This morning the coach started right up but after a few minutes began sputtering and died. I thought the problem might be the fuel filters, so I changed both. Now it just turns over but won't start. I still think the original problem was the filters. Any ideas on what else I should try to get it going?
Do you still have the old pre-filter system? If so, sucking air? WINN 300200 pre-filter (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=45980.0)
I'm not sure of your fuel system but on my 8.3 even after prefilling both my filters I will still have to manually prime my 8.3 3 to 4 times before it picks up and continue to idle even with holding the throttle open. Some are more finicky than others.
Speculating that you have a "prime by using the electric fuel pump" engine. At least, my 2003 Cummins ISL did.
To prime:
Turn key to first position and listen for the fuel pump (best if you are at the back right side of the coach while someone else turns the key from off to first position. Pump should run for 20 or so seconds.
If high RPM, it is pumping AIR. If so, repeat ignition off, first position... until pump RPM drops (fuel= lower RPM than air).
Be aware that leaks at the fuel pump are very common on this vintage engine. Perhaps minor fuel leak when sitting, but big time sucks air when pumping.
Please let us know if this is how your engine works.
A forum member walked me through bleeding the system. I am getting fuel at the cylinder head on all cylinders, but it still won't start. I am calling it a day and will take a fresh look in the morning.
I imagine your engine is a computerized engine so it could be a sensor. Have you got any
way to get codes.
Since install of my FASS system i have to lite bleed at the pressure sensor on the caps pump.... mine will run but throws a fuel control system code until i lightly burp it...may be similar sensor on yours.
I'd check that the engine ECM has power. Cummins engines are pretty simple on the start requirements, Power to the ECM and get it to spin and it does the rest. Is your check engine light or wait to start light working? Are you seeing any RPM on the tach when cranking? If you are getting fuel to the injectors, the next thing to check is that the ECM is working and actually firing the injectors.
The check engine and wait to start lights are working. I do see rpm on the tach when cranking. I have the Blue Fire device and it has given me the code shown in the attachment a number of times, but the last several times I tried to start it did not give me the code. One time I saw several codes under inactive codes, and two were fuel system codes. Unfortunately I did not save them, but one had to do with the fuel controller or fuel control module.
Cummins SPN 629 FMI 12 is an ECM problem. Possibly low voltage:
Cummins SPN 629 - FMI 12 (Fault Code 343) - iRV2 Forums (https://www.irv2.com/forums/f103/cummins-spn-629-fmi-12-fault-code-343-a-432546.html)
So how is the voltage when cranking and have you tried using the boost switch?
The voltage is showing 14.3 in the Blue Fire App. I have tried the boost switch. I am trying to locate the ECM now to check the connections.
I seriously doubt that your
start batteries show 14.3 volts while cranking. The Blue Fire app may be reading coach battery volts?
If the Blue Fire voltage does not drop when cranking with boost switch activated, I would suspect boost solenoid is inoperative.
Sorry, that was not the voltage while cranking. While cranking it drops into the 10.5 range.
I am always skeptical of two unrelated issues happening at the same time.
Electrical issue? Fuel issue (immediately after changing fuel filters)?
Have you used the electric fuel pump as I described above to purge air? Did the RPM/sound of the pump change as air was replaced with fuel??
I am also skeptical of coincidences. I did try the pump as you described. I am not certain of the sound change, but I also bled the injector lines individually and got good fuel flow.
Per first post, the issue began before the fuel filters were changed:
If the issue never was the fuel, do the symptoms (sputtering and running rough for maybe a minute before dying) seem consistent with an ECM problem?
What did the fuel in the old filters look like? It would take a lot of gunk to kill an engine "at idle". A lot less trash/water will cause one to perform under load poorly or even stop but to kill an engine at idle, we'll I will put it this way, I don't recall any of my heavy duty diesels ever not idle because of trash, run like crap and may not pull but 20 mph but die at idle I personally have not had that. Did my best to be clear with my words.immediately after a filter change all I said does not apply if filters were the issue.
I don't think it looked terrible. I had another time when the engine began to run badly under load, losing power but never dying, and the fuel this time did not look as bad. There were dark particles in it, but not to the extent I saw the other time.
That code means either the ECM is dead, or it has a voltage problem. The power to the ECM is on a 4 pin Deutsch connector going into the ECM. 2 power wires and 2 ground wires. I would take a look at that connector and make sure the connections are good. Might just be a loose wire going to that connector or a bad fuse for the ECM power.
I would think if the ECM weren't functioning correctly, it would impact how it controlled the engine systems, including fuel delivery.
