Foretravel Owners' Forum

Mike, not being completely sure of your situation, those pumps should be a couple of hundred bucks and I bet you could find a mobile mechanic in the area to come to you and put it on.
That might save you some traveling back and forth.

The last pump I bought for an 8.3 was about $250 ish. not including a new pully. It is real rare to have one of those pumps lock up. I sure want the autopsy report after you pull it down.

If you could hang a couple of floor fans some how in front of the radiator you could run them off the generator to limp home. Now it would sure look like something Jethro would come up with and most likely cause for a discussion with a state trooper.  There has to be a better way to limp home as this won't help with the steering at all.
 
Mike

The last pump I bought for an 8.3 was about $250 ish. not including a new pully. It is real rare to have one of those pumps lock up. I sure want the autopsy report after you pull it down.

If you could hang a couple of floor fans some how in front of the radiator you could run them off the generator to limp home. Now it would sure look like something Jethro would come up with and most likely cause for a discussion with a state trooper.  There has to be a better way to limp home as this won't help with the steering at all.
 
Mike

Add another grain of sand to the anxiety scale. That sucks. Sorry to hear this. Spray jets of potable water on radiator?

A forum member used these folks and I talked to them a year or so ago Mr. Wayne Beckett
J & S Hydraulics, Inc
785 Airport Road
Sutton, WV 26601

Office: 304-765-7008
Cell: 304-619-4776
FAX:304-765-0109
Do a forum search for hydraulic fan motors. Jon Twork posted it

Luckily FOT (FT  of Tennessee) is just on the other side of the town I am broke down in.

I bet the hydraulic fan pump is built by someone to FT specs.  The oem was a John S. Barnes(Rockford, IL) and the new pump is a Sauer Danfoss(USA).  FT is the only source and mine was $900 7 years ago.

FT of Tennessee hasn't existed for a number of years (almost 2 decades)...  That is if you mean the old Kodak location.  It was bought out and renamed Tennessee RV in 2004. 

It was bought out by Lazy Days in 2019.  They also bought out Buddy Gregg on the west side of Knoxville not too long ago (July 2023).

I don't think that searching for a "Cummins 8.3 hydraulic pump" will yield anything helpful.  The pump isn't anything specific to Cummins. 
I doubt this is helpful, but here's what's on our '97.
Good luck.

TAXMANPAUL, Michelle says FOT has not existed in near 20 years. Did you mean MOT in Texas. If not texas, Do you have any records as to who you dealt with?...thank you if you do.

FOT = Foretravel of Texas

FORETRAVEL (https://www.foretravel.com)

MOT = Motorhomes of Texas

Motorhome Dealer In Nacogdoches, TX | Motorhomes of Texas (https://www.motorhomesoftexas.com/)

Two different businesses, but both VERY familiar with Foretravel coaches.  Both locations are a stone's throw from each other, on opposite sides of the road.

If I understand you correctly MOT has a parts dept, AND FOT has another?

So the late 90's models with the 8.3L have a single belt driven pump that powers both the cooling fans and the power steering?  I wonder why they went to that system.  Our '93 model has two completely separated hydraulic systems - each with a pump and a reservoir.  Cooling fans pump is belt driven.  Power steering pump is shaft driven - bolted to the end of the air compressor.  Lose one pump and the other system still functions.  Seems a bit more resilient to me.

Thanks Chuck,

Yes I recall them taking me over across to the road to the parts department when we picked it up. we bought from MOT near 3 years ago. But I thought all of that was MOT. If I understand you correctly MOT has a parts dept, AND FOT has another?

I have the pump off in hand. There is NO data plate on it. Its markings are K110 9845 40998, SAUER SUNDSTRAND.
Ours IS NOT rebuildable the shaft is snapped in two.

More Google searching turned up the IRV2 Forum thread linked below - Reply #12 contains some good info!

C8.3 hydraulic pump - iRV2 Forums (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/c8-3-hydraulic-pump-274678.html)

CRANE, thanks reaching out to both them AND the Albaq source for a possible part number that could be used at HD truck parts sources. .

TOM, yes no doubt FT can provide info but they are not open till monday, though a slim chance, was hoping someone might know and maybe a place like NAPA or some local fleet place might have one. Luckily FOT (FT  of Tennessee) is just on the other side of the town I am broke down in.

At the moment, taking my wife home today in our toad its about 290 , then coming back here tomorrow to be ready to pounce on FOT first thing monday morn. Unless local road service contact can point me at a better path. Wife still works and must be back at work monday. Me im retired and can deal with this. Still not pleasant situation

Mike, if you have the specs for the one that was on your coach and has been discontinued, why can you not take that and find a new one that matches.?

I did a google search on causes of pump shaft to break.  The main answer is "The most common cause of shaft breakage is (rotational) tensile bending fatigue. "

While I was typing this I remember a friend that troubleshoots why multi million dollar engine fails had told me that he has see crankshafts and all kinds of items running off the engine break due to running the wrong belt tensioner on an engine. I  am going to send him the picture you have of the broken shaft and see what he has to say.

Mike, there is a Cummins place just off I-65 in Nashville.  If you are in Goodlettsville, you are close to it.  There are many places around for hydraulic pumps, etc.  I am located here in Watertown, TN, not that far from you, maybe 35 miles east of Nashville and Lebanon, TN. If I can help, let me know or you can bring coach out here and park in front of mine.  Let me know.  You can access my phone number on my profile or just message me.  Good luck!

Mike, just a shot in the dark but what about calling some RV wrecking yards to see if they might have the same pump as yours? Siteone rv parts is one such place.

