Title: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dbennett9 on March 22, 2024, 10:46:34 pm
Post by: dbennett9 on March 22, 2024, 10:46:34 pm
Last December, I had to have the CAPS fuel pump on my 2004 U270 replaced. Here is the link to the thread covering my fuel pump failure and replacement:
Won't start after changing fuel filters (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=47148.msg478063#msg478063)
For anyone who has the CAPs fuel pump, know that if it fails you are looking at a repair that can run in excess of $10K. As others have stated on the forum, problems with the fuel delivery system to the CAPS pump likely contribute to the issue. Others believe the main issue is air entering the system, likely through the lift pump. I believe it is more likely fuel starvation, which can be caused by a number of factors (lift pump issues, fuel line issues, clogged lines and filters). Either way, the FASS system is a good solution because it delivers a constant supply of fuel under low pressure instead of relying on the CAPS pump to suck fuel through 20-25 feet of fuel line.
I decided to do the FASS update and bought the pump in December, but I had been carrying it around until last week, waiting for a good opportunity to install it. Last week the coach's Engine Maintenance light, and then Stop Engine light, began coming on, after which the coach would die. Because of the previous problem, I immediately suspected the fuel system and decided to do the FASS install, even though I was not at a location ideally suited to such an install (I was at a relative's place outside of a tiny town in Mississippi). Ultimately, I found (after installing the FASS system and finding it did not fix the problem) that the problem was a bad coolant level sensor (don't buy a cheap one from Amazon). Still, I am glad to have the install and would like to share a few notes for the benefit of owners with a similar coach.
The installation was easy overall. FASS recommended the Industrial Series 165 GPH system for my coach. The Industrial Series does not require a new fuel return line; the fuel return can be tied into the existing return line. I spoke with two FASS representatives who confirmed that there is no problem using the existing line with this system. One problem, however, is that the fuel return line on the ISL is routed using steel lines back through the housing of the lift pump. To remove the lift pump would require some very involved re-plumbing of the lines, which I couldn't do where I was working on the pump. Instead, I chose to leave the lift pump in place and tie into the return line as it exits the lift pump housing, using the adapter provided with the FASS system. I installed a relay connected to the wires that used to go to the lift pump so the ECM would think there is a load.
The main problem with the install on my coach was the space to install the FASS. I installed the FASS in the same location as the old primary filter so that I wouldn't have to reroute and extend the fuel lines. The problem is that the FASS pump barely fits in the space, right between the air dryer and the ride height valve. As the pictures show, there is only about I/8 to 3/16'' between the FASS filter and one of the air dryer lines, and there is only a little more clearance between the input line fitting and the ride height rod. It might be possible to get more clearance on the input side by moving the FASS assembly lower, but that would cause other clearance issues on the output side. The mounting I did, while very tight, appeared to be the best option on this coach.
Everything else was simple. I wired the power lines directly to the batteries in the same compartment and the control line to a switched fuse on the inside of the bed compartment. With a good place to work and all supplies on hand, the entire installation on my coach could be done in 4-6 hours. It took me probably twice that because of where I did the job, but I am glad to have it done.
Won't start after changing fuel filters (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=47148.msg478063#msg478063)
For anyone who has the CAPs fuel pump, know that if it fails you are looking at a repair that can run in excess of $10K. As others have stated on the forum, problems with the fuel delivery system to the CAPS pump likely contribute to the issue. Others believe the main issue is air entering the system, likely through the lift pump. I believe it is more likely fuel starvation, which can be caused by a number of factors (lift pump issues, fuel line issues, clogged lines and filters). Either way, the FASS system is a good solution because it delivers a constant supply of fuel under low pressure instead of relying on the CAPS pump to suck fuel through 20-25 feet of fuel line.
I decided to do the FASS update and bought the pump in December, but I had been carrying it around until last week, waiting for a good opportunity to install it. Last week the coach's Engine Maintenance light, and then Stop Engine light, began coming on, after which the coach would die. Because of the previous problem, I immediately suspected the fuel system and decided to do the FASS install, even though I was not at a location ideally suited to such an install (I was at a relative's place outside of a tiny town in Mississippi). Ultimately, I found (after installing the FASS system and finding it did not fix the problem) that the problem was a bad coolant level sensor (don't buy a cheap one from Amazon). Still, I am glad to have the install and would like to share a few notes for the benefit of owners with a similar coach.