Do you have any idea where the ECM might be? I have looked everywhere I can think of but haven't found it.
Just to help eliminate the possibility that I still have a fuel issue, I took one of the injector lines loose and used a tube to collect the fuel into a container. In ten seconds, it pumped 2 ounces of fuel, and that was after the what was in the line drained out when I took it loose. I have no idea whether that is normal, though.
Should be mounted on the lower part of engine block, just above where oil pan is bolted to the block. Often times on drivers side but could be opposite. I've had more series 60 Detroits than Cummins.
Possibly similar to that for an ISM - note the discussion of a couple of corroded fuse holders causing an engine to die..
Engine Dying While Running (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=34282.0)
It should be mounted to the engine block on the "cold side" of the engine. Opposite side of the turbo.
The post that Michelle linked sounds dead on for your issue.
I also had to change out my fuse holders they were badly corroded. I found that after my engine
wouldn't start.
I believe I have located the ECM, but it is very difficult to get to. I have some fuses mounted on the inside of the bed, where the battery isolator is mounted, that I think are the fuses for the ECM. They are the same type of automotive fuse holders except they are screwed to a panel. They appear to be the fuses in the engine wiring drawing that go to a multi pin connector for the ECM. The fuses are all good.
I still cannot get the coach to start. The two codes in the attached photo are the only codes I am getting. The first one is active and the second inactive. The symptoms from when the coach first shut off make me lean toward the problem being related to the fuel system, but Cummins tech support suggests I should have the ECM tested based on the active 111 code. I have two questions:
1. Has anyone had any experience with a similar issue involving these fault codes?
2. Since the 277 code indicates a possible issue with the injector control valve, does anyone have any experience working on the injector control valve? I am hesitant to tear into it without knowing what I am getting into. I do have the Cummins repair procedure.
Dave any way to check the fuel pressure, like teeing off the secondary filter and adding a gauge, seems that if you have fuel at the injectors she should make smoke
Yes, it seems like it should run. The injector control valve, as I understand it, controls the amount and timing of the fuel to the injectors. I know the fuel is getting there, but there could be an issue with how much or the timing of the delivery. I can't get a mobile technician who I have any confidence in to come out, so I am considering having it towed to a Cummins service center.
How about disconnecting the battery for a reset,
I did try that. I disconnected both the start batteries and the house batteries, made sure the charger was off, disconnected the coach from shore power, and disconnected the solar panels to be sure there was no way the ECM could be getting power. I left everything off for about twenty minutes, but there was no change.
Likely down to the point you need to get a Cummins person the bring his scan tools. Sounds like an ecm not firing the injectors. Make sure they have Cummins diagnostic tools not generic, they should be able to find the issue rather quickly.
I have it scheduled to be towed to Cummins in Austin, but because of the holiday they can't get to it until the 27th.
I haven't been able to get the coach towed, but I did have a mechanic take a look. He is not really familiar with this engine, but he confirmed that it appears to be getting fuel to the injectors. He advised me to try some starting fluid to see if it would try to start. I hadn't tried starting fluid because I had heard that it is not advised on diesels. I tried it and the engine did try to start. I am also now getting white smoke but before I didn't get any. I don't know whether I should try the starting fluid more. Also, what does the white smoke indicate?
Dave,
Ether/starting fluid is NOT recommended for any diesel engine with an intake manifold heater.
Ether (explosive) and red hot heater grid............
White smoke indicates un burned fuel.
You can substitute WD40 or better yet some of the silicone lube sprays for starting fluid. They say that starting fluid tends to dry out the cylinder walls. You may want to bleed all your injector lines of any air, starting with the one farthest away from the fuel pump. Also make sure there is no air in the filters, even a small bubble it won't start, I've been there done that.
I did try the WD-40, but it didn't work at all. The starting fluid I used is supposed to be for diesel and gas engines and contains a cylinder lubricant. I do think it is a fuel issue of some kind, but I am supposed to get it towed tomorrow (if Progressive follows through--a whole different story). If the tow comes, I think I will let the experts figure it out.
Read thru all the posts again,what shape is your air filter in,something you could check while waiting and have you tried starting
while running the block heater to warm the engine.It will turn over faster with warmer oil.Those dark particles might be algae/bacteria,I would get some Diesel kleen and some bacteria
additive and put the maximum amount in,boost the cetane and that will help it start.
I finally got the coach to Cummins in Austin on Tuesday. They diagnosed it on Wednesday and the verdict is the fuel pump died. So they are ordering a fuel pump. You don't even want to know what it will cost.
