Hey Folks!
I am sure this topic has been asked several times over but I could not find he thread I wanted. I have always ben a toy hauler 5th wheel guy but as the family grows, I want a better way to travel. After doing tons and tons of research and narrowed it down to a CC, Monaco or Foretravel. After looking at several coaches and reading all of your posts as well as other Brand related sites I have decided a Foretravel is what I am seeking out. I am looking at 2000-2006 models, 40' or less, Tag axle preferred, ISM 450 (would go ISL 400 on a shorter coach). I am a heavy Diesel mechanic as well as commercial driver so I can do almost any powertrain/chassis repair, and Maintenance. My question to all of the Veteran Foretravel owners is would you consider buying a coach with 150k-200k Miles already on it? My budget is right at $100k. I have solid confidence in the powertrain at that usage level as long as it has been maintained but it is the other systems that I have concern about? Cabinets, windows, Plumbing, Roof a/c units, refrigerator, Aqhahot, slide bladders wiring and so on. I am coming from the toyhauler market and even brand new they are compete Junk no matter what the brand so I may be jaded in general. I really want a Foretravel and think it is the best fit for me, but am i looking at getting myself into the wrong end of their life expectancy? Obviously it all depends on how it was treated by previous owners, but how may of you are rolling around in 17 year old or older coaches with 250-300k on the clock? I would expect to only put 3-5 k a year on it for the next 10 years and then after I retire I am sure that will go way up. Thank you in advance!!
Buy a 2000 or 2001 single slide - no tag needed in those years for up to 40' length -
tags are nice - but reduce storage
the 2000 has no smog devices on the 450 Cummings, not sure the 2001
ALmost better to buy a coach with use (miles) than a "hanger queen" - I just sold mine via MOT (Motorhomes of Texas, check out their web site Motorhome Dealer In Nacogdoches, TX | Motorhomes of Texas (http://www.motorhomesoftexas.com) for used Foretravels) at 170,000 miles and had much interest
the used price guides like NADA dont use mileage to determine value on Diesel pushers. The drive trains on our Foretravels are good for 500,000 - 1,000,000 miles with proper care. They can cost you money (allison 6 speed and 450 ISL not cheap to overhaul) but properly cared fo , that should be the least of your concerns when buying a Foretravel
if you use the "search" function on the forum, Pre-Buy inspection and all sorts of things will come up with a properly worded search
Good luck!
Good coaches but be aware of the bulkhead corrosion possibility. Models with that type of frame will have some rust but some will have a lot. Get up to speed on how to inspect so you don't get stuck. I would never buy a northern coach. If you are a mechanic, you can probably use a wire feed. There is no rust proofing, paint, etc so the first mud puddle you drive through starts the rust process.
As a diesel mechanic, you are probably aware a shop will nick you $30K to $40K for any kind of internal engine problem. Lots of owners have done majors on theirs at a tiny fraction of the cost.
Fuel and emission systems will have more problems on the later coaches. Mechanical engines the least trouble. ECU failures while not that common can still strand you and a small defect can ruin an ECU or injection pump.
Hanger queens may not have the corrosion problem the higher mileage coaches have. Case by case.
A lot of this applies to CC, Monaco etc.
Some years had more problems than others. Find that out first.
Ours has been trouble free since we purchased it in 2008. A complete inspection with an owner of the same model will increase your chances of a lower maintenance coach.
Don't expect the chassis build quality of a top commercial bus conversion. It's not going to happen. But the price is less.
Pierce
Emmett, sent you a PM
Mine has 235k on the clock and runs like a champ.. Id do it twice... Good bones equals happy life.
I wouldn't think twice about it if it's a knowledgeable seller. Bought mine with 45k on the clock and it has had plenty of its own issues from being on the other end of the spectrum.
The reason I am looking for a Tag is because I will be towing an enclosed trailer with me most of the time and I don't want to load the Drive axle to its max, I live in the western mountains and everywhere I go demands I drive over a mountain pass, so extra brakes is nice as well. I Have been looking at MOT coaches for sure. The Cummins ISL and ISM should be emission free until 2008 Model, might have an EGR system but that would be the extent of it.