They don't show the number "QCC 41188", but Visone does have several Sauer Danfoss hydraulic pumps if you know that part number (I put Danfoss in the search box):

https://rvchassisparts.visonerv.com/cgi-bin/f/search.pl?

(I hate to bring up a sad subject, but if anyone knows where Rudy's 2001 went, it's possible that hydraulic pump survived the fire)

I just did some digging (in the parts manuals in the forum library.)  The U295 used a different hydraulic pump than the U320.

U295 41188   CPJ 030 W/TAPERED SHAFT

U320 41078   CPJ 030 L 2 ## CB 040 150 (SPCL RV)

Brett, Michelle, etc.....you seem to know way more people than I do when it comes not only to FT but diesel pusher coaches in general. I am hoping you two will take the time to share all of these finding with high level folks at Foretravel, FOT & MOT.

I am hoping you 2 or more have contacts that this can be shared with.

Mike thanks for all your work on this. I too talked to Simone, very knowledgeable genuine wants to help the customer person. The key here is Foretravel repair facility's , as well as owners willingness to purchase a couple of these pumps for stock. I for one would have a spare on hand. There has to be some willingness for folks to put some skin in the game before QCC builds them just to have them on their shelf.

Mike,

Unfortunately, I have had no contacts at FT/FOT for a number of years, especially at the high level. 

I will alert MOT's service director, Derek DiVerdi, to this topic.  I haven't spoken with him in a long time, but he might remember me.

Where on the pump is this part number stamped can you find it with out removing the pump You didn't mention any U270  just the u295 or the u 320 is this because of the bigger engine. Is there anyway an other pump be modified to be put on. I don't understand why an other pump can't be fabricated to fit this application of two radiator motors and a power steering box I know nothing about a hydraulic system but there's a hydraulic company in my town that are busy, making up hydraulic systems for fishing boats , boat haulers with all kinds of different options like hauliers, winches, hydraulic pistons, trap hauliers just curious what would be the procedure  to fabricate a new pump for our system. I know this wouldn't help someone stranded on the road but just wondering if a new system could be made up if you were home. I had an uncle working in the hydraulic shop and he told me they use to remove the part numbers of any system so that the customer would have to go back to them. I would not like to have too junk my coach just over a pump there must be away to install an other pump. This has me very worried about the future of my coach. It scares me I just travelled from one end of the  US and back home here in Canada over 9000 miles and would not have liked to be stranded on the road. I had just went thought Nashville the day before this happened to you and I was worried the rest of the way home. It was always on the back of my mind.
I would be willing to purchase a spare pump if I could get my hands on one

I also just posted a link to here on the IRV2 forums.

I think you're going to get a private message from IRv2 and a deleted post. They don't take to kindly to someone posting links away from their site to another forum.

 As I bought ours from MOT I think I will reach out to the guy I used, to make him aware and ask him to share with anyone he knows, or see can he provide. Worst case I will call FT myself and see can I get any names.

Where on the pump is this part number stamped can you find it with out removing the pump You didn't mention any U270  just the u295 or the u 320 is this because of the bigger engine.

We (the forum) don't (doesn't) have a U270 Parts Manual in the Files section, so we'd need someone with a copy (or who's got that model coach and had the pump replaced) to advise as to the part number.

If someone has such a Parts Manual in PDF form, please try to upload it.  If it's too large, PM me and we'll figure out how to get it into the forum Files.

I think you're going to get a private message from IRv2 and a deleted post. They don't take to kindly to someone posting links away from their site to another forum.

Yes, better to copy and paste what was posted here with a little modification to describe what the pump drives and how it is driven (to distinguish it from the PTO-driven pumps).

And, wonder if there are PTO-driven pumps that meet the same/close to the same specs and are still in production?

Yes, better to copy and paste what was posted here with a little modification to describe what the pump drives and how it is driven (to distinguish it from the PTO-driven pumps).

And, wonder if there are PTO-driven pumps that meet the same/close to the same specs and are still in production?

Here is pictures of the pump on a 1999 U270

I have just sent a commitment email request to Mr Morris fingers cross this will help them make a decision fast . Rick

Mike,
Thank you for all the work and follow-up you did on this pump situation.  I'm sure it was a real pain gathering all this information while at the same time getting your wife back to work and your coach back on the road.

I just finished sending am email to Mr. Morris at the address you provided.

I urge everyone on this site to communicate to Mr. Morris your financial commitment for a pump purchase.  I realize it could be a chunk of money just sitting on your spare parts shelf that you may never use, but just imagine being stuck somewhere and the pump being unavailable.

While I realize making a commitment does not guarantee pumps or rebuild parts/kits being made, if enough demand is there to make it financially viable, the company will respond.  They are there to make money.

Maybe as a group, we can make this happen!

Idea,take your old shaft that is in 2 pieces,hope you saved it,if this is the main part that breaks,take it to a machine shop and see
what they would charge to make 10 or twenty shafts and split the cost among us,seals and gaskets can be made and found.

Idea,take your old shaft that is in 2 pieces,hope you saved it,if this is the main part that breaks,take it to a machine shop and see
what they would charge to make 10 or twenty shafts and split the cost among us,seals and gaskets can be made and found.