The installation was easy overall. FASS recommended the Industrial Series 165 GPH system for my coach. The Industrial Series does not require a new fuel return line; the fuel return can be tied into the existing return line. I spoke with two FASS representatives who confirmed that there is no problem using the existing line with this system. One problem, however, is that the fuel return line on the ISL is routed using steel lines back through the housing of the lift pump. To remove the lift pump would require some very involved re-plumbing of the lines, which I couldn't do where I was working on the pump. Instead, I chose to leave the lift pump in place and tie into the return line as it exits the lift pump housing, using the adapter provided with the FASS system. I installed a relay connected to the wires that used to go to the lift pump so the ECM would think there is a load.
The main problem with the install on my coach was the space to install the FASS. I installed the FASS in the same location as the old primary filter so that I wouldn't have to reroute and extend the fuel lines. The problem is that the FASS pump barely fits in the space, right between the air dryer and the ride height valve. As the pictures show, there is only about I/8 to 3/16'' between the FASS filter and one of the air dryer lines, and there is only a little more clearance between the input line fitting and the ride height rod. It might be possible to get more clearance on the input side by moving the FASS assembly lower, but that would cause other clearance issues on the output side. The mounting I did, while very tight, appeared to be the best option on this coach.
Everything else was simple. I wired the power lines directly to the batteries in the same compartment and the control line to a switched fuse on the inside of the bed compartment. With a good place to work and all supplies on hand, the entire installation on my coach could be done in 4-6 hours. It took me probably twice that because of where I did the job, but I am glad to have it done.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on March 23, 2024, 01:00:22 am
Post by: dsd on March 23, 2024, 01:00:22 am
I really think it a great addition to a caps system. I eventually will have one on my 320. I carry a spare coolant level switch and several other sensors that will strand you. Cheap insurance IMO
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: zmpm01 on March 24, 2024, 09:04:41 am
Post by: zmpm01 on March 24, 2024, 09:04:41 am
dbeenett9, I love the idea of the FASS system but what has been holding me back from the install is a FASS rep. said the pump was not designed to pull fuel from the tank that far. What has been your experience with the pump as far as self priming and have you pulled the fuel tank level down say below half a tank. I have installed the FASS system on hi HP Cummins 5.9 and 6.7 engines but the pump was with in 3-5 ft. of the tank. Any thoughts? Thanks for the info. Mike
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on March 24, 2024, 11:13:56 pm
Post by: mkc1962 on March 24, 2024, 11:13:56 pm
dbeenett9, I love the idea of the FASS system but what has been holding me back from the install is a FASS rep. said the pump was not designed to pull fuel from the tank that far. What has been your experience with the pump as far as self priming and have you pulled the fuel tank level down say below half a tank. I have installed the FASS system on hi HP Cummins 5.9 and 6.7 engines but the pump was with in 3-5 ft. of the tank. Any thoughts? Thanks for the info. Mike
I have had the full Fass titanium system on our 2001 U295 for about 2 years now. MY Fass rep (Gene) stated just the opposite as for distance, no problem at all. Several of the FASS install videos on youtube and similar show the pump system being mounted at the very rear of the coach. Primes very easily even after filter changes. I rarely go much less than about 3/8 tank, but never any issues. I installed my system above/behind the cranking batteries in place of the old primary fuel filter....here is the link to my full install.
FASS fuel system install upgrade (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=44734.msg453525#msg453525)
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: oldguy on March 24, 2024, 11:47:52 pm
Post by: oldguy on March 24, 2024, 11:47:52 pm
I mounted mine the same place Mike did and I have gone down to a quarter of a tank of fuel
with no problem. I have the old system that needed it's own return line so I welded a 3/8th
piece of plate to the top of the tank to return the fuel back to the top of the tank.
with no problem. I have the old system that needed it's own return line so I welded a 3/8th
piece of plate to the top of the tank to return the fuel back to the top of the tank.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: zmpm01 on March 25, 2024, 10:56:11 pm
Post by: zmpm01 on March 25, 2024, 10:56:11 pm
Thanks for the information, Now I have another project to add to the list!
