Our House batteries and inverter/charger have finally reached their end of life phase. I had purchased some old MK gel batteries from California Flash Bob years ago and one has failed. Guess it's time to start some research on what to do. Probably will go towards the Victron multi charger management system. I do like the idea of the Bluetooth but also like an actual panel to view. The MK jell batteries have been good and would consider them. About $800 each but will stay open to other options. AGM and lithium. Really dont want to get involve with lead acid because of the required maintenance and corrosion issues. I dont have plans for solar but would require having a system that would expand/accept solar. Boondocking with what we currently had worked great for us and till now was very reasonable. Could probably replace with similar for 5K (guessing) but also like the idea of the Lithium but price can go up to 10k (Yikes). Seems to me a shame to spend a bunch of money on old technology but it is proven. No plans to go to an electric fridge. I would also purchase a half life system and push this issue down the road. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Links on deals would be real helpful also
Been a while since I looked at house batteries. Back in the day, if you wanted AGM batteries, the standard go-to Forum recommendation was the O'Reilly AGM8D. Without doing a search, I can't tell if they are still competitively priced, but at least worth a look (in the AGM category). Many other options available these days, so pays to shop around and consider all battery types.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/fleet-heavy-duty/super-start-fleet-heavy-duty-battery-group-size-8d/ssbl/agm8d?q=AGM8D&pos=0
About three years ago I violated the "appropriate rules" and replaced our two 8D AGM batteries with two Battle Born LiFePO4 8D 270 amp-hr batteries without changing any other components (other than adjusting the charging settings on our Magnum inverter). Our modest solar system (720 watts) and our Leece-Neville alternator (160 Amp) have performed well and I am satisfied with the overall results. If we did a significant amount of dry-camping more capacity would definitely be required but for our usage we have had no complaints.
Chuck I think if I was to go the AGM i would upgrade to the MK Solar 8ds. Think I could get for $700ish. David the Battle Borns would be great but im just not wanting to spend that much. Averaged out over the next 12 years would bring the cost down, but doesn't help the sticker shock.
If I were buying now I would probably go with 460 Amp-hr Epoch LiFePO4. Will Prowse has given them excellent reviews. For me the long-term benefits outweigh the high initial expense.
Check out Li Time batteries on Amazon.....
Online, O'reilly Auto shows $526 8D AGM battery post model. Usually one can find ways to get lower prices when shopping in stores. Wonder if this store or other Auto stores have similar prices for 8D GEL batteries.
Several of us on the forum are using AmperTime (now LiTime ) batteries of 200, 300 or 400 amph rating packaged in 8D form factors. Some models even have cold temperature protection, not mine from 2 years ago. Will Prowse has torn down and bench marked many different LiTime batteries of various capacities and they always come up good. They are cheaper than equivalent useable capacity AGM batteries, will charge much faster and hold voltage under load better while weighing less than half.
At Quartzsite I saw a server rack battery installation of two 12 volt, 400 amph batteries that were also recommended by Prowse. Price per watt was fantastic, super easy to cable and loaded with features. They were installed in a U270 on a piece of plywood bolted to a server rack, original battery rack removed. He had room for two more batteries and was going for 1600 amp hours for a cost of $4,000.
I did install a 30 amp Victron B2B charger to protect my 160 amp alternator from overheating trying to charge my two 300 amph batteries. My Xantrex Freedom458 (2010 vintage) inverter/ charger is set to Gel2 which provides a good charge profile for my batteries. I emailed LiTime for some help setting the advanced charge parameters for my solar charger and they answered all my questions so my solar charger is completely optimized for the batteries per manufacturer.
In my opinion your cost for lithium is very high. With a few hours of YouTube university with Will Prowse and your skill set you can do this easily for much less. Then if you upgrade to a residential fridge you will be capable of running it and lithium loves solar.
Looking at Litime 12V 300Ah and the Victron multi plus II 2X.
In my hunt for the batteries for my project, I approached Epoch several times for expanded information and was met with "not so good" experience. While their product looks technically good, there back office and customer service left much to be desired. It was a "strsngez" experience and thus crossed them off my list.
As noted in my recent thread, LiTime won hands down with service, responsiveness, follow-up and delivery on commitments. I personally queried every contender on my short list with a list of questions ranging from deep technical to mundane warranty handling. While some others were good, LiTime was at the top of the list and Epoch failed miserably after multiple attempts.
The name that keeps coming up is the Blue BB stuff. Fact is they are over rated, over priced and bought market recognition by "giving" batteries to virtually any YT influencer who would take them. Rumor has it their Chinese cell provider gave them $1m to spend "seeding" the market.
JMHO....YMMV
You won't be sorry.. FYI..on the Victron, the factory A.C. Coach wiring is not conducive to the MP II 120 X 2. FT's existing wiring to and from the inverter/charger is problematic and there is no reasonable solution that will not entail major use of expletives in the process.