Hydraulic pumps that I have taken apart could be driven cw or ccw-- they were gears that were meshed together so if you changed direction with drive you changed sides with supply line
Chris

The more I Think about this problem and what causes the shaft to snap it brings me back to my steering box . My steering box started to leak from the end cap so I ordered a seal kit when I removed the end cap to replace the seal just the end cap seal there were small bits of a very hard substance all in very small pieces around the bearing if you put all the pieces together it would have made a circle someone said at the time it was glue that they use to keep the seal or bearings in place when they assemble the steering box new at the factory and that it deteriorated and braking apart I figured that's  why the seal is leaking because of this substance. I left on a trip to Florida and on my way down the Pittman seal started to leak when I got to Florida I had to have the box replaced I brought it to Paul Yasbeck in Leesburg Florida and he suggested I service the hydraulic reservoir so I did and I ask him to replace all the belts and tensioner's because the hydraulic pump tensioner was jumping . About a year after back home in Canada I started the coach up one day and a loud bang noise was coming from the engine I thought there was a connecting rod come through the block that how loud it was I shut it down  I open the engine door all look good so I started it back up and ran to back and the tensioner was slapping back and Forth against the hydraulic pump pulley very fast and hard I shut it down went back to the tensioner it look OK put a strong arm on it and move it back and forth the tensioner felt good and had a good strong tension it look and felt fine started it up and everything was running perfect the tensioner was as steady as new no jumping at all I didn't take a chance I replace the tensioner now I m thinking that that hard substance from the steering box was passed  through the hydraulic system and was jamming the pump Could it be this substance jammed the pump and shear the pump shaft maybe the hydraulic tank should be serviced to see if anything is present. I know the filter is suppose to catch any dirt .but something caused that shaft to break

First, why bother with a clone when QCC the manufacturer is willing to possibly still carry them and ALL of the parts for this

The more I Think about this problem and what causes the shaft to snap it brings me back to my steering box . My steering box  I m thinking that that hard substance from the steering box was passed  through the hydraulic system and was jamming the pump Could it be this substance jammed the pump and shear the pump shaft maybe the hydraulic tank should be serviced to see if anything is present. I know the filter is suppose to catch any dirt .but something caused that shaft to break

If so, that would suggest that somehow the debris bypassed or got through the filters in the reservoir???

Mike, I appreciate all the effort you have put into this and hopefully QCC will start making them again.  So far QCC hasn't agreed to make anything, so getting some shafts made by a machine shop seems like a good alternative if QCC says no.  I sent my nephew the blueprint and he will take a look. They can do it, just depends on quantity to get a bid.

I'll put something on facebook Foretravel page,many of them don't go here.

Dave,

You are correct, at this moment QCC has not committed to anything. I have been on the phone with simone morris at least a dozen times in the past week. I know and have documentation on every facet of the 41188 as well as know a small bit about the others on the list. Simone was incredibly helpful and as helping me came to realize that QCC should maybe continue to source the parts that caused these to no longer being manyfactured. She called a meeting last week and it was agreed by those present that continued sourcing was good for them as well as the consuming industry. However. The head of finance who was in vacation needed to also approve and that would not happen until this week or next.  That does not mean the 41188 or the 41078 would go back into production. But it did mean all the parts for the 41078 (u320) would be in house to build some.  The 41188 still out of shafts would need a reasonable demand fir them to also order the shafts. I can't speak for the others on the list.  But i do know that the two i mention directly affect most if not all of the 295/320 models. Just noticed yours is a 270 and your pics showed yours to also have the 41188. So now from a foretravel view we know 3 models are affected by just the 41188.

Other than informing the masses of this situation, my hopes were to get enough people to step up and show that demand so that QCC would do what they said they might if the demand is there.

NOTE: we still need someone from Foretravel to come up with a schematic piping/flow diagram. I put out a special post just for this, but not 1 person has responded. Sorry Ive been pretty busy with many things not only this, I have not had the time to lay on my back and do a drawing of all the flow etc....maybe one of you that want to go a different route can do that. Attached are all the technical specs I have all in one post. But, its all you need.

Sent one to Morris,Mike,wonder if it would do any good if we reached out to Mr. B3 down under.

Also got a reply,she did'nt even get mad I called her MR.

Here is a copy of the email which I just sent.  Please let me know if I can help with this further.  Thank you so much for all of the efforts.

——Begin email——

Greetings.

I expect that you are receiving inquiries as to the availability of a replacement hydraulic pump which is commonly used by Foretravel brand motorhomes.

As of now I am not in need of a replacement for my motorhome but I would be willing to be purchase a pump and keep it in my personal inventory of parts.  I assume that pricing would not be prohibitive as I expect many within our Foretravel community will also be willing to buy the pump prior to actually having a failure.

If I can be of any assistance to you in getting our group of Foretravel owners organized to give you a commitment, please let me know.

Thank you for your time.

Just to keep everything on the up and up, if one sends a request to Simone, PLEASE be in a position to actually buy a pump.

It does scare me a little from a corporate standpoint  that there is so much interest being expressed  with absolutely no idea of the $$$.

I got with my contact at MOT this morning to see if he could share any email contacts for FOT / Foretravel / MOT. He was able to give me a few at MOT, I found one at FOT that I included, as well as the parts department at FOT. The James Triana that Brett mentioned nothing found.

Just checked our 2000 U270 with ISC 350. Picture attached. I don't see this ID in the thread...does that mean our pump is available if needed?

Randy

Last posted e-mail address for Triana is technical.assistance@foretravel.com

The 40998 is the rear housing number, that part in itself no longer exists at the moment...

According to eBay, there is at least one example in existence...

New 40998 Sauer Danfoss Rear Pump Cover | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/164788950196)

41188 (U270, U295, U320)
41078 (U320)
40994
41063
41079
CPJ-1041
CPJ-1007V
CPJ-1020
CPJ-1007
CPJ-1013

Jimmy got under there and ours has 40998 stamped on it.