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dbennett9 on March 28, 2024, 09:26:14 pm
Post by: dbennett9 on March 28, 2024, 09:26:14 pm
Like the others, I mounted the FASS system in place of the old primary filter, above the batteries. When I installed it, only about 1/4 to 3/8 showed on the fuel gauge. The pump primed very easily; I ran the pump for about 30 seconds with the key on, then started the coach. It died after a few seconds, then started up again immediately and that was it. The FASS representative I spoke to also did not indicate that the distance from the tank is an issue. So far (300-400 miles) I have encountered no issues. One thing I do plan to do is add a fuel pressure gauge, so I can always be sure there is a good supply of fuel at the right pressure since fuel supply issues seem to be at the core of CAPS failures.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: fatheeler on March 29, 2024, 02:59:52 pm
Post by: fatheeler on March 29, 2024, 02:59:52 pm
Same here, added shutoff ball valve before the pump and one after the old primary filter to minimize issues when changing filters, also have dash pressure gauge plus one on the pump,
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on March 29, 2024, 03:36:02 pm
Post by: dsd on March 29, 2024, 03:36:02 pm
Curious if anyone has given consideration to the FASS optional fuel heater system?
https://fassride.com/wp-content/uploads/HK-1002.pdf
https://fassride.com/wp-content/uploads/HK-1002.pdf
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: Chuck Pearson on March 29, 2024, 07:30:32 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on March 29, 2024, 07:30:32 pm
One Q. Is the FASS system supplementary to the CAPS pump or can it substitute for CAPS if it fails?
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: bbeane on March 29, 2024, 11:42:33 pm
Post by: bbeane on March 29, 2024, 11:42:33 pm
It is simply a transfer pump for the CAPS injector pump system, to insure sufficient fuel delivery to the injector pump.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on March 30, 2024, 12:03:11 am
Post by: dsd on March 30, 2024, 12:03:11 am
Yes but also in addition to a lift pump and supplying positive pressure to the CAPs pump it also removes all the micro air bubbles from the fuel and scrubs fuel and returns it back to the fuel tank. By eliminating the air higher fuel pressures are achieved and more efficient operation. Also with the air removed fuel nozzles dont hammer when closing do to the fuel not compressing increase their life span, or at least this is part of their sales pitch. I do agree with the higher fuel pressure from the fuel injection pump. My ISB truck with the aux filter comes with the heater, but ive never hooked up for southern nevada.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: oldguy on March 30, 2024, 12:35:38 am
Post by: oldguy on March 30, 2024, 12:35:38 am
I am going to check out about the fuel heater as I have never heard about them before but it may
make for easier starting in the cold. My coach starts up fine down to 14 F without heating the engine
but with heated fuel maybe it will start at 0.
make for easier starting in the cold. My coach starts up fine down to 14 F without heating the engine
but with heated fuel maybe it will start at 0.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dbennett9 on March 30, 2024, 11:27:36 pm
Post by: dbennett9 on March 30, 2024, 11:27:36 pm
Didn't consider the heater. I just try to avoid any temperatures where I might need it.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on March 31, 2024, 12:12:02 pm
Post by: mkc1962 on March 31, 2024, 12:12:02 pm
One Q. Is the FASS system supplementary to the CAPS pump or can it substitute for CAPS if it fails?
It replaces the small electric Lift pump, but also as others have stated, keeps positive pressure to the CAPS pump AND removes all air from the fuel prior to that.......the CAPS pump is what increases the pressure for the fuel rail/Injectors.
One of the common well documented reasons for CAPS pump failure is, Too much air in the incoming fuel from a failing lift pump gasket or cracks in fuel lines. The air causes the CAPS pump to lose lubricity as well as overheat and causes mechanical internal damage.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: Chuck Pearson on March 31, 2024, 06:46:52 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on March 31, 2024, 06:46:52 pm
It replaces the small electric Lift pump, but also as others have stated, keeps positive pressure to the CAPS pump AND removes all air from the fuel prior to that.......the CAPS pump is what increases the pressure for the fuel rail/Injectors.
One of the common well documented reasons for CAPS pump failure is, Too much air in the incoming fuel from a failing lift pump gasket or cracks in fuel lines. The air causes the CAPS pump to lose lubricity as well as overheat and causes mechanical internal damage.
So, much like the VP40 injection pump on 24 valve Cummins that fails quickly if the $15.00 Carter lift pump fails? I thought the CAPS had a low pressure pump module in it. No experience with it, hence the uninformed questions.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: MAZ on April 01, 2024, 01:39:28 pm
Post by: MAZ on April 01, 2024, 01:39:28 pm
UP95G - Heavy Duty Lift Pump for Cummins ISC & ISL CAPS Fuel System (https://www.ultrarvproducts.com/UP95G-Heavy-Duty-Lift-Pump-for-Cummins-ISC-ISL-CAPS-Fuel-System)
I suppose you could keep your existing filter setup and install just a fass pump.
