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Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Vossx2 on April 30, 2023, 06:19:14 pm

Title: Delaminating
Post by: Vossx2 on April 30, 2023, 06:19:14 pm
Well, damn. Looks like we suddenly have a delam issue. We can push the top bubble in, but not the bottom one. Cargo doors are operating just fine. Bulkhead was inspected last year.

Just got back on the road after a year of sitting still and this stinks. From what I have read, looks like Xtreme is our best bet... if we repair. May be time to consider our exit from full-time RVing :(
Questions:
1. How critical is this? Can it wait till we are back in Texas (March 2024)? We are currently in Palm Springs, slowly making our way to Oregon before heading back to Texas.
2. Anybody have an idea of what something like this will cost to repair?
3. Could this mean we have a bigger issue?
4. It's been 104 degrees for the last 4 days, could the heat have anything to do with this?
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Rudy on April 30, 2023, 06:26:23 pm
Call and talk to Greg at Xtreme.  He can give you the straight skinny on how soon
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: red tractor on April 30, 2023, 06:58:34 pm
My guess is that marker light near the rear of the main awning not sealed properly letting in water causing the delamination  You can remove the marker light and check if it is sealed and reseal it. Our 03 had that issue when we bought it and we took it to Xtreme and Rance fixed it and no more issues.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Vossx2 on April 30, 2023, 07:12:13 pm
My guess is that marker light near the rear of the main awning not sealed properly letting in water causing the delamination  You can remove the marker light and check if it is sealed and reseal it. Our 03 had that issue when we bought it and we took it to Xtreme and Rance fixed it and no more issues.
Temp's are dropping tomorrow (no rain)... we will pull the light and check. We will also call Xtreme.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Barry & Cindy on April 30, 2023, 09:08:19 pm
How about drill a hole, fill it with adhesive, place a piece of plywood against the side while the glue sets. Find a way to press the wood to coach wall.

You have a good simple coach, don't let this adventure get to you.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: WagonWheels on May 01, 2023, 12:54:27 am
Had a delam appear on the curbside down from the bathroom window.  Sun was shining on this side that heated up the siding. Not visible like yours. I posted the problem back in October. Xtreme gave us an estimate of almost 10 coach bucks. Not only expensive money wise, but time wise too. Xtreme said it would take three to four weeks to repair. We have an appointment for next September. In the meantime, our tranny is sick, over heating. Could be something simple like a plugged cooler to a coach ending expense.  Hope to know more later this week. 
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: John Haygarth on May 01, 2023, 11:00:32 am
Looks like the bathroom is behind the wall and if so I would strongly suggest you look hard to find a leak in the inside as moisture will get thru the panel. My feeling is also check the roof radious  for cracks and around the skylite. Could be either  one.
Johnh
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Vossx2 on May 01, 2023, 01:35:54 pm
Interesting.... The bubbles went completely flat that evening. Seems weird... is that normal?
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: dsd on May 01, 2023, 01:56:37 pm
Trapped air heating up in the sun. Wonder if you could vent the backside and resolve?
Scott
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: John44 on May 01, 2023, 02:06:27 pm
Try what Barry said,get a long rachet strap and some wood blocks and go around the coach to hold the plywood.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: bbeane on May 01, 2023, 03:06:25 pm
Interesting.... The bubbles went completely flat that evening. Seems weird... is that normal?
If there are any loose/ Delam spots they will show up due to expansion from the heat.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Vossx2 on May 01, 2023, 03:59:25 pm
How about drill a hole, fill it with adhesive, place a piece of plywood against the side while the glue sets. Find a way to press the wood to coach wall.