Hi Mike
I really appreciate all your research and am sorry for all your pump trouble, it's amazing what persistence and determination gets you! I am happy you got the last shaft.
I have a 99 U270 350hp
The numbers are: rear housing 40998 and pump 1746
I have sent an email to Simone.
You mentioned belt tension: with engine off I have a 1/2" play when top belt is pushed down until the tensioned moves and about 1/4" constant movement in the tensioner when the engine is running, is this too much, now I am anxious that this could cause a problem.
Thank you
David

David,

Look again for the engine number, there is no such as a 1746, mine also had a number like that on it, and never did figure out what that number meant.. I found the pump number stamped in MUCH SMALLER punch sizes. Based on the general feedback, your vintage of coach, and engine size, Id be shocked if you dont also find the 41188 there.

If I really zoom in on your picture with the 1746 I think I see something on the opposite end, but upper section.

So far we have only identified 2 of the 10 that are used on the 270-295 & 320 coaches. If you are belt driven its probably the 41188, if your pump is direct engine gear driven its the 41078, both on the list. The later 320s seem to be the only ones that are direct driven.

As for the tension, your spring loaded tensioner decides how much tension the belt should have. The general consensus seems to be whether it be owners or Hydraulic shops talking the subject, that when the engine is idling OR running at speed, you should have little to no bounce of the tensioner/belt assembly as a whole. If you have excessive bounce, that in itself is undue vibration on a tapered shaft. I do recall when I first bought my coach it had quit a bit of bounce, actually both of my tensioners did. One of my first things to do was to replace all my belts and my tensioners.

What also comes recommended is to run the HD gates Green back belts for the Hyd system, this belt is a heavier build than the regular gates belt for such, and will help keep the system tight and not loosen as much over time.
Amazon.com: Gates K080465HD FleetRunner Micro-V Serpentine Drive Belt :... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CIEDKW?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)
(the one my 295 runs, be sure about yours)

So Mike I think you brought up a very important point with the better belt. I still think that this failure is do to the loads on the pulley. A better belt would evenly load the inside of the pulley reducing loads applied to the end of the pulley.

So Mike I think you brought up a very important point with the better belt. I still think that this failure is do to the loads on the pulley. A better belt would evenly load the inside of the pulley reducing loads applied to the end of the pulley. If a lesser quality belt is used it may actually stretch on the inside allowing more loads father out on the pulley and ultimately farther out on the shaft increasing the shaft loads and shaft flex leading to fatigue failures. This also would explain why we haven't seen ISM direct driven failures do to direct drive with zero side loads. IMO

***  UPDATE from the original poster ***

Obviously, the Thanksgiving holiday made some of this take a bit of time.

From QCC. The customer end user/contact on this matter has been highly impressive. The sales and planning departments are on board with continued sourcing. They are at the moment obtaining quotes for the both the shafts as well as the rear housings for the 10 discontinued pumps.

FOT, parts department manager ( Brad Langford) contact me yesterday. They agree this is an issue that  affects countless FT coaches, and needs to be addressed. They are in contact with QCC / Simone Morris to come up with some sort of solution.

Mike
Thank you for all your help, I am going ahead and changing out the belt and tensioner possibly closing the barn door after the horse has left but it may save the pump for now considering there is only 65000 miles on it.
I tried to find another number on the housing but when I tried to clean it off a bit more it froze over with the cold, then ran the engine to warm it up and searched, even used a mirror but nothing. My name should be Simone's list, she was out today and as soon as they say they are resuming production I will  pull the pump and see if the number is under the bracket.
With all your research that affects so many coaches you should be immediately awarded an honorary "Hero  Status" on the forum. 🏆
Thanks
David

I am glad that my efforts, as well as the support of the community has shown the manufacturing industry, and at least OUR brand, that the demand is still there and needed.

Mike,

If it weren't for your efforts, both in collecting information and identifying, then reaching out to, the key players and then communicating the sense of urgency to the membership of Foreforums, and if the forum membership hadn't responded so solidly in its interest and support, it's highly unlikely we would have the good outcome these efforts have produced.

Foretravel would have continued along the "NLA" path, with a serious detriment and possibly black eye to the brand when coaches could no longer be repaired because of the unavailability of such a basic, "out of sight, out of mind" component.  QCC might have scrapped the specs/drawings for these pumps since they were no longer supported and they didn't know about the level of user base still out there.  I feel that it's because of the efforts and communications to the key parties by members of this forum that a potential "hard stop" has been averted.

I have never been so proud of this forum's membership.

X2

Just spoke with Simone, at QCC and they have started the process for making more pumps, they have put out bids for whatever is needed. She has everyone's emails and will respond with pricing and availability as soon as they get the details.
THIS IS GREAT NEWS!
If you have not sent an email it's not too late
mailto:  simone@qccorp.com [<= e-mail address corrected - Michelle]
I told her that I could not find the second required number without removing the pump which I would be happy to do if they start making them again. Equally I said that I would be happy to put a deposit down if required.

Thanks for your efforts. My 2008 Foretravel Nimbus has the discussed 41188 pump, which is failing as of yesterday. It making an extremely mechanical high pitch sound.

If this is indeed a noise from inside the pump (VS belt noise), I would not run the engine-- you could be sending shavings into your cooling fans and power steering pump.

To check, remove the belt and turn the pump by hand and check for play.

When were the oil and filters changed last and what oil are you using,the tensioner may " seem fine" but may be bad,best way to
check is with engine running and look for bouncing,but follow above advice and don't run til you know more,check the condition of the oil by using the dipstick cap.

