We are planning for our 2cd trip to "Q" in January. Last year, being new to our MH and boondocking especially, we only stayed about a week to try things out. This year we are going to hopefully stay a couple weeks at least. We stay out at, I guess what is the old Lemmon Rally site. There were about 20 others there last year and we had a great time and met good people we hope to see again.
My question is, does anyone use or have any experience with the suitcase style portable solar panels? We do not have solar on the coach, and I was just wondering if these panels are worth the $300-$1000 dollar expenditure. Looks like there are several 200w-400w panel systems available. We make it OK out there running the generator a few hours daily, was just wanting to minimize this if possible. Do these panel systems just attach to my house batteries with jumper cable type clamps ?
Theres probably a more complicated answer to this than what I'm asking, but I was just seeing some of these systems on sale now. Thanks for any input.
IMO a small (200-400W) portable PV setup won't make much difference in how long you need to run your generator while dry camping. Our coach has 960W (nominal STC rating) and when we are at Q we still end up running our generator for a while each day, usually first thing in the morning. Of course, how much battery you have also enters into the equation, and how frugal you are with battery power usage.
I would also think that unpacking and repacking a portable kit would get really old after a while.
I believe you would be better off putting that money towards a decent sized roof mounted system. But that's just my opinion, FWIW.
A system like that will be great for keeping your chassis batteries topped off and probably allow you to use house lights and water pump but TV/Computer/fridge are likely out of the question. My guess is that you'll end up running your generator just as much and agree with Chuck about putting that money towards a full blown roof-top install
X2 on what Chuck said.
I can't imagine taking the panels out and setting up each time. As others have said above. We've only got about $1400 in our entire solar system and never start the generator unless in hot summer places. Solar panels are very inexpensive now so throw them in your compartment and drive to Puerto Peñasco after Q and have them installed for reasonable prices.
Pierce
Keith, it depends on how much draw your rig has. We just boondocked for a few days over the Thanksgiving holiday, using the 2 week old batteries I just installed...replacement Lifeline 8D's. 3 x 255Ah rating, so 765Ah total bank size.
While sitting and not doing anything other than running the basic systems and the residential fridge, the Victron BMV-712 reports a draw of ~14 amps on the batteries. When the Aqua Hot fires up, that will jump up 20 amps. If one zone is heating (zone pump + register fans), I see another few amps of load on the batteries.
I ran the generator to fully charge the batteries to the floating point each day by 4-5pm in the afternoon. By the next morning, the BMV reported I had pulled between 280Ah and 350Ah of power out of the batteries. This means with a 50% state of charge (SOC) minimum threshold, my bank can expend 382Ah before it MUST be recharged. I got pretty close every day.
I have some solar on the roof. 2 older panels, I'm not sure the wattage of. They put out a max of 135w or so according to the Victron MPPT controller they are connected to. This translates to about 7-9amps of power going back into the batteries when the sun is up. If the heater isn't running, that means I'm offsetting 8 of the 14 amps of draw...not even keeping up with the most minimal draws the coach has. This year at Q, we'll be replacing those two panels with two new 190w panels, which should at least double our output. This is all my budget affords at this time. With this, I hope we can keep up with the power requirements during the day, and then recharge the batteries to recover what was used at night.
Later next year, or Q 2024, we'll add 2-4 more panels in the effort to get ahead on power production. The system will support 1200w on the roof with the components and wiring we'll have.
Couple of thoughts about portable solar panels:
Normal solar no load output voltage is about 21 volts, with loads output is about 17 volts and they require a solar regulator to match battery voltages.
Some smaller panels are self-regulating, do not need a regulator because they are designed for output voltages of about 13 volts. These are not recommended, so if a solar set does not have a separate regulator, beware.
Also Solar panels generate current during day, and are a drain when not lighted, so something is needed to allow panels to charge and not allow them to discharge batteries.
Separate sitting on ground solar panels are theftable, and it has been known to have generators and other sitting on the ground valuables stolen at Quartzite, even when cabled or chained.
Hey all, thanks for your responses...sounds like a portable panel would be a big waste of time and money at this point. I don't know enough about my requirements and solar in general to be able to do anything at this point. Maybe I could hook up with someone out at Q and get some more information to be able to make a semi intelligent decision. I'm not against a roof mounted system but before I would spend the money, I would want to know I was getting a proper system. Also want to make sure I have the proper battery bank to make it effective.. thanks again
It really depends on how much room you have and how often you want to move. If you're in the Phoenix are, you can check out a place like Santan Solar. Panels are cheap and you can make a tilt ground mount for cheap (say $0.50- $0.75 per watt). These panels will likely be 40x80" and around 50 lbs. this makes it a bit cumbersome to move around and get out, but doing this every couple of weeks isn't awful if you're wanting power without a lot of money.
