Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 12:01:45 pm
Title: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 12:01:45 pm
Would love some help right now.
We have just taken the rig out for its first trip of the season and have already (less than two hours in) gotten stranded on an exit ramp 🤦♀️
It's funny because Trent was just talking about how we need to take her in for an oil change and lube and all the stuff and literally right after he said that our alarms went off and the ABS light and Stop Engine light turned on. We had enough time to get off an exit and then the whole rig shut down and won't let us even get off the shoulder of the exit (there was another RV pulling off as head of us at the same time and we didn't make it past them to be able to pull over ourselves). Any idea what may be causing this issue? Our air pressure dials are right where they should be (unless they are not actually registering the correct pressure).
We tried to turn the engine back on to get across the road and to the shoulder of the entrance ramp back onto the highway but now the engine won't even turn over.
Thanks for any help you may be able to offer. I'm also going to post in the forums in case you are not online right now :)
Siobhan Walker
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on June 11, 2023, 12:07:59 pm
I have absolutely no input for you other than to call for towing. But a series of questions maybe What happens when you try to turn the engine over? Are you sure your fuel level is correct? That happened to me once but I ran out of fuel and the gauge still read a half a tank. If you can dip your tank and make sure. Did you try your boost switch? I'm sure others will chime in with better suggestions this is just what comes to my head at this point. If you have coachnet or anything like that I would call them now since you're stuck on the road. Good luck and be safe most of all.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: John Duld on June 11, 2023, 12:12:46 pm
You didn't lose you engine oil did you?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 12:16:24 pm
We have oil. We have fuel. Have checked both. We did notice the reservoir tank for the coolant is empty. It seems really impossible to fill it though as the opening on top is too small to fit any type of cup or anything. Could this be our problem? We didn't get any messages about overheating and didn't see anything about that on our gauges or the silver light monitoring system.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 12:17:54 pm
To add...the rig has been sitting for almost 2 years but we winterized and stored it properly (at least the same as we have in the past) and we have taken it out around town and everything seemed to be running just fine.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Dub on June 11, 2023, 12:19:08 pm
Your engine is mechanical so it sounds like a loss of 12 volts from the chassis batteries, that would be start batteries. Check for tightness and clean hot and ground terminal.Engine not trying to turn over points to that on a mechanical engine. It would also cause the engine to die if all 12 volt is gone.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: turbojack on June 11, 2023, 12:20:01 pm
Have you gone back to the engine and checked if any fluids are on the ground? Are all the belts still on the engine? Is there an unusual smell? Oil level ok? Color of oil?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 12:23:30 pm
Have you gone back to the engine and checked if any fluids are on the ground? Are all the belts still on the engine? Is there an unusual smell? Oil level ok? Color of oil?
Oil level around half. We added oil just in case. Didn't see any fluids on the ground but we did notice the coolant reservoir was empty so Trent is filling it a bit by the capful right now. Rig is hot so we can't fill the main coolant tank. Going to check belts and batteries.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 11, 2023, 12:26:15 pm
Does the Allison shift pad illuminate as it should when the key is turned on?
If not, suspect the IGNITION SOLENOID. You may be able to free it up with a light, sharp rap like with the plastic handle of a screwdriver.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: SteveB on June 11, 2023, 12:29:54 pm
The big black tank with the radiator cap is where the low coolant sensor is located, I think. If that tank is empty you it will shut the engine down. Adding coolant to the overflow/ recovery tank will not help. Not sure what would cause the engine not to crank other than an electrical issue not related to the engine shut down cause? I would also recommend a tow for safety sake.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 11, 2023, 12:31:09 pm
300SE. Is this a CAT? Do you have 12V on the dash, headlights, etc? What happens when you turn the key to start? Does the dash lights still stay on when you try to crank it? You may have a sensor on the radiator tank that won't allow the starter to turn if the coolant is low (even on a mechanical engine). It should have a sight glass for the fluid level. If no 12V, pull battery connections and clean posts and terminals. No one accidentally kicked the salesperson switch?
Pierce
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 12:44:31 pm
300SE. Is this a CAT? Do you have 12V on the dash, headlights, etc? What happens when you turn the key to start? Does the dash lights still stay on when you try to crank it? You may have a sensor on the radiator tank that won't allow the starter to turn if the coolant is low (even on a mechanical engine). It should have a sight glass for the fluid level. If no 12V, pull battery connections and clean posts and terminals. No one accidentally kicked the salesperson switch?
Pierce
It's a Cummins M-11 We are on the phone with Brett right now. I think we are going to wait for the rig to cook down a bit and get some coolant in.
What is the salesperson switch? That's something new I've never heard of. You can never learn enough about these amazing machines 😂
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Michelle on June 11, 2023, 12:47:16 pm
Not sure if this is relevant info, but OP had starting issues 2 years ago and there doesn't appear to be a resolution posted:
What is the salesperson switch? That's something new I've never heard of. You can never learn enough about these amazing machines 😂
There is a switch by the entry door. It will kill most of the 12v in the coach. The switch that was in my old coach was a lever and you had to turn it maybe a quarter turn to turn on or off
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: AC7880 on June 11, 2023, 12:56:33 pm
If the engine will not turn over, you have an electrical problem. Tried the boost switch? Checked cables on start bank and on starter?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 01:00:28 pm
Yup. This was battery issues. Batteries were replaced and are in great condition. We just checked them too and all looks great.
Thanks everyone for your help! We appreciate this community so much and everyone's mechanical and detective skills. In our seven years of ownership we have learned SO much and can now trouble shoot many system problems on our own, but the engine things still baffle us sometimes 😂 I'm just so thankful to have you all in our corner. You come to the rescue and we learn something new every time!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 01:02:37 pm
There is a switch by the entry door. It will kill most of the 12v in the coach. The switch that was in my old coach was a lever and you had to turn it maybe a quarter turn to turn on or off
Ah...yes. We are familiar with the switch. Just didn't know it was called that 😂
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on June 11, 2023, 01:12:16 pm
Hope you work it out.
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Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 11, 2023, 01:18:01 pm
Is this M11 a mechanical or ECU controlled engine? This makes all the difference in how to trouble shoot your issue.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Michelle on June 11, 2023, 01:26:04 pm
There is a switch by the entry door. It will kill most of the 12v in the coach. The switch that was in my old coach was a lever and you had to turn it maybe a quarter turn to turn on or off
Isn't that solely for the coach 12V, not the chassis 12V?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Michelle on June 11, 2023, 01:29:42 pm
Oil level around half. We added oil just in case. Didn't see any fluids on the ground but we did notice the coolant reservoir was empty so Trent is filling it a bit by the capful right now. Rig is hot so we can't fill the main coolant tank.
Once you've verified the coolant situation, at some point in the near future if you notice the level in the overflow not changing, you may need a new radiator cap/hose. The overflow level should go up when the coach is hot and down when it's cool (sucking coolant into the main coolant tank). If the overflow level doesn't change, you're probably sucking air as the engine cools - either from a crack in the hose to the overflow or a failed recovery-style radiator cap.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 11, 2023, 01:33:15 pm
Once you've verified the coolant situation, at some point in the near future if you notice the level in the overflow not changing, you may need a new radiator cap/hose. The overflow level should go up when the coach is hot and down when it's cool (sucking coolant into the main coolant tank). If the overflow level doesn't change, you're probably sucking air as the engine cools - either from a crack in the hose to the overflow or a failed recovery-style radiator cap.
This is great info. Thanks! Very helpful.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 01:48:00 pm
This sounds like it's a battery cable connection problem unless there is an engine control module on their M11.
How do we know if there's an engine control module? I admit we don't know a whole lot about our engine. We usually get the help of more mechanically inclined people who know these engines. All I know is that we have an M11 with turbo added and that our coach was built in 1995.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 02:37:44 pm
So, for those wondering whether the engine is mechanical or ÉCU controlled, maybe the engine serial number might help to know what we've got. We honestly don't know. Serial #347 302 70 Engine Family: RCE661EJDARW Model M11 400
We are cleaning off some battery terminals on the starter batteries right now. We are getting full voltage at the ignition solenoid but 0 on voltage at the starter solenoid. So, trying to figure that out. My husband cleaned up a lot of things but didn't clean the starter battery terminals because he thought they looked okay. But here we are now cleaning them on the side of the road 😂
If anyone else gets an idea, keep ''em coming! Thanks for the help everyone :)
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: oldguy on June 11, 2023, 02:54:23 pm
I think all M11 have have an ECU. You need to have the black tank filled above the sensor. If you lift the bed there will be 2 solenoids one is the boost and the other is for the starter. If you know how to jump a solenoid do that and that will bypass all safeties.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 03:02:16 pm
I think all M11 have have an ECU. You need to have the black tank filled above the sensor. If you lift the bed there will be 2 solenoids one is the boost and the other is for the starter. If you know how to jump a solenoid do that and that will bypass all safeties.
A couple of times now the rig has started but our alarm continues along with the stop engine and ABS brake light. And then within less than a minute the whole rig just shuts down. So there is something that is just shutting it down every time and keeping it from starting at all at other times. We try to start it and it sounds like it's trying to but it won't fully start.
Where exactly is the sensor in the black tank because it's filled up to where we can see the level in the pour spout.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: John Duld on June 11, 2023, 03:43:02 pm
There was a module on the passengers side of the engine on my 1995 U320 M11 engine.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Herb Stark on June 11, 2023, 03:46:52 pm
Are you on a slope? If so you may have the fuel level low. See if generator will run to verify level. I killed my engine once on a steep driveway and had get fuel a gallon at a time to get about 5 more gallons in to get all running again.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: oldguy on June 11, 2023, 03:49:04 pm
The sensor is near the bottom of the tank so coolant isn't your problem.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 03:49:22 pm
Are you on a slope? If so you may have the fuel level low. See if generator will run to verify level. I killed my engine once on a steep driveway and had get fuel a gallon at a time to get about 5 more gallons in to get all running again.
Interesting. Nope. We aren't on a slope. We are driving pretty flat roads and our gas tank is full.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 11, 2023, 03:52:35 pm
To address a couple of posts, the 1995 U300/U320 are unique in that three different drivetrains were used that one year:
Early: Detroit Diesel 6V92 two stroke and 4 speed Allison Mid: Caterpillar 3176 and Allison 6 speed Later: Cummins M11 and Allison 6 speed
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 03:54:15 pm
Battery cables are a little "sus". Could this be our issue that would allow a start but send off alarms and then shut down?
ETA: my pictures don't seem to be working :/
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: oldguy on June 11, 2023, 03:59:49 pm
Right after trying to start if you go back and put your hands on the cables and ends, if something is warmer than the rest that is probably the problem.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 11, 2023, 04:04:12 pm
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 04:14:37 pm
WE did try the boost as well, but the alarm continues and the engine still shuts off after a short bit, so we can't even get down the road a little bit.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 11, 2023, 04:21:20 pm
WE did try the boost as well, but the alarm continues and the engine still shuts off after a short bit, so we can't even get down the road a little bit.
Now that this is all said, and you've checked the usual stuff: Your engine is still safety'd out to keep you from doing your engine harm.
What time is the mobil mechanic expected to arrive?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: erniee on June 11, 2023, 04:24:19 pm
Same thing happened to me. Take it to an Napa or o'reiley and they can make you one
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: erniee on June 11, 2023, 04:25:04 pm
Not getting sufficient voltage
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 11, 2023, 04:31:29 pm
I melted the main positive cable terminal on our U300 in Yellowstone in subfreezing weather. I used a pair of vicegrips to clamp the bad terminal to the cable and got it running. That and a pair of HD jumper cables can work wonders. Make sure to charge your batteries at the same time with the generator and boost switch on. If you get it fired up, leave the generator running until you can get to a place to make a repair. NAPA may be able to put a set of cables together for you in a few minutes, especially if they have truck parts.
Pierce
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 11, 2023, 04:35:23 pm
If you do have a low coolant sensor, you may have to have the proper level above the sensor or the engine many only run for 30 seconds and shut down to protect itself.