Scott, I replaced our Lifeline AGM batteries a little over 7 years ago and the ones I took out were 10 years old. We pretty much go pole to pole except for a few occasions. I know they are more expensive than other AGM brands but if your not ready to switch to lithium that's an option.
The MP II 120x2 is fantastic. But I just removed the factory inverter and put the MP in between the transfer switch and the main breaker box. I located mine under the bed next to the breaker panel and moved the 12v cables from the original inverter to the new one. It now runs everything without issue. I have the bluetooth adapter for the Victron too and it allows me to monitor the status from my phone.
So in reading about the Victron MP II 2X it is an amazing piece of equipment and would be a shame to not use all its features. Think I'll pull the coach out into the daylight and take a longer look at it. :facepalm:
I'm curious about this since the Victron is the path I'll likely go if/when my Xantrex dies. Can you explain what you ran into?
This was the unit I had earmarked. It seems like there are at least two with similar descriptions from Victron: Victron MultiPlus-II 3000 watts, 12 Volts DC inverter, 120 Amp Battery... (https://www.solar-electric.com/victron-multiplus-ii-inverter-charger-12-3000-120-50-2x120v-ul458.html)
The single pole inlet outlet should be easy replacement for the SW3012. The double pole inlet outlet would require pulling a new power cable and Romex to use the features built in it.
When I needed to replace my house battery's I went with AGM battery's.
I chose Lifeline L -16 batteries.
6v- 400ah. each. I installed 10 batteries.
If you have the height you could probably fit a few of these in place of 8D battery's.
Amazon.com: Victron Energy MultiPlus-II 2X 120V, 3000VA 12-Volt Pure Sine... (https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Energy-MultiPlus-II-120-50-2x120V/dp/B0945M9NG4/ref=rvi_d_sccl_1/145-6280075-7803951?pd_rd_w=Tth1q&content-id=amzn1.sym.f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_p=f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_r=H3GWPN52FKESTX0QS9E2&pd_rd_wg=wIkwR&pd_rd_r=c7fa9b5e-1122-4528-8f40-27e9aaad1bef&pd_rd_i=B0945M9NG4&th=1)
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-II-3kVA-2x120V-EN-.pdf
Because the MP II 2X can manage both legs in regards to interruption, low/hi voltage low/hi freq. it needs to be inline from the transfer switch to the main panel. Would require running to and back from it with guessing 6-3 plus a ground. Once I measure lengths and load requirements will be able to pin it down exactly and battery cables. I think you could just use as the prosine is installed but you loose so many neat features.
Wonder were my surge voltage protection should go before or after being it will fix low ac voltage?
I put the surge protector between the transfer switch and the victron to protect it. The victron won't over or under voltage the system. I was able to reroute the original battery cables from the old inverter to the new inverter, but mine might be in a different location than yours.
Please provide details. It's difficult to understand your objections to Epoch from your vague description.
I bought (3) 8D AGM Lifelines directly from Lifeline in person in 2016. I just happened to be driving past their facility on my way home from a job site and figured I would stop in and chat about batteries, this was right after buying my coach. I talked with the owner and he took 30 mins of the end of his day to show me their warehouse and talk batteries and inverter/charger settings. I walked out of there with three new batteries, and I haven't touched them since I installed them. I've had zero issues with them. I have 4 roof top solar panels that keep them topped off during the day while dry camping (I have a 120v fridge). I run my generator for 30-40 mins to cook breakfast and dinner daily and that is all that is needed along with the solar during the day. The batteries will last all night in 40 degree outside temps running the Aqua hot for coach heating. I do not use AC or roof air units while dry camping. I don't see any reason why I won't get 10 years use out of them, seeing as I am approaching 8 years now without a hiccup.
I also had an excellent experience dealing with Lfelines over the phone. My Lifelines worked flawlessly for a little over 12 years. I would highly endorse them if you are going with AGM type batteries. However, after my Lifelines, I have switched to LiFePO4 type house batteries.
Richard
Lots of li iron hospital take outs , on eBay . Great value imho .
Well I purchased the Victron multi plus LL 2X. Its too tall to install were my prosine was. It is acceptable to mount horizontally but not my first choice. Also mounted horizontally puts the cooling inlet and exhaust at the same level in the bay. No thermal cooling and you loose on cooling capacity unless you install a duct to pick up the cooler air near the floor. Would put a couple box fans in the exhaust but no room. Only have 19" from the door hinges to the aqua hot access door. Need 23". Will offset from bulkhead to accommodate AH door, but this interferes with the Joey slide even more. Pulled 6-4 cable from bed to inverter and back. Installed through floor using conduit and will seal inside and out before finish. At this point im second guessing what in the world am I trying to do. Really like the voltage and power management but had lived without it well. Anyway being extremely exhausted I took some more time looking at the inverter. The AC connectors are push in connectors? This is for a 50 amp legs L1, L2. This is not what Im used to. Again 50 amps? This is rubbish IMO. Also the inverter access for the power conductors are real small like they were sized for #10 and in same installation one could be using 4-4 wire. This is not a fun project with continuous issues. 20-20 hindsite I should of not got fancy with the inverter. And just replace with the single phase inverter. Im too far along to go back, but im considering it. Also got the 12v 300AH LiTimes
Scott I also got the multiplus, did wind up mounting where the old inverter was have not noticed a a lot of issues with heat, top can get warm to the touch but not bad,if was to do it again think I would mount on an angle for a little convection, I ran the 6/4 wire into a junction box then ran SO wire to the inverter, I think I had read that Victron does not recommend solid wire in the connection
Multi plus II ? Or II X2 the X2 is a different beast altogether for the installation.