You have a good simple coach, don't let this adventure get to you.
What kind of adhesive would be best for this? What size hole? How do you get the adhesive to spread, multiple holes?
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: John S on May 01, 2023, 07:26:21 pm
According to James at Xtreme that will not work as the steel is not clean and it will pop when it heats up.  I had to ha ve both my slides done
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Phranko on May 02, 2023, 06:06:42 pm
According to James at Xtreme that will not work as the steel is not clean and it will pop when it heats up.  I had to ha ve both my slides done

Interesting!!!
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Hans&Marjet on May 02, 2023, 06:36:55 pm
Sooo what process would Xtreme use to cure this issue......cut and re-glue, then glass over the seams ?
Curious mind wants to know...
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: John S on May 02, 2023, 06:47:54 pm
They cut out the part cleaned the steel replaced the insulation and reglassed it.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Hans&Marjet on May 02, 2023, 06:56:17 pm
Thx John..
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Michelle on May 02, 2023, 07:53:00 pm
According to James at Xtreme that will not work as the steel is not clean and it will pop when it heats up.  I had to ha ve both my slides done

Are we sure that's the issue here?  The coach in question is a 1997 with no slides. 
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Old Toolmaker on May 02, 2023, 08:43:45 pm
What kind of adhesive would be best for this? What size hole? How do you get the adhesive to spread, multiple holes?
Given what I've done on mine so far, if I were to attack that repair, I'd begin by determining the thickness of the wall and setting my portable circular saw 1/64" less.  I already know that I can cut that thickness of veneer with a sharp knife.
Working carefully with my saw, I'd keep opening the hole until I was into "good" wood then make the final cuts in the middle of the aluminum tubing under-structure.  I'd make a purpose built table and fiberglass the new wood, finishing with white gelcoat and then trim to size.  Drill and countersink for self tapping screws and fill the screw holes with filled resin.  For the seams?  I honestly don't know.  For an invisible repair you'd have to grind down the seams deep enough for one thickness of cloth and resin then gelcoat over the top.  Takes about 3-weeks.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Vossx2 on May 02, 2023, 11:18:41 pm
Given what I've done on mine so far, if I were to attack that repair, I'd begin by determining the thickness of the wall and setting my portable circular saw 1/64" less.  I already know that I can cut that thickness of veneer with a sharp knife.
Working carefully with my saw, I'd keep opening the hole until I was into "good" wood then make the final cuts in the middle of the aluminum tubing under-structure.  I'd make a purpose built table and fiberglass the new wood, finishing with white gelcoat and then trim to size.  Drill and countersink for self tapping screws and fill the screw holes with filled resin.  For the seams?  I honestly don't know.  For an invisible repair you'd have to grind down the seams deep enough for one thickness of cloth and resin then gelcoat over the top.  Takes about 3-weeks.
Since we are full time... never gonna be able to do this. Not sure we have those kinda skills, tools or a space to complete that kind of work. Thanks though!
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Vossx2 on May 02, 2023, 11:24:05 pm
Trapped air heating up in the sun. Wonder if you could vent the backside and resolve?
Scott
Hmmm... drill a hole in the bathroom wall to release the air? That's an interesting concept. Wonder if it could really be that simple!
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Vossx2 on May 02, 2023, 11:29:40 pm
My guess is that marker light near the rear of the main awning not sealed properly letting in water causing the delamination  You can remove the marker light and check if it is sealed and reseal it. Our 03 had that issue when we bought it and we took it to Xtreme and Rance fixed it and no more issues.
We removed the light, but found no evidence of a leak. Ordering LED replacements as we broke that one trying to get it off! Can't find a leak in the bathroom. Will get on the roof when we finally stop getting sandblasted here in the desert!
Kinda wondering if this an issue from a long time ago that we just found due to the heat?? We may never know!
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: dsd on May 03, 2023, 09:59:34 am
Sooo what process would Xtreme use to cure this issue......cut and re-glue, then glass over the seams ?
Curious mind wants to know...