Just spoke with Simone, at QCC and they have started the process for making more pumps, they have put out bids for whatever is needed. She has everyone's emails and will respond with pricing and availability as soon as they get the details.
THIS IS GREAT NEWS!
If you have not sent an email it's not too late
mailto:  simone@qcccorp.com
I told her that I could not find the second required number without removing the pump which I would be happy to do if they start making them again. Equally I said that I would be happy to put a deposit down if required.

Note to all that the correct email is:
simone@qccorp.com
(instead of qcccorp.com)

Simone Morris' email is correct in my posting on Page 3. (IRISH no doubt made an honest mistake)

ive been all through the 41188 recently. VERY light clicks were heard in mine, but only when it was on the bench and was not flooded with fluid. There is a bit of slack in the gears as they rotate (dry) and I felt that is what i was hearing. There is nothing internal that would cause a squeaking or squealing unless maybe your are running it dry. The 2 very hard shafts run on bronze plates, dissimilar metals can squeak if not properly lubed.

1st if your tensioner is bouncing, that is not good and could be detrimental. I would immediately order a new tensioner and the heavier belt I mention earlier in this thread. Dont run it until you replace those and the next.
2nd I would consider a filter/fluid change based on what you mention above.....especially if you have no proof that it has ever been done.

MOT closing statement was to consider re-engineering the system.

I suggest you read this entire thread, to fully understand everything. I posted a video on a properly running system for example.

Maybe someone could provide the forum members with the year and model coaches that use this particular pump that is also used for the power steering? If that is the only reason these shops won't rebuild the pumps, they may rebuild one if it isn't associated with the power steering.

Our 95 has the power steering pump attached to the air compressor and is gear driven. The Hyd pump only supplies the cooling fans but it is belt driven and appears to have the same tapered / keyed shaft.

(not to hijack, but Nimbus/Phenix coaches have a whole 'nother issue with the hydraulic fans/dry PTO that drives them, but that PTO only powers the cooling fans, not the power steering)

Actually, my' 08 Nimbus' hydraulic system powers the radiator fans and power steering. In fact, it uses the same 41188 pump at the center of discussion here and near identical hydraulic fan motors.

I wonder why a tapered shaft was necessary?

The taper and keyway locates a hub for the pulley to mount, where as a straight shaft would not fix the location of the pulley.

Knowing somewhat how Foretravel did things,think they used whatever was availible,your point taken craneman but look at all the truck and car pulleys that are pressed on a straight shaft.

I wonder why a tapered shaft was necessary?  My coach isn't close now so can't look. 

I cannot emphasize enough......the next person that has a failure on a 41188....all your possible wealth will not buy you a fix.....THERE ARE NO PUMPS OR PARTS,....YET, but there might be if the demand is there. QCC is working toward a resolution, but its been made pretty clear that will probably be a limited run resolution.

The straight or tapered is a non issue because failure was on the thick end, not in the tapered area. The keyway IMO localized stress contributing to failure point. Regardless if semi reasonable priced  I like others will purchase a replacement pump to carry and probably never use ( ISM direct drive mount) but will help collectively promote a demand for at least another run of these pumps. It would be a wonderful time for them to incorporate a resolution to prevent this from happening in the future on the new pump line, but that may be a whole new bag worms also who knows

Hopefully QCC comes through.  In the mean time, no need to stress quite so much.  As I mentioned back on page 4, shafts can be made if it comes to that. 

 I might add, 3 of the hydraulic shops refused to do rebuilds and warrant such, EVEN though I was getting the shafts direct from QCC...I was never going to ask someone to do what I can do myself, but I did ask....why would they not warranty you might ask? all 3 said the same thing, they refused to warranty any item associated with a vehicular safety/Steering system, and really did not even want to to do the rebuild at this level..

If vibration is any part of the shaft failure then the harmonic balancers deserve a looksee,there are posts from years ago about
failures and replacing,there are sites with pictures to compare yours to,we have the 8.3 12 valve and replaced ours years ago,
made a slight difference and was easy to do yourself.

Unless you personally are willing to step and up and manufacture those shafts, good luck finding anyone that will. And if you do, you surely would have to lie about the application to get it done.

In the meantime, I wanted to add something about the "green" belt and the jumping tensioner. Mine does that from time to time for the last 8 years, but it only happens during winter months when the temperature goes below 45-50 degrees. So, I use belt conditioner, and that solves the bouncing issue when it's cold outside. I have been using that heavy-duty "green" belt for 8 years now (change the belt about every 5-6K miles).

I mentioned this to Keith Risch; he was curious to find out if a slightly shorter belt could help. However, since belt conditioner solves the bouncing issue, I am thinking a softer belt may be better to use.
Al

Mike,
Did you ever find a new (not overhauled) pump?
Sometimes o/h parts are just someone else's problem.

[quote author=mkc1962 link=msg=479219 Unless you personally are willing to step and up and manufacture those shafts, good luck finding anyone that will. And if you do, you surely would have to lie about the application to get it done.

Will QCC have to lie about what the shafts are for when they seek bids from machine shops to make them?  My nephew mentioned that he remembers bidding quite a few jobs like this from QCC but only "winning" 1 or 2 because some other company underbid them. 
Just think of the different parts involved in the hydraulic/steering system mentioned in this thread.  If the manufacturer of every piece of the puzzle had to guarantee that it would never fail, nothing would get made.
Again, I applaud your efforts and hope that QCC offers the pumps again.  Just saying that if they don't, there are other options.