Last year I spent much of the winter outside of Salome, AZ boondocking and added four 250 watt panels as "ground deploys" and used a chopped up pallet as my stands. For less than $500 (solar charger included), I was able to add 1000 watts to my system.
You can spend your spare time between now and "Q" educating yourselves on the subject. On this Forum you will find numerous threads describing solar projects. They range from modest (in size and complexity) all the way up to "cost-is-no-object" extravagant. Some were done by pro solar installation companies - some were "Do-It-Yerself" jobs done by tech savvy Forum members. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Our members already pretty much know what works, and what doesn't.
Try plugging the term "solar" into the Forum search tool. You will get many pages of results. Have fun!
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While you're there, go talk to the folks at Discount Solar. We had them install 3-190W panels put on top along with 3-100aH Lithium batteries & 2K Inverter 2+ years ago and couldn't be happier - the only limiting factor in our set-up are the holding tanks. They installed the solar that day!
We have LED's in all of our lighting and watch DVD movies at night. Of course, phones, iPads, etc are charged throughout the day and have had no problems. We run the 'fridge on propane. The most we've used on a day (including cloudy days), has been no more than 26% battery capacity.
We use our Lazy Daze for boondocking in the wilds of New Mexico & Arizona exclusively and this setup has been outstanding. We do not use AC at all preferring to camp where we don't need it, elevation-wise... of course, our setup would not allow for it unless we used our generator.
At some point, we'll full-time again and get another Foretravel at which time, with all the added roof-top real estate, we'll add solar and most likely, will go to Discount Solar for the install.
Check 'em out, ask questions...
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One solar option creeping steadily into the market is solar generators. I have seen a few reviews on the Mango power setup and I'm considering them for my off grid cabin. Take a look. Mango Power E Home Backup and Portable Power Station (https://us.mangopower.com/products/mango-power-e-portable-power-station?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc) Woody.
Thanks everyone....going to use the time between now and Q to educate myself on my needs and wants from a solar system.
AM Solar has many useful videos. If you don't already have a battery shut, start there and monitor your power consumption. Winter is a good test as you will be running heat. I recommend a Victron shunt with blue tooth. Then you will have a better idea how much solar would be required to "break even" in normal circumstances. You can then tour coaches at Q and look at various installations. Even if you get a professional installer you will be in a much better position to evaluate what they propose. Victron has a good ecosystem of equipment that can talk to each other and integrates well. Hope to see you again at Q.
Two years ago we bought a suitcase style 200w solar system to reduce generator usage. With optimal sunlight, which I assume you would get in the desert, we get 12-14A output. We run our refrigerator on propane when dry camping, so we don't draw a lot of power, and the panel made a noticeable difference in how much we had to run the generator. The panel came with alligator clip connectors, although I quickly added a short hard wired cable with an MC4 connector, as well as a long extension cable to optimize location. As far as setup, I can have the panel set up in about five minutes, including a 35' security cable I added to minimize theft issues. I drilled a hole in the frame of the panel to accommodate a padlock and attach the cable to the coach or a tree, depending on the site. We have since added 1600w of solar on the roof, but the portable panel was not a waste. We still use it a lot, especially when we camp in heavily wooded sites where the roof panels get little sun. The portable panel can be moved to a spot that gets more sun than the coach. I would recommend a portable panel if you don't use a lot of power, want to try out solar without going all in, and think you might use it even after getting roof panels because you camp at least occasionally where the coach might not get full sun. I have considered buying another, but I am looking for a good deal on a lighter setup.
AM Solar installed our PV system 7 years ago. Since that time, we have had
zero problems with their work or the equipment they installed. Highly recommended! :thumbsup:
PV System, Installation, at AM Solar (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=26206)
AM Solar | Solar Panels for RV | RV Solar (https://amsolar.com)
There is a guy a Q that will come out to the gathering site and give you a price and install a system on your coach. He is very reasonable. Maybe someone will chime in with his information.
When considering the expense of installing a solar system, keep in mind the Federal Tax Credit for Solar Photovoltaics. This credit applies to systems installed on your coach (which is considered equivalent to a "vacation home" by the IRS). Recent action by Congress raised the limit back up to 30% until the year 2032. However, what the government gives they can also take away, so if you want to take advantage of the generous credit I'd suggest doing it sooner than later. See below for more info:
Homeowner's Guide to the Federal Tax Credit for Solar Photovoltaics |... (https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/homeowners-guide-federal-tax-credit-solar-photovoltaics)
Anyone who plans on claiming the tax credit should know that the cost of batteries cannot be claimed for the credit unless 100% of the power that charges the batteries comes from the solar system, 100% of the time, according to a private letter ruling from the IRS. Here is the article explaining the ruling that is linked to from the energy.gov site linked to above:
Residential Solar Storage is Eligible for Tax Credit, Subject to a 100%... (https://www.taxequitytimes.com/2018/03/residential-solar-storage-eligible-tax-credit-subject-100-cliff/)
I am not a tax professional (and I don't play one on TV), but the article is pretty clear even to a non-professional. Also, I know private letter rulings are not technically applicable beyond the taxpayer to whom they originally apply, but I also know from previous experience that the IRS usually follows them, especially when they work in the IRS's favor. I do not presume to tell anyone else what to do, but I personally make it a habit never to lie on an IRS form, so I won't be claiming the cost of my batteries.
