Hello everyone. I am still having a problem with a slow start. Mike and I have checked everything we know to check and cannot seem to run this bug down.
Currently:
• (3) new start batteries. Charged 7 confirmed full.
• Cleaned all connections thoroughly.
• Had starter checked, in perfect shape, no issues.
• Alternator working fine.
• Battery cables are shedding their insulation in a couple places but nothing crazy. We taped them up good for now until I get them replaced.
Here's the interesting thing. It sits in covered storage with a trickle charger all the time. Once a month, I go get it and take it for a stroll just to keep things lubricated and working well. Every time I start it monthly, it starts immediately. However, no matter how much I drive it during that day, it is always slow starting from then on. It's a 270 with plain ol 8.3, nothing fancy.
Can anyone think of something I have missed that I should check?
Thanks
Does it take a long time to start or is it a slow starter motor? Big difference in trouble shooting.
So it starts quickly when cold, but not so quick when hot?
Could be a heat soak problem of some kind...but I can't guess where it would be.
Not the same as a gasoline engine where the fuel can vaporize in the carb and fuel lines.
When hot, does it spin over better with the boost switch turned on?
It starts it is just slow. It acts like a a low battery but again, all my batteries are new, been tested and retested.
Chuck,
Typically, when it is cold it's the same. However, while on the trickle charge and not having been started for a month or so, the first time, it fires right up instantly. If it sits overnight and is cold the next morning, it is still slow. Only when it sits on the trickle charger for a month or so and only the first time will it start right up like it should.
Maybe it is a bad starter.
Did you clean all your ground connections,one on the frame near the hyd pump,one on the engine that those cables go to and one
on one of the starter bolts,and did you check your air filter.
Starter was opened up and checked out perfect. We have a old school alternator / starter guy who has been doing these forever. He looked it over and could not find any issues.
Cleaned every connection. Have not checked the air filter, I would think if it was that plugged up, the engine would not run at all. I will go ahead and check it though, thanks
Have you tried using the boost switch for start? You don't say what type/brand start batteries you have.
Several months ago I was working on a 98 u270. It was slow starting and there was a charge issue too. I found that the insulation on both cables from the batteries to the starter looked like they had gotten hot and the insulation was cracked and falling off in places. I replaced the old 3/0 cables with new 4/0 cables and also the connection posts that are on the frame by the batteries. Charge issues fixed and it now starts quickly like an 8.3 should.
Right . Fair chance that the cables are compromised. Try new.
Also. Possible slight injector leak that drips fuel , forcing a high starter load to rotate the wet engine . ??
I have exactly the same situation and I am planning to replace the cables soon. I am hoping that fixes it as we cannot come up with any other reason for this. I have also installed 2 new cable standoffs to the frame at the batteries.
So you replaced ALL the battery cables with 4/0 ? Did you source them locally or did you order in bulk online?
Woody,
Yes, we tried the boost switch with no change. Seems like it just isn't getting enough juice to the starter. I think the batteries are all group 34's. I replaced them all back on Oct.
Think I would get the cables now,you need them soon enough,that may be the problem.
I would suspect that the starter is wonky. And no offense to your starter shop guy. But if the starter spins fast and the engine fires up quickly when cold but spins slowly when warm. That would lead me to think that as things expand within the starter. It will bring out issues with increased resistance or even a loss of connection in some of the windings in the armature.
I had the slow spinning issue. put in new starter and BAM. It spins like a Dremel tool. Well, maybe not that fast.
Starters are pretty cheap. A standard Delco for my coach was $425.
I've got a sister coach to yours. I've done everything you have done and mine turns slow when warm. I throw the boost switch and it spins faster. Been that way for seven years and 60,000 miles.
We also through a lot of things to fix a slow crank including rebuilding starter. Only a new Leese Neville starter fixed it forever on. We did not change to a different gear starter and did not use a generic rebuild starter. Also measured battery voltage during a cranking episode. With no change with boost, likely it is starter.
Thanks Jerry, I am going to try cables first since they are bad, If that doesn't work, I will be taking another look at the start for sure
I am suspecting my boost solenoid is also shot but once I get new cables, I will be looking closer at that solenoid as well. Thanks
Thanks Barry. I am going to cables first and see what happens. If not change, I will probably take a look at the starter again. I sure hope it not the starter, that thing was a bear to get back in with mine and Mike's bad backs.
Bad cables are easy to diagnose. Check voltage drop between battery end and starter when someone activates the starter.
If more than 1 volt, yup, replace and upsize if you can.
Check ground/negative side as well.
Got 4/0 cable and terminals and made all new from the starter to the batteries. I also replaced the boost solenoid and the isolator. When trying to remove the nuts holding the cable terminal to a component most of the time it twisted off. Good luck with your problem.
I think I will do the same. Thanks again Ron
We used a strap around heavy starter and then over something above starter allowing us to lift the heavy starter by pulling on strap from outside coach.