i
It's the Multi-Plus 2 12v 3000 watt 2x 120 has a fair amount of room
Wire I'm using
Must have been a real joy to run
Well a couple of beers and a good night sleep seemed to help my sniffling attitude. Made up the mount brackets to give room for the aqua hot door. This will also add additional ventilation. The main lower mount is in a rib and the top mount on the right side picks up a rib in the center hole and i added riv nuts to the two locations. I had installed a length of 2" 90 deg aluminum angle to hep support during installation. Put a couple of 1/2 inch block to lift and will remove once mounted to accommodate ventilation. No possible way to use 4-4 wire. If you must have 4-4 wire this unit will not work. Also noticed that the primary positive post cant have a 300 amp connector installed. To close to another connector. With my fine wire 6-3 it is a pain to install wires . Ended up reading directions and see note that a release 2.5 mm tool must be used during installation. No other explanation. I ended up doubling the pig tail length to accommodate installation and bunching it up after to attach strain relief. Power IN strain clamp too small. Power out is 50% bigger? Will power up tomorrow hopefully Upper mount just pathetic and does very little interlocking. Would be fine for vertical mount but lacking for horizontal. Will leave one of the blocks in I guess
I pulled the main cover off and those holes with the rubber gromets in the corners go straight through. I used those for mounting.
They recommend ferrules on the stranded wires that go into the input and output. Makes insertion very easy. You don't need to release the tab to insert(with a ferrule), only on removal. A small flat blade screwdriver works well for removing the wires.
Once they are released they accept the wire easily. They should have made the designing engineer install one in a 30 inch tall box. They would have made some changes.
Oh what fun. Inverter is installed. Cables have been run. Still need to secure cables in under storage compartment. Powered up Battery monitor system and fired up the inverter.
First thing I realized was inverter must be on to pass thru AC power. It also shuts down AC power by the accessory control panel I purchased. I think I actually like that. Hooked up Victron interface module that also is an accessory and was pleased to find it relatively easy to program with the help of a utube video for it. Set the voltage set points for everything and let it go to work. Seems to be acceptably quiet even with Hi charge demands. Charger nicely smoothly started at 115 amps and progressed down to zero at end of charge. Very nice. So the end I think has Justified the system. Still have a lot to put back together, like the entire kitchen and bathroom wall on the passenger side. Also had both vents off the roof and found that the air vent for the microwave was misaligned by an inch at the factory. It's long enough to resolve and properly install. I really like the amperage adjustment in the inside panel. You can dial in anything between 50 to .1 amp supply. Really a nice feature IMO. So if your mooch docking at a freinds house with a long cheap cord you can set it to the desired amperage maximum while watching the voltage drop. Also hooking up to a 30 amp is without a thought now and if the power drops the inverter will automatically assist during a ac starting.
Been thinking of the DC/DC charger to prevent overloading the alternator. Think I want to see how it works once.
The Balmar Voltage Regulator can be set for Lithium Batteries.
So to follow up I did install the 40 amp DC to DC charger to protect the coach alternator. I had checked every thing and thought it was working correct. Couple days before our departure date I double, triple checked that it was working correct. On ground power 220 volt working correct. On battery working correct. On generator I came across an issue. It was creating the L2 output by consuming L1 power. It was not passing power from the generator L2 to output of Inverter L2. Rechecked everything and put a service call into Victron. At this point I was wondering if I had programed the inverter wrong? Double checked programming and saw nothing about inverter input, although the manual shows the different internal switching for different configurations. Next day still no call back and we are getting close top a hard departure time. Being that the inverter will not manage the L2 leg I decided to do a work around by disconnecting the L2 output from the inverter and jumper int L2 from my surge protector back to the L2 in the circuit breaker panel. I would now manage L1 and saw no load for L2 because it was disconnected and worked okay. BUT I now was only using half of what I wanted and lost all the reasons to purchase and install this thing. Well we get to North Carolina and plug the coach into a 20 110=v circuit that we never had issues with before and it trips the GFI as soon as the load control is set above one amp. :headwall: So as a workarounds to that we went to a non GFI and it worked normally. In looking in the logic it grounds the neutral during DC battery inverter use. This explains the GFI issue. I personally really like what a GFI provides. So a couple days go by running the one AC on the L1 leg without issue. I noticed a HI battery warning and a SOC was down to 65% coach was running off inverter and battery. 20 amp breaker had tripped with Victron set to 18amps. Cord and connections all room tempiture at this time. Reset and all was good but noticed as you increased the permissible power load rate to about 18 amps AC that suddenly without adding any addional DC loads thre discharge would jump up to 63 amps DC. Shut the inverter off and load would disappear. SOC 100%. No clue what is going on now. So Ive been running with the inverter off and the battery charger on to manage the batteries. I will be removing when we get home. Oh and about the service tech call back. They did inquire if I was happy with ther prompt call back and if our issues were resolve. shame they Never called!!!I will say that the Victron smart shunt is at the other end of the spectrum. It works perfect and is a pleasure to use. I highly reccomend it. So far not at all for the inverter.
