Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Zach on November 15, 2022, 11:39:13 am
Title: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on November 15, 2022, 11:39:13 am
My never-ending conquest of maintaining and fixing my aqua hot so that it runs everytime without issue has led me down many rabbit holes. Throw this part at it and this part. Failure to fire is caused by this and that..
What has been done so far: Filter/nozzle and cleaning Burner chamber following melting of the swirler Replaced exhaust with 2 inch exhaust replaced nozzle again Fuel lines replaced Engine coolant elbows replaced due to leaking Control unit replaced with refurbished unit from LElectronics
So, now a month later am dealing with another intermittent failure-to-fire issue. Thermostats check out fine. Pump is feeding fuel with no smoke (except if it fails to fire a few times). The burner does have a very occasional squeaking noise which I'm reading can be a fuel pump issue. I have purchased new bearings for the motor shaft and a new seal for the fuel pump because why not? I'm just gonna keep throwing parts at it until something sticks
So, plan time. Upon reading the Newell and Wanderlodge forums, there is a mod to replace the AH Webasto control unit and ignition coil with that of Beckett parts. They work similarly but the ones that have done the mod say the Beckett works better. I'm not a fan of Aqua Hot's pricing model, so I'd like to use as many parts that I can from other sources. For reference, a new controller is $180 vs $800. A new ignition coil is $140 vs $300-500.
Off my soapbox, ordered all parts needed to perform this mod and will update this as the install happens.
Has anyone done this on their FT?
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on November 19, 2022, 03:37:41 pm
Received most of my parts for this project. Awaiting a fuel pump seal (comes from France) and may need a steel electrical box for the new controller. Not sure if I will start this tomorrow or wait until I get all necessary parts as I will have to take the burner apart to get to several of the wires, the bearings and the seal.
For reference on cost currently. Burner and igniter. $312 with shipping. All other components to complete the circuit including all new wiring, relays, terminal board, bearings and pump seal. $130 with shipping
All in for less than $450.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Tommy D on November 19, 2022, 04:57:01 pm
Zach, Would be great if you give pictures and a detailed write up with instructions for future members that try and tackle this changeover. I am interested in seeing how it works out! Definitely like the reduction in cost for parts. Thanks for blazing the trail!
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Jim Frerichs on November 19, 2022, 05:39:31 pm
Hi Zach,
I did purchase and haven't yet tried to install Beckett parts in my own heater- just to see how well they work. As far as promoting or selling the idea online to others I have been scared away by the telephone time it might take to help folks to make the conversion and to answer numerous questions. In a business warranty and liability also are concerns. Plus, I am busy enough with making repairs for the Webasto aluminum controllers and Dometic 4 button thermostats. Good luck in your experiment. Jim
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on November 20, 2022, 01:13:52 pm
Zach, Would be great if you give pictures and a detailed write up with instructions for future members that try and tackle this changeover. I am interested in seeing how it works out! Definitely like the reduction in cost for parts. Thanks for blazing the trail!
I am planning on using the schematics and such found on the other two forums and will ensure that it is done correctly and in a place that makes everything still serviceable. Once I've got that all finished and working for a bit, I will post any changes that I may have done.
For now, it seems like straight forward schematics and I'd start today, but need the aqua hot burner working daily.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on November 20, 2022, 01:16:12 pm
I did purchase and haven't yet tried to install Beckett parts in my own heater- just to see how well they work. As far as promoting or selling the idea online to others I have been scared away by the telephone time it might take to help folks to make the conversion and to answer numerous questions. In a business warranty and liability also are concerns. Plus, I am busy enough with making repairs for the Webasto aluminum controllers and Dometic 4 button thermostats. Good luck in your experiment. Jim
Understandable. There is little information about this online but it seems like most of the electronics are similar to that of the AH controllers. I believe AH is now making a connector these particular control units. The problem is that you still need to have some electronic knowledge to tie the controller into the Beckett as it's all just single wires coming out of the unit.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on November 29, 2022, 08:11:17 pm
Update time!
All parts received. Seal on the back side of the fuel pump (don't know if I really needed to, but why not?) and bearings replaced (seemed fine until I took them out, were crunchy).