Mark
I suppose you could keep your existing filter setup and install just a fass pump.
Mark
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on April 01, 2024, 10:58:14 pm
Post by: mkc1962 on April 01, 2024, 10:58:14 pm
UP95G - Heavy Duty Lift Pump for Cummins ISC & ISL CAPS Fuel System (https://www.ultrarvproducts.com/UP95G-Heavy-Duty-Lift-Pump-for-Cummins-ISC-ISL-CAPS-Fuel-System)
I suppose you could keep your existing filter setup and install just a fass pump.
Mark
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on April 01, 2024, 11:05:32 pm
Post by: mkc1962 on April 01, 2024, 11:05:32 pm
So, much like the VP40 injection pump on 24 valve Cummins that fails quickly if the $15.00 Carter lift pump fails? I thought the CAPS had a low pressure pump module in it. No experience with it, hence the uninformed questions.
The CAPS injection pump itself IS what sucks the fuel after the lift pump primes/starts the process. But that function in itself is part of the problem. Its not a very robust setup and any failure such as air leaking on the suction line causes internal heat and possible mechanical damage to the pump or other parts of the injection pump. To quote several Cummins techs I spoke to years ago...." CAPS was not a very proud moment for Cummins, but its failures do make service centers a lot of money"...Keeping constant incoming fuel flow/pressure into the CAPS pump is the best that anyone can do to ensure it lasts a long time.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on May 28, 2024, 05:21:28 pm
Post by: evantwheeler on May 28, 2024, 05:21:28 pm
I don't see the need to start a new thread, and not much details to share as this was a very straight forward install, but I successfully installed the 165gph FASS Industrial setup into my 2000 U320 over the weekend. I'd say it took me about 12 hrs total. For my coach, I did not need any additional fittings, I was able to complete the installation with everything supplied in the kit. I removed my engine battery tray frame and welded in a couple of cross members to mount the FASS unit to. The frame rail is far too close to the floor to be able to mount the FASS directly to the frame. I re-routed my fuel lines, and will monitor them closely as the supply hose has a bit tighter radius that I would prefer, but certainly isn't kinked or close to kinking. Return hose goes to the engine return line and the return fuel goes through the fuel cooler before returning to the tank with the rest of the unused fuel from the injector pump.
The reason for my upgrade was that I was fed up with losing prime on my Racor system. The 300200 filter housings would warp and leak, and the engine would sometime stumble at idle due to the leaky unit. I have gone through four of the 300200 filter housings in about 15000 miles. I am hoping for better fuel economy (I dont track it so I wont ever really know), and also more power for the hills. I have a brand new 300200 filter housing and the racor unit/controller I will be putting in classifieds when I return from vacation.
Before:
After:
I utilized the old mounting holes in the frame to secure the relay and the fuse holder. The supplied harness from FASS is very long, I trimmed about 4' or so out of the trigger wire and power/ground leads. Overall, I think the cost difference between the FASS and other options out there to replace the old Racor system are worth it for the FASS. I think it was $300 or so more than other options I was looking at, and picked up the FASS on a 10% off sale directly from their website during black friday last year.
Wave or honk if you see me on I-15 over the next couple weeks coming or going. We're headed to St. Anthony ID for some sand therapy since our normal playground in Glamis is too hot this time of year.
The reason for my upgrade was that I was fed up with losing prime on my Racor system. The 300200 filter housings would warp and leak, and the engine would sometime stumble at idle due to the leaky unit. I have gone through four of the 300200 filter housings in about 15000 miles. I am hoping for better fuel economy (I dont track it so I wont ever really know), and also more power for the hills. I have a brand new 300200 filter housing and the racor unit/controller I will be putting in classifieds when I return from vacation.
Before:
After:
I utilized the old mounting holes in the frame to secure the relay and the fuse holder. The supplied harness from FASS is very long, I trimmed about 4' or so out of the trigger wire and power/ground leads. Overall, I think the cost difference between the FASS and other options out there to replace the old Racor system are worth it for the FASS. I think it was $300 or so more than other options I was looking at, and picked up the FASS on a 10% off sale directly from their website during black friday last year.