Glad you got some use out of the mk gels.
So... it's been 2 months since this post and we were reading the saga because we're getting ready to order something replace our old Prosine. Any updates on this?
We've pretty much ruled out the 120x2 version, so it would be MultiPlus original or MultiPlus II 3000/120/50 installed essentially in place of the Prosine.
Why not the 120x2 version?
We really don't need 2 leg output (we don't boondock) and our installation would also be what Scott had to do if we did 120x2.
A little concerned with some of his last reported issues with the inverter itself, which is why I'm hoping for an update/recommendation.
No issues with our original Multiplus. And this inexpensive, simple switch accomplishes the Assist function on any of our 50 amp loads when hooked to 10-15 or 30 amp service using lithium for house batteries. Does require Soft Start for AC operation. EZ monitoring on Cerbo GX.
https://youtu.be/gbKBoIvXNPA
Ah,
I've had no issues with mine. I've run it on 50a, 30a, 15a supplies just fine. I've not had any issues with the generator either.
Well It was a lot of retro work to install the double leg inverter. I have been extremely dissatisfied with it and its operation. I'm confident I'll be able to sort it out but actually put it on the back burner. I think it will end up going back to Victron and I'm confident they will take care of my issues. It is not internally switching from different powers sources and in there schematics they show an internal relay in the neutral circuit and I don't think it is switching causing my GFI issues. Still not being able to kneel happily makes working on it no fun. So disconnecting the L2 leg ( the reason I wanted it) more less resolves most of my issues. 20/20 hindsight its a hard pass for me. I so wanted to be able to mooch dock at a couple of our family destinations and currently it will not participate on a 15amp GFI outlet so it's junk to me. Hopefully I'll be more motivated next year. Non issue most of the way we use the coach boondocking.
I'm curious.
I installed my Victron 3000 multi 12v several years ago. All was fine until I had to move the coach to my street to allow construction on the house. I thought no big deal,I will use my 50 amp to 120v power cord to keep all the batteries charged for the few days I'm parked on the street. I used this cord numerous times when I still had the original Freedom inverter installed and never a problem.
I plugged the 120v cord in and immediately blew a breaker in the house. I then tried another outlet/circuit in the house and the same problem. I eventually gave up on the idea of using the 120v power cord.
I had a Mobile RV tech come and check my set-up to see if I did something wrong, he found no problems with my install. I put this issue on the "way back burner" to someday address.
Scott, does this sound like the same issue you have with your Victron, won't work with 120v power source cord plugged into the 50amp outlet with an adapter?
I feel for your knee issue!
I have my Victron isolator installed but was unable to finish the install before I had my knee done. Now I can't get on my knee to finish exchanging the wires and other electronics to the isolator and new solenoids and breakers mounted with the isolator.
No luck in finding a mobile tech on the far NW side of Chicago to try and finish the job before Winter.
I wonder if the Victron charges the batteries too high a current for 120 volt circuit.
Obviously the posters here set their Victrons charging profile to not exceed the amount of power coming in?
My magnum system works fine on 50 to 15 amp power cord downsizing. I can't Imagine a Victron not being able be set to reduced input power. I have used that function many times on my coach .
Interested in the details. DSD is probably the most technically inclined owner I have ever met.
The original Multiplus can be set to any input amperage. It's easy with the Cerbo GX interface but not sure how to do it directly on the inverter. You can also select charge only, invert only or both. We routinely use this feature with the 120v adapter when driveway camping. With lithium and the switch discussed in the YouTube video posted we can use the Multiplus and lithium to run any electrical device, including AC with Soft Start. Obviously heavy load run times are limited by battery not input.
SORRY FOR POSTING WRONG YOUTUBE VIDEO.
In my post, above, I spoke about a simple way to achieve access to all 50 amp devices on the couch using the original Victron Multiplus inverter. Unfortunately, the video I first posted used the smart face selector, which was produced by a.m. Solar. That device and a.m. Solar no longer exist. And, although we had one on order when we did our original lithium install, hey a.m. Solar was unable to deliver.