Assuming this is a CAPS fuel system (depends on when engine was manufactured):
Fuel pump or CAPS pump? One is $$, the other $$$$$$$.
If fuel pump, a known issue, particularly for leaks (fuel out and AIR IN). Not a big job to replace.
This is the $$$$$$$.
The Isl Should be a high pressure common rail fuel system? I wonder if it's the HIGH pressure fuel pump or the control module for the electric fuel injectors?
Depends on the engine production date. Could be one of the last CAPS system engines or could indeed be the high pressure common rail fuel system.
A quick call to Cummins Corp with your engine serial number will give you the answer.
Cummins 800-286-6467
This is an ISL. The pump is the CAPS pump.
Understand.
But, the different answers are based on the fact that your engine is at the very very end of CAPS engines. And, depending on when Foretravel built your coach, could be CAPS or the high pressure common rail fuel system that started in 2004.
So, we could not know which system you have without your engine serial number.
All is good......
Dave do they have any idea what caused the failure
I asked that. I wanted to know if there was anything I might have done that caused it or anything that might have prevented it, but the service person said that they just fail sometimes. He said that things like not driving it a lot or bad fuel would not cause the pump to fail. Apparently it is just the luck of the draw. Like they used to say on Hee-Haw, if it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all.
That's exactly why I reccomeded to use some diesel kleen,just got off their site,it is used to lubricate the fuel system and the fuel pumps,for the guy to say they just fail sounds like a lame answer.
Sorry I didn't see this when you had the problem.
Our build is only 15 coaches after yours. We also have an ISL400 with CAPS.
We had a similar problem and it ended up being a bad Injector Control Valve, p/n 4089662RX
Lost power stuck roadside - Page 2 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=44520.25)
I use Diesel Klein with every tank of fuel, but that didn't save me. Sometimes things do just fail.
I did tested the electrical function of the injector control valve myself, and it appeared to be OK. Cummins also tested it and it passed. They said the pump is not building enough pressure. If I understand correctly, and I plan on double checking this on Monday, they are replacing the entire assembly, which includes the injector control valve. I hope I have that right because I wouldn't want to have the old injector control valve since my understanding is they fail more often than the pump.
Have they test the pressure relief valve a little blow by from this valve would cause a low fuel rail pressue
Beginning in 1998, Cummins introduced the ISC based off the earlier mechanical 8.3 C-series engine. The original ISC engine featured a Cummins Accumulator Pump System (CAPS).
This CAPS pump was a computer controlled injection pump,with individual fuel lines to each injector.
In 2003 the HPCR system was introduced.
Cummins Accumulator Pump System (CAPS) fuel injection pump for Cummins 6 cylinder C series engines where used in heavy duty on-road, agricultural applications and many Motor-home applications. CAPS systems had many failures due to air leaks on the Lift pumps. CAPS pumps then fail due to lack of lubrication costing in the 4K and up range.
According to his signature this is a 2004. he shouldnt have the CAPS system.
The common rail pumps seem to last better and cost lessBUTfuel injectors fail sooner and are real grossly expensive. If I owned a caps system i would be looking to spend more money to delete the required draw on the pump inlet and install some sort of positive feed like a FASS system. I feel it would be better and even plan to install on our ISM coach eventually. Other benefits are air free fuel and longer injector life. Cooler ECM, Fuel polishing and better filtration . Hate to see anyone have to go thru these issues
Won't start after changing fuel filters (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=47148.msg478993#msg478993)
And....the very reason I did away with my problem prone lift pump and installed the full FASS system on ours. Unless you keep and eye on your lift pump every time you take it out, you just never know when it can start to leak and suck air. Also made our coach run much smoother, and a decent performance /economy upgrade too.
CAPS systems had many failures due to air leaks on the Lift pumps. CAPS pumps then fail due to lack of lubrication costing in the 4K and up range.
According to his signature this is a 2004. he shouldnt have the CAPS system.
[/quote]
This is the pump that Cummins lists for my coach's engine serial number: 142-075-0003 by D&W - D&W Remanufactured Cummins Fuel Pump CAPS (https://www.finditparts.com/products/16280350/d-and-w-142-075-0003?sctx=eyJzIjoiIDQwNzY0NDMiLCJzb3VyY2UiOiJzZWFyY2hwYWdlIiwicHJvZHVj%0AdF9pZCI6IjE2MjgwMzUwIiwicmVzdWx0X2NvdW50Ijo2NTMxLCJyZXN1bHRf%0AaWR4IjozfQ%3D%3D%0A&ga_list=Search%20Results%20v3)
I used the link to Find-it Parts because they have a description that identifies it as a CAPS pump, but the part number is from Cummins Parts. Maybe they continued using it after the newer system was introduced, or maybe Foretravel still had older engines on hand.
