahead of me having identified the problem early. Mine cooked unmitigated for over 1000 miles. I used a Cummins replacement manifold FWIW.
Agree with Hach about the heat,not sure how it will erode something other then the manifold that's already broken,if you can figure out how to keep the heat down go for it,you will do a better and less expensive job yourself.Now may also be the time to replace the turbo as it will have to be removed.
Bruce,
Do you have any idea as to how far you have driven with it like this? If you have to drive 200 miles to a repair shop if you can control the heat with some heat shields I would ease on the other 500 so I could DIY. A pair of tin snips, a couple of soup cans, and bailing wire will make a rustic hot gas redirector.
Mike
I would recommend
empty beer cans...at least a 6-pack, but more is better. :thumbsup:
2-3 weeks? The Mexicans in Mazatlan did mine in 5 hours and 500 bucks. Just sayin.
Looks like the JB weld repair tape and on to where I will replace the manifold.
Please post how it works out. I dont have a lot of faith in it but worth a try. Make a few extra inspection stops. I carry a large halon fire extinguisher.
Scott
With all the trouble 8.3 exhaust manifolds have, you would think someone would cast up a modern manifold or make it in 2 or 3 pieces like others do so it can expand without cracking or bending the studs. Here is what a one piece big diesel manifold should look like.
Pierce
My manifold is 2 piece. It does seem like today's world manifolds could be made to not warp and crack.
Sure like the ISM better. Same bolt fatiguing issues unfortunately.
Photo 2 is of the ISX even better
Scott,
The manifold foto I posted does not have any holes for studs, just a space for a stud and big washer to take the expansion between each cylinder. Cummings probably should have gone horizontal with the studs rather than vertical.
How about stainless studs with no-seize?
Pierce
My ISM has horizontal studs. Not sure I have ever seen vertical studs on a diesel
Hate Stainless bolts. Too many severe heat cycles. They become softer and gaule. Good hi carbon steel and good nickel anti seize. Yes the bolts on the turbo will be quite difficult to remove at end of life, but they are still there doing their job. Ive changed hundreds of turbo chargers with 1600 hours to 2600 hours and there is a difference with the added 1000 hours. Bolt head will reduce in size from erosion and heat cycles. Never once did I have to torch off a bolt but wanted too several times. Did split many a nut to relax enough to remove. Hard pull on our long grades and these components go from 400 degrees to upward of 1700 in isolated areas. Hard pass on the stainless for me.
Lots of different formulations for stainless out there and lots of stainless kits available. In checking on several forums, many have your opinion and the other half love them. I do know Mercedes has used all stainless manifolds including the rest of the exhaust system including the fasteners for holding everything together for many years in their gasoline cars. My old 300SD diesel has cast iron but everything else is stainless. I've never seen a problem on any part of a Mercedes exhaust system except for cat failures.
Pierce
I agree to install what the manufacturer engineered for their application. Odd they would be using Caterpillar parts on it and have them fail. Guess this is why I've always stayed away from Mercedes and Caterpillar products. DWMYH. If it stays together till overhaul that is all i ask. Ive been meaning to order a set of hardware for my exhaust just to time change and upgrade anti seize. Will plan for it for next winter.
Getting back on subject,
Bruce if you can also get some Kroil or even better mouse milk and start the soaking process it will aid in removal. Especially the broken off bolts.
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Scott
Think Pierce meant catalytic converter not Cat part.
MBZ engines and transmissions are pretty bulletproof. Almost 450K on our 300SD and never been apart including the water pump and alternator. Just several batteries and lots of brake pads. The ML 5 and 7 speeds are arguably seen as the best ever auto trans made and found on some Jeep 4WD products and others. The electrics in general are not up to Toyota standards, especially on the Alabama vehicles. Bosch alternators are also great. Single wire and to change brushes, regulator and diodes all in one tiny unit. You just need a flat bladed screwdriver and don't even have to loosen the drive belt. A two minute change to get everything R&R.