The solution we found, however, was a simple manual switch but I inadvertently selected the wrong YouTube video to illustrate its installation. I've now deleted the incorrect YouTube video and inserted the one I originally intended. If you're reviewing this thread for the first time, you won't notice my error. But, for those who had originally looked at it, please go back and review the correct one I've now posted.
We long ago removed the bath GFCI outlet and replaced with a regular non-GFCI outlet. Too many problems made the change practical. We are aware of how GFCI outlets work, but RVs are a different animal and the GFCI downleg fed other outlets, that may have contributed to issues.
Upthread, dsd's issue is that prior to the Victron, he could plug into a household GFCI outlet with no issues, but with the Victron, the house's GCFI he's plugged into trips. This is a residential outlet he's plugging into, not the GFCI outlet in the coach that's the problem.
@dsd How did you end up running that wire? Did you try and run it in the floor cable run that goes from the foot of the bed to the closet space, or did you run it out of the back of the utility/tank bay / under the coach and up into the engine compartment?
Also has anyone relocated the mains/generator transfer switch from the foot of the bed (for those coaches that have it there) to another location? I was thinking that if moved it would open up space in the floor cable run to allow room for those new 6/4 cables to/from the inverter as the existing 6/3 lines would no longer be in that space.
Here's a few thoughts for you. I don't have a Victron, I still have the Xantrex Freedom SW3000 unit. While boondocking, I wanted to be able to run off a 2000w inverter generator, mainly to bring the batteries back up without having to run the PowerTech. I have a 50a to 110v adapter as well. I did need to add a binding plug that binds the neutral and common to get it to work. I also set the power share on the Xantrex to 10a as when the unit would first come on, it will surge 3-5 amps more than this setting. At 15a, it would pop the overload on the generator, so 10a setting it was. The next issue was that when the charger started charging, it was set for maximum output (150a DC). I had to reduce the charger output % to 50% to keep it from trying to pull too much from the generator. I assume the Victron also has a charger max charge % setting too. You may need to reduce this to get it to work off 110v.
So I dropped out the passenger side of the bed area and headed forward with all the other cables into the downstairs compartment. I really like better separation of AC lines and fuel/oil lines but couldn't see a way to do it. Once back inside the lower compartment separated and secured to the ceiling inside. Also ran return power with it in 6-4 wire. It was a pain and then to have an internal fault really was a disappointment. It worked fine on external 240 volt ground power. I thought it was working normal on the twin legs of 115 volts of the generator but it was actually creating the L2 leg from the L1 leg causing it to overload. This was with removing it from powering up the L2 leg. L2 is powered direct from the transfer switch bypassing the Victron. Then all the GFI issues and the single most desirable feature being able to reduce the load below the available duplex, was a difficult balancing act. 13 amp setting wouldn't work. 14 amp setting would work. 15 amp setting would trip the non GFI I ended up using. In wanting simple I now have a PITA. Great Idea in principle but will need more T/S. My goal is to reconnect the L2 leg threw the Victron.
Yes it must be set to the power available. This was the reason we got it. 50 amps set to 50, 30 amp set to 30 15 set to 15. Generator set to 50. I should be able to be on a 30 amp circuit and run both ACs being supplemented by the Victron for starts and any required additional power. It will get resolved
Also on 15 amp circuit you are able to reduce to maintain proper voltage.
I checked mine today and my multiplus gets both legs from the generator and powers both legs. Attached picture is from it running on the generator.
So I've been digging some into the 2x120 and came across this little tidbit:
MultiPlus II 2x120v with Generator - VictronEnergy (https://communityarchive.victronenergy.com/questions/220034/multiplus-ii-2x120v-with-generator.html)
"Your Onan 5500 is only single phase output. Even when the generator is wired as "split phase" output, the phases are not 180 degrees out. The mp2 2x120 will see this as a single phase 120v input and will only pass thru L1 and the L1 and L2 outputs will be tied together. Even though you may have both L1 and L2 outputs connected from the generator, only L1 is being used. Basically your generator is cut in half in this configuration."Granted this is a different generator, BUT I believe the PowerTech 10kW is essentially a single-phase output, split into L1 and L2, but the hots are in phase, not 180 degrees out (if as OEM by Foretravel). This might be what's causing the problem - the Victron 2x120 sees L1 and L2 in phase, thinks you only have 1 true leg of power, and drops the L2 power input.
Further good discussion on the same subject here:
Multiplus II 2x120 generator compatibility. - VictronEnergy (https://communityarchive.victronenergy.com/questions/110548/multiplus-ii-2x120-generator-compatibility.html)
I'm going to PM Justin Cook at Bay Marine to see if he can add anything to this discussion.
Is your generator still wired as 2 legs of the same phase or has it been converted to 240V output?