Pierce
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 11, 2023, 04:35:34 pm
Immediate emergency way to crank engine is to put 12volts on Aux Start Solenoid small wire connector. Better to remove existing small wire before jumping from any 12v source to prevent backfeed. This solenoid is usually located on isolator panel next to boost solenoid. Another way is to put 12 volts on starter's solenoid small wire post, usually located on top of starter.
Everyone should be aware of this engine crank method. This can get coach moving when problems exist with ignition switch, ignition relay, transmission neutral-start relay, etc.
If this coach has C8.3 engine it may be required to also cable tie the fuel shutoff solenoid in up position.
Good luck
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 11, 2023, 04:37:02 pm
Where can I even get a replacement for this cable?
You can cobble together a replacement for that cable using readily available parts from most auto parts stores. Look for battery terminals that have a bolt, to which you can attach short battery cables. See the links below for examples. Use your imagination!
This style would be best: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/super-start/super-start-zinc-bolt-type-universal-terminal/ss01/08808?q=military+battery+terminal&pos=2
This style would work: https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/super-start/super-start-marine-battery-terminal-epoxy-coated/ss01/08507?q=military+battery+terminal&pos=12
I melted the main positive cable terminal on our U300 in Yellowstone in subfreezing weather. I used a pair of vicegrips to clamp the bad terminal to the cable and got it running. That and a pair of HD jumper cables can work wonders. Make sure to charge your batteries at the same time with the generator and boost switch on. If you get it fired up, leave the generator running until you can get to a place to make a repair. NAPA may be able to put a set of cables together for you in a few minutes, especially if they have truck parts.
Pierce
It seems this is something we are going to have to do. Unfortunately it's Sunday and half the stores aren't even open. We are talking to Advance which seems to be the only one open and they don't seem to make them. They are trying to help us trouble shoot. We don't even have vice grips.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: erniee on June 11, 2023, 04:47:35 pm
It seems this is something we are going to have to do. Unfortunately it's Sunday and half the stores aren't even open. We are talking to Advance which seems to be the only one open and they don't seem to make them. They are trying to help us trouble shoot. We don't even have vice grips.
Advance sells vice grips and other tools
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 11, 2023, 04:48:00 pm
You can cobble together a replacement for that cable using readily available parts from most auto parts stores. Look for battery terminals that have a bolt, to which you can attach short battery cables. See the links below for examples. Use your imagination!
Yup. Combining multiple batteries is very common in a lot of applications-- golf carts, boats, RV's.
Main thing is to not try to diagnose all the electric "anomalies" until you have good solid voltage to the coach-- i.e. this battery issue fixed.
Also, battery boost solenoid is EASY to check to see if it is working: Boost switch off, one large lug will reflect chassis battery voltage, the other house battery voltage. Boost switch on and boost solenoid working, both large lugs will read the same, since its job is to make "one large battery bank from the two separate ones". If not working, try rapping on it with the plastic handle of a screw driver. OR, just remove one battery cable from one side of the boost solenoid and ADD IT to the other large lug. Now you have mechanically done exactly what the boost solenoid does with it is working.
OK with generator running and inverter/charger charging the house bank, that bank should be around 14 VDC. With boost working/worked around, the chassis battery side should be close to the same thing. Yes, if the chassis battery is deeply discharged, your inverter/charger panel will jump up to high amps. Normal. Wait until amps drop off to below 15 amps (volts still around 14) and try to start again.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 11, 2023, 04:59:04 pm
You have 3 start batteries, check each one while you have the positive cable disconnected. Make sure that one of them isn't defective, should read about 12.5 v or at last above 12 with a good meter. If you can't get another cable ( doesn't have to be exactly the same - just connect the 3 batteries) put that one back on the best you can, one of you squeeze the broken terminals with standard pliers or channel locks while the other starts the generator and turns on the boost switch. If your 3 start batteries are good and the battery terminals are clean and reasonably tight, with the genset running and boost switch on the engine should start and stay running as long as the generator is running.
Unless you have other issues........ :(
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 11, 2023, 05:09:04 pm
Yup, but do NOT start chasing the "other issues" until you know you are "feeding them the proper food"= 12.2- 14 VDC.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: SteveB on June 11, 2023, 06:54:02 pm
Once you get the battery/start issue corrected you can probably use your SilverLeaf diagnostics to determine what is causing your check engine light to come on. If you are lucky everything will work just like fine and you will just have a lot of low voltage codes stored in memory and no active codes. Hoping for the best!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 07:28:41 pm
Once you get the battery/start issue corrected you can probably use your SilverLeaf diagnostics to determine what is causing your check engine light to come on. If you are lucky everything will work just like fine and you will just have a lot of low voltage codes stored in memory and no active codes. Hoping for the best!
Well, we replaced the battery cables and the boost solenoid. Started her up and she started really quick without any hesitation, but the error lights stayed on and eventually the coach shut down just like before. Not sure our SIlverleaf even has the time to register what's going on. How would we read those codes? WE've only ever used the Silverleaf for the real-time gauges.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Dakota Slim on June 11, 2023, 07:51:17 pm
Oil level around half. We added oil just in case. Didn't see any fluids on the ground but we did notice the coolant reservoir was empty so Trent is filling it a bit by the capful right now. Rig is hot so we can't fill the main coolant tank. Going to check belts and batteries.
When the engine cooled down did you open the radiator cap and check/top off the coolant level? Did you ever see smoke as this incident unfolded?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 07:59:06 pm
When the engine cooled down did you open the radiator cap and check/top off the coolant level? Did you ever see smoke as this incident unfolded?
Yes. When it was cool we removed the cap and it was full. There was never any smoke. At this point we are chasing down an electrical issue.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: oldguy on June 11, 2023, 09:03:05 pm
I think you click on the diagnostic link and see what comes up.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 09:05:33 pm
Trying to think of other possible factors since we returned to our coach and began getting her road ready. This past week we took her for a trip to Lowes to get some stuff and see how she was running. She started without incident when my husband turned the key and I followed along behind him to the store. While going down the highway one exit I saw a black strip of something fall out from behind the rig. I wasn't sure if it was something falling off the rig or something in the road my husband ran over but when we arrived at Lowes I told him about it. We opened up the back and didn't immediately see anything. The next morning though, as Trent was working on checking out the rig he came across our old tow trailer hitch light hookups and they looked like this and were hanging. I am thinking what I saw was something from this. There is a part that looked as if it had an electrical short and burned up. Could this be causing our electrical issues? He just cut the wires and tied the loose ends up since we are not currently using a tow dolly and don't need it.
Before starting we checked the ignition solenoid and it was at 12.64 and when we started it went down to zero. However we tried it again just now and the solenoid didn't lose much power at all and the coach started right up and the lights even went off. Then, within a few seconds the lights came back on and the alarm too. It seems to be an intermittent issue, which is making it really hard to figure out. Brett thinks there is something electrical that is failing. We just can't trace it down to where. We plan on camping out on the entrance ramp here like a semi for the night and hoping we don't get a visit from the police. WE can get back to searching out our problems in the morning. It would be nice to get the rig working just enough to get it somewhere safe to diagnose the issue further.
And for those of you who believe in the power of prayer, we could sure use your prayers right now. Thanks for all your help.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 09:17:40 pm
I just checked the diagnostic on the Silverleaf and it does show "ENG SID 251 4 Power Supply - Low Voltage".
I don't really know what that means other than the obvious that we have already discovered "low voltage." I'm not sure what the rest of it means. If anyone has any insight, please do enlighten us. Thanks!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 11, 2023, 09:22:26 pm
I just checked the diagnostic on the Silverleaf and it does show "ENG SID 251 4 Power Supply - Low Voltage".
I don't really know what that means other than the obvious that we have already discovered "low voltage." I'm not sure what the rest of it means. If anyone has any insight, please do enlighten us. Thanks!
I was having that low voltage code pop up on my VMSpc. But the check engine light never came on. I stopped into a cummins shop in Boise. They said its kind of a catch all code that doesn't really point to the cause. But said it is generally the code thrown when the engine ECM's internal clock looses power and or the clocks internal backup battery is kaput. In my case. When we got home. I did a big cleanup on all the battery cables. To include leads going to the isolator and starter. Haven't had the code since. Found the Cummins fault code PDF and 251 is "real time clock power interrupt"
And prayers sent your way.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: turbojack on June 11, 2023, 09:37:02 pm
Found this
SID 251 = Injector Power Supply or ECM measured injector boost voltage is low.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 11, 2023, 09:41:08 pm
I don't know where to look for it, but if the M11 engine ECM is accessible, it wouldn't hurt to try pulling the electrical harness connector off, check the condition of the pins, and then plug the connector back in.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 09:41:49 pm
Yes! I found this thread too when I googled the code. Trent is back in there in the dark right now checking to see if he can find the ECM connections and see any obvious issues. IF not, we will chill on the side of the ramp tonight and maybe see where our closest Cummins shop is in the morning.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 09:43:09 pm
I don't know where to look for it, but if the M11 engine ECM is accessible, it wouldn't hurt to try pulling the electrical harness connector off, check the condition of the pins, and then plug the connector back in.
Yup. That's what he's looking to do right now. I found a couple of pictures and threads saying it was back near the radiator on the passenger side. I hope they find it and find something easy.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: oldguy on June 11, 2023, 09:45:38 pm
The ecm is on the left side of the engine right side of the coach and is accessed under the bed. I have had the connectors off but it isn't easy.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 11, 2023, 09:47:18 pm
Siobhan, where are you located? Maybe there is a forum member near enough to offer a second set of eyes and could offer some help.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: bigdog on June 11, 2023, 09:48:48 pm
The ecm is on the left side of the engine right side of the coach and is accessed under the bed. I have had the connectors off but it isn't easy.
Yeah...we will have to wait until the morning if it's under the bed as our kids are in bed already. It's probably best to wait until then so we can get a good night's rest and start fresh tomorrow.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 11, 2023, 09:55:04 pm
Siobhan, where are you located? Maybe there is a forum member near enough to offer a second set of eyes and could offer some help.
WE are just outside of Richmond, VA. I found a senior member that is on the other side of Richmond and he even has the same coach as us. But he hasn't been active since March. I sent him a message, so we will see. We also have a friend back in my parents' town of Waynesboro where we set off from today who drove tour buses for years and has lots of experience with this kind of stuff who may be able to come and help us troubleshoot some more tomorrow.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pamela & Mike on June 11, 2023, 09:56:04 pm
Have you read this thread yet? Cummins M11 ECM Fuses (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=24498.0) Look for a bad fuse holder also. Mike
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 06:37:53 am
If you look at the 3rd pic my fingers are on the fuse holders. That loom is right where the engine/trans is bolted together. The older M-11 may be slightly different spot but should be close.
Mike
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 07:01:41 am
I don't know where to look for it, but if the M11 engine ECM is accessible, it wouldn't hurt to try pulling the electrical harness connector off, check the condition of the pins, and then plug the connector back in.
I don't know where to look for it, but if the M11 engine ECM is accessible, it wouldn't hurt to try pulling the electrical harness connector off, check the condition of the pins, and then plug the connector back in.
We did end up pulling the bed up last night and found a connector from the ECM and it was all taped up with electrical tape. We unwound it and pulled it apart. Looked like this:
The inside pins looked a little funky so I cleaned them up with a sewing needle and we put it back together. Started the engine and it fired right up without any lights or alarms. Engine ran for a few minutes and then we decided to check the voltage at the ignition solenoid because that's where we were seeing a drop in voltage yesterday that would lead to the lights coming on. As soon as we touched the voltmeter to the solenoid and ground the lights and alarm came on. Maybe it was just a timing coincidence and whatever we had done with the connector wasn't going to last, but could it be that we just tripped something when we tried to check the solenoid at the dash?