IIRC, these pumps are modular consisting of 5 major parts. Sometimes it's not necessary to replace the entire pump,
yep, thats a CAPS pump. Guess you must have a left over 2002 Engine in a 2004 coach.
If it were my coach, and I was going to have to spend that much on an injection pump, I would also do away with the leak prone Lift pump as part of the work. Even new out of the box lift pumps have a tendency to start leaking due to the fact they still use a Nitrile Diaphram. The modern diesel takes its toll on Nitrile. Once the pumps starts to weep fuel, it is also sucking air and thats what causes the CAPS pump to fail. I preferred to not want to have to check it daily, and maybe end up where you are at. I knew this when I bought the coach and planned for the upgrade soon after purchase.
I personally have had great service out of my FASS Titanium system and did a full write up on it here.
You dont have to install the full FASS system unless you want to, you could just do the pump. But glad I bought the full system. Another company called AIRDOG sells a similar.
My Fass writeup
FASS fuel system install upgrade (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=44734.msg453561#msg453561)
Often, newer design engines (mainly done to meet ever-stiffer emission requirements) are more expensive than the older ones.
I don't know if there was a price jump between CAPS and the HPCR engines, but likely.
That was certainly true as after-treatment systems were needed to meet the new standards. Big $$$ increase.
So, what all manufacturers (OTR truck as well as RV) is buy a huge quantity of the older/less expensive engines.
Remember, it is actual date of engine manufacture, not year of coach that determines what emission standards the vehicle must meet.
So, by reading the fine print in the EPA rules, the manufacturers saved $$$ and it was pretty common for the engine to be older than the vehicle they were installed in.
I want the entire assembly replaced. With labor costing what it does, I would rather spend more on the entire assembly than risk another part of it failing down the road.
BBeane is correct, but agree with your view.
Just be sure and ALSO address the Lift pump issue, or you will be doing it again. These pumps, DONT just up and fail. Its caused by air entering the fuel path at the lift pump. If you start searching this in great detail you will see many, many cases of this failure for this reason. Even Cummins techs nationwide will tell you, CAPS was not a proud moment for Cummins for this very reason. Just about any tech out there will also tell you, to avoid the problem, do away with the lift pump and go with a more reliable low pressure fed fuel delivery system. CAPS injector pump is not the weak link, the lift pump and its failing diaphram is.
If you truly have a good knowledgeable Diesel repair shop, they should be fully aware of this problem and be more than willing to also assist with a pump upgrade by installing a FASS or Airdog system.
I had my ICV on my pump replaced several years ago at Cummins. But my pump failed last year and had to replace the whole pump with a Cummins rebuilt pump. I think the pump was around $4600.
Mark
I am updating this in case anyone else has a similar problem, as they might know better what to check based on our experience. As I posted earlier, the problem was the fuel pump was not building pressure. Cummins did replace the entire fuel pump assembly, which includes the injector control valve. They also replaced the transient suppressor; I asked about that because I had read about issues with it, and they said it is always replaced with the fuel pump. However, once the new fuel pump was installed the engine started and ran but ran very rough. They were getting a code that indicated an ECM issue, so they tried recalibrating the ECM. The engine still ran rough, so they tried a test ECM, which fixed the problem. They then replaced the ECM.
I don't know exactly why the ECM failed along with the fuel pump, but I do have a theory based on what I have read. A failing fuel pump can apparently send voltage spikes back to the ECM; that is what the transient suppressor is supposed to prevent. So I think the transient suppressor was probably bad, and when the fuel pump died it damaged the ECM. If that is the case, it was a perfect storm of events. I hope this doesn't happen to anyone else because it is a very expensive issue. The entire repair was in excess of 14K. And that does not include fixing the damage done by the tow driver who did not properly secure the drive shaft after he disconnected it. That repair includes a new pinion yoke, driveshaft, and u joints.
Terrified to hear about all this. So glad you have it resolved.
Wow, glad you finally got it resolved, and surely a very costly failure......did you have your lift pump thoroughly checked out or replaced as well?
[I removed a couple of off-topic, unhelpful posts. Michelle]
I spoke to the Cummins service advisor about the lift pump. He said he was not aware of lift pump issues causing the fuel pump to fail. He also said they saw no sign that the lift pump was leaking, so it should not be able to suck air. I plan to look into the lift pump more once I get the drive train fully repaired—I still need to get the new driveshaft and install it. It is on order and should come in this week.