Dave,
You bring up a good point about the "rules" pertaining to claiming solar storage batteries under the tax credit. I, like you, am certainly not a tax professional. The article in your link was dated March of 2018, as was the original private letter ruling. In the (almost) five years since that letter was issued there has been a veritable explosion of solar system installations in this country. I would guess that a good percentage of these systems included some type of storage. I would also guess that, in many cases, the batteries were included in the amount claimed under the tax credit.
The article states that "taxpayers must be careful that they can demonstrate that 100 percent of the energy used by the battery is derived from a solar source." I wonder, as a practical matter, what exactly the IRS would accept as proof of this fact. Private residential solar systems are not required to keep detailed logs documenting the source of power being used to recharge the batteries. The flow of power into and out of storage batteries can be easily altered by simply flipping a mechanical (or virtual) switch. How would the IRS have a system owner demonstrate that they have been in strict compliance every single day the system has been in operation?
The "rules" covering what can be claimed under the solar tax credit have always been rather vague and open to interpretation. For instance, some home owners have a new roof installed at the same time they have solar mounted on the roof of their house, ostensibly because the old roof is "too weak" to support the weight of the panels. The cost of the new roof is then included in the tax credit claim. AFAIK, the IRS just takes the home owners word for the fact that this is true. I have never heard of any great push by the IRS to actually investigate these tax credit claims.
To be clear, I'm not advocating telling lies on your tax return. Honesty is always the best policy! 8)
By the way, for storage systems installed in 2022, new less restrictive rules went into effect on Aug. 16, 2022 (retroactive back to Jan. 1st):
Do Batteries Qualify for the Solar Tax Credit in the Inflation Reduction... (https://www.solar.com/learn/how-getting-a-home-battery-affects-your-federal-solar-incentive-tax-credit/)
It will be interesting to see how the IRS interprets the new law. The form and instructions for 2022 are not available yet. If batteries are allowable without restriction, I would deduct the batteries I added this year. I still would hesitate to claim ones I installed in 2021. I agree that the IRS does not ask taxpayers to verify such claims at the time of filing, but having been audited once, I know I was glad I never took any deductions I wasn't absolutely certain of (I had a business then and a complex return). During the audit, the burden of proof for everything was mine; if I could not have proved anything they questioned, the deductions would have been disallowed.
Check this guy out. He full times in a Foretravel and does good quality work. Shop is in Q.
He installed a Lithonics battery monitor / charger for us last year and I couldn't be happier. Plan to have him do more work this year.
I think he's happier using email to communicate. Phone # is active but he's busy. When we were there he carried his phone but it rang off the hook. Price was reasonable too.
Agreed, this is who worked on upgrading my system at Q this year, and will be upgrading more next month. Nice work, quality equipment and good prices.
Be aware, you can take the solar panels, equipment, installation cost and taxes of the panels, charger, wiring and other equipment of your private residence or vacation home (its ineligible if you rent it out), but the credit for batteries only applies to your main home. Unless your living in your motorhome full-time, taking the deduction for batteries installed along with your other solar components could run afoul of the IRS.
We're full timers and I hadn't heard of the private ruling, so we took the full credit for both solar generation and batteries. I probably would do the same absent a specific regulation. Private letters are just that. I guess it depends on your stomach for being questioned should you be audited. I was very careful to make sure of complying with the residency requirement though.
Here's the IRS publication:
Instructions for Form 5695 (2020) | Internal Revenue Service (https://www.irs.gov/instructions/i5695)
"Qualified fuel cell property costs. Qualified fuel cell property costs are costs for qualified fuel cell property installed on or in connection with your main home located in the United States. Qualified fuel cell property is an integrated system comprised of a fuel cell stack assembly and associated balance of plant components that converts a fuel into electricity using electrochemical means. To qualify for the credit, the fuel cell property must have a nameplate capacity of at least one-half kilowatt of electricity using an electrochemical process and an electricity-only generation efficiency greater than 30%."
"Main home. Your main home is generally the home where you live most of the time. A temporary absence due to special circumstances, such as illness, education, business, military service, or vacation, won't change your main home."