I have a couple problems at least that are stacking up on me, and I'm looking for some guidance as I attempt to crawl out. I apologize in advance, as this will likely be a wall of text, but I'm just trying to get all this down not just so I remember what has happened, but to make sure I'm not doing anything too dumb.
A couple weeks ago, I posted (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=47262.msg479491) that my HWH wouldn't go into travel mode. I got some great feedback and planned to replace a fuse and see where that got me, but we were on our way out of town for a couple of weeks. I assumed I could pick up where I left off when I returned.
Instead, when we got back I went to the replace the fuse and found that my shore power circuit at the storage seemed to be tripped because there was no read-out on the display of my surge protector (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N9MOY7B?th=1). And the chassis batteries were discharged. And the engine batteries were discharged.
Oddly, the extension cord I had hooked up to my cord reel was still live - but I couldn't get the surge protector to come on. I looked for a reset or signs of a failure, couldn't find anything. I removed the surge protector and hooked up the shore power line. After a couple minutes, the system seemed to try to start up. Some lights in my inverter bay came on, various clicks, and the air compressor tried to fire up - but then the circuit tripped as there must have been a large amp draw from somewhere. I tried this a couple of times with the same result.
(Incidentally, I plugged the surge protector back in after an hour(?) and it works again)
So I assumed that maybe my best bet was to try to jump the coach. The first thing I tried was a jump pack - I got the biggest one O'Reilly had on the shelf, a Super Start 1200 peak amp power pack (https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/super-start/super-start-1200-amp-jump-starter/ss02/51200). Tried to start - wouldn't turn that engine. We aren't just low, we're dead.
So I put on a battery charger that I've had for years. Gave it a couple of hours, but it stopped charging at some point since it's not designed to charge loads this large. So... I picked up a bigger charger (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BLLRM8R) that claimed it was RV compatible (whatever that means). I put it on to charge this morning, and when I went to attempt to start the coach this evening, it still wouldn't turn over. However, the air compressor had come alive and was running. And that leads to the next problem.
The compressor was running, but didn't seem to be generating any pressure, and there was air leaking from this connector (attached image). Here's a video if it helps. Shared album - Steve Jones - Google Photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/2mdUma4ZC9VyR7Hv9) How many failures deep am I now? Sheesh...
So my current plan is to allow the coach to charge over night. I disconnected power from the air compressor - it was running non-stop, not creating pressure, and I don't see any value in potentially burning up a motor and slowing down the charging process.
I don't know how old any of my batteries are, so I think I need to be prepared to replace them. But to do that, I'll need to get it started, raise it up, and block it off so I can pull batteries. But of course, that means I need to get it started and figure out my air issue. :o
So my questions:
1. Am I doing anything really dumb yet?
2. Is getting it started the right first step?
2a. If so, is charging it then using the jump pack (if needed) a good approach?
3. What's up with the air leak?
4. Any speculation as to why my surge protector might have tripped leading to my batteries draining?
I'm still a new owner and I'm prepared to work on things and get my hands dirty figuring out systems and problems, but this series of issues isn't quite what I expected this early.
Thanks in advance to anyone who has some insight.
-Steve
Steve,
Leave the aux air compressor turned off - it's not your first priority.
What kind of outlet are you using for shore power? 15A, 30A, or 50A? Hook the shore power extension cord directly to the portable battery charger.
Hook whatever portable battery charger you are using directly to your chassis (engine start) batteries. Let them charge overnight.
Tomorrow, when the chassis batteries have some charge, try to get your generator started. If it starts, turn on your inverter/charger and then turn on your boost switch. Your inverter/charger will supply a much bigger charging current to both battery banks.
After both battery banks are charged up, you should be able to start your engine.
THEN, you can worry about the air leak. It is probably the dump solenoid valve on the aux compressor air dryer/water separator stuck open. Simple fix.
Shore power is 15A.
Thanks Chuck - that's what I was looking for. Gonna try that generator in the morning.
Depending on what inverter you have, some will not charge a dead battery, but your inverter may not be that kind and when it went to bulk charge it was probably pulling 20-25 ac amps. Get the generator going first, it doesn't take as much power to get it to turn over. It will be able to run the inverter on bulk charge.