Hard to believe a Cummins service advisor would say that as that is a very common failure issue on that fuel system-- sucking air at the lift pump with the engine running.
Brett is 150% spot on with his comment. lift pumps sucking air and causing Injection pump failures, is a well documented Cummins issue that any reputable Cummins shop should know about. You must have been dealing with a young inexperienced service advisor. I talked with over 3 myself back before buying our coach and afterwards, as well as a few older techs since that time, All of them stated the CAPS years is a time Cummins is not proud of, but brings them lots of revenue from time to time. I am glad you got your issue resolved, but in your best interest, you might want to read more on the subject and know that even brand new pumps eventually fail, start to leak, and in turn will suck air. Keep in mind, Air can also come from other places, Like loose fittings, old fuel lines, etc. As your coach is soon to be 20 years old, if not already done so, fuel line replacement is wise. Many of us that have done them have found cracks in fuel lines or loose fittings. If I was just on the receiving end of a very costly CAPS failure, I would only run it to get it home, or to the the next shop that is knowledgeable on the subject, and can do a system upgrade, to include new fuel lines.
Here is the why the pumps fail.
Old and even brand new lift pumps use a BunaN/Nitrile diaphragm at their core. The modern diesel fuel is missing key lubricant qualities that makes it not as compatible with BunaN as it used to be. It eventually causes the rubber to get firm and the gasket to lightly shrink, which in turn allows that gasket to leak. All the tightening in the world will not stop the leak, only make it leak a bit less. Any leak is sucking air. Your lift pump only runs for 30 seconds at the beginning of the start cycle, then the CAPS pump is forced to suck that fuel all the way from the tank. ANY air entering the system is causing the caps pump to work harder, lose lubrication and cooling to the caps system, which ultimately can lead to a very costly failure. Any seasoned reputable Cummins tech would tell you (if asked) that to keep positive pressure to the CAPS pumps is definitely better than the OE design.
I was aware of this issue with the 8.3's of our vintage, and kept it in the back of my mind as I shopped for a coach. But ultimately I did buy one that had it. But at the same time was aware of the upgrade, and said the minute I see any sort of leakage of fuel I was going to do that upgrade. Sure enough after a few short trips of ownership it did so. Any 20+ year old lift pump is apt to do it at any minute. When it did, I installed that upgrade, along with all new fuel lines, as they too can be a cause of air into the system, and hopefully never have to worry about this issue again....we have enough issues to worry about driving 20+ year old coaches..
FYI the basic FASS System is not much more cost than a new Lift pump, but is a bit more complicated to install.
Another reason for using fuel additives.
I agree, which is why I have always used a fuel additive (Diesel Kleen) with every fill up.
I get that air in the system could cause problems, and as I said I plan on looking into the lift pump and fuel lines as a preventative measure for the future. At the same time I am not convinced that it is the reason for our fuel pump failure. I never saw any indication of fuel leaking before the fuel pump failed, and Cummins also checked the system and didn't find any indication of fuel leakage. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like if there is a leak that allows air in there should be fuel leaking out. Also, if any significant amount of air is entering the system, the engine performance should be affected. I would expect it to run rough and/or lose power. Ours ran as smooth as any diesel engine I have ever been around up until thirty seconds before it died. What am I missing?
Getting air into the fuel will not necessary have any fuel leaks. The Fass Fuel System takes the air out
of the fuel and gives the fuel pump positive pressure.
Yup. Leaks on the suction side can suck air in, but not leak fuel out.
OR they can also leak fuel out if below the level of fuel in the fuel tank, but only with the engine off.
I had this situation, not long ago. The rear of the coach was higher than the front. I used a rag and my compressor to pressurize the fuel tank and pumped the primer bulb at the same time.(takes 2 folks)
After about 30 seconds, the primer filled and I started the coach.
Cheers!
I remember a similar problem with a 24 valve Dodge pickup with the new injector pump that replaced the trusty P7100 pump. The new inj pumps depend on diesel fuel forlubrication, a failing lift pump kills them in short order. The older injector pumps were lubricated by engine oil. An Airdog lift pump/filter system fixed it after replacing injector pump, never another problem.
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I had the same issue with my 99 Dodge with a 5.9 cummins and Bosch rotary VP44 injector pump.
Installed a FASS supply pump and a fuel pressure indicator light on the dash to show if fuel supply pressure drops below 10psi.