As I asked much earlier in this thread, has anyone been able to get the pump specs from Foretravel.

Hydraulic pumps are not rocket science.  Knowing flow and PSI at given RPM (have to look at pump pulley diameter vs crank pulley diameter when discussing pump RPM) could lead to a current replacement.

Many years ago, I went through this exact kind of issue.  We were in Fort Davis State Park one cold December (snow on the ground) and the hydraulic pump "puked" several gallons of fluid on start up.  A call to Foretravel revealed that our hydraulic pump was no longer available. BAD NEWS!

But, they did have a replacement "new style" pump, but it required a new pressure regulator to bring PSI into OE specs.  Oh, and new hoses and hose routing.  In Fort Davis, TX-- not so much.

The bad news, it was really cold (in the 20's), so no fun working under the coach.  The good news is that by driving slowly and stopping to let the engine cool (never got over 205 degree) F and going substantially downhill we got to  Alpine TX. Small, friendly town.  Found a nursery (closed for the winter) a block from a big NAPA store who made a lot of hydraulic hoses for the ranchers in the area.  Measured the many hoses needed and their hose guy came over to see what fittings/ends were needed on each.  A day later we were back on the road.

I have to believe there are alternative pumps that would meet the OE specs, but will likely require interest from Foretravel Corp in assisting owners of older coaches. That has not necessarily proven true in the past.  Hopefully it will now.

No question, this is a distant "Plan B" vs all the hard work being spearheaded by Mike in getting production back on the OE pump.

This topic may have temporally saved us from disaster, because of Mikes findings, info and the video I realized that there should be no movement of the tensioner pulley.
Per the forum info ordered a new pulley and green HD belt and just installed them. Now it runs with no movement sparing the pump from the added pulsating lateral load on the pump shaft/ bearings.
Tried to add a video but I guess it's not possible.
Thanks again Mike !

Sounds like the legal profession in our country may have driven the engineers and component manufacturers into a corner.

Yes, my "replaces" pump from Foretravel Parts Dept was 20 years ago.

SAD!

But, wonder if the engineers at Foretravel would step up and spec and "bless" a replacement.  That would clear the component manufacturers of any liability. It would also give Foretravel Corp another profit source in addition to keeping existing customer base happy/loyal.  Probably a decision for upper management, not engineering.

The safety issue seems a stretch because if you break a belt you are in the same situation while driving. The only difference is the down time.

I talked with my nephew again about this and the possibility of having shafts made IF needed.  He confirmed that it would not be a problem at all.  The company doesn't ask what stuff is for aside from possibly someone asking out of curiosity. 
Even without QCC, a broken shaft does not mean lawn ornament status.

I agree on the ability to have a new shaft made. But unless someone wants to make up some shafts and seal kit's for purchase , ain't going to do you much good broken down in podunk junction beside the road 1000 miles from home.

Replacing the hydraulic pump with another off the shelf pump is not rocket science. Find a pump with the proper flow, pressure and rpm. Make a mount and mount it. The first picture is shop built race car. The engine turns 9,200 rpm and belts drive the oil and hydraulic pumps. Engine cost about $70,000 and failure of a pump is not an option. The second picture is the pump and mount in question. Tractor simple. Welded mount easily modified to accommodate a different pump. Simple belt drive with a steel pulley easy to modify for a different pump drive. Panic  over a shaft problem is not rational. Find a racecar shop or agriculture equipment repair shop and solve the problem.

Did the pump run the steering and the fan motors in 1981

Once parts or Prices are available plz post them.. Id like to get a spare at some point and preferably before it goes out.

Its my understanding that this problem has been shared with multiple websites? To further the supply issue this affects multiple Brands of Motorhomes?

So with that said I highly doubt this will be a limited run. Its not like its 5 people asking for a part So Me thinks this will be a continued service for them as I am sure everyone that owns a model that is and will be affected is Informed they might need one and will need one.. Just an observation.. So to say its a limited run? I think more are affected that one might think.. This was a product used in hundreds of coaches.

Could be wrong ... and Ill send an email just in case but I believe this will be a supply that is needed for many years.

Domo,do you have a picture of the valve and or a part number and where is it located,many of us are curious.

Hmmmm...trying to comprehend how the pressure relief valve got DAMAGED.....as I had  that pump completely torn down to the last part recently, PRV in hand and apart, its nothing but a brass shuttle in a tube with a very heavy spring.  Priority flow divider, also not much to it.

Received an email from Bhavin Brahmbhatt (QCC Product Sales Engineering MANAGER) stating the
41188 will be available soon, and is working up a quote for me shortly.
BTW, the part numbers for the 41188 valves are
Relief valve 20279-004  $180.10 net each, lead time 1-2 weeks
Flow Divider 20276-008  $267 net each, lead time 1 week

Can we buy direct from QCC and who do we contact and information 
Thanks to Mike for all the hard work and staying on this project even after he had his back up that what makes this Form and for all the members coming together

I ponder, what if? Hmm.

I'll order one too, once I get my busy self under the coach and make sure my pump is also the one...
I have a 2003 Cummins ISL 400, so probably it is.
Once the new pump arrives, if I don't use it and three years later, to my luck, it'd be the one that was not manufactured right, by then it is out of warranty, etc.
So, I am thinking when I get it, I'll install it, and the original one will become a spare. With that, I should also buy the parts to rebuild it, so I will have a rebuild original pump as a spare, right?