Also, I've seen several people mention the ECM fuses and to check those but I don't really know where to find those. Trent is already outside this morning cleaning more connections. Lots of rust and dust to work through when a rig has been sitting like ours has 😞. I guess Trent just came in and said there is a fuse in the connector that we pulled apart last night? Or are there separate fuses we should be looking for as well? Gosh, so many little parts and things to check. I feel like it's one little thing and we are trying to find a needle in a haystack.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 07:02:38 am
If you look at the 3rd pic my fingers are on the fuse holders. That loom is right where the engine/trans is bolted together. The older M-11 may be slightly different spot but should be close.
Mike
This may be the part we already found and cleaned up the pins on last night. Can you look at my pictures above and verify?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 07:08:18 am
Adding this photo as well for those who know diagnostics. After we looked on the Silverleaf last night and found that code I had posted I went into the code history and found this mess from our initial breakdown on the side of the road at 11:44. So many codes! But, looking back it seems like this same mess of codes has happened before when we have had other electrical/battery/alternator issues that popped up. I am guessing that when a big event happens it can throw out a whole chain of codes that are related to one another? It still starts with that "Low Voltage" code.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pamela & Mike on June 12, 2023, 07:09:32 am
Somewhere in that loom that is just below where the 1st pic. shows all those tie wraps should be a blade type fuse holder. If not in that area I have no idea where they hid them.
Mike
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 07:28:23 am
Currently cleaning up the connections from the alternator. They are pretty cruddy and one wire just snapped in half as soon as Trent grabbed onto it. That could be the whole source of "low voltage" couldn't it?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 08:03:26 am
Somewhere in that loom that is just below where the 1st pic. shows all those tie wraps should be a blade type fuse holder. If not in that area I have no idea where they hid them.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: erniee on June 12, 2023, 08:07:42 am
Canon connector.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2023, 08:08:07 am
Siobhan,
In your photos from last night, that does look like the right kind of connector for something going to the ECM. That is called a Weather Pack connector. It is gummy inside because when they put them together at the factory they put dielectric grease inside. Helps keep them water tight.
What Trent is looking for is a similar type connector, but with only two wires, both entering the connector from one end. The other end is like a cap. When you pull the cap off you will see a small blade type fuse. There should be two of these fuse holders in close proximity to each other.
Look at the link I provided in Reply #59. In that thread, toward the end, there are 3 photos. The 2nd photo shows the 2 OEM fuse holders. Peter replaced both OEM fuse holders with the items shown in the 3rd photo. If it turns out you need new ones, you should find these replacement fuse holders at the Advance auto parts store.
Look at the link Mike supplied in Reply # 70. His 3rd photo shows the 2 fuse holders.
In both of the photos referenced above, it looks like the wires entering the fuse holders are ORANGE. The holders on your coach may or may not be similar, but tell Trent to keep his eyes open for orange wires.
Keep up the good work. You guys are a AWESOME team, and I know you can figure out this mystery!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2023, 08:12:04 am
Currently cleaning up the connections from the alternator. They are pretty cruddy and one wire just snapped in half as soon as Trent grabbed onto it. That could be the whole source of "low voltage" couldn't it?
The answer depends on which wire it was that snapped in half. I assume it was one of the small wires. Repairing that wire is certainly a step in the right direction, even if it doesn't completely solve your present problem.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 08:20:50 am
In your photos from last night, that does look like the right kind of connector for something going to the ECM. That is called a Weather Pack connector. It is gummy inside because when they put then together at the factory they put dielectric grease inside. Helps keep them water tight.
What Trent is looking for is a similar type connector, but with only two wires, both entering the connector from one end. The other end is like a cap. When you pull the cap off you will see a small blade type fuse. There should be two of these fuse holders in close proximity to each other.
Look at the link I provided in Reply #59. In that thread, toward the end, there are 3 photos. The 2nd photo shows the 2 OEM fuse holders. Peter replaced both OEM fuse holders with the item shown in the 3rd photo. If it turns out you need new ones, you should find these replacement fuse holders at the Advance auto parts store.
Look at the link Mike supplied in Reply # 70. His 3rd photo shows the 2 fuse holders.
In both of the photos referenced above, it looks like the wires entering the fuse holders are ORANGE. The holders on your coach may or may not be similar, but tell Trent to keep his eyes open for orange wires.
Keep up the good work. You guys are a AWESOME team, and I know you can figure out this mystery!
Found this one by the starter batteries with orange wires. Can't find anything in the engine compartment near the ECM.
Found this one by the starter batteries with orange wires. Can't find anything in the engine compartment near the ECM.
That is definitely a fuse holder. Is it the one supplying power to the engine ECM? I don't know. Check the condition of the wires going into the end of the holder. Remove the cap and check the fuse. If it is blown, you'll need to get a replacement. Get several while you're at it, so you have spares on hand.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 08:48:44 am
That is definitely a fuse holder. Is it the one supplying power to the engine ECM? I don't know. Check the condition of the wires going into the end of the holder. Remove the cap and check the fuse. If it is blown, you'll need to get a replacement. Get several while you're at it, so you have spares on hand.
Wires look good. Fuse is good. It's literally the only fuse holder we can find. It's connected to some Racor prime button and the starter battery.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 12, 2023, 08:53:30 am
Currently cleaning up the connections from the alternator. They are pretty cruddy and one wire just snapped in half as soon as Trent grabbed onto it. That could be the whole source of "low voltage" couldn't it?
Though likely a problem (in terms of alternator output), since you have the generator running and powering the inverter charger which charges the house bank and the boost switch on charging the chassis battery this is likely NOT the cause of your current issues.
Said simply, your voltage readings at the batteries do not indicate that voltage is the problem. That voltage getting to all the right places-- likely IS.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 08:55:34 am
Maybe someone with eagle eyes can spot a fuse holder in these photos of the engine compartment? I'm trying to look according to everyone's suggestions but I am not finding anything. It's probably staring right at me or something.
Though likely a problem (in terms of alternator output), since you have the generator running and powering the inverter charger which charges the house bank and the boost switch on charging the chassis battery this is likely NOT the cause of your current issues.
Said simply, your voltage readings at the batteries do not indicate that voltage is the problem. That voltage getting to all the right places-- likely IS.
Brett, could it be that our inverter charger isn't working properly? How might we know whether it is or not?
Here is a photo of the interface. I'm not even really sure how that whole system works.
Maybe someone with eagle eyes can spot a fuse holder in these photos of the engine compartment? I'm trying to look according to everyone's suggestions but I am not finding anything.
I can't see anything in the photo, but if your coach is the same as Mike's and Peter's, then the fuses should be somewhere around the area indicated by the arrows. They may be completely covered up with electric tape, or hidden inside some of the ribbed plastic wire protector.
Also, you might look for them down in the area around the starter motor. This is just a guess...and not too likely, because it gets really hot around the starter. Wouldn't be a great place to have a fuse holder.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 12, 2023, 09:34:27 am
Your voltage reading of over 13 VDC say that the charger function IS working. Reading voltage at the house battery with your digital voltmeter to confirm. And to confirm that boost is working, that same voltage reading should be at the chassis batteries as well.
Said another way, you have already confirmed by checking each chassis battery separately that none have a dead cell. And that your current readings are showing batteries connected to the inverter/charger (either directly or through boost switch) are fully charged and that the inverter/charger has gone (as it should) into FLOAT MODE.
One other easy test the next time you try to start it is for you to monitor voltage at the chassis batteries while someone else tries to start it. This will verify that you are not just reading a surface charge from the inverter/charger but that the batteries are actually good.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 10:36:55 am
I can't see anything in the photo, but if your coach is the same as Mike's and Peter's, then the fuses should be somewhere around the area indicated by the arrows. They may be completely covered up with electric tape, or hidden inside some of the ribbed plastic wire protector.
Also, you might look for them down in the area around the starter motor. This is just a guess...and not too likely, because it gets really hot around the starter. Wouldn't be a great place to have a fuse holder.
WE finally found one fuse holder so far. How many should we be looking for? This one had black wires coming out.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: bigdog on June 12, 2023, 10:51:19 am
As you have now found that the alt, batteries and inverter/charger are working. Your next step should be to pull the batt cables all along their run (not just at the batteries) and wire brush them. You have a low voltage fault code and that's usually caused by high resistance in the power feed. A dirty/corroded connection will cause said high resistance and lower the voltage.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 11:10:46 am
As you have now found that the alt, batteries and inverter/charger are working. Your next step should be to pull the batt cables all along their run (not just at the batteries) and wire brush them. You have a low voltage fault code and that's usually caused by high resistance in the power feed. A dirty/corroded connection will cause said high resistance and lower the voltage.
Yes, I believe Brett has been saying the same thing. We are now moving onto cleaning up the starter and then the isolator next.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: bigdog on June 12, 2023, 11:24:10 am
Let's pray that this will be the fix. ^.^d As it's cheap and not too hard to do.
So....he got to the isolator and it looks like the corner may have caught on fire or something and when he went to unscrew the badly rusted bolts the whole post came off. I think we have a problem here. Where/how might we get an isolator replacement and what may have caused a possible fire at some point? I would hate to put a new one in to find that it catches fire.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 12, 2023, 11:40:23 am
The battery isolator is NOT a critical part of getting the rig started/running.
Short term fix so that you don't hurt the alternator is to wire the wire from the alternator B+ to the wire on the isolator going to the chassis battery. Your wiring diagram has the numbers on it, or just trace the large-gauge wires. Even a bolt holding the two together will work. Slip an old piece of rubber hose or something over the connection so no chance of that connection touching/grounding on any nearby piece of metal.
The component in the bottom of the photo labeled "start" is also in terrible condition and should be replaced. Likely the start solenoid.
Basically clean up anything that looks that gnarly.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 12:03:42 pm
The battery isolator is NOT a critical part of getting the rig started/running.
Short term fix so that you don't hurt the alternator is to wire the wire from the alternator B+ to the wire on the isolator going to the chassis battery. Your wiring diagram has the numbers on it, or just trace the large-gauge wires. Even a bolt holding the two together will work. Slip an old piece of rubber hose or something over the connection so no chance of that connection touching/grounding on any nearby piece of metal.
The component in the bottom of the photo labeled "start" is also in terrible condition and should be replaced. Likely the start solenoid.
Basically clean up anything that looks that gnarly.
Okay. Found those wires and connecting them now. Will clean up the start solenoid as well. Is that something we can purchase locally maybe in Richmond? Is it readily available or is it something that needs to be ordered? WE do have the boost solenoid that we replaced with a new one yesterday but it looks way better than this. Could we use that if we can't get anything locally?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2023, 12:07:53 pm
The component in the bottom of the photo labeled "start" is also in terrible condition and should be replaced.
X2 on what Brett says - replace that aux start solenoid.
You said in Reply #53 that "we replaced the battery cables and the boost solenoid". What was the part or model number solenoid that you used for the new boost solenoid? You should be able to use the same one to replace the aux start solenoid.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2023, 12:11:02 pm
WE do have the boost solenoid that we replaced with a new one yesterday but it looks way better than this. Could we use that if we can't get anything locally?
Yes, that would work.
The boost solenoid and the aux start solenoid are usually interchangeable. For future reference, the model most recommended on the Forum is linked below. You aren't likely to find it in the local auto parts stores, but you could get lucky.
The boost solenoid and the aux start solenoid are usually interchangeable. For future reference, the model most recommended on the Forum is linked below. You aren't likely to find it in the local auto parts stores, but you could get lucky.
We just sent our son running down to a local auto part store (that was closed yesterday) that was a little over half mile away with the part and they had one that they had special ordered that the person hadn't picked up. Fortunate for us! Unfortunately the auto parts store sell these for $80 when Amazon has the exact same one for $46 if we had the time to wait until it arrived on Wednesday :/
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 01:30:13 pm
Yes Your boost solenoid will work for your start solenoid.