As far as the beckett stuff goes, I chose to just put the new ignition coil in for the day. I removed the old webasto ignition coil, wires, and electrodes. Unscrewed the electrode connectors to save for later and cut the positive and negative going to the controller wiring (brown and yellow wires). For now, I've run the yellow wire (was going through the burner down near the motor) to a terminal block with the positive (blue/white wire) of the Beckett ignition coil. The old brown negative wire did not seem to provide a sufficient ground so I ran a new ground wire to the bolt on the side of the AH near the relays.
The ignition wires are 14 ga 30kv (2 meters) purchased from amazon. I split this wire in half (1 meter each), put ring wire connectors on one end and screwed the electrodes into the new wire. The Beckett ignition coil has two coil springs on each connector that I twisted off, revealing bolts that the ring wire connectors can be placed upon. A couple of lock nuts keep the wires in place. the electrodes were reattached to the burner and gapped appropriately. the new electrode wires are long enough so they no longer have to stay within the AH unit and the ignition coil can be placed onto the wall or wherever.
So, that being said.. this is a viable option to the folks that have a failing ignition coil and don't want to spend AH money. In hindsite, this is likely all that I needed to do. The difference in spark is night and day. Easily 10x the spark of the old igniter. If this is all you feel you have to do, I would use some 16 ga wire for the positive and negative and the 14 ga 30 kv wire and new ignition coil. That would likely run you under $160.
High voltage wire XJS Electric Copper Core Flexible Silicone Wire Cable Red (14AWG 30KV) (2M):... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CJZS23S?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)
608 2RS ball bearings
Fuel pump shaft seal Rotary shaft seal oa-6x16x5-nbr - 6x16x5 mm | 123bearing (https://www.123bearing.com/seals-OA-6X16X5-NBR)
Terminal block Amazon.com: Blue Sea Systems 2512 12 Circuit 30A Terminal Block : Tools &... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000K2K6L6?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)
Newell Forum with wiring diagrams (must be a member to view) Aqua Hot Ignition Issues (https://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=5386&page=2)
Wanderlodge Forum where the idea seems to have orginated https://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32866
If you have questions, you can leave them here or you can send me a PM.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Michelle on November 30, 2022, 10:40:45 am
[Topic was moved from Renovations to Tech Talk - troubleshooting an AquaHot is more of a technical/repair subject]
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on December 02, 2022, 04:35:38 pm
Got the new controller installed. Seems to be working as it should. Turns on, waits 15 seconds, and lights. Goes through it's heating process, shuts the valve and the motor spins for two minutes. It will also shut the valve and keep the motor running when the switch is turned off.
I initially got incorrect relays (needs 87/87a) relays and also somehow wired them in reverse which kept blowing fuses and ruined the relays. So. If you attempt to do this, wire it correctly!
Now to replace the grommets, clutch discs, and I believe I need a new radiator cap as my overflow is not filling or draining. Always something.
I've got a little straightening up to do and some labeling, but for now it works.
Added photos of its current status and the wiring diagram used.
Control box Patriot Supply - 7556P152MU (https://www.patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/BECKETT_7556P152MU)
14 ga silicone wire (heat resistant) for main power and ground Electrical Wire 14 AWG 14 Gauge Silicone Wire Hook Up Wire Cable 20 Feet [10 ft Black and 10 ft Red] Soft and Flexible 400 Strands 0.08 mm of Tinned Copper Wire High Temperature Resistance (14AWG) Electrical Wire 14 AWG 14 Gauge Silicone Wire Hook Up Wire Cable 20 Feet [10... (https://a.co/d/7gV8j0U)
16 ga silicone wire for everything else. 16 Gauge Silicone Wire Spool 50 Feet, Ultra Flexible High Temp 200 deg C 600V 16 AWG Stranded Wire with 252 Strands of Tinned Copper Wire, 25 ft Black and 25 ft Red Wire for Model Battery by MILAPEAK Amazon.com: 16 Gauge Silicone Wire Spool 50 Feet, Ultra Flexible High Temp... (https://a.co/d/ikn0EFA)
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Busnut on December 11, 2022, 08:50:15 am
This is interesting. Keep us update on well the change is doing.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: juicesqueezer on December 11, 2022, 09:09:09 am
Nice job! That controller is sure cheaper than the $900 new one by Vehicle Systems! I may have missed this, but did you report on the total cost of this upgrade? Thanks!
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on December 11, 2022, 03:10:37 pm
Nice job! That controller is sure cheaper than the $900 new one by Vehicle Systems! I may have missed this, but did you report on the total cost of this upgrade? Thanks!