Wave or honk if you see me on I-15 over the next couple weeks coming or going. We're headed to St. Anthony ID for some sand therapy since our normal playground in Glamis is too hot this time of year.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on May 28, 2024, 07:16:45 pm
Post by: dsd on May 28, 2024, 07:16:45 pm
Did you use the return fitting or add an additional return to the tank? I think the idea of having a on board fuel polishing system is great. Removing all the air is not talked about much but is a big deal when you look at injection final pressures. Please post back if you notice improved economy or being a little more peppy. Wish I had mine done!!! Does your have a fuel cooler?
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: oldguy on May 28, 2024, 07:36:30 pm
Post by: oldguy on May 28, 2024, 07:36:30 pm
I put the Fass system in too and the Racor system doesn't take the air out of the fuel. When I got mine
I had to run a separate fuel line. Nice job.
I had to run a separate fuel line. Nice job.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on May 28, 2024, 07:45:04 pm
Post by: evantwheeler on May 28, 2024, 07:45:04 pm
Did you use the return fitting or add an additional return to the tank? I think the idea of having a on board fuel polishing system is great. Removing all the air is not talked about much but is a big deal when you look at injection final pressures. Please post back if you notice improved economy or being a little more peppy. Wish I had mine done!!! Does your have a fuel cooler?
I used the return fitting included from FASS and put it right at the return from the injection pump at the engine. This return from the injection pump goes to the fuel cooler and then back to the tank. I'll snap a photo tonight. I considered putting the FASS return downstream of the fuel cooler, which would require me to procure a couple additional fittings, but I don't think I'll have any issues with the install considering this is what FASS recommends (tie into existing return VS. running a dedicated return).
Unfortunately I don't track fuel mileage, mostly because the "fill level" is never an exact repeatable point. The second reason is if I cared about fuel mileage, I wouldn't be doing this to begin with. We drive at 65-70mph once we get into the free states of America, and you just cannot care about mileage when youre pushing a brick at 70mph with 10k in tow.... IME, calcuated mileage will vary based on how full the tank gets, which is not repeatable with our filler neck/tank systems. I have seen where some Silverleaf systems will report burned fuel, but I can't say I would trust that number to give accuarate data, it has to be an estimate as there isn't a calibrated flow meter from the injection pump to injectors.
I can't imagine I WONT feel a difference in power, my old system had to be sucking air based on how quickly it would lose prime. For reference, when I removed the old system coach had been off for less than 12 hrs, and i lost probably less than 1/2 cup of diesel from the disconnected lines. I was setup with diapers and a catch/drip pan expecting a lot more than what I encountered.
I have a trip to Idaho & back, leaving Thursday. I've made the trip 3 times in the past, and there are a few long grades that I recall having to shift into 3rd and sit at 45 mph and climb up. If I'm able to pull them at a higher speed, it'll indicate more HP being produced. I don't have Silverleaf or any add-on monitoring, just the factory gauges, so I won't have any data other than my SOTP dyno.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on May 28, 2024, 11:18:26 pm
Post by: evantwheeler on May 28, 2024, 11:18:26 pm
Return line final arrangement. -04 300psi rated hose from FASS kit, along with the -08 black aluminum Tee.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2024, 10:01:23 am
Post by: dsd on May 29, 2024, 10:01:23 am
So I too think running the return through the ECM fuel cooler will add additional cooling for the ECM. When I asked about the fuel cooler I was asking about a fuel cooler outside of your CAC. You can look through the outer louvers and see if you have one installed. The ECMs need all the cooling they can get and running at higher power settings, hotter outside temperatures and less total fuel in the tank will see higher ECM operating temperature. You will see the fuel tank temperature rise quite high. There was a changeover when they started adding the fuel cooler and I think your build was near that time. If you dont have one, I would add one on my coach. ECM failure is not fun at all.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on May 29, 2024, 11:19:16 am
Post by: evantwheeler on May 29, 2024, 11:19:16 am
So I too think running the return through the ECM fuel cooler will add additional cooling for the ECM. When I asked about the fuel cooler I was asking about a fuel cooler outside of your CAC. You can look through the outer louvers and see if you have one installed. The ECMs need all the cooling they can get and running at higher power settings, hotter outside temperatures and less total fuel in the tank will see higher ECM operating temperature. You will see the fuel tank temperature rise quite high. There was a changeover when they started adding the fuel cooler and I think your build was near that time. If you dont have one, I would add one on my coach. ECM failure is not fun at all.