The old boost solenoid that we took off was too stripped and had a bolt we couldn't get off so we got a new one.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 12, 2023, 02:37:45 pm
So starts and runs then shuts down. Low coolant sensor failure will cause it to start run 30 seconds and ECM shuts it down . Enough to move from roadway. Engine life saving program. Stop trying to fix everything, that is for next week. Salesman switch just turn it off. If it starts the battery cable condition is good enough. Stop worrying about it. Getting back to your current issue. Starts , runs for 120 seconds and shuts off. Stop engine light illuminated? Check engine light illuminated? If it is this may be an engine life saving function doing its job. Do you have a scan tool for the engine? Scan faults record and erase. Loosing batteries while operation will induce many low voltage faults. If you dont have a scan tool, now is the time to get one. Guessing for a resolution may work but will cost a fortune. ECM could be seeing any sort of fault now and just trying to do its programed job. ECM may have been faulted by the low voltage also. My fuses are in view in that one engine ECM photo kinda hidden in that loop of wires and lines. 2001 ISM. Four to six fuses. Dont actually recall. Almost under the intake tube to intercooler. So sorry and understand the stress.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2023, 02:46:12 pm
Where/how might we get an isolator replacement... ...what may have caused a possible fire at some point?
No telling what happened to the old isolator. It was WAY overdue for replacement, so RIP.
When you removed the trashed isolator, Brett had you connect the alternator output cable to the start battery cable. That way, the alternator will directly charge the start batteries. If you engage your boost switch, then both battery banks will be charged by the alternator. This will work fine for as long as you need to go without an isolator, so you can take your time shopping.
The old isolator had 4 posts on it, but two of them were connected together with a jumper. When you go looking for a replacement, all you need is one with 3 posts: ALT, BAT1 and BAT2. Get one rated for at least 200A. Links below to a couple popular units. If you have time to order it and wait for delivery, I would recommend the Victron ArgoFET. If you are in a hurry, you might find the Cole Hersee at a local parts store.
Amazon.com: Victron Energy Argofet Battery Isolators 200-2AC (2 Batteries... (https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Energy-Battery-Isolator-Batt/dp/B00NT9MTMQ?th=1)
No telling what happened to the old isolator. It was WAY overdue for replacement, so RIP.
When you removed the trashed isolator, Brett had you connect the alternator output cable to the start battery cable. That way, the alternator will directly charge the start batteries. If you engage your boost switch, then both battery banks will be charged by the alternator. This will work fine for as long as you need to go without an isolator, so you can take your time shopping.
The old isolator had 4 posts on it, but two of them were connected together with a jumper. When you go looking for a replacement, all you need is one with 3 posts: ALT, BAT1 and BAT2. Get one rated for at least 200A. Links below to a couple popular units. If you have time to order it and wait for delivery, I would recommend the Victron ArgoFET. If you are in a hurry, you might find the Cole Hersee at a local parts store.
Amazon.com: Victron Energy Argofet Battery Isolators 200-2AC (2 Batteries... (https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Energy-Battery-Isolator-Batt/dp/B00NT9MTMQ?th=1)
We didn't remove the trashed isolator. Brett said it was okay to just connect the two cables on the post with the cable going to the chassis battery.
It still won't start without the engine stop light coming on and the engine shutting down. Trent just took the start batteries out to take them down to the auto part store down the road and get them professionally tested. We just aren't getting enough voltage and can't get rid of the stop engine light and the automatic shut-down.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 03:07:34 pm
So starts and runs then shuts down. Low coolant sensor failure will cause it to start run 30 seconds and ECM shuts it down . Enough to move from roadway. Engine life saving program. Stop trying to fix everything, that is for next week. Salesman switch just turn it off. If it starts the battery cable condition is good enough. Stop worrying about it. Getting back to your current issue. Starts , runs for 120 seconds and shuts off. Stop engine light illuminated? Check engine light illuminated? If it is this may be an engine life saving function doing its job. Do you have a scan tool for the engine? Scan faults record and erase. Loosing batteries while operation will induce many low voltage faults. If you dont have a scan tool, now is the time to get one. Guessing for a resolution may work but will cost a fortune. ECM could be seeing any sort of fault now and just trying to do its programed job. ECM may have been faulted by the low voltage also. My fuses are in view in that one engine ECM photo kinda hidden in that loop of wires and lines. 2001 ISM. Four to six fuses. Dont actually recall. Almost under the intake tube to intercooler. So sorry and understand the stress.
We have a silver leaf diagnostic tool on the rig and I posted all of the error codes a bit back in this thread. The first time when we broke down yesterday it caused a whole bunch of codes to come up and since then when we try to start it we get the "low voltage" error code.
We would love to worry about fixing the problems next week, but we are over an hour from home and need to get this rig back so we can check through everything. If we could just get the coach down the road it would be nice. My husband just took the batteries over to the auto parts store down the road to get them professionally tested to see if one or more is not working. They were brand new before we stored the RV for 2 years and we're left on a trickle charger so they should not be dead, right?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 03:10:34 pm
Trent just got back from the auto parts store and the batteries are fine. So frustrated trying to track this down. We have cleaned or replaced so much and we just need to get back to my parents' house so we can work on it.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 12, 2023, 03:23:57 pm
Maybe a member with a M11 will chime in here, I have a Cummins 8.3 mechanical engine so I'm not familiar with a M11. Can you run a wire directly from the chassis battery to power the ECM? (with an inline fuse for protection of course) without seeing a wiring diagram of your coach, I have no idea from where the power is sourced for your ECM, could be something as simple as a connection somewhere in your wiring harness. Thinking this would eliminate a low voltage condition at the ECM.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 12, 2023, 03:41:30 pm
Maybe a member with a M11 will chime in here, I have a Cummins 8.3 mechanical engine so I'm not familiar with a M11. Can you run a wire directly from the chassis battery to power the ECM? (with an inline fuse for protection of course) without seeing a wiring diagram of your coach, I have no idea from where the power is sourced for your ECM, could be something as simple as a connection somewhere in your wiring harness. Thinking this would eliminate a low voltage condition at the ECM.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck Van Tassel on June 12, 2023, 04:02:35 pm
I also have 1995 M11 Cummins and was getting ready to go to on trip, went out the night before to start it. It started, ran 20-30 seconds and died. Changed Fuel filters, started up, drove 2 miles, died again. This time it would roll over but no start. Coachnet towed to Cummins in Houston, Bad ECM and fuel solenoid shorted. No ECM available, as it was too old. Cummins rebuild approximate turn around 2 weeks Or Ignition King in Santa Fe, Texas could rebuild it and have it to us the next day. Cummins was Twice the cost of Ignition King. Decided Cummins for warranty on road. Bad decision! 6 weeks later got RV back. Runs great now. Don't know if this could be your problem. Good Luck!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 12, 2023, 04:30:44 pm
Yes saw the codes. But you also had a power failure issue during that event. Those all need to be erased and a new base for faults with a properly operating battery system. This is to delete all those nuisance faults that are just a distraction to your problem. Work the new engine faults that are displayed now you have resolved your power problem. When I got my coach the ECM had a platform failure and was junk. The new rebuilt ECM is not new. It has been cleared and had a new overwrite of its information, today my ECM still shows a total life of like 950K miles and the lifetime fuel economy stays at 6.6. Penciled and paper shows otherwise. But you need to determine that before you replace. You are receiving a stop engine signal and that is what needs to be resolved. I dont own a silverleaf and am unfamiliar with its actual capabilities.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2023, 04:45:51 pm
Unfortunately, that diagram is of no use in this situation. What you really need is the diagram of the interface between the coach wiring and the engine ECM. I looked in the Forum library and I don't think we have the right document for your early model M11. There is one for the ISM450. I linked to it below. It is VERY complicated. I don't think even the correct diagram would be much help, at least to me.
I certainly would advise against trying to power the ECM with a jumper wire - way too much chance of disaster.
I also have 1995 M11 Cummins and was getting ready to go to on trip, went out the night before to start it. It started, ran 20-30 seconds and died. Changed Fuel filters, started up, drove 2 miles, died again. This time it would roll over but no start. Coachnet towed to Cummins in Houston, Bad ECM and fuel solenoid shorted. No ECM available, as it was too old. Cummins rebuild approximate turn around 2 weeks Or Ignition King in Santa Fe, Texas could rebuild it and have it to us the next day. Cummins was Twice the cost of Ignition King. Decided Cummins for warranty on road. Bad decision! 6 weeks later got RV back. Runs great now. Don't know if this could be your problem. Good Luck!
This is what I'm afraid of. Isn't it a super big expense for new or rebuilt ECM? I'm just so frustrated because it was enough of an expense to get our whole family back to the mainland (we live as missionaries in Hawaii) for the summer and we had planned to spend time in the RV adventuring together because it's just what we really needed but we didn't plan for thousands more to put into the coach to just get it drivable. *sigh* It was much easier when we were fulltiming to keep up with this coach. Now it's becoming more of a money pit to keep up for the summers when we want to use it. We were thinking about selling it at the end of summer but its current condition isn't really sellable now :((( Ugh...I'm just in a bad mood after being cooped up in the coach on the side of the road with all five of my sons for two days straight. I need to just get my mind off of it for a bit. I'm just hoping my husband can limp her back to my parents' driveway without causing any further issues.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck Van Tassel on June 12, 2023, 05:01:07 pm
Cummins was$2400 + diagnostic +fuel solenoid $5400. Ignition King $1200 ECM only
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on June 12, 2023, 05:01:17 pm
It's easy to lose hope when you're stranded like we are. Do not lose hope. Just try not to do anything dumb like I did and wait for the right answer. Why are you guys still on the side of the road do you not have towing assistance? It may be that you're going to have to put some money into it, and then if you choose I'm sure you could find another owner that will appreciate it as much as you do.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 12, 2023, 05:09:19 pm
Siobhan,
We feel your pain, but we (the Forum members) are reaching the end of the standard suggestions for roadside breakdown repair. It is much easier dealing with the older all-mechanical engines. Once computers and electronic ECMs enter the picture, it becames more complicated. It is possible that a knowledgeable mobile mechanic, armed with the proper diagnostic tools and software, could quickly pinpoint your exact problem. Of course, identifying the problem, and fixing it, are two very different things. But one must precede the other.
You may have to resort to seeking assistance from a mobile technician to get the coach moving again. Either that, or get it towed.
Sorry. I'm not wanting to sound like a pessimist, but that's the way I see it.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 12, 2023, 05:16:54 pm
IMO, getting good steady 12+ VDC to the starter AND to the front of the coach is job one. When turning the key to the first position takes voltage at the ignition solenoid from 12 to 0, do not expect anything to work properly.
Trying to diagnose computer or sensor issues with incorrect voltage supplied to them can lead to a lot of false "rabbit holes".
After the basic electrical issues are resolved, absolutely the next step is to clear and recheck for diagnostic codes-- engine and transmission.
Many have mentioned the engine codes.
The transmission codes are even easier to access: Turn ignition key on (so transmission shift pad illuminates) Press the up and down arrows on the shift pad at the same time. That will either bring up d-1 OR on newer ECU's it will bring up OL. If OL, merely press the up and down arrows again at the same time.
Now, d-1 will come up and will display the first diagnostic code, Just write it down-- refer to your Allison owners manual or online. If there is no diagnostic code you will get d-1 followed by - -.
If there is a code for d-1, press the mode button to bring up d-2. Continue until you get d- "something" - -.
Turn off the key. You are done.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on June 12, 2023, 05:23:25 pm
I would say that the members of The forum gave you more than just standard answers. That's why this forum is so fantastic . At this point I would think about your family's safety and get the coach towed. Either back home or somewhere where it's safe. Real sorry this happened to you guys. I do like Scott's answer about clearing all the codes and then starting from fresh if possible. I'm wondering if it's just a simple ground issue? Did you ever find out what that wire was that disintegrated when he touched it? The first fuse holder that you found near the batteries is for your racor fuel filter pump. Would the ECM even work at all and give error codes if the fuses are blown? Maybe that's why there were three? If you have it towed to a repair place make sure first it will work on an rv. Many truck places will not. This would be a good place for the bus Grease monkey but he's in Tennessee. Good luck and I hope this nightmare ends soon for you.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 12, 2023, 08:09:17 pm
Siobhan Understand that this is a totally different problem but I thought it may give you a little hope for a good outcome. Three years ago we were stuck with a non moveable coach, fortunately we were at a National Forest campground but were being forced to move because our site was booked to someone else. The day we planned to leave the Alison shift pad was totally blank, dark, nothing and no warning. It would start and run but no go! I had made plans for a tow and booked a flight for my wife and son to fly back home. I was going to have the coach towed to a RV park with hookups for a week while waiting on the shift pad to be repaired. I would then drive the 525 miles back home a week later. But, a week later I would still have the same problem, it wasn't the shift pad. Total cost was going to be $2000 - $3000, with the tow,campground fees, shift pad repair and flight for two back to Florida. I kept trouble shooting asking questions here on the forum. The fix? a broken ground wire behind the fiberglass panel in the storage bay next to the inverter.