Xantrex Freedom SW 3012
What you describe sounds like what I was seeing - the large amp draw tripped the circuit.
If you leave the portable charger hooked up overnight on the 6 amp setting, hopefully in the morning there will be enough juice in the chassis batteries to crank the generator. If necessary, you could use that Super Start jump pack to add a little extra juice. If you try to use the 30A boost or the 100A jump start setting on the portable battery charger, you may trip the 15A circuit breaker on your shore power outlet. The manual for your battery charger says it can pull 19 amps intermittently - I assume when using the booster settings. Good luck!
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91AQnYGUKWL.pdf
Does your generator use the chassis batteries or the house batteries to start the generator?
I
thought house - but I should be able to use the boost switch in the morning if I try to start it and get nothing, right?
I believe your generator uses the house batteries to start. I think you want to charge the house batteries overnight with the boost switch off. In the morning try to start the generator with the boost switch still off.
The fold in the drawing distorts the right-most highlighted vertical line. But it looks like it is indeed started by house batteries.
I'll give it a go with the boost switch in the morning, I don't have it in me to go to the storage facility tonight, crawl into the back of the storage bay, remove the panel, and hook up the charger to the house batteries.
I'll give it a go with the boost solenoid in the morning - or will that even close if house batteries are dead? Looks like it's powered by house batteries.
Sure would be nice if there were convenient charging lugs like there are for the chassis batteries.
Using the boost switch in the morning will be connecting hopefully charged house batteries to likely dead chassis batteries thereby reducing the power available to start the generator.
Sorry about that - it was my erroneous assumption that the newer coaches started the generator off the chassis batteries. I thought I read that somewhere...
I'll go spend some "time out" in the corner. Please ignore everything I said earlier...
Chuck - I already owe you several tall beers. Probably even cold ones.
Bob - I'll try it anyway. Worst case, I have to do the storage bay crawl and wait a few hours.
Update - having left the charger on the chassis batteries all night, I attempted to start it up. The engine starts to turn, but not fully, and not enough to start. So, next I tried to start the generator with boost and my jump pack - still not enough amperage.
So now I'm charging the house batteries - I'll give it a few hours then try the generator. For now, I've hit the battery disconnect to make sure everything is off and we'll charge quicker. I'll probably try again this afternoon.
My house batteries are over 10 yrs old, gel Sonnenschein GF 12 160 V (https://batteryplex.com/product/sonnenschein-batteries-gf-12-160-v/), with Aug 2012 written on the label. Qty 3. So I think I'm due. I'm good with staying with the same setup, gel, but these Sonnenschein batteries seem to be more available in Europe. I'll stop at my local O'Reilly, but what's the best place to source batteries? I assume I'm looking for 3 12V gel at roughly 160 Ah each? Otherwise it's just differences in quality? I'm in the Houston area.
Generator takes very little power to operate. When I first got my coach i started generator on an old week red top optima battery and operated it on that battery till we drove across the states going home. No other house batteries
That battery shows it's 196Ah capacity and is very similar in size to an 8D, which is what is in my 03 U320. The 8d Lifelines I have are 255Ah each. The page you listed shows that battery at $1200. The Lifelines with more capacity run in the mid $800's. If you do replace those batteries, I'd consider an 8D to increase your capacity with the same number of batteries, and these are cheaper.
The Xantrex SW3012 is a good unit, the upgraded model of the SW3000 I have. That does also seem to have a lithium ion charging capability too, so you could go with lithium batteries if extended boondocking is in your future. Lithium offers a weight savings and capacity increase, but are more expensive (although you would not need 3 either). You would need to add a DC to DC charger so your alternator could still charge the house batteries too. Just depends on your needs really.
Progress! Generator is started, inverter is charging.
I'll let it charge for a couple hours, then I'll try starting the engine and let it run for 30 min.
After that, I have to figure out my air issue. I know that I have air coming out of my dump solenoid valve on the aux compressor air dryer/water separator - Chuck mentioned that it's probably just stuck open and is an easy fix.