CAT has made a lot of good engines. The parts just cost a lot. As I remember, as Progress Rail, CAT controls EMD (railroad diesels) with the ultra reliable EMD-710 engine used all around the world. EMD 710 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_710)
Pierce
Cat makes a lot off great engines but they got out of the highway engines a longtime
ago.
We'll field engineering done, JB weld repair kit, trusty beer can/with clamps for reinforcement, custom heat shield to protect air piping and oil lines. Got 4 of the bolts to Move so far. Only got toMake 700 miles.
Looks terrific. All the best to you, and safe travels.
I wonder , does ATS in Utah make a 2 piece manifold for the 8.3? I have theirs on my 5.9 in my pickup
Looks good Bruce, keep your foot out of it to keep exhaust temps down.
What is ATS in Utah,unless automated truck simulations makes manifolds?
Products > All Products > Intake / Exhaust Manifolds (https://www.atsdiesel.com/products/all-products/intake-exhaust-manifolds?page=1)
So far everything running good,field repair seems to be holding.
Ran 350 miles, boost back to 26-28 lbs at WOT, hottest I saw the manifold get was 600°. Looks like the JB weld material worked/ with beer can back up.
Bruce,
Was that TWO beers-- one for the manifold and one for your???
WAIT-- that would be two beers for you, as I am certain you emptied the beer before donating it to the exhaust manifold.
It was 2 beer jury rig 😎🍺
Yup, that was my take as well.
Gotta love RV math!
Ran 250 miles today setting all kinds of crazy codes, but running perfect. Engine speed, several invalid entries, injector driver codes.
Oh well fix the manifold first and go from there. Got 250 more to go. 😬🍺
That's weird Didn't have those codes prior?
Did before I field repaired it, then ran great 350 miles. Still running great getting 8.9 mpg pulling the Jeep. Repair looks to be holding ok.
We'll made it 750 miles. Coach ran great, but setting a bunch of odd codes. One thing at a time exhaust comes apart tomorrow, we'll see what we get into.
Glad you made it
Should have the old manifold out by tomorrow 4 more stubborn bolts and turbo oil return
Mouse milk is your friend
Glad you got it home.
Got everything disassembled, no broken bolts. Did find the oil line rubbed a hole in the wastegate actuator. I expect that will be fun to find.
It looks like steel, could it be welded.
Have not heard of that being successful because of the extreme conditions/heat cycles seen by the exhaust manifold.
Like Bruce, I have done this replacement on a 2003 ISL. Same break.
Also had to pull, machine and reinstall the exhaust manifold on our Caterpillar engine due to warpage.
Just not that uncommon an issue. I suspect (no statistics on it) that the rear engine instead of the front engine where there is ample air flow adds to the likelihood of failure.
I replaced my wastegate actuator years ago because of a bad internal diaphragm. Call Cummins with engine serial number and go from there. Seems to be many sources online.
Yep, just got to find the right one. This one is set at 1.92 bar or just shy of 29 psi.
Welding the cast manifold I agree no joy. The actuator housing is mild steel and if you keep welding temperature and duration limited its quite repairable, but I still would prefer to replace with a fresh component. My luck 2k miles down the road it fails and your in there doing it again.
Scott
Bruce, have you thought about using an epoxy to fix wastegate hole
Johnh
I have John. If I can't find one I will repair it. I checked the diaphragm and it's good.
Any theories on what would cause the exhaust manifold to break cleanly apart like that? It's seemingly pretty stout material, so I would think not too easy to snap in half.
Perhaps caused by unequal torque applied to the mounting points, so the manifold is under constant stress. Add to that the repeated heating and cooling cycles. I can't see vibration being a factor, cuz the manifold doesn't normally "move around".
Or, is it a flaw in the casting. I know nothing about metallurgy, so I'm clueless...but also curious.
Google says one theory is the weight of the turbo assembly hanging on the manifold is too much stress?
Also, anybody ever used Kroil? I'm just filing away pertinent info for possible future projects.