Here is the link from 3 years ago. Need Help...... Allison Keypad, dark......... (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=39821.0)
Keep your spirits high and never give up.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 13, 2023, 08:51:14 am
Trent & Siobhan,
How is it going this morning? Any progress to report? I keep hoping your engine will magically "cure" itself, at least temporarily.
I have been trying to research this problem online. I'm sure you have been doing the same thing. I keep seeing reference to the fact that the low coolant sensor is a common cause of problems in all kinds of trucks and RVs. For instance, see below link. I know it is a different engine, but the important part is the list of three common "engine quits" causes:
In my reading online, I see that on many occasions, although the coolant reservoir is actually full of liquid, the low level sensor still thinks it is empty. In other words, the sensor gives a faulty signal. The standard fix is to replace the sensor. BUT, if this is not possible, it seems that in some cases the sensor can be bypassed or taken out of the loop. Doing so MAY allow the engine to start and continue running. It DOESN'T work in every case. Removing or bypassing the sensor may prevent the engine from starting at all. If it does start and continue running, the ECM may "derate" the engine power and only allow limited RPM or speed. However, that would still hopefully allow you to move the coach to better location.
If you want to try it, you'll need to look at the sensor to see what is required to bypass it. Does it have a one-piece electric plug connection of some sort, or two separate wires connected to prongs on the sensor. If it is a single plug, you could try just disconnecting the plug, then see if the engine will start and keep running. If it starts but then stops again, the next step is to connect the two wires together to close the sensor circuit. If it is a plug, just use a little piece of wire inserted in the plug holes to complete the circuit. If you have two separate wires just tie the ends together somehow to complete the circuit. Try again to start and see what happens.
I know this is a long shot, but it's the best I have come up with in my research. Worst case scenario, bypassing the sensor will keep the engine from even trying to start, but that won't hurt anything. If that happens, just put the sensor connector back on and forget this idea.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 09:08:48 am
How is it going this morning? Any progress to report? I keep hoping your engine will magically "cure" itself, at least temporarily.
I have been trying to research this problem online. I'm sure you have been doing the same thing. I keep seeing reference to the fact that the low coolant sensor is a common cause of problems in all kinds of trucks and RVs. For instance, see below link. I know it is a different engine, but the important part is the list of three common "engine quits" causes:
In my reading online, I see that on many occasions, although the coolant reservoir is actually full of liquid, the low level sensor still thinks it is empty. In other words, the sensor gives a faulty signal. The standard fix is to replace the sensor. BUT, if this is not possible, it seems that in some cases the sensor can be bypassed or taken out of the loop. Doing so MAY allow the engine to start and continue running. It DOESN'T work in every case. Removing or bypassing the sensor may prevent the engine from starting at all. If it does start and continue running, the ECM may "derate" the engine power and only allow limited RPM or speed. However, that would still hopefully allow you to move the coach to better location.
If you want to try it, you'll need to look at the sensor to see what is required to bypass it. Does it have a one-piece electric plug connection of some sort, or two separate wires connected to prongs on the sensor. If it is a single plug, you could try just disconnecting the plug, then see if the engine will start and keep running. If it starts but then stops again, the next step is to connect the two wires together to close the sensor circuit. If it is a plug, just use a little piece of wire inserted in the plug holes to complete the circuit. If you have two separate wires just tie the ends together somehow to complete the circuit. Try again to start and see what happens.
I know this is a long shot, but it's the best I have come up with in my research. Worst case scenario, bypassing the sensor will keep the engine from even trying to start, but that won't hurt anything. If that happens, just put the sensor connector back on and forget this idea.
When I had my bad sensor I tried to bypass it. I was unable too. I was real serious and confident I could, but could not. It would start run and shut down after thirty seconds. I carry a spare because of this and reccomend any ISM owner to also.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: craneman on June 13, 2023, 09:18:40 am
It was your issue Scott that has me carrying a spare coolant sensor and cam position sensor.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Protech Racing on June 13, 2023, 09:18:51 am
Bypass the coolant sensor Jumper the ignition switch so that the engine lights Come on . Crank the engine and watch the volts. They have to read over 10 ish for the ecu . Clean all of the grounds. From battery , engine to chassis , ecu. Etc Ground failure is very common from storage .
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Dave Larsen on June 13, 2023, 09:19:34 am
I hope the ECM isn't your problem, but thought I'd mention Midwest ECM Repair. Midwest ECM Repair-Cummins reman. ECMs (http://www.midwestecmrepair.com/) I had them rebuild an M11 ECM 10-15 years ago from a semi tractor that I had. There is some good info on their website including some troubleshooting.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Seven7 on June 13, 2023, 09:25:12 am
Do you have a part#/source for the coolant sensor? Thanks
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 13, 2023, 09:26:09 am
When I had my bad sensor I tried to bypass it. I was unable too. I was real serious and confident I could, but could not. It would start run and shut down after thirty seconds.
I'm hoping that since the Walker coach is a older year model, the ECM and sensor system is not as sophisticated and "smart". Perhaps it will be more easily fooled?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 09:26:34 am
IMO, getting good steady 12+ VDC to the starter AND to the front of the coach is job one. When turning the key to the first position takes voltage at the ignition solenoid from 12 to 0, do not expect anything to work properly.
Trying to diagnose computer or sensor issues with incorrect voltage supplied to them can lead to a lot of false "rabbit holes".
After the basic electrical issues are resolved, absolutely the next step is to clear and recheck for diagnostic codes-- engine and transmission.
Many have mentioned the engine codes.
The transmission codes are even easier to access: Turn ignition key on (so transmission shift pad illuminates) Press the up and down arrows on the shift pad at the same time. That will either bring up d-1 OR on newer ECU's it will bring up OL. If OL, merely press the up and down arrows again at the same time.
Now, d-1 will come up and will display the first diagnostic code, Just write it down-- refer to your Allison owners manual or online. If there is no diagnostic code you will get d-1 followed by - -.
If there is a code for d-1, press the mode button to bring up d-2. Continue until you get d- "something" - -.
Turn off the key. You are done.
This is correct information. Please understand these units are programmed by much more involved scanners than what most of us own. There are many more layers of diagnostic levels. Ive been studying HP tuners and am amazed at what can be looked at and touched with the right tools. Invisible without. Crazy thing with HP tuners, they only use four wires to stand alone tune a ECM with hundreds of functions that can be modified hundreds or more ways.. Wish I had a better understanding. Hard for me to rap my mind around all this information in two wires. The other two wires are power and ground.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 09:29:01 am
Do you have a part#/source for the coolant sensor? Thanks
Would reccomend going to cummins site with serial number for proper sensor. This was a quick google search 4903489 Coolant Level Sensor For Cummins15MM11/QSK/ISX/L10/M11/ISM
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 09:40:04 am
Because my new rebuild ECM had a long prior life i really wanted a new one. They are unavailable. Cummins sells a rebuilt one and I found some China Cummins NEW ECMs and at one time considered buying one, since then the value of the dollar has caused it to go up a 1000 dollars in price. Mine does have a life time warrantee for what's that worth, but it is always in the back of my mind because of the hi mileage Programmed Control Module ECM ECU 3408501 Cummins Engine Parts QSM11... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/203538799120) They say this is programmable for my coach but who knows. $1700
I will say this there is many more availed today than there was when I desperately needed one. That's really good to see. The ECM I borrowed certainly added to my coach adventure being speed limited to 49mph. Good stuff
Contacted them and asked if they could program to my engine. They got back to me and said they could.. sound crazy but if I had a spare it might rally save my butt or possibly someone with a ISM. That being said haven't heard of anyone getting stranded by a ECM Failure in the past couple of years. $1300
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Dave Larsen on June 13, 2023, 09:50:23 am
The ECM thoughts brought back a vague memory of some youtube videos that were helpful to me when I had M11 trouble. A little searching and I found the guy.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 13, 2023, 09:52:48 am
If it does become necessary to swap out the coolant level sensor for a new one, sounds like this can be done without having to empty the reservoir tank. Found this post (Reply #4) by John Haygarth:
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 13, 2023, 09:54:22 am
While it is certainly possible that the ECM is the problem, zeroing in on that when they know they do not have good solid 12+ VDC to the ignition solenoid could lead down the "rabbit hole".
That is why I posted checking the Allison transmission for diagnostic codes (a 40 second process from the driver's seat). If it also shows voltage issues............
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Protech Racing on June 13, 2023, 09:56:07 am
In order to bypass the coolant level sensor. You will need to know the diagnostic values. The wire may be 12 volts or more likely 5 volts. The sensor probably handles the 5 volts with a resistance value through the coolant to ground
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 10:03:32 am
If it does become necessary to swap out the coolant level sensor for a new one, sounds like this can be done without having to empty the reservoir tank. Found this post (Reply #4) by John Haygarth:
In order to bypass the coolant level sensor. You will need to know the diagnostic values. The wire may be 12 volts or more likely 5 volts. The sensor probably handles the 5 volts with a resistance value through the coolant to ground
I recall its a capacitive system. Four wires to the plug.I spent hours in the books and tried every combination I could think of to cheat it. The guy helping me out ( Bubba) laughed at me at went and got one. Lesson learned, I carry a spare
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 13, 2023, 10:34:58 am
Four wires to the plug. I spent hours in the books and tried every combination I could think of to cheat it.
Well, if the sensors all have 4 wires it becomes a bit more complicated. My "bypass" suggestion may end up being of little value. I was hoping they used a sensor where the liquid, depending on the level, just makes or breaks a simple 2-wire circuit.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: turbojack on June 13, 2023, 12:50:25 pm
Since they have silverleaf, Where does silverleaf get it's voltage reading from? Could it be the ecm?
It has been 20 hrs since we have heard from the Walkers. I wonder what is going on.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 02:49:47 pm
Siobhan Understand that this is a totally different problem but I thought it may give you a little hope for a good outcome. Three years ago we were stuck with a non moveable coach, fortunately we were at a National Forest campground but were being forced to move because our site was booked to someone else. The day we planned to leave the Alison shift pad was totally blank, dark, nothing and no warning. It would start and run but no go! I had made plans for a tow and booked a flight for my wife and son to fly back home. I was going to have the coach towed to a RV park with hookups for a week while waiting on the shift pad to be repaired. I would then drive the 525 miles back home a week later. But, a week later I would still have the same problem, it wasn't the shift pad. Total cost was going to be $2000 - $3000, with the tow,campground fees, shift pad repair and flight for two back to Florida. I kept trouble shooting asking questions here on the forum. The fix? a broken ground wire behind the fiberglass panel in the storage bay next to the inverter.
Here is the link from 3 years ago. Need Help...... Allison Keypad, dark......... (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=39821.0)
Keep your spirits high and never give up.
This is really encouraging! Trent is literally going through the whole coach with a fine-toothed comb looking for the little things that could cause silly problems like we're having. It seems like there is just something that's creating little gremlins in the whole system. The engine itself looks and sounds completely normal when it's running, but it gets shut down. We will get it figured out. I hope it's something small like yours was. Sorry you had to go through all that trouble because of a ground wire. I feel like we would get it towed to a shop and they would be like, "Did you turn it off and back on again?"