Hi all,
@Michelle is dead-on here: The MultiPlus-II 2x120 expects 2 legs of split-phase 120/240 input. If L2 input is not 180-degrees out-of-phase with L1 input, the MultiPlus will not pass-through the L2 input and will instead use L1 input only, and short L1 and L2 output together so that both sides of the panel are still powered with single-phase 120v.
Some generators will provide split-phase 120/240, while others -we don't work with generators, but I've heard this of many Onans and other generators- provide 2 independent circuits of in-phase 120, in which case the MultiPlus-II 2x120 will do what's being described.
This behavior is also covered in the user manuals, datasheets, product writeups (in most cases, though it depends on where you're looking I suppose), and shown in the power flow diagram printed right on the front of the unit as well!
Thanks for the information Justin. Nice to see an actual expert in the field sharing the hows and whys. That said, looking at Victrons' info is somewhat confusing. I have a Xantrex Freedom SW3000 now, and would like to eventually replace it with a Victron unit. I've labored over the descriptions, trying to determine which option offers as much capability and functionality as possible, without have to reinvent the wheel like DSD did (running new Romex, etc). I want a replacement solution. I have kind of come to the conclusion that will be the original Multiplus, not a Multiplus II.
I think RV with Tito covers this in his video (do we have to much power), about 12 min into the video
Agreed (on both counts). We've been looking at the Victron options for a couple of weeks now, and hadn't come across that explicit statement/info on how the 2x120 would handle generator input. I was digging into it more because the original owner of our coach had PowerTech rewire the genset to 240V operation, and I was trying to figure out if the 2x120 would interpret that as 50 amp shore power and then how it might do hybrid mode on that. That's when I uncovered the single-phase discussions I linked above. I hadn't previously seen anything that indicated the 2x120 might not be a good option for a 50 amp coach with a generator wired like most of the Foretravels represented here.
Keith, from my reading the main differences between the original Multiplus and Multiplus 2 3000 120 models (not the 2x120 version of the MP2) is form factor (allegedly for lower cost shipping) and "reduced production cost design" for the MP2. The form factor difference is significant - I made cardboard cutouts of 2 models (as well as the MPPT, Lynx, and Cerbo GX) marked with cable attachment locations to help us evaluate the space requirements for both.
Form factor is one of the things that Scott said was an issue with the MP2. The original Multiplus looks much more "square" like the Xantrex I have now. I've already got a Cerbo GX and MPPT installed.
Yes, the original is probably close to the Xantrex 3000 you have. It's about 2" thicker than the OEM Prosine 2.5 (insert T-Rex arms here) our coach has. The MP2 is similar in thickness to the 2500, but is a couple of inches longer.
For what it's worth, the MultiPlus-II is 5-1/2" deep, 11" wide, but effectively 23" tall, while the original MultiPlus is 8-3/4" deep, 10-1/4" wide, and only 14-1/2" tall (all a bit rough, but close enough). They occupy very similar total cubic space just differently laid-out, and the actual day to day performance of the MultiPlus-II 1x120 and the original MultiPlus is effectively identical, so in a lot of cases it's just a matter of what will work best for your particular space.
Personally I generally prefer the MultiPlus-II, as it has more flexibility in mounting since it only has one large toroidal transformer mounted to the rear of the case which allows you to mount it upright, on its back, or on its side (ie, horizontally on a vertical surface like a wall) while the old MultiPlus has two large toroidal transformers -one on each side of the case- so mounting is limited to either upright or on its back. I also find the AC-In and AC-Out connector blocks better on the MultiPlus-II; they're a pain to deal with the first time around, but they hold up to vibration and heat cycling over time better than the original MultiPlus connections without being regularly checked on, which is beneficial because -though of course anyone in a mobile environment should be regularly checking their connections- we all know that sort of thing is easy to forget. And, finally, the MultiPlus-II connection points for initial install are, to some, less daunting since you only need to pull off a little black panel at the bottom to access them, whereas on the original MultiPlus you're pulling off the front faceplate which, while very easy, does expose the entire front Control PCBA and first level of power control components to view, which if you're not comfortable with electronics innards, can be scary.
...but on the other hand, the original MultiPlus is what I cut my teeth on, years ago, so it still holds a bit of a special place in my heart!
Scott I have installed a Victron Multiplus II 2x 120 in my coach. Along with solar, cerbo gx etc, etc. finished installing in May, then we left in June for 3 months. We boondocked for 2 months in Colorado. We didn't have any issues with the system. After reading this thread, I started wondering about whether I would have problems plugging into our 20 amp gfci plug. So today I parked near the garage and plugged into the gfci. I have set the input to 17 amps. I turned on both air conditioners and have a residential fridge running. I have been running this for about 2 hours with no problems. I do have about 1000 watts of solar coming in. I think you have a problem with your Multiplus, or possibly it is wired different than mine. I hesitate to suggest that because I know how capable you are. Also you are correct about the one leg being recognized from your generator. I was told if it causes me any problems I could add a transformer. I paid for a wiring diagram and had to figure out how to integrate that with the Foretravel wiring. Mike Rash helped me figure it out, and was a great help to me. I have been very happy with my setup,and I am starting to forget how many hours, and frustration I have in it. Tom
Victron wiring diagram or Foretravel wiring diagram? Thinking we may want to have this diagram as well.