On my coach the slide upper locks had the glass become loose and leaked water inside causing havoc on slide. Since the internal structure was unprimed there was corrosion on everything. Once opened up I used a rust converter to get ahead of the rust and removed all loose material. With my past experience using expanding foam I filled the area and weighed the skin down with heavy steel beams till it was cured. Several days. All the failed sealant must be removed. Did I mention its a big job. Luckily all the local Foretravel owners showed up to help. Thank you Jim and Kieth
2000, 2001 slide delamination (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=44082.0)
If air is trapped venting on the inside would be real simple to try IMO. If it's just the panel heating up and ballooning out I'd probably wouldnt loose any sleep over it.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Protech Racing on May 03, 2023, 11:21:57 am
  Gorilla glue injected into some high holes will glue it all together .
    Spray a little water into the holes, blow some air softly  in to spread it all around.
    Shoot lots of glue in, tape over the holes .
  Wrap the bus with  clothes line and twist it tight to the  2x4  or 4x4 , press them to the  problem areas.
  The  water make sit act like expanding foam . But with lots more glue action. 
  I did a glue test with Gorrilla glue before I built my airplane with it . There were concerns  about its's durability among all of the EAA guys.  It passed 10 yrs as long as it was painted or enclosed .  left i n the sun unpainted, it failed in about a year . The painted, parts left in the sun are still stuck . 15 yrs.     
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: dsd on May 03, 2023, 12:14:08 pm
  Gorilla glue injected into some high holes will glue it all together .
    Spray a little water into the holes, blow some air softly  in to spread it all around.
    Shoot lots of glue in, tape over the holes .
  Wrap the bus with  clothes line and twist it tight to the  2x4  or 4x4 , press them to the  problem areas.
  The  water make sit act like expanding foam . But with lots more glue action. 
  I did a glue test with Gorrilla glue before I built my airplane with it . There were concerns  about its's durability among all of the EAA guys.  It passed 10 yrs as long as it was painted or enclosed .  left i n the sun unpainted, it failed in about a year . The painted, parts left in the sun are still stuck . 15 yrs.     
Water activated polyurethane Is great stuff. There are a bunch of good adhesives in production. Low outgassing and some have excellent burn qualities. Catalyzed products (epoxy's)have become almost magical in their quality and performance. Downside is their longevity and disposal problems due to lasting forever out of the killer UV exposure. Most un-recyclable.👍👍
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: John44 on May 03, 2023, 12:20:32 pm
If that does'nt work your drilling where Xtreme would cut anyway,remember,Xtreme is in business to get you to bring it to them,
not to tell you how to repair yourself and skip them,you can always do the main repair and then let them do the final painting.
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: WagonWheels on May 03, 2023, 02:52:21 pm
We have the same issue as you do.  Posted problem Fiberglass Siding Issue (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=45760.msg465216#msg465216). The problem is on the sunny side of the coach.  The sun rays heat up the fiberglass and the trapped air underneath.  This causes expansion.  Not sure what causes the bubble to appear.  Hot air pushing the fiberglass out or just the fiberglass expanding. Since it's not attached to the wall, the fiberglass pouches out. Maybe both?  We had our coach into Xtreme to repair a damaged bay door.  The outer fiberglass had separated from the inter fiberglass.  This happens when one runs the coach into a light standard when making a left hand turn.  Anyway Xtreme used a gorilla glue type product and clamps to patch the fiberglass parts back together.  In the case of glueing the fiberglass siding to the under structure of the wall, it was suggested to use straps going around the coach.  Another idea you might consider would be to drive the coach close to a wall (building, retaining, etc.).  Insert the glue into the bubble area, place a 2x4 or other wood product on the wall and compress the bubble with a screw jack inserted between the coach and the wall.  Let the glue cure over night and hope for the best. 
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Bob & Sue on May 03, 2023, 04:26:56 pm
We had a delam issue where the GV cap overlaps the side wall on the drivers side and a small amount on pass side.
  I fixed it with the gorilla glue stuff also.  Just parked the coach about 3 ft from the garage wall , removed the vertical trim and slowly wedged the cap out.  Sprayed it with water and then slopped as much gorilla in there as possible. Hurry cause you only have 20 minutes.  Then wedged it with carpet covered 2 by 6s against the garage. 

  Done deal, now solid as a rock 🤞🏾But someday may fix the much smaller area on pass side. Especially since I can't see it but by tapping on the gel coat I can hear a dead spot. 
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: Pamela & Mike on May 03, 2023, 10:27:19 pm
Just an FYI, you can also use an inner tube for your jacking device lite weight, efficient, cheep.

Mike
Title: Re: Delaminating
Post by: John44 on May 04, 2023, 07:28:56 am
Save those old airbags.