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: oldguy on June 13, 2023, 03:52:14 pm
Put a voltmeter on an ignition source and in my coach I would use the source at the rear of the coach where you can start and stop the engine and see what the voltage is and then start the engine from there watching the voltage the whole time and see if there is any changes.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: kimosabe99 on June 13, 2023, 04:30:11 pm
If you would identify your exact location, I may be able to find you some help.
jk
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: turbojack on June 13, 2023, 04:48:02 pm
Put a voltmeter on an ignition source and in my coach I would use the source at the rear of the coach where you can start and stop the engine and see what the voltage is and then start the engine from there watching the voltage the whole time and see if there is any changes.
The problem is they have a digital voltage meter. I have seen many that are not real quick as showing updates to voltage change, so getting good number is very hard compared to the old analog voltage meters.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 04:57:21 pm
UPDATE: After my dad came to pick up me and my youngest 4 boys yesterday and I had my pouting session because I was mentally exhausted from the whole ordeal I got a call from Trent that he had gotten the coach to stay running for at least 10 minutes without shutting down. The alarms and lights were still going off but the voltage was good so he limped it back to my parents house an hour away and we have been here ever since continuing our clean-up job (really focusing on grounds and connections and such). It's much less stressful here. We are bummed that we are missing our trip to Chincoteague Island but we can hopefully go at a later date and we are still sleeping in our RV even though we are at my parents' house because that is where we feel at home. I'm done pouting now and I feel safe now that we aren't on the side of the road. I truly have a rockstar of a husband and I know we will get this figured out. If the moderators ever decide to have photo headers for the different forums here feel free to use this photo for Foretravel Tech Talk :D
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Protech Racing on June 13, 2023, 04:58:42 pm
My volt meter for the coach batts , fed from solar, drops a tenth or 2 in an underpass . So it's plenty fast in my case .
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 13, 2023, 05:01:49 pm
Big thumbs up as it's not the expensive ECU!! Engine codes should point the way to the problem.
P
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on June 13, 2023, 05:20:23 pm
Great news! So glad to hear you got your coach moved off the highway shoulder and to a safe parking location. :thumbsup:
We would really appreciate hearing the "end of the story" when you solve the riddle. You can either occasionally update this thread, or start a new one.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 05:28:40 pm
Great news! So glad to hear you got your coach moved off the highway shoulder and to a safe parking location. :thumbsup:
We would really appreciate hearing the "end of the story" when you solve the riddle. You can either occasionally update this thread, or start a new one.
Yes! We will keep you all updated!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 13, 2023, 06:05:16 pm
And, from the T shirt Trent is wearing, how about "HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!" But, the good news is that you aren't on the moon!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 06:53:21 pm
Good to hear!!! I'm confident you have a fault code that will tell you the problem. Just got to be able to read it. I never leave home without a low coolant sensor and a cam position sensor. If you by China cheap ones swap them in to make sure they work 👍👍 Scott Whoops forgot OBD2 reader for the coach too
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: SteveB on June 13, 2023, 07:12:04 pm
Back when I had a real job as a fleet Mx manager all of my shops had a laptop with the full Cummins Insite software loaded in them. We could do anything a certified Cummins dealer could do including diagnostics, setting parameters, imaging an ecm and updating firmware. Very nice to have but pretty expensive. We had to update our subscriptions every year for $$$. Sure wish I still had access to that tool! We also had a dedicated Cummins engineer to support our mx operations. Life was good.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 07:53:09 pm
Back when I had a real job as a fleet Mx manager all of my shops had a laptop with the full Cummins Insite software loaded in them. We could do anything a certified Cummins dealer could do including diagnostics, setting parameters, imaging an ecm and updating firmware. Very nice to have but pretty expensive. We had to update our subscriptions every year for $$$. Sure wish I still had access to that tool! We also had a dedicated Cummins engineer to support our mx operations. Life was good.
Me too
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 08:08:47 pm
IMO, getting good steady 12+ VDC to the starter AND to the front of the coach is job one. When turning the key to the first position takes voltage at the ignition solenoid from 12 to 0, do not expect anything to work properly.
Trying to diagnose computer or sensor issues with incorrect voltage supplied to them can lead to a lot of false "rabbit holes".
After the basic electrical issues are resolved, absolutely the next step is to clear and recheck for diagnostic codes-- engine and transmission.
Many have mentioned the engine codes.
The transmission codes are even easier to access: Turn ignition key on (so transmission shift pad illuminates) Press the up and down arrows on the shift pad at the same time. That will either bring up d-1 OR on newer ECU's it will bring up OL. If OL, merely press the up and down arrows again at the same time.
Now, d-1 will come up and will display the first diagnostic code, Just write it down-- refer to your Allison owners manual or online. If there is no diagnostic code you will get d-1 followed by - -.
If there is a code for d-1, press the mode button to bring up d-2. Continue until you get d- "something" - -.
Turn off the key. You are done.
Checked for error codes on the transmission, Brett. Only got one code 6600 and found this online:
Main code 66 indicates the ECU is expecting to get its throttle position sensor (TPS) signal across a serial communication interface from a computer-controlled engine. Either the engine computer is not sending the TPS information or the wiring between the engine and transmission computers has failed.
Code 66 00 can occur when the transmission ECU remains powered when the engine ECM is powered down. The transmission sees this as a communication link failure.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 08:10:02 pm
Good to hear!!! I'm confident you have a fault code that will tell you the problem. Just got to be able to read it. I never leave home without a low coolant sensor and a cam position sensor. If you by China cheap ones swap them in to make sure they work 👍👍 Scott Whoops forgot OBD2 reader for the coach too
I can't figure out what low coolant sensor to buy as the one that's in there I can't find. I don't think it's made any more. Can I just get any low coolant sensor that is made for Cummins M11 or do I need to figure out a specific part number?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 08:33:31 pm
I can't figure out what low coolant sensor to buy as the one that's in there I can't find. I don't think it's made any more. Can I just get any low coolant sensor that is made for Cummins M11 or do I need to figure out a specific part number?
cummins site with your engine serial number will give you the part number to search. Get the cam position sensor number too Cummins QuickServe Online (https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html)
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 08:42:11 pm
Brett, after I cleared that code on the transmission and restarted the coach, it started right up. No lights. No alarms. HOWEVER, without the generator and boost on, the voltage on the dash looks like this:
But voltage at the battery is 12.6 and voltage at the starter solenoid in the dash stays at 12.6 also. Coach is running just fine it seems but that voltage is too low, right?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 08:43:28 pm
cummins site with your engine serial number will give you the part number to search. Get the cam position sensor number too Cummins QuickServe Online (https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html)
Thank you!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 13, 2023, 08:54:09 pm
Brett, after I cleared that code on the transmission and restarted the coach, it started right up. No lights. No alarms. HOWEVER, without the generator and boost on, the voltage on the dash looks like this:
But voltage at the battery is 12.6 and voltage at the starter solenoid in the dash stays at 12.6 also. Coach is running just fine it seems but that voltage is too low, right?
Check gauge grounds. You can also use your digital voltmeter to check voltage at the back of the voltmeter in the dash to see if this is a wiring or gauge issue.
You are home-- take a break! Come back with a fresh mind (and body).
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 09:01:10 pm
Yes 12.6 volts running is to low. 14 volts at the dash and 13.8 at the batteries running. Your home. Go back thru the posts. Clean all your connections. Take a day off
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 13, 2023, 09:06:04 pm
cummins site with your engine serial number will give you the part number to search. Get the cam position sensor number too Cummins QuickServe Online (https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/index.html)
hmmm...I can't seem to find either of these parts on the parts list when I put in my ESN...
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 13, 2023, 09:22:03 pm
hmmm...I can't seem to find either of these parts on the parts list when I put in my ESN...
Yep they are a pain to sort out ,but they are there. May be in the wiring diagram? Ive been trying to build a help list for just your situation Coach wont start trouble shooting (Battery) (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=45820.0) I do want to go back and add some more information and Ideas. It's just crazy stress being stuck. All to often we see what we want and miss what we need to see Low voltage Engine quit Tons of accurate faults do to low voltage and they are all just a nuisance distraction. Clear the faults and work the symptoms till they are gone. You dont have to catch every ball every time . Will be time fore the other balls later. You still have issues. Keep breaking into smaller sections. Fix, go to the next. You have supply or ground issues. You have two power generation sources. Every thing should power everything.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 13, 2023, 09:42:29 pm
With the engine running and a good alternator you should have 13.5 to 14 volts at the chassis batteries, depending on the state of charge of the batteries. At least ours does.......
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: craneman on June 13, 2023, 09:44:03 pm
I can't figure out what low coolant sensor to buy as the one that's in there I can't find. I don't think it's made any more. Can I just get any low coolant sensor that is made for Cummins M11 or do I need to figure out a specific part number?
Probable correct parts, on a 2003 U320: Speed sensor for Allison transmission for on board spares part Allison 29544139 Relays: Song Chuan 871-1C-C-R1U01 12VDC (Pack of 3) Micro 280 SPDT 20/35A Relay,... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07959M68S?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details) Cam position sensor: Amazon.com: JEENDA Position Sensor 4984223 4326596 2872362 3408503 050660... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08H1V4DHJ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details) Coolant sensor: Amazon.com: 4903489 3612521 1673785C91 1673785C92 Coolant Fluid Level Sensor... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B089LMYDTT?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)
May or may not work for you.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pamela & Mike on June 14, 2023, 06:56:58 am
On this age coach with the M-11 they most likely used a Robert Shaw/ Mini Tek sensor #086714A0001 for the low coolant sensor.
Mike
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 14, 2023, 06:00:01 pm
Are these engine start sequences from one 1997 model any help? After turning ignition key, everything must work for engine starter to crank. Lots of places to fail and to manually crank engine.
No computer on this engine's diagram.
Last diagram has bypass of transmission neutral start relay, that has prevented engine crank when 12v line to transmission had too low voltage.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: WagonWheels on June 15, 2023, 07:29:22 pm
Ensure the alternator is working properly. Loose belt? Defective? In 2016 we purchased our rig from MOT. Drove it to Longview (camped); returned to MOT to repair a slide issue; drove it to DFW area (camped) and then to a covered storage lot. On the way to the lot the check engine light came on. Returned to our home in SoCal and about a month later returned to DWF to retrieve the coach from storage. We were driving it back to FOT for a PDI. We had only gone about 3 or 4 miles when the check engine light came on again. Dang!! Listened to the ding ding ding for 200 miles. Next day FOT diagnosed a failing alternator. That fixed the ding ding ding. Thankfully the engine/chassis batteries lasted long enough to get us to FOT. A few years later we were driving the coach from our campsite in El Paso to Cummins, about 20 miles to have a check engine code that BlueFire had informed us about. Cummins couldn't locate the code but told us that there were multiple codes for low voltage on our 20 mile drive. Turns out that one of the engine batteries had failed. Two coach bucks later and all day stay in the Cummins driver's lounge, we were good to go back to our campsite. BTW the check engine light didn't not go off on our way to Cummins. Hope you have your problem diagnosed and fixed by the time you read this.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: nbluesky on June 18, 2023, 10:15:31 am
Are these engine start sequences from one 1997 model any help? After turning ignition key, everything must work for engine starter to crank. Lots of places to fail and to manually crank engine.
No computer on this engine's diagram.
Last diagram has bypass of transmission neutral start relay, that has prevented engine crank when 12v line to transmission had too low voltage.
The attachments are just text lists, are there supposed to be diagrams that go with them?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 18, 2023, 01:51:34 pm
Hi Noah,
No photos to support the Start Sequence listing. What item do you need help with identifying?
12-volt source is on rear bay wall under a white cover. Ignition relay/solenoid, neutral start relay, Allison circuit breaker are on large 12-volt front panel in front of co-pilot seat. Aux start solenoid is on isolator panel.
This listing is correct for one Foretravel coach and probably mostly applies to other coaches. I think of it a reason to learn about physical item locations.
One of the nice things is most failures of an item can be bypassed to get engine start if one knows the sequence. And it is even better if we know locations before a problem occurs.