Approximate total cost was around $450. That doesn't include potential tools needed like wire cutters and connectors. I'd assume anyone attempting this would have wire cutters/crimpers, dmm, etc.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on December 11, 2022, 03:15:36 pm
This is interesting. Keep us update on well the change is doing.
Following install, I was still getting failure to fires...
I removed the supply fuel and found some flakes and dirt on the screen on the inside of the fuel pump. I cleaned it out and checked the fuel pressure. I ended up making a fuel pressure gauge (instead of spending $140 on the AH one) and found my initial pressure was 175 psi. Lowered that, put some new grommets on the burner head, and has run solidly for five days.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Busnut on December 11, 2022, 04:54:07 pm
Zack Any thought on using the wire Beckett to Webasto Burner Wiring Harness
You can use that but know that it doesn't make it plug and play. It will utilize the existing wire to the burner which I found to be in need of changing. For example, my igniter wires were destroyed once I removed them from the burner due to heat damage.
I was able to remove the existing wires and have them in case I want to switch over if I ever sell the coach. Though at this point, I don't know that I would do that.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on February 15, 2024, 10:01:25 pm
Just an update. It's been about 15 months since my initial install. I recently experienced failure to fire episodes. In previous unit tear downs, I noticed that my flame sensor wasn't always working appropriately. It seems that the wiring was very sensitive. I finally got sick of dealing with adjusting them and switched out the AH flame sensor with the Beckett sensor that was included with the Beckett controller.
This $25 flame sensor is not a plug and play sensor and had to be trimmed down to fit behind the original plate hole. I forgot to take a picture of it after install but I ended up also having to use a steel zip tie to keep it in place. It's janky, but I'm also seeking a different way to mount it.
I would assume that this flame sensor would work with the original AH controller much like the Beckett igniter should work with the AH controller.
Also, looks like patriot supply links aren't working anymore. You can still look up the part numbers on Google. The flame sensor looks to be included with both the igniter and the controller.
Beckett 7006U Cad Cell Eye and 15" Wire Lead Set For Beckett AF/G, NX, SR,... (https://a.co/d/dRNchHN)
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Busnut on February 16, 2024, 03:13:17 pm
Keep us update on well the change is doing.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Woody & Sitka on February 17, 2024, 12:30:40 am
Zach's thread inspired me last year to acquire the Beckett parts, just in case my 2nd AH Webasto controller in 2 years cratered. Wouldn't you know it, just after getting my boiler tank leak fixed, I got persistent no-lights due to another Webasto controller failure.
So this week I ditched the Webasto gear and installed the Beckett mod, just as Zach and the NewellGurus thread had described. I decided to keep the original Webasto flame sensor, however it did not work at all (likely due to my lack of electron savvy). Like Zach, I ended up doing the Beckett sensor modification (a simple metal tab extension and bent leg on the Beckett flame sensor mount) and it works perfectly. I wish I'd taken more photos of the internal mods (such as my ignitor work-up and the flame sensor, which requires a dedicated wire pair to the controller), but I was more interested in getting the AH back up and running so I could take a hot shower whilst boondocking here in Q.
I did not cut a single Aquahot wire, and tied into the AH harnesses as needed with blade connectors. All components are mounted external to the case for heat protection and sound deadening.
Total outlay was less than $600 including ignitor, wires and parts, and 3-4 days to fumble through the mod.
If anyone is curious about going this route, it is not for the novice AH user or non-DIY'er, but it can save you thousands of coach bucks if you can go down this path. The Beckett ignitor mod can be done independently if so desired for a much, much hotter spark.
One of the most noticeable improvements I've experienced thus far is the microprocessor timing...you can set your second hand to the time what it takes for light off and cool down...no more "whenever" events with the Webasto capacitor timing. However, if the there's a failure to light shut down, you must pull the power fuse to reset the controller...the galley switch will not suffice.