Having been a buyer for lots of different types of vehicles, I would take anything a seller says with a grain of salt. Too much of a chance of missing some vital information. Nothing like having a sharp owner of the same model inspect it with you. Even if you have to fly someone in, it's cheap insurance.
Naturally, if it's an early coach that's in the $15K to $25K range, you have less to lose but a $100K investment is a lot of $$ to trust the word of a seller. Everyone I know does a pre-buy inspection on aircraft and most also have a boat surveyed by someone in the business. Otherwise, you better be good at counting fingers after shaking hands.
Pierce
The mileage wouldn't bother me. My coach has almost 150 k. It's how it has been serviced and
up graded. The mileage really only maters for the drivetrain, the other things you have mentioned,
how much have they been used and age look after.
The foretravel coaches are self alluring. Good brakes, outboard air bags. Engine transmission packages. I too plan to fix whatever comes up, but Im not a heavy diesel mechanic by trade. Ive come to the conclusion weather it is used or parked the almost same amount of problems will accure. Its a 20 year old vehicle. Foretravel is rated by me as a poor in regards to paints and primers on the undercarriage. Corrosion is a issue to be concerned with. I pretty much worked myself into a corner by deleting coaches I didnt want and what I would be willing to spend. U320 36 footer was what I was looking for and refused to settle for anything less. My steadfast views have somewhat changed because I've learned 4 or six feet in the big scheme is manageable. Our 3610 has only needed everything in regards to routine maintenance, but it had not moved since 2007 either. Everything requires maintenance and personally I figured that it would from the start. I think any 20 year old vehicle will be needy for awhile. We have had very few interior issues. They are built like a tank. A dated tank though. I couldnt be happier and am very glad we did purchase. Seems am always working on something around the house and the coach mechanically had my undivided attention for way too long. The mileage would not spook me at all
Long year (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42605.0)
Scott
As far as purchasing a coach from MOT, do they sell quality used vehicles? Do they inspect and service coaches before offering to sell or at least be tranparent with the results to the new owner?
If so, have faith, find your FT and buy it. I believe you are going to be just fine.
Good luck.
My point isn't to trust the seller but rather that there is a big difference between a coach owned by an informed individual and one that is oblivious to the preventative maintenance these coaches need.
Some of the factors I look for are the reasons the coach is being sold. Did the owner trade up or age above their comfort level. I have always bought used whether car, truck, boat M/C or motorhome. Cars mileage matters depending on manufacturer. A coach's mileage would only affect the price to me. I bought a 100k coach and the owners personal life mandated a sale. Like you I am a retired heavy equipment repairman and a class A truck driver. I have not had to spend for any repairs other than having the HWH box and steering box rebuilt.
We had a non tag on our '98 U320 and towed a 24 foot enclosed tri axle trailer all over the USA. No issues and we were loaded. I would not be afraid of high mileage, low mileage scares me. If a coach is well cared for you will get a great buy. The 450 is a monster coupled to a great Allison tranny. No regrets!
Emmet I would watch Foretravel group on Facebook as well as classifieds here and probably MOT 3rd. Even with your mechanical back ground I would get a qualified inspector inspect the rig if anyway possible.
Ours has 240K and going strong,they are few and far between but with your background look for one in need of a engine rebuild.
We purchased ours in 2008 with just under 60K on it. It had been sitting outside for over two years and needed batteries. After new engine batteries, we fired it up and drove it home across the U.S. with only a belt failure. Since then, one OEM airbag leak and a water pump relay failure. Other little stuff but as trouble free as an RV can be. Our cars use more oil than it does.
Pierce
Back to your original question pertaining to Cabinets, windows, Plumbing, Roof a/c units, refrigerator, Aqhahot, slide bladders wiring and so on.
This is what I've had to do on my 2001 3610
1 cabinets are well made but will need new gas struts. Timed out.
2. Windows. Well the double pane divider is also at the end of its life and will eventually need repair . Search snaking windows. Ive had a couple and since working on them have devised a plan to replace all my flat glass. I found any good residential window shop can make the replacement tempered glass and at that point you can get the tint you want and also get good Low UV and E glass
Window seals DIY (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40588.0)
3. both my roof AC units needed to have a service port brazed into them and have both been recharged with Freon. Time to change start Capacitor's too. They are old and the plastic tops will eventually need replacement.