I was aware of our Allison computer input low voltage and when leaving a wash rack, coach did not crank with ignition key, so I quickly bypassed the neutral-start relay and was pleasantly surprised we could start okay. Relay is still bypassed to this day.
We only fuel up at truck stops and only at pump islands that do NOT have a gasoline dispenser pump. And NEVER turn engine off while filling, as I would not want to be stuck at a truck stop pump.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 19, 2023, 01:15:55 pm
Hey all, just wanted to post an update:
I took the alternator to a local guy who has been working on alternators and starters for over 40 years. He knew Powerline well and gave me a good education on these. It's nice that they can be cleaned and repaired. The folks that know how to do this are not around as much as they used to be. He put new brushes and bearings in as well as replaced the bridge (was the Leece Neville but they don't make those anymore). The alternator works great now.
However, this was not the problem. I put the alternator back in and started up the engine only to still get the same low voltage alerts and engine shut down. I checked the voltage off the alternator while the engine was running and, just like before, 12.8 :headwall: .
I was scratching my head and then noticed that the voltage sensor terminal cable (which looked fine to me because there was no corrosion and rust) had black tape on it so I pulled it off and lo and behold the wiring wasn't even attached to the connector! :facepalm: I then reconnected a new ring to the wire, put it back on, started up the engine, and voila!!! 14v! :dance:
Through all of this, I've got a new isolator, new boost solenoid, cleaned up literally every cable on my coach, a just-like-new alternator, new positive chassis battery terminal cables and figured out my trimetric (I also had a cable in the wrong place with this).
Total cost is about $450 and all I really needed to do to get back on the road last week was just fix that one tiny sensor connection. Brett was right - before jumping down the rabbit hole of expensive - it's probably a bad connection somewhere. :))
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 19, 2023, 01:35:23 pm
Yep! Mine was a simple fix too, a broken connection not unlike your problem. Had you found that first 😆, you would have been back on the road in an hour ^.^d
It's the simple ones that get you sometimes! Thanks for the update.
Safe travels Justin.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Tommy D on June 19, 2023, 01:44:56 pm
No worries, all that other stuff probably needed to be done anyway! Glad your back on the road! Sorry you had such a stressful time for a small easy fix.
Now a question for the group. How would/could this problem have been found/diagnosed easier?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Elliott on June 19, 2023, 01:55:33 pm
Not even half a coach buck to get going again? Sounds like a deal to me. Glad you got it figured out ^.^d
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: oldguy on June 19, 2023, 02:36:53 pm
I do my best Tommy like the rest of the Forum but first we need to figure out what the persons problem is and I don't know about the rest of the members, when I'm there I see things that jump at me that I can't imagine sitting in front of the labtop.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: nbluesky on June 19, 2023, 02:43:07 pm
Wow, great job finding the problem, glad it was easy. Too bad it cost you your trip. That was probably worth way more that the money spent. You learned a lot though!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: turbojack on June 19, 2023, 04:26:54 pm
Now a question for the group. How would/could this problem have been found/diagnosed easier?
If a volt meter was put on the terminal at the alternator and ground on housing on alternator with the engine off it would have read the battery voltage, with it being broken it would have read zero.
We need to add this test when someone is having a problem.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 19, 2023, 05:53:46 pm
No worries, all that other stuff probably needed to be done anyway! Glad your back on the road! Sorry you had such a stressful time for a small easy fix.
Now a question for the group. How would/could this problem have been found/diagnosed easier?
Yes, I am not mad at my needed education on all of this at all. More stressful on Siobhán than me. I feel like the engine and I are one now haha!
I would just say that maybe if we would have seen the low voltage diagnostic earlier on then go right to the alternator and check what the output is off the terminals there. But again, I did do that but I only began to clean up and pull out things that looked rusty and corroded and this wasn't one of them. Shrug. All I know is we have always been very appreciative of this community to help us out. You all know so much! Thank you!
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 20, 2023, 08:22:35 am
No worries, all that other stuff probably needed to be done anyway! Glad your back on the road! Sorry you had such a stressful time for a small easy fix.
Now a question for the group. How would/could this problem have been found/diagnosed easier?
Knowing what the dashboard voltmeter numbers are and what they mean, and looking once in a while to keep track of "How things are going."
Adopting a logical approach to the problem. You may not go directly to the failure, but in the long run it's faster chasing probabilities than using a scatter gun.
The U225 doesn't dare act up. My 1962 Studebaker project? Well I just keep asking for trouble. Sometimes a five year old battery just fails.
Why would the gen set running with boost, not allow the engine to run?
I installed a second 60A power converter with just this scenario in mind. That it makes my chassis battery maintenance just that much easier makes it a twofer.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: MarkC on June 20, 2023, 08:23:19 pm
Trent, I know the trip disruption was a bummer, but just look at the positives. You gained a ton of knowledge about your coach and made several upgrades for $450. If you had called a mobile RV mechanic, chances are they may or may not have found your issue and would still have charged you a hefty fee for their work, probably more than the $450. Every time I work on the coach, I learn something. I sometimes have to spend some money on tools, but I figure I'll have the tools and knowledge learned forever, and the money didn't go to someone else.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Michelle on June 20, 2023, 08:25:56 pm
If you had called a mobile RV mechanic, chances are they may or may not have found your issue and would still have charged you a hefty fee for their work, probably more than the $450.
Trent could have called a mobil mechanic and paid him to "read the codes" and zero them out. Unfortunately too many technicians can only change the parts listed, but the low voltage condition should have led to a battery voltage check and one way or another, with good battery voltage established, check the output voltage of the alternator. With those two things good, the battery isolator is next in line. If there was an ECU or sensor problem, the basics have to be there before you can move forward with the more expensive problems. If you have a limited amount of time, or are stuck on the side of the road, the mobil mechanic will be less expensive than the tow truck. And you can spend money, but you can't buy back the time already passed.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Dub on June 20, 2023, 09:13:21 pm
$450.00 wouldn't touch a mobile "mechanic" and then he would have given up on the job, left and still would have charged his full rate. I've rode that horse before with the problem being electrical with a class 8 diesel truck.They don't guarantee they will fix anything, they merely agree to work on it. I promise you this played out in your favor. I will gladly give someone $450.00 to come to my shop and clean up and replace the same things on my coach and I will buy the parts.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 21, 2023, 06:46:21 am
So what component should be looked at in this case - the isolator?
Boost switch and boost solenoid. Generator powers the converter or inverter/charger which charges the house battery bank. With boost circuit working, that charging is "shared with" the chassis battery. In essence, with the boost solenoid ON, it makes one large battery bank from the two separate ones.
And, if the boost switch/boost solenoid are not working, a very easy work around. Locate the boost solenoid (under bed or behind rear wheel). Remove the large-gauge cable from one of the large lugs and ADD IT TO the other large lug. Electrically the same as the solenoid working.
That makes for one large battery bank for both charging and for discharging, so if drycamping you will want to return the cable to its original position so you don't discharge both banks.
BTW, this same procedure is a perfect work around for a failed ignition solenoid as well. You are just manually doing what the solenoid does electrically.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 22, 2023, 09:10:45 pm
Okay friends - false alarm - we are still scratching our heads.
So, in my last message I was so excited to say we got it all running. And it was. But... I shoulda left it running longer before I sent that message. I had a new isolator showing up next day so we were still planning on waiting here anyways. I decided to take the rig for a test drive the next day and then it happened again. Check engine light. Shutdown engine. And low voltage power supply showed up on my diagnostics. I was even looking at the voltage meter on the dash when it happened. 14v. Trimetric was reading 13.8.
Now, I'm thoroughly confused. :help:
I decided to take a break from it and hearing ya'll in my head set to clean up even more of the isolator area since that arrived shortly after. I figured that maybe I'll clean all of that up before I come back to you all and post again.
So now, I've got an all new shiny isolator on a steel plate that I shined up and dremeled off any rust, new connections on the ends of all the cables. I double-tripled checked the wiring schematics for the coach to make sure that I had them all in the right places.
I read all through someone else's post on here about the neg battery to the side of the engine ground wire and I cleaned that all up too. Now, I'm starting to read about the ECM posts. Tomorrow, I'm gonna check around the starter and clean up all those cables.
Still learning a lot, but would also love to get this rig on the road. I'd love your thoughts and questions as I feel like I'm trying to find a needle in a haystack.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 22, 2023, 09:20:16 pm
I decided to take the rig for a test drive the next day and then it happened again. Check engine light. Shutdown engine. And low voltage power supply showed up on my diagnostics. I was even looking at the voltage meter on the dash when it happened. 14v. Trimetric was reading 13.8.
Now, I'm thoroughly confused. :help:
A bad ground will also show up as a low voltage condition. With current flowing through a circuit, voltmeter probes placed on either side of a good connection should read zero volts.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Tommy D on June 22, 2023, 09:21:50 pm
There is still a bunch I want to add to this post but although not complete with diagrams it should be helpful. I know you have been threw this a bunch, wish you were around the corner to help. Do one section at a time starting at the batteries to the termination of the cables. Once you have proven that section is good go to the next section. Dont be jumping back and forth. You may find it but you need to search and eliminate to resolve. Scott
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 22, 2023, 10:57:06 pm
You need a wiring diagram or schematic that shows where the 12v originates that is the power source to the ECM. Unless you can trace the wire to its source or supply. You also need to know where the ground or negative connection is for the ECM. Unless the ECM is failing.... it seems to me that it is detecting the low voltage and everything else may be at 12v.
When I had the issue with the Allison touch pad with no power, it was the only thing that was out. It was a single ground wire (white) that was grounded behind the white fiberglass panel in the bay. The lug had broken from the terminal. Yours could be as simple, but you need to now where EXACTLY that the ECM gets it's power and ground.
If you could monitor the voltage to the ECM at the ECM when this happens, you would have a much better idea of the validity of the fault. Is it actually a low voltage condition or does the ECM just "think" it's a low voltage condition because of an internal problem.
Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 23, 2023, 07:56:41 am
Okay friends - false alarm - we are still scratching our heads. I'm thoroughly confused. :help:
Still learning a lot, but would also love to get this rig on the road. I'd love your thoughts and questions as I feel like I'm trying to find a needle in a haystack.
The haystack isn't organized in an organized, logical to someone, fashion. Plus you can always use a magnet to find a needle.
Do you have the 3-ring binders that came with your coach from the factory?
Which magic box returned an error code for low voltage" the engine? or the transmission?
Do Not! Pierce the wire insulation in order to take measurements. Early convenience leads to later problems.
And finally, you can trace the wire bundle back to the source, and by source I mean both voltage and return.
I lied. I agree with Four Travelers that one way or another it's the offending electronics control module that is the hub of the problem. Start with the simple things first: the innies and the outies.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Protech Racing on June 23, 2023, 10:37:43 am
Maybe consider running stand alone power and ground wires to the ecu ?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Old Toolmaker on June 23, 2023, 09:09:55 pm
Maybe consider running stand alone power and ground wires to the ecu ?
Nothing wrong with that, at last count I still have 5 stand alone battery power feeds due to the previous owners mis-routing of a wire bundle, subsequent pinching, and an electrical fire.
Trent, with a little luck should be able to manually trace the factory wiring by hand and clean and plugs along the way. Unless of course this is a fault in the engine ECU. But do the simple stuff first.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 26, 2023, 09:22:03 am
Fuse holders should look something like the example below:
So, I discovered in the cummins manual that I had only found 1 of the fuse holders near the ECM when we were on the side of the road. Yesterday I found the other one and the fuse was broken (see pic). I put a new one in.
I seem to remember someone earlier calling this fuse location a PITA. I agree. Engine is starting good. Running at 14.2v. I've had the engine running for about thirty minutes now with no problems today. However, yesterday, after I put the new fuse in, I ran it for a bit and would get these occasional "hiccups" where the engine shutdown light would come on - then throw on the alarm - then the stop engine light would come on - then the engine shutdown light would turn back off and everything would be running just fine with the exception of the now stop engine light on and the lovely alarm.