I don't have a problem sharing what I have done. The I plan I paid for was the solar, lithium batteries the Multiplus II 2 x 120, cerbo gx, lynx distributor, touch 50 display, Orion dc/dc charger and the solar charge controllers. He sized the wires and helped me pick the charge controllers I needed. He was available to answer questions as they came up. He also remoted in to my system after I installed it to help me program all the settings. I think I paid him $380. His name is Dan Heming. He has a web site rvsolarconsulting.com. He was good to work with, and I feel like I got my money's worth from his service. Elliott used him. I got his info from his solar thread. What he did not provide was exactly how to connect to my Foretravel wiring. As it is quite different than your average fifth wheel. So I got my A2700 wiring diagram studied it,had questions about it. Talked to Mike Rash he helped me figure out what I needed. (Thanks Mike) these are the before and after of my A2700 drawing. Also the solar diagram I got from Dan. Sorry if I hijacked Scott's thread moderators feel free to split this off if needed.
Thank you very much for sharing your schematics.
One question I have is on the cables, you list a 6/3g from/to the inverter. Is that SOOW cable you ran (basically 6/4) or did you run Romex (6/3 w/G). Also any insights on how you ran that cable? Did you leave the old 12/2 and 10/2 OEM Romex lines in place?
Foretravel when building my coach used 6/3 SO to each inverter.
Wire to slides from coach to slide was SO Cable. They used romex every where else.
Not sure about anyone else's coach floorplan but on mine the inverter in the basement is quite a long distance from the electrical panel at the foot of the bed. Running cable there and back would be quite a chore. I believe that Scott (DSD) did this recently on his 36' coach. That being said, I loathe 6 gauge copper non metallic cable (6-3 NM or 6-4 NM) having run quite a bit for electric ranges and RV shore power circuits. I would much rather work with 6 gauge SO cable which is significantly more flexible (and better suited for an RV application in my opinion). The difference between SOOW and SJOW is the voltage rating, SO being rated at 600 volts and SJ at 300 volts. The other difference is that SJ is much smaller in diameter and so that would be my choice since in this application since we're no where near 300 volts. One other consideration is that both SJOW and SOOW are rated for exposure where NM (non-metallic) cable is not and must be in a protected location. One last point is that SJOW and SOOW are both rubber jacketed where SJTW is thermoplastic and therefore less desirable in my opinion.
Yes I used 6/4 SOOW wire. I left the old wires in place, just not connected to any thing ( never know might use for something one day). As far as the route for the 6/4 wire, to the front of the bed went from inverter over to the main wire/ hose etc chase through that to where it exits the back bulkhead. Then I put some wire loom around the cable, and wire tied it out of danger. Over the transmission and then up through a hole I drilled through the floor into the compartment under the bed. Where the breaker boxes are, sealed the hole with caulking. My transfer switch for shore power and generator power is near my inverter. So I only had to run 1 6/4 SOOW wire to the back. I removed the other transfer switch that chooses shore power or inverter power as my Multiplus 2 2x120 takes care of that job. I thought running the wire from the inverter to the bed was going to be way harder than it was. I used fiberglass wire fishing rods to push through to the back. I then attached the wire to the pole I pulled from the back, Michelle pushed from the front turned out to not be that bad. ( I took the ceiling down in the big bay and pushed from there). Steve it sounds like you are considering this project. I will try to answer questions if I can. I'm no expert but I am smarter than I was. Tom
Looking around online, SJOW availability seems to stop at 10/4; I haven't found any 6/4. 6/4 SOOW appears to be very common.
Yes - another gal who helps work on the coach ^.^d
How about using expandible vinyl sleeving. Sure makes pulling any kind of wire/cable/fuel hose easy over long distances. ALL SIZES & COLORS 5 FT - 100 FT. Expandable Cable Sleeving Braided Tubing... (https://www.ebay.com/itm/222870191287?_skw=expandable+vinyl+wire+sleeving&itmmeta=01J9FPJCXBEMX1Z88CQR5THSS4&hash=item33e4193cb7%3Ag%3A778AAOSw%7ECFY76V-&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAABAHoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKmaJOUkQWxJ5ZhiOqf3RQ3FI1SPE9jZ9lRT4VliCBuDXVyh1ktFAFrP23ZKWR1GRWAe4Y9SQ8iMp5wbMgAvfNpoLBGfOWG5CWg%2FzmtQhIf1ipyklmdVy76QL9d%2BJh4MWHucqDlmkxz5rHSv%2BBVCYKp%2BmDriRs2p2aKenavBqyEGFrC5YHVfztxlZ4djg5%2FzNanZzkSFzF0bTmtE%2BD0KemlvvuU%2BQhj8q3X7yTh5TVyyfzySNwWcFX%2FUYkb6FMP%2BEkCnb0PBAWyGFfjD%2FrEq%2BB2FsPzTTdpa59bg6IdmwE89VT7p%2B4hLWQ%2Fa5P33r9QTki0%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBM4s7J9stk&var=521703686243) We used the fire resistive type in aircraft wiring.