4 refrigerator PITA. Ive worked it and spent a lot on it and eventually when we add solar will replace with a residential fridge
Dometic RM 1282 cooling issues (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42673.0)
5 Aqua hot. Well my had froze and I figured that going. In. Had to rebuild it. Big job but I really do like it now.
Found my leak U320 Aqua hot (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40885.0)
6. slide bladder yep its a 20 year old rubber product and will need replacement
Living room slide bladder DIY (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42225.0)
2000, 2001 slide delamination (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=44082.0)
7.wiring is well done. Non issue
Other notable item will be engine radiator fan controller
Hydraulic fan controller DIY (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=41024.0)
. generator end bearing should be replaced. It will also need a start capacitor for the cooling fan. 2003 slides are nicer I think and delamination issues were resolve by 2002. I think.
Im very happy with were we are at with the coach but it was a long year sorting out everything for sure. It makes up for this in many ways, but still has been a full time job. I went into this with my eyes wide open and there was very few surprises. The coach I have now in my opinion is outstanding and if It was on the market. I wouldnt be able to afford it. So for me it was a great deal and would repeat again. Knowing what I know now I would of spent the money I spent on the fridge toward solar
I aways trust the seller; first buy the seller, then the Foretravel. If I can't trust the seller I am not buying the Foretravel.
I purchased my first FT in 2 hours and the second one in 55 minutes.
I sold my wife's car (2011 BMW 335D) last wedensday in 30 minutes.
I am aware there are Foretravel owners on this form, purchased from each other and they are still friends :-)
Everyone operates different.
Good luck.
We bought a 99 with 45,000 on it in decent condition, I am very handy but not "diesel mechanic" handy unlike some of the forum members. We replaced everything that needed replacement and lots of things that would need replacement, air bags, shocks, fuel lines, belts, steering box (damaged by a mechanic) etc, etc.
The most costly expenses were the labor charges on the "mechanic" stuff, which your skills would negate.
Other costs were small by comparison, window glass, and lots of small stuff.
Our coach is now in really great condition, it runs like a champ, driving is relaxing, sitting under the awning with a cold beer, more relaxing!
The engine and generator are both very accessible unlike other brands of diesel pusher. They were all built to a set of blue prints which helps, if you have the manuals there are wiring diagrams for the numbered wires.
The Agua hot should be a piece of cake for you and your skill set! Everyone said get a coach with Aqua Hot: should have.
Most things are accessible, the coach interior is screwed together and not stapled in place like cheap RV's which makes "exploration" much easier.
Good luck on your search, get a pre purchase inspection: more than worth the money.
Regarding the systems other than the engine/drivetrain, you should expect to have to repair or replace some systems on a coach in the age and mileage range you are considering. We purchased our 36' 2004 U270 with a little over 100K miles in 2019, and since then I have done the following major repairs:
- Roof AC units. The rear one went out the second summer we had the coach. It might have been repairable, but I decided that fifteen years was at or near the end of its life, so I replaced both. Hopefully good for another fifteen years.
- Shocks and air bags. The air bags were showing wear. Some might have left them, and they might have lasted years, but I felt more comfortable with new ones. Replaced the shocks at the same time with better quality Konis just because of the age.
- Alternator. Died on the road. Replaced with rebuilt.
- Level system control module. Failed and replaced.
- Dometic refrigerator. Quit cooling, leaked refrigerant. Replaced cooling unit with Amish built unit.
- Batteries. House batteries were eight years old and probably near end of life. Upgraded to lithium and added solar. Engine batteries about ten years old, wouldn't hold a charge. Replaced.
- Tires eight years old this past winter. Showed some slight sidewall cracking, probably would have been fine for a couple more years. Replaced for peace of mind.
- Right now I have a leaking slide synchronization cylinder that will need repair/replacement soon.