Good idea. I will remember that.
Most important thing, particularly considering both your time and $$$ is to VERIFY the problem and solve it rather than approach it by just replacing parts.
If you do decide to pull the starter you'll probably need a 5/8 or 3/4 twelve point socket and a foot square piece of 1/2 inch plywood. You go underneath put the wood on your chest and slide the starter out toward you then onto the wood, they only weigh 20/25 pounds. So if you don't drop it on your head or something else you value it'll go back just as easily.
IMHO
I had a starting problem on my 99 U295. I added two 4/0 cables, directly from batteries, one to the starter and other to frame and left everything else as is. I also added another battery. It solved my problem. I did this about 5 years ago and never had a problem since. Might be worth a try before removing starter .
Just my two cents
Ron
Ron,
So, if i understand correctly. When you say you "added" two 4/0 cables, did you leave the existing cables in place and just added the new cables or you replaced those two cables?
Thanks everyone for your input, much appreciated as always.
I know I will probably have to get my old cables off for accuracy but, for those of you who have replaced yours, do you recall the total lengths for each cable? I am planning to order these online. I can guestimate the lengths but I rather not buy cable I won't use. At the moment, I am not able to get under the coach to run down the dimensional lengths.
Thanks
I added the extra two cables. I drilled and tapped a new hole for the ground. This gave a direct flow from batteries to starter and ground. I didn't like the looks of the terminals by the batteries. they were the originals. Be sure and secure cables all the way so they won't rub on anything.
Ron
Sounds like a plan. thanks Ron. I have discovered in cleaning my cables, the insulated standoffs on the frame @ the batteries, the stud is really too short. Drilling a hole in the frame for the negative side, i can do, but what did you do for the pos. side? I saw online where I can use a triple standoff and that is what I am considering at the moment. Ideas?
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmxwtwwW/terminal-bus-bar-4-point-positive.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XTHqqG5/61-BJ2-F7-Beg-L-SL1500.jpg)
If you want to add a new tool to your kit (both literally and figuratively) then you could learn how to make your own HD cables. At the urging of other Forum members I picked up this skill. It's not hard, but it does require spending some coin for tools. I know I risk derailing this thread by mentioning this subject, but hopefully others will resist the impulse to start
another raging debate over "which crimping tool is best". You can search for old threads on this subject to read the pros and cons. Just be aware that you
can make your own cables if you wish.
Battery Cable Crimper (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=40720.0)
Making Your Own Battery Cables - Marine How To (https://marinehowto.com/making-your-own-battery-cables/)
One way I use to find bad connections is after starting the engine or trying to start the engine
is to go back to the battery right away and see if I can fined any warm connections.
+1 on the purchase of battery cable crimper. I purchased a premium one and you'd have to pry it out of my cold dead fingers. Handy for solar also. Save so much money. Sorry to derail.
I agree completely Chuck. I had looked at them once before but seemed a bit pricey. I will take another look as I prefer to do it myself anyway.
I know there are many qualified people who work on these things for a living but having been a auto mechanic my whole life, I am just biased I guess and prefer to all the work I can myself. Strangely enough, out of all my tools, a cable crimper is some I never had but it looks like it may be time to get one. Thanks for mentioning that,
looking into my battery compartment, look at the lower left cable. It is cracking and deteriorating like this from one end to the other. Looks like it got super hot at some point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCxJg9pL/unnamed-2.jpg)
Definitely need to replace that one.
yes and they all look that way. going to be a fun project. I have to get it done before it gets to be 110 in the shade here in Texas.
That's a priority job for sure!
I removed all of the old cables and installed all new. I didn't trust the old cables to not short out. I have a crimping tool that I have had for years. I made all of the cables. If you do your own cables, much cheaper. If you do them, be sure to get a cutter for cutting the cable so that it is nice and smooth so that it will slide into the terminal. I used red for positive and black for negative. Foretravel had used all black cables with red heat shrink on the positive.
Hey Chuck
Here in Longview, we are already having 70 degree and up humid days. It is ridiculous. We are taking the coach out for the first time for a test run to a local lake 25-30 miles up the road on 3/16-17. If that all works out ok, I will start on the cables the following weekend if I can borrow Mike's pit, LOL
Zach, be sure that if you still have the OE serrated anti-rotation lugs, they must be changed out, or at least filed down if they are not paired to the same type of serrated connector. It looks like that's what you have on the end of that old cable connected to the new standoff lugs. I had massive overheating when I connected these to flat brass ends of a shunt...loss of surface contact and high resistance.
Yes, those are what I have. Wen I get new cables, I am planning to change all the lugs out to the smooth surface ones. Thanks for mentioning that, I never thought of the overheating issue but it makes perfect sense. 👍
The weekend of the 23rd should be a good time to start.
Mike
Sounds good sir, I will see you then.