Steve, do you have the Xantrex display? If so, look for the screen that shows what the charger is doing. If you can wait for it to get to FLOAT mode, that means the batteries are completely charged as far as the charger knows.
The dump solenoid is a normally open solenoid that takes 12V to close it. When 12V is applied to run the compressor, it should also close the solenoid orifice. The orifice has 1/8npt threads in the end of it. For now, you can just put a pipe plug in there to get the compressor to make pressure in the system.
The Xantrex display was in the Absorption mode. I'll check on it here in another hour or two.
If it's not closing, the easy fix is to either replace the solenoid OR rebuild it with one of Tom's plunger kits. You can tap on it and it might close, but that's not a long-term solution.
That said, it could also be the bowl itself - that bowl experiences significant temperature stress when it unloads. They are known for developing stress cracks at the fitting where the solenoid valve attaches, and we've personally seen one that failed catastrophically (2008 Nimbus).
HWH Solenoid Valve Rebuild (https://www.irvblog.com/foretravel%20projects/HWH-Solenoid-Valve-Rebuild/)
HWH Filters and Bowls (https://www.irvblog.com/foretravel%20projects/HWH-Filters/)
BTW, pull the fuse on the aux compressor to prevent continuous running. You'll overheat the compressor and be looking at a more costly repair.
Looks like it's still taking 79 Amps, so it will still take a while absorbing.
For what it is worth--granted my coach is vastly different from yours, but--if you can't get the batteries you want you shouldn't need a "super" battery to start your coach (unless it is quite cold out).
About six years ago I replaced an 8D start battery with two truck batteries with 900CCA because the 8D wet cell battery available up here in Northern Wisconsin only had a one year warranty. My truck batteries have 5 year warranties, and are still going strong. Haven't had a no-start yet.
Good call. I have 3 @ 965 CCA ea right now. They're $500 ea to replace, I'm sure I could get by with much cheaper.
My U320 has 3 x Group 31 start/chassis batteries. I went with the $175 Duracell batteries from Batteries Plus.
Chassis battery's are Optimas and the house side are Lithium.
Update - we're running. Steps to get there:
- charge house batteries enough to get generator started
- turn on inverter / charger and enable boost switch so chassis batteries charge
I still probably need to look at swapping out batteries, but I bought myself a little bit of time.
Thanks for all the help!
Hi Steve,
I would add this for storage. Although you may have already done this. Set your "AC Input" on the inverter to match your 15amp source. The charger will derate to prevent tripping the circuit. Also I pull the inline fuse on the aux compressor. There is no reason that you need it in storage. I too bought mine with batteries on their last leg. I managed to nurse them along for a while until it was in for maintenance and left unattended and unplugged for several days. That was the Coup de grâce for them. 😏
Robert
Thanks Robert - I was able to find that setting on the inverter for derating the input amperage. I fixed an air leak that was causing the aux compressor to run, so I might be good without pulling the fuse. In the meantime, I hit the salesman switch to kill the extra power draw, hopefully I'm in a place now where I can leave it for a 2 or 3 weeks without having to worry.
I'm sharing a circuit with other RVs for my shoreline power, so who knows that they're drawing - they could be tripping the breaker or we could be tripping it with the combined draw. I'm considering getting a place that is enclosed, not just covered.
I seem to remember there were several things that the DC disconnect "salesmen switch" didn't disable. You might want to verify that on your coach. I've noticed an interesting phenomenon on mine. While I was in Dallas during the big freeze a couple of weeks ago. The aux compressor would run about 30 seconds every 10 or 15 minutes. I found a very small leak at one of the lines coming out of the compressor and wrote it off to that. Seriously hoping it wasn't a slide bladder leaking. Now that it's in the 50s-60s again. I don't hear it run more than once or twice a day. Even though I haven't replaced the leaking shark fitting. So you may want to watch it in cold weather. That's why I pull the fuse. Kinda of a belt and suspenders thing for me. 😂🤷🏻♂️
Easy to check what's hot or not after disconnecting the salesman switch. Test each resettable breaker in your electronics bay with a DC volt meter. On mine, just about half of the breakers are still hot when that switch is turned off.