We also have done a few other minor repairs/replacements, like window shades, cabinet latches and struts, faucet cartridge, etc. We have done all repairs ourselves except for AC units, level system module, and tires. You might get a coach and have none of the above issues, but almost certainly you will have some issues. I have absolutely no regrets. Any new or fairly new coach we could have afforded would have cost as much or more than our Foretravel even with the repairs we have done included and would not have been nearly as well built and engineered as the Foretravel. As long as you understand that you will likely have to do some repairs on an older coach and can do much of the work yourself, I don't think you can do better for the money. Now, if you can happen to find an older coach with many of the systems already upgraded you might be even better off.
With the budget Emmet has to work with I wouldn't buy a coach that needs a engine rebuild David. He has enough money to avoid that headache. I see where your coming from but who wants the head ache when you can afford not to. For that money I would hope to put license on it , fuel in it and get out my road map.
You mention 3 brands that you have considered. Two of those brands are out of business and eventually made by the same manufacturer. Beaver, CC and Monaco were great in there day but now there is no factory support, only support from old CC employees that service old coaches in Oregon out of there shop, with left over parts. This alone would be a big turn off for me. Nothing like having a manufacturer in business especially one that still supplies original parts and knowledgeable service people.
MANY of the parts that WILL require service or replacement are made by third party suppliers so it does not matter what brand coach you buy you will be buying many of the replacement parts from the same suppliers.
As a Diesel mechanic and a CDL -A- holder you know diesels. You know that the Cummins and Allison drive-train are good for more miles than you will ever put on them. As long as they are maintained you don't have a big worry in that area. Look at the U320 or Phoenix models for the larger Cummins and Allison.
It gets down to the body and interior construction. The Foretravel, Beaver, CC and Monaco are probably equal in this regard with older model Beaver, CC and Monaco's having there own chassis as does the Foretravel. All three at some point decided to outsource there chassis manufacturing. If you consider a certain model year you should research who made that chassis.
All that considered I would chose the coach that has an active factory still in business, the Foretravel.
Find a coach, find a QUALIFIED inspector and expect to put some money into it.
The general rule around here is have at least $10,000+ in reserve after the sale to cover the things that everybody missed.
No matter what you buy, it will never meet all your requirements and tastes.
Limit your initial output and plan on the mods you will want to do.
Nice thing about these coaches is the extremely hardy construction that survives and thrives with time.
Some things must pass inspection, like:
1. NO LEAKS
2. Good paint
3. ALL appliances work.
4. NOTHING is in need of immediate repair or replacement.
5. "DATED" is OK as long as it works for now.
6. Immediately ready to drive.
7. NO body damage or RUST!!!
8. Drive train must be free of leaks and evidence of good maintenance practices/records evident
Dr. Emmett Brown,
I have been wanting a Flux Capacitor since 1985. Can you help me acquire one, new or used will be fine.
Tim
P.S. Welcome to the world of Foretravel.
21.1 Gigawatts!!!
Thank you everybody for the input, I am definitely looking for a U320, I have my eye on one at MOT with 191k miles on it and that is what originally started my post. I Had looked at a 38' 2005 Monaco Dynasty tag with only 14k miles on it from the original owner. I know from my profession that machines don't like to sit, but I also no that machines used too much without proper care are in the same category. I was looking for that sweet spot. I like the mid 2000's because it seems to be the best build coach that remained simple, easy to work on and before emission's and multiplex with modules. I am a good ol fashioned fuse, relay single run wiring kinda guy. I am also concerned that with the state of inflation and the impending doom. From experience does this group feel that the used fortravel market is artificially inflated right now? Being that I just got into the market I have no reference of past pricing and enough coaches have sold in the last 24 months that I feel NADA is reflecting inflated values. I am ok with spending the money if the value is there, but don't want to be a victim of buying at the wrong time.
I also like the 336 Nimbus platform but they seem to be just out of my price range. I Have my eye on a 2000 36' U320 on Rvtrader because I love big power in a smaller platform but I feel the price is too high
https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2000-Foretravel-U320+3610-5022068133
If I was a bet'n man I would wager that the RV industry is headed for a huge slump.
If one doesn't sell during a down market then your not hurt. Your probably younger than myself but I could waste valuable riding time waiting on what I think is a favorable market. A motor home is not a good investment as far as investments go but a heck of a lot more enjoyable to a road runner than a stock folder. Everyone needs to do what feels better.