When I worked for cable TV out of high school, I watched the installers made use a wax cartridge with dental floss type thread inside and then blow the caratridge from one floor to the one above through electrical conduit. Sure would make running a cable front to back of the coach and then easy to attache to one end of the electrical cable.
Pierce
I like the look of the expandable sleeve. Can you explain how it makes it easier to pull wire? I am all about easier. Tom
Tom,
It's a woven really slippery vinyl type material that comes lying flat in a roll. You measure the size of your hose or wire and make sure what you order is not any larger. In this case, slightly smaller is better. Say that you have a fuel hose with a fitting on the end. You take the sleeve at the end with one hand and grab it about three inches away with the other and then push toward each other. It expands so you can push it over the fitting at the end and then you use the fingers on both hands to keep pushing it the entire length of the hose or cable. It should be tight on the hose/wire. This will stiffen the hose/wire a little and since it's slippery, you can push it past sharp edges, corners other wires, etc. I also provides abrasion resistance. I pushed an HDMI cable down through the front where the old TV was, went underneath the coach, fed it around obstacles and pushed it back toward the rear of the coach. I reached in and grabbed it where I could see it and just pulled. Since it's slippery, it just fed from the inside floor of the coach around everything without even pulling hard.
OK, OK, it's hard to imagine exactly how to do it but here is a collection of YouTube videos of how it works: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=installing+braided+expandable+sleeves+over+wires. The second from the top gives a closeup for how it expands. In aircraft, we used the fire resistant type with shrink tubing. You can make looms with wires coming out in different spots, feed the tubing over the wires with shrink tubing and then heat the shrink tubing. It looks like a factory mass produced the loom. It can take a little planning for size getting the shrink tubing over the larger end fittings on hoses.
For electrical wire, it provides an extra layer of abrasion resistance and you can use different colors for the expandable tubing to color code your installation for easy identification in the future. An ideal example would be a side generator fuel line to the main fuel tank. Instead of the rubber hoses getting hung up trying to push past other rubber hoses, it just slides easily past them and makes the replacement hose an easy job.
35 second video on split sleeving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6j_zwmaxuM
Tip: the more you have to expand it to slide it down the wires/hose, the tighter and stiffer the whole thing will be.
Pierce
This is one of the items at the top of my list. We have an original Prosine 2500 and I think 12 year old house gel batteries. So both are on the watch list. Appreciate the help in working through this.
My transfer switch is under the bed, along with the second transfer switch, primary and secondary breaker boxes, 2 Bose Lifestyle Speakers, and a Progressive EMS. As such I have (2) 6/3g running to the bed area, one from shore line and one from the generator. I was thinking I could move the transfer switch back to the inverter location (like yours) and then repurpose one of those 6/3g lines as the Victron A/C output to breaker box.
If I understand your setup, you had a 6/3g from the transfer switch to the bed area. Had you considered moving that existing 6/3g to your Victron output and then a new line from transfer to inverter?
Thanks for your help, I keep rolling around all the options in my head so I have a plan I can follow.
Pierce the expandable sleeve looks like it would be helpful in different situations. Thanks for sharing.
I never really considered it, but it could have worked. I would have had to add a junction box as the wire would not have reached to the inverter. Would have saved a sizeable sum of money on that SOOW wire. My head was swimming with all the details of putting this project together. As I was trying to figure out the solar aspect as well. Tom
I think it could work. There is a lot planning to figure this out ( at least for me). I'm guessing you have found room to move the transfer switch. It does add some complexity to the project. I would try to figure out how difficult it would be to move the transfer switch, and what that would entail first. In your current configuration you would have to run 2 SOOW wires one from the transfer switch to the inverter, then one from the main breaker panel to the inverter. I would be interested if DSD had/ has the same or similar set up you have. Tom
After reading back through what Scott did it seems he has a similar configuration of the transfer switches. He ran 2 SOOW 6/4 from the inverter to under the bed. He might have thoughts on what you are considering ( moving the transfer switch near the inverter). I so far love the capabilities of the MP2 2x120. Might not be worth all the effort and expense, for most people. Tom
Is there any way to get the PDF copy of the Victron diagram as opposed to the screenshot image? I would like to print it but my image quality is a little poor.
George I sent you a pm. Tom