I sent an email saying I would buy a pump and I will not go back on my word they are making them because we emailed QCC and said we would purchase them not just a certain amount I don't know how many emails they received they maybe running a 100 pumps I don't know the magic number to start reproducing these pumps I also sent a second email on Friday asking how I had to send my deposit the 40% and also asked about buying a seal kit and a shaft as a back up for either pump. I shall take the new  pump and place it in a pail  of oil to keep it in good shape it is a gear pump between the new and the old if something were to go wrong I should be able to make one pump i'll see how much room it takes up in the cargo area to see if I will carry it around with me its is more than $1450.00 for me because that is US currency I'm in Canada plus shipping you add another 40% with  custom charges and brokerage fees I chalk it up as insurance so that I can continue to enjoy my coach . I have contacted and spoke to a hydraulic shop and they said seals aren't a problem they sell QCC PUMPS but if I had a seal kit they would use it re-Bushing it reseal it and run a test volume and pressure. I may go that route. But I feel I have to buy it. I told QCC I would.

Couldn't the shaft integrity be checked with a DyeChem type product to look for defects, at least that would off some piece of mind

Simone did not say this would be a limited run. But, she did state this price offering was only going to be for a short period, and only to those that had made contact over the past few months to support the possibility of returning all of the 10 to production. After those folks did or  did not do whatever they are going to do, then from there the only way you would get one would be at full retail through a retail outlet.....my Comments above about the retail pricing was exact info I obtained from those that last sold those pumps.

Hi everyone,
It seems that the 41188 is the issue at hand.
My understanding is they all use the same housing but are driven differently.
I have not seen much conversation in reference to the 41078 pump and whether it is also going to be  manufactured again by QCC.

Hi everyone,
It seems that the 41188 is the issue at hand.
My understanding is they all use the same housing but are driven differently.
I have not seen much conversation in reference to the 41078 pump and whether it is also going to be  manufactured again by QCC.

Paid deposit for mine today. Kinda hard to pull the trigger but the potential for this to be a near fatal problem made the decision easier.

Pump to be shipped in a plastic bag, after testing, and shipped in a padded container. Simone knows many of these will be "spare parts" so indicated she'll work to have exposed shaft coated with anti-rust as the rest of the housing is aluminum.

Normal warranty is 1 year but I asked how they'd handle warranty for those who simply hold this as "spare parts". Asked I they would consider 1 year from installation knowing that if that was allowed it might mean proof of professional installation. Haven't heard back.

I have a 2002 and do not have access to my coach... Can anyone verify that it has this pump 41188? SO I can get it ordered.

With issue of pump(s) availability being resolved through all the hard work of one of our members. If you  have a 41188 pump with a tapered shaft and are ordering a new pump, you may want to think about the pulley, adapter, and nut. When the shaft breaks the broken shaft pulley and adapter may go to parts unknown, without them a new pump doesn't help. The pulley it's self is a Cummins 3046206, the adapter is supposedly a FT part # P38910. As of 3 weeks ago they had one in stock. With that said I doubt FT had that part custom made. More research required!

For those of you that may have a straight shaft pump like ours on our '95 - U280 it's made by
John Barnes Corp model# W9A2-1800118, Simone is trying to find out if they can cross reference it to something they may have or can produce.
She said she would get back with me.

For those of you that may have a straight shaft pump like ours on our '95 - U280 it's made by
John Barnes Corp model# W9A2-1800118, Simone is trying to find out if they can cross reference it to something they may have or can produce.
She said she would get back with me.

Pump ordered, deposit paid with a ship date of April. Current price is unadvertised and limited to those who call and order, they are not accepting wholesale orders until the early orders are on their books.

Was it ever confirmed if this pump was used on the U320?  Mine is a 2002 and will buy one if it uses that pump.  I did get the email from Simone a week or two ago...

What 320 has a belt driven pump? That should be verified as it casts doubt about the M-11 configuration.

Crane,

I have not had the time to go back and look exactly whom stated it, But there was a response from someone early on that they identified the 41188 as their pump on their 320....

I just scanned the entire topic and don't see a post indicating that one coach.  A couple of people asking, but none stating their U320 has a 41188.

domotang has it on a 2008 Nimbus, which would also be an ISL.

Maybe they removed it, but there was a post about such at one time, and the minute I saw it I updated the list info.. I will update my list (IF I CAN) as I dont want to give any false info.

It appears I can no longer edit that one.....Michelle, IF Possible, please remove the 320 from the ( ) adjacent to the 41188....Post # 60

But Each still needs to 100% check their own numbers, not rely on others to determine what is on their coaches.

Update to all that have a pump on order with QCC.

I got in touch with Simone at Qcc in the past few days. All of the parts for the 41188 and others that share similar parts should be in stock within the next week or two. They are expecting to have pumps going out to customers sometimes after the 21st of this month.

Is your pump located at the transmission, or the side of the motor? If it's at the transmission yes it's related to the issue Brad had. If it is a dry PTO ( like Brads) It usually doesn't junk the pump splines, just the PTO coupler.

It's belt driven on the motor.

Crawled underneath my 07 Nimbus (ISM 500) yesterday - after cleaning off a bunch of greasy dirt, I wasn't able to find 41188, but I did find 40988 stamped on the large flat surface.  I looked near the bolts where others have shown stamps - none to be found. 

Called FT, they said that I have the 41188 (without asking what build number).  There also doesn't seem to be a plan to stock any units at FOT.  I reached out to Simone to see if all units in the first batch have been spoken for.

Pump arrived, Simone called late last night and said it had shipped!
Feel a whole lot happier!

Can anyone confirm I'm safe from this issue with my ORED/Cat 3208? I figure I should verify instead of assuming.