Price inflated or deflated? You are probably getting a better build no matter what you buy compared to the overpriced new mass produced units. The price for the coaches rarely reflects all the improvements some owners have made.
If you are happy with it and the price is good for your wallet go for it, you will always find a cheaper one that may have bulk head issues and never been worked on since it was sold. Equally you will find more expensive coaches for sale and they will make you feel good about the price you are paying.
Either way, you are buying a quality (older) coach for less than the price of a 28 ft class C motorhome.
Good luck with your search!
Sounds quite promising, I could not say it is over priced, others may.
I read the description on that : " 130K miles on the engine ...... Winshield..... New residential Fridge..... New Siverleaf setup 8" ...
..... exterior body is very shiny ... exterior Decals replaced with painted Graphics .... Foretravel replacement windows (8 total) New awning Topper for the slideout ... LED headlamps ... lithium batteries for the house with W solar panels ... house ACs (2 of them) with newer Thermostat .... 2019 AGM Coach batteries 2019 Michelin Tires Newer slideout bladder (heavy duty) New steering box All required services up to date This coach needs nothing and is ready to go"
If you can verify all that and it moves you. Sounds like a good one, from internet screen view :-)
Too much IMO. Dont get frustrated. They are out there but YOU have to find one, and find the right one. Took me over a year
Scott
https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/2001-Foretravel-U320+3610-5022588718
I don't think this is the engine you want but maybe for the right one? This a great deal IMO and I doubt it will last
Its a ISM 10.8L and. It has independent front suspension. That's what Im talking about .. good find
Nice price :-) It should find a new home fast.
Thanks Scott for educating, looks like that is the M11 which is what he wants!
I still have my feed on from when I was searching last year, so this came across this morning. Showed it to the wife in case we wanted to do something, we like that long couch, but we are happy with no slides.
On that coach most folks would be concerned over the slide bladder replacement (and plan for it's replacement) but with the age and mileage (mostly age) you need to also budget for upper and lower A frame bushings in the IFS.
Mike
So Jason the I think 1997ish maybe 1996 had the M11. That coach has the electronic common rail fuel injection. ISM 10.8L Very few failures its also is mated up to a 4060 Allison transmission also very few failures. Basically trash truck running gear. Cummins rated that engine for million miles in service. The ISC 8.3Land later the ISL 8.9L are similar to what you have in your coach and were rated for 1/2 million miles. Not saying they wouldn't do more or less, just what they were expected to live. My Dodge truck has the ISB 5.9&6.7L and was expected to give a 1/4 million service. There is a downside to the ISM in probably 1 mpg hit for its larger displacement and it's additional weight penally. But boy do they run strong.
Scott
Back in the day, I wouldn't buy a farm truck to pull over the road grain trailers unless they had a couple a hundred thousand miles on them. I wanted the bugs worked out of them. When we bought our coach, they send a picture of the engine and I saw it was a red top Cummins. I was pretty much sold. Best engine Cummins ever made in my limited opinion........ I have a 1997 Peterbilt with the same engine. It ran for 1.3 million miles before I replaced it...... One tough engine.
If you purchase a Nimbus, you get the baby Aqua Hot vs the big Aqua Hot that comes in all U320s. That and the ISM coupled to the 4060R Allison is a winner for me.
The big Aqua Hot is 3 times more capacity vs the baby Aqua Hot, hence my preference..
Good info! These are the things I am learning from the group as the thread goes on, my wife like the couch layout in the Nimbus and that is realy the only thing that stands out to me. I would prefer an ISM450 over the ISL as well as the larger Alison. Both good engines but the ISM is more of a severe duty architecture and I plan on running its socks off for 20 more years
Do some research on side wall delaminating on the Nimbus. I'm not certain of the model years but It's an issue that can easily and usually does cost $30,000.00 to repair and that was several years ago. You can bet it's gone up.Again, not all Nimbus year models but certainly worth you researching to find out.
Unless that slide out has had the delay issue fixed you may have an issue with it as well as the bulkhead for that generation coach
@Emmett Brown check out MOT. They have some new listings that check all of your boxes. You can always low ball and see what happens. After an inspection of course.
I have been trying to contact that seller since it was posted with no results, super frustrating!