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Used Kroil for years in the oilfield,will try mouse milk next,the reviews state it beats Kroil.
And homemade works equally well/better. 50/50 ATF/acetone.
Cast iron parts just dont have a permanent life unlike ductle iron. Much less production costs and reasonable life make it a good product all in all. Lots of heat cycles and the weak point will always present itself eventually.
Scott
Once you have worked years around turbo charged exhaust systems you will recognize the benefits of the Mouse Milk. Stupid name , magical product. Best applied while parts are at operating temperature. Cooling effect draws it in even better. Yes it is flammable but less than acetone.
Scott
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Gotta love that beer can tech.....I do hope you drank it before using it!!
Got the parts ordered, manifolds 214.00 Cummins wanted 1100.00, bolts spacers and gaskets 190.00, wastegate actuator 141.00 ( holset) part. We'll see how it goes together when it gets here
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For those who have never used this it works really good, the only caveat is when using always wear rubber globes and don't get it on you!
Chris
Chris Lang, got it on order?👍
Mr. bbeane, What gave the broken exhaust manifold away? A typical exhaust leaking sound?? Thanks for the info. Mike
I can honestly say there were several co employees that refused to use the nickel anti seize and I got to the point that if I was following up on one of there installations I knew before I ever got started I would be in for a battle. I also made it a point when ever possible to assign them there own prior work. Eventually it made sense to them what a difference it made. One comes apart and one is fused together never to separate till complete failure of the bolt. Chris is correct 100% IMO.
Scott
A couple of things. I do a pretty good check over before startup every travel day noticed a little soot around the turbo thought I had a bad gasket. Once we left all kinds of crazy engine codes, and my Silverleaf indicated lower than normal boost pressure. So a closer inspection it was kind of hard to see with all the turbo plumbing in the way. I replaced some engine sensors last summer, in 12k mile have no check engine lights. So I'm going to assume that between the broken manifold and the hole in the wastegate actuator it was causing some conflicting signals to the ECM. We'll see when I get things back together.
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Pierce
If you live in the deep south, using nickel antisieze is as important as remembering to wear ones underwear!!
everything rusts down here. every bolt on every situation gets it in my shop. Even tiny #8/10 screws.
My last 10 years was on production platforms in the gulf,guess what we used on every nut and bolt.
New aftermarket manifold is much more robust than the original.
Please post links and part numbers when you have it on and tested. Probably one in my future.
Used Heavy Duty Truck Parts | Quality Semi Truck Salvage (https://www.vanderhaags.com/) 1-888-940-5030 is where I got the manifold
Considering the times were in in.....excellent looking part at a fair price. Aftermarket is always cheaper than OEM.
Got everything back together. Everything went smoothly, no leaks. Took about 4 hours.
That's pretty fast. Congratulations on diagnosis, limp home, removal, sourcing parts, and installation. That's an impressive resolution.
Well done Bud ^.^d
Bruce did all the hardware remove okay? Nice to have this put behind you. Looks good.
Scott
Bruce, (or some other Forum member)
Why do they use those long spacer tubes on the manifold bolts? Why not just use shorter bolts? Just curious...
They keep the bolt tight during heating and cooling cycles and prevent breaking the bolts when the exhaust manifold expands.
Yes ride went well, no CK engine lights. Boost seemed a little low 20-21 lbs, however that's on flat ground, and the coach is not pulling the Jeep. New turbo actuator is holset 3533135,a direct cross from Cummins number, supposed to be set at 34 lbs.
Bruce,since the new manifold was beefier were the exhaust passages the same size as the old one?
Nice job Bruce!
appears they are the same diameter according to the gaskets
The longer bolt doesn't stretch in one small section, but over the length of the bolt making a much longer life hardware in such extreme environments
yes everything came apart and went back together just fine nothing broke off or stripped
Good to hear. Glad to see you replaced hardware. So I understand it came with a lifetime warranty on installation. Broken off flush exhaust hardware is no fun at all. But I've made a lot of money over the years removing them :)
Scott