So the good news is that my hydraulic pump assembly number is not in that list (1407020).

Have you looked on EBAY? I was surprised to find a lot of NOS Cummins engine parts on EBAY that didn't show up on Google search.

Elliott,

That looks like a power steering pump.  Does your coach only have one hydraulic pump?  Some of the later model coaches (like ours) used two hydraulic pumps.  On our U280 there is one pump (belt driven) for the cooling fan motors, and a second pump (mounted on the back end of the engine air compressor) for the power steering system.  Our coach also has two separate hydraulic oil reservoirs supplying the two pumps.  Just curious how your coach is configured...

As the instigator/discoverer of the NLA status.... mine has finally arrived. When i get caught up around here, I'll be installing mine as well as the pulley support mod i posted in reply 309. My old rebuilt pump will be my spare.

Fyi, the developer of that mod has put over 4k miles on his prototype. He's manufactured a less weld version for himself and one for me as i was interested. He is willing to sell his prototype to anyone interested. Contact info if interested is in post 309 of this thread. Ask for Larry.

For those of you that may have a straight shaft pump like ours on our '95 - U280 it's made by
John Barnes Corp model# W9A2-1800118,

Folks,

I honestly believe, due to this problem and subsequent resolution for the moment, I have not received so many emails and phone calls in all my life. But that is perfectly OK, Ive learned a lot more about the technical aspects of our coach, and don't mind at all sharing what Ive learned. Making new freinds in life is also never a bad thing. Maybe 1 day we get to meet.

I have had one gentleman that has recently contacted me, showing thanks for all I have done but at the same time also working on a possible solution/improvement to the system. Not just talking about it, the way so many have done, but actually doing something. There are many opinions on what actually causes these tapered shafts to occasionally break. I think most technically minded individuals would agree that being tapered (weakest of all shafts designs) as well as lateral loading are probably key components to eventual failure. Here is a Prototype of an idea to deal with lateral loading that 1 member has done. He has done so on his personal 2001 U295. So far has run it 600 miles, but is about to head out on about a 3200 mile trip, then take it apart for inspection. Personally I think he has a pretty slick idea that can be seen as an improvement to the system. I don't think he really wants to produce these for sale as he is retired. But he does plan to share all of his design specs after proving all aspects of success. He has asked me to post his pictures in my thread, as well as provide a contact number if anyone is interested in pursuing the approach.

Eventually these pumps will become extinct again. We all know through my research, NOBODY of an official Hydraulic supplier or machine shop wants to seem to help with any sort of re-engineering of the pump unit itself. Though lots or owners have suggested there has to be a way to re-engineer, NONE have come forward with any ideas or suggestions. To create a possible solution that will let what we have, stand a chance of lasting much longer, I see this as at least a step in the right direction.

If interested in contacting this person. 253-350-8695

Can enough of us get together and find someone to produce this for us like the pump? If we order a dozen or more, maybe we can get it done. Or we could get together and build a few. I am a very amateur welder but have enough parking space to accommodate 5-6 FT's and a couple of 50AMP plugs, water, and septic.

Drawings indicate that it will not fit a  C8.3 mechanical, what makes it different?

I ordered a pump from Simone today.  It should ship in about a week.

THANK YOU Mike in AL!

david

Curious what type of failure on Gary's pump, if you know

Thanks
Mike.

I don't install new pump. I place the new pump in a pale of oil and sealed it. Put the new pump in the storage compartment.  the old pump works the best and I I'll be able to see if it will ever let go. Why replace something that works the best.  I'll keep it for back up may never have to use it but i have my back up plus I order a shaft and seal kit so I have two back up plans. Just add it to my spare parts.

I don't install new pump. I place the new pump in a pale of oil and sealed it. Put the new pump in the storage compartment.  the old pump works the best and I I'll be able to see if it will ever let go. Why replace something that works the best.  I'll keep it for back up may never have to use it but i have my back up plus I order a shaft and seal kit so I have two back up plans. Just add it to my spare parts.

The best reason to replace a working pump is because they came from a known bad batch.

I think I have read this topic front to back and have never seen the possibility of a bad batch of pumps being eluded to. I would have a hard time blaming a pump failure on a bad batch when most of these have been running for twenty plus years.

I think I have read this topic front to back and have never seen the possibility of a bad batch of pumps being eluded to. I would have a hard time blaming a pump failure on a bad batch when most of these have been running for twenty plus years.

Those who install the new pump, how are you getting the old one rebuild?

In gathering my "rescue kit" after receiving the pump from Simone, I got the pulley online and Simone advises this for the NUT I have seen mentioned.

The pump does not come with the nut.

The drawing calls for

.625-18 UNF-2A thread

 Thought th info might be useful to others doing the same.
Now to get "the adapter".

Kindest regards,

Received my 41078 hydraulic pump from Simone to add to the spare parts box.  I was a little hesitant to spend the $$ since there does not seem to be a history of failures, but decided to go ahead and bite the bullet. 

Should I order anything else to go with this if I need to replace the original pump in the future?

Thanks for all the organizing mkc1962.

Rick, correct. Pulley from Cummins and adaptor from FOT.

That is a nice piece of engineering! and should do the trick to help prevent future failure. Is that bolted to the pump mounting bracket or welded? Has anyone installed their new pump Yet?
My seal is leaking on my pump and 1 cooling fan so I'm going change out the pump, hoses and seal's on both fans this winter.

Mike that looks good. Double shearing is a huge improvement. Wonder is the increased mass will effect anything. How often should that bearing be Lubed? At least it will be effortless to access.