We had this happen when the key ignition was just at the first turn and the engine wasn't running too. Like, all these clicks would throw the same sequence even when the engine wasn't on. That made me think that something is going on with the ecm. There are now no codes on the transmission box.
I figured it's safe to drive to a shop where I can have a real diagnostic tool run the codes for me and for some reason even thought maybe the codes that were saying low voltage now just need to be cleared. I also noticed that my silverleaf stopped communicating this morning.
Silverleaf wouldn't be causing any of this would it?
Also, about four years ago I felt like I was having problems starting the coach and when I got new keys made that seemed to alleviate those problems. So I thought to ask - the key ignition wouldn't potentially be a cause would it?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: FourTravelers on June 26, 2023, 09:29:31 am
Looking closely at the condition of the stabs on that fuse, they seem to be somewhat corroded, make sure the fuse holder contacts that it plugs into are clean and tight. It's a small amp fuse I'm sure but you don't want any resistance in that circuit, voltage drop across that fuse could cause issues for sure.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 26, 2023, 09:53:03 am
Okay, I can see about cleaning the inside of that fuse holder too. I also found that I had mistakenly selected the wrong comm channel on silverleaf so that's working again.
After I posted the last message - The hiccup happened again at about 38 min. Voltage drop like a quick flutter and then back on again. I turned the coach off. Then restarted it. I'm at 20 minutes again with no stop engine and no alarm. So weird... So confused...
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: turbojack on June 26, 2023, 11:38:15 am
Okay, I can see about cleaning the inside of that fuse holder too.
Based on the picture as to how bad the blades looked I would say even with a new fuse you could still be having a bad connection. You might try removing and re installing the fuse a number of times to see if that will clear up the contacts in holder. You do not want to make the contacts in the fuse holder loose. Or are they already loose? Does the other fuse blades look just as bad? If so that could also be part of your problem. Might need to replace both fuse holders.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 27, 2023, 03:02:02 pm
I got some new fuse holders from Napa and replaced those. You were right, I didn't realize how loose the old holders were. However, the engine glitch or flutter that happens is still happening. Engine seems to be running just fine. I've got a guy coming by tonight who has a diagnostic that can read our rig. I was also surprised to find out that that most of these mechanic shops around don't have anything that will read an OBD1.
OBD1 vs OBD2: What Nobody Told You Before - OBD Advisor (http://www.obdadvisor.com/difference-obd1-obd2-scanners/)
Something else new that I've learned. With a '95 even the Cummins service center near me doesn't have an OBD1.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: SteveB on June 27, 2023, 07:39:01 pm
The rules for OBD cars a light trucks are different for those relating to HD vehicles with a GVVR of more than 14000 pounds. Automotive scanners do not work on HD vehicles. Federal regulations for HD OBD went into effect in 2010. Prior to that I believe the diagnostic software code was proprietary to the engine manufacturers. Any Cummins dealer should have tools to interrogate the ecm's on any of their electronic engines like Celect, Celect+, ISM, ISX, Etc. OBD one and two relate to vehicles under 14000 pounds GVWR. At least this how I understand it.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 27, 2023, 09:50:55 pm
So, I discovered in the cummins manual that I had only found 1 of the fuse holders near the ECM when we were on the side of the road. Yesterday I found the other one and the fuse was broken (see pic). I put a new one in.
I seem to remember someone earlier calling this fuse location a PITA. I agree. Engine is starting good. Running at 14.2v. I've had the engine running for about thirty minutes now with no problems today. However, yesterday, after I put the new fuse in, I ran it for a bit and would get these occasional "hiccups" where the engine shutdown light would come on - then throw on the alarm - then the stop engine light would come on - then the engine shutdown light would turn back off and everything would be running just fine with the exception of the now stop engine light on and the lovely alarm.
We had this happen when the key ignition was just at the first turn and the engine wasn't running too. Like, all these clicks would throw the same sequence even when the engine wasn't on. That made me think that something is going on with the ecm. There are now no codes on the transmission box.
I figured it's safe to drive to a shop where I can have a real diagnostic tool run the codes for me and for some reason even thought maybe the codes that were saying low voltage now just need to be cleared. I also noticed that my silverleaf stopped communicating this morning.
Silverleaf wouldn't be causing any of this would it?
Also, about four years ago I felt like I was having problems starting the coach and when I got new keys made that seemed to alleviate those problems. So I thought to ask - the key ignition wouldn't potentially be a cause would it?
You have induced a ton of low voltage codes. Silverleaf may of become victim to this also, unknown? That is a stupid key, no electronics in it. You can order new GM key tumbler and separately ignition switch. Amazon is ready to ship. That fuse does look like its had a troubled life. On the end of it is two exposed tabs and voltage can be read on both sides easily. Glad you're getting ahead. I would think a good scan tool will read and reset codes and give you a clean slate.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Protech Racing on June 27, 2023, 09:55:47 pm
Hot wire the ignition switch .
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 29, 2023, 08:25:05 am
okay, here's where I am at now. I had a guy come in and read the diagnostics from the obd1. It's nice to have that diagnostics be so detailed and exact. Came up that those fuses were causing the problems. However, I'm still getting the shutdown flutter thing even after he cleared the codes.
Next step that I've been encouraged to do is to get the fuel tested for algae and change out the fuel filters (which I planned to do anyhow but I just wasn't able to get the coach to a place to do that up until now). He thinks that maybe the fuel is throwing the alert to the ecm that there is low voltage because something could be clogged. But even then, he was seeing that the fuel pressure on the diagnostic was good. Then he said, that it's a good chance that the ECM might be simply failing.
At this point, if I need to replace the ECM - is there a less expensive option than the OEM from Cummins?
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Rudy on June 29, 2023, 08:35:52 am
Keith Risch in Nacogdoches can polish your fuel. He correctly pumps the tank empty and triple filters the fuel putting back in. It will be clean. All the best as you sort it out
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: dsd on June 29, 2023, 08:56:05 am
okay, here's where I am at now. I had a guy come in and read the diagnostics from the obd1. It's nice to have that diagnostics be so detailed and exact. Came up that those fuses were causing the problems. However, I'm still getting the shutdown flutter thing even after he cleared the codes.
Next step that I've been encouraged to do is to get the fuel tested for algae and change out the fuel filters (which I planned to do anyhow but I just wasn't able to get the coach to a place to do that up until now). He thinks that maybe the fuel is throwing the alert to the ecm that there is low voltage because something could be clogged. But even then, he was seeing that the fuel pressure on the diagnostic was good. Then he said, that it's a good chance that the ECM might be simply failing.
At this point, if I need to replace the ECM - is there a less expensive option than the OEM from Cummins?
So I have replaced my ECM do to a platform failure when I bought my coach. All these advertised rebuilders are not. They reflash the ones they can. They cant repair. Mine has like 980K on it and has worked flawlessly and has a lifetime warrenty if they are still in business and I personally doubt they are. I have found that cummins China does build new ECMs. I know nothing about them , but have contacted them and have been assured they can sell me a new updated ECM that will be programmed for my coach. WHO KNOWS the truth. Definitely do the homework on the revised part numbers and a call to cummins to validate. Good luck Programmed Fits Cummins ECM Engine Computer Module 3408501 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/313603893458)
Definitely have your rear axle gear ratio, tire size, transmission model. I put a speed limiter in my for 80mph. May be more info too.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Rudy on June 29, 2023, 09:00:51 am
ECU King in Santa Fe TX can rebuild the ECU. My 1995 M11 needed both boards rebuilt. Worked great. 409/927-1900
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: wolfe10 on June 29, 2023, 09:25:46 am
Next step on the fuel system is to replace the fuel filters.
Then, take a saw and open up the primary fuel filter. That will tell you if you have a problem.
Yes, fuel polishing is the solution if you have a significant contamination problem.
If not that bad, just keep on hand several sets of fuel filters and replace as needed. That is the "automatic" way to polish fuel.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Protech Racing on June 29, 2023, 05:44:34 pm
Fuel will not shut off and come back on. It will simply slow down and stop. Voltage supply to ECU, needs to be verified steady. Probe the supply and ground, At the ECU and watch as you run the engine .
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 29, 2023, 08:37:26 pm
Thanks everyone. Learning so much here. I dropped my coach off with the cummins dealer and just simply told them I want a Preventative Maintenance. The service manager was super kind and told me that I probably didn't want his guys poking around trying to figure out what's wrong and I agreed. He said most of them were in diapers when this engine was coming off the line. He also gave me the number to a retired gentleman that worked there on cummins for twenty years before he left to start his own business specifically on electrical diagnosis on Detroits and Cummins. He's pretty awesome. Old. Knows his stuff. I spend about a half hour on the phone with him. Felt like I was talking to you all. So the plan is, once I get the coach back from just the PM I'll give him a call. I'm anticipating that the problem with still be there (I have learned not get my hopes up unless I absolutely know that the problem is fixed). Anyways, his name is Tim Williams servicing central and northern Virginia with Diagnosis Tech. I feel pretty good about this so far. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on June 29, 2023, 08:39:19 pm
I just felt to add that when I said he's Old - it's a term of endearment for me. And I meant that for all of you as well. Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: John44 on June 29, 2023, 09:18:50 pm
Think you should have gotten on the same page with him on what a preventave maintenance is,oil change?,valve adjustment? compression test?their version and yours may not be the same,hate to see you spend money for no reason,probably dozens of versions out there.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on July 05, 2023, 12:13:39 pm
Okay, here's where we are now. I'd love some advice:
It's time for us to purchase an ECM. We have considered some different options. Looked at Module Experts in Jacksonville, FL where we could get one for $2200 and then send the old one to them and get $600 back. But the reviews are horrible on this place.
We'd consider getting an ECM from China, as was posted on another thread, but we are probably leaning towards not trying to cut corners and just getting the OEM even though it's more expensive we feel a peace that this option would involve less of a possibility on being scammed.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Pamela & Mike on July 05, 2023, 12:32:42 pm
Have you checked with ECM King that is referenced in reply 209.
Mike
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on July 06, 2023, 12:00:11 pm
Just spoke with ECM Kings - said if they could not get it to act up he would send another ecm. If still had problem you could return the replacement with a restocking fee. The ecm would be 1200.00 plus 400.00 core charge. 1 year warranty.
I'd say that's pretty good. We have the ECM off now and are about to ship it out to them. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Protech Racing on July 06, 2023, 05:34:39 pm
Did you ever verify the power and ground at the ecu. ? Could be as simple as a Ignition switch or run relay . The bouncing voltage indicates a power source issue.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on July 08, 2023, 08:34:35 am
Did you ever verify the power and ground at the ecu. ? Could be as simple as a Ignition switch or run relay . The bouncing voltage indicates a power source issue.
Yes. The guy helping us checked that. We are now having trouble getting ECU King to return our phone calls so that we can send the part in. It's been two full days of calling without a call returned. If we don't hear back from them by Monday we will have to go with a different option.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Dave Larsen on July 09, 2023, 04:19:39 pm
I mentioned this place a few pages ago. Midwest ECM Repair-Cummins reman. ECMs (http://www.midwestecmrepair.com/)
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: bigdog on July 09, 2023, 07:40:20 pm
Yes. The guy helping us checked that. We are now having trouble getting ECU King to return our phone calls so that we can send the part in. It's been two full days of calling without a call returned. If we don't hear back from them by Monday we will have to go with a different option.
Business must be good to just simply ignore customers. Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Stranded on an exit ramp - Stop Engine and ABS lights
Post by: Walkerfam7 on July 12, 2023, 05:13:04 pm
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a working RV again. We did end up getting ahold of ECM Kings and they were great. We sent our old ECM in and had them ship us one as well. $1200 for the ECM and $450 core charge so if everything comes back good or fixable on that ECM we sent them we're not out as much $. Probably the best deal for what we have seen.
Also, the technician that did the work was really great too. $100/hr verses the $240/hr cummins would have charged.
DiagniosTECH, LLC. - Tim Williams - (540) 324-5510 (https://zaubee.com/biz/diagnostech-llc-qjen80wp)
Thank you all for such wonderful help. As always - we are so grateful for this community.