PM me and I can give more details, photos, or advise. Woody.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: craneman on February 17, 2024, 12:24:22 pm
If my igniter coil fails again I will use the Beckett conversion for that part. I don't believe the new style controller I have will fail but if it did the Beckett conversion would be the way to go.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: dsd on February 17, 2024, 02:08:03 pm
I was talking to one of the smarter MH techs last week and he mentioned something that Woody mentions but possibly didnt realize. Regardless of the AH power switch position there is power to the AH controller always. This means to me that although you may not be using your AH, the controller life is as thou it is in a standby mode being powered up. I mentioned that I'll be installing a timed relay to power down the AH after say 30 minutes after the power is selected off. Relay will be controlled by the power switch but will control all the power to the controller to completely power it down with the time delay. Imagine never using your AQ diesel heat being on shore power and adding time ran to the controller continuously. I'm viewing this to being simular to a light bulb that has a life limit
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Woody & Sitka on February 17, 2024, 04:19:07 pm
That's a great idea, Scott. Please post your timer install here.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: dsd on February 17, 2024, 09:34:18 pm
Amazon.com: GEYA Delay Off Single Function Time Relay 2 Outputs 16A Electroni... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09WYD3H6Q/?coliid=I2S1P4I0ZXEA5Z&colid=12M94CNUE9SD1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1)
Probably the relay I will use. Still need to determine how much power is required for background use and full demand loads. Busy on other projects and I keep my coach completely powered down so not accumulating time on controller. But its on the list
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Zach on February 19, 2024, 10:08:57 am
Zach's thread inspired me last year to acquire the Beckett parts, just in case my 2nd AH Webasto controller in 2 years cratered. Wouldn't you know it, just after getting my boiler tank leak fixed, I got persistent no-lights due to another Webasto controller failure.
So this week I ditched the Webasto gear and installed the Beckett mod, just as Zach and the NewellGurus thread had described. I decided to keep the original Webasto flame sensor, however it did not work at all (likely due to my lack of electron savvy). Like Zach, I ended up doing the Beckett sensor modification (a simple metal tab extension and bent leg on the Beckett flame sensor mount) and it works perfectly. I wish I'd taken more photos of the internal mods (such as my ignitor work-up and the flame sensor, which requires a dedicated wire pair to the controller), but I was more interested in getting the AH back up and running so I could take a hot shower whilst boondocking here in Q.
I did not cut a single Aquahot wire, and tied into the AH harnesses as needed with blade connectors. All components are mounted external to the case for heat protection and sound deadening.
Total outlay was less than $600 including ignitor, wires and parts, and 3-4 days to fumble through the mod.
If anyone is curious about going this route, it is not for the novice AH user or non-DIY'er, but it can save you thousands of coach bucks if you can go down this path. The Beckett ignitor mod can be done independently if so desired for a much, much hotter spark.
One of the most noticeable improvements I've experienced thus far is the microprocessor timing...you can set your second hand to the time what it takes for light off and cool down...no more "whenever" events with the Webasto capacitor timing. However, if the there's a failure to light shut down, you must pull the power fuse to reset the controller...the galley switch will not suffice.
PM me and I can give more details, photos, or advise. Woody.
I made a simple solution to this problem. A 12v remote power switch. It's installed on the main pos/neg going to the Beckett controller. I keep the controller up in the kitchen. No more going into the bay to unplug the wire if I ever need to turn to the unit off to service or reset.
DC 12V 40A Relay Remote Control Switch, 1CH Universal 433Mhz Remote Control... (https://a.co/d/ceW3ELW)
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: mkc1962 on February 23, 2024, 10:15:25 am
I think we all know the cost and the life expectancy, of the OE Webasto parts. Not to include they are 70's tech at best. Curios....whats the average life expectancy of the Becker controller?....to me it appears to be an enclosed/potted non serviceable unit.
As for the other Becker items coil,sensor, etc.....great to hear cross compatible.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Rudy on February 23, 2024, 04:13:26 pm
Mike, if you want 21st century tech in your AH heater, please purchase the AHE 300 901 burner controller from me for the 21st century price of only $1029. The Becket conversion will provide a cost effective alternative but not a 21st century solution.
If you want even more 21st century tech in your heater, replace it with a new 600D heater with a reporter to control the heater and a 300 901 control unit to run the burner. Lots of $$$$
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: craneman on February 23, 2024, 09:45:43 pm
As I posted I bought the new controller 300-901 from Rudy and don't expect any more issues. The controller tests all the components before giving the green light.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: mkc1962 on February 24, 2024, 11:07:03 pm
Rudy, thanks for the feedback on the Becket, I was just curios.
Although my ancient TTL/relay based tin box was still working at times. My personal AHE-100 is now controlled by a state of the art PLC based controller that should last 15-20+ years.
Title: Re: Replacing Webasto controller and ignition coil with Beckett
Post by: Rudy on February 25, 2024, 08:02:36 am
Mike, when you have a minute, please call me between 8 and 8. Thanks.