I dont know where the ECM is, but that blue hose in the photos above goes to the fuel cooler outboard of the CAC. I tried to get a photo of it, but it came out poorly and was worthless. The blue hose goes to a finned 3 tube aluminum cooler, and then there is a black fuel hose from the cooler that looks to be the return line back to the tank.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: oldguy on May 29, 2024, 11:43:30 am
Post by: oldguy on May 29, 2024, 11:43:30 am
The ECM is right before beside the tee you put in for the Fass system in your first picture.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on May 29, 2024, 02:24:37 pm
Post by: evantwheeler on May 29, 2024, 02:24:37 pm
The ECM is right before beside the tee you put in for the Fass system in your first picture.
Copy. So with that being the case, I believe my TEE was installed downstream of the ECM, and the return flow from the FASS unit itself isn't contributing to any additional flow through the ECM.
I am not familiar with all the plumbing of this fuel system, but I suspect that the lift pump itself WILL increase return flow through the ECM unit seeing as it is a constant volume pump. Any unneeded fuel at the injection pump is presumably sent back through the ECM and fuel cooler to the tank, and this "surplus" fuel has to be a much higher volume that the previous system since it was operating under vacuum/suction, and now will have positive pressure from the lift pump.
I may be incorrect, but my assumption is the old Winn/Racor setup was not a lift pump. The little pump for air purge only operated when commanded from the little control unit. I never heard a pump or saw operation of that unit key on /engine off, unless I commanded an air purge.....
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: fatheeler on May 29, 2024, 02:37:00 pm
Post by: fatheeler on May 29, 2024, 02:37:00 pm
Curious where does the cooling fuel for the ECM come from is it before or after the injection pump, when I plumbed mine, I capped the lift pump and ran directly the injection pump, is the ECM getting cooled this way
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on May 29, 2024, 02:47:44 pm
Post by: evantwheeler on May 29, 2024, 02:47:44 pm
Curious where does the cooling fuel for the ECM come from is it before or after the injection pump, when I plumbed mine, I capped the lift pump and ran directly the injection pump, is the ECM getting cooled this way
I just want to note that you and I have different engines, so our fuel systems are likely very different. My photos only pertain to the M11 engine and my coach is a 2000 year model.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: Pamela & Mike on May 29, 2024, 03:40:16 pm
Post by: Pamela & Mike on May 29, 2024, 03:40:16 pm
One thing I need to input at this point now that different engines have come up. Scott (dsd) and myself have found out that sometime during the engine upgrades they changed the routing of the fuel flow. To expand on this our '97 M-11 and several others that I am aware of the fuel comes from the fuel tank, through the primary filter, to the ECM cooler, then to the 2ndary fuel filter, and on to the engine fuel pump. All unused fuel is returned to the tank, some coaches straight to the tank and some went through a cooler mounted in front of the CAC.
Scott has found (he can expand if I am mistaken) some coaches the return fuel to the tank goes through the ECM cooler after it passes through a cooler that is mounted in front of the CAC.
So to be sure what set up you have you will need to do some snooping around on your exact coach.
Mike
Scott has found (he can expand if I am mistaken) some coaches the return fuel to the tank goes through the ECM cooler after it passes through a cooler that is mounted in front of the CAC.
So to be sure what set up you have you will need to do some snooping around on your exact coach.
Mike
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: fatheeler on May 29, 2024, 06:31:47 pm
Post by: fatheeler on May 29, 2024, 06:31:47 pm
Mine runs through the cooler in front of the cac then back to the tank, can't find any info on this online
Thanks
Mike
Thanks
Mike
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on May 30, 2024, 04:54:04 pm
Post by: evantwheeler on May 30, 2024, 04:54:04 pm
Had a long talk with tech support today. He was in no hurry to rush me off the phone, it was nice to have someone knowledgeable about the product not shooing you away so they can take the next call. Made me feel even better about my purchase.
The primary reason for my call was that the installation instructions call for a 30amp fuse on the positive lead to the lift pump motor, but a 10amp is supplied. It was confirmed that 10amp is correct for this model.
Second question was about misc operations of the coach with Key on/Engine Off. He suggested pulling the fuse if I intended to have KO/EO for an extended period. Probably not a big deal, but there are a few times where I turn the ignition key to on position without starting to do something with the coach - like extend or retract the slide. Little bit of a pain to remember to go back and pull the fuse, likely not necessary for the slide procedure. He said running the pump without the engine running is not an issue as long as there are no other issues with the fuel system, the fuel will just be circulating back to tank. I think a good upgrade to this system would be a some kind of relay with a timer (unsure if anything like this exists) that gets power only when the engine is running. After 10 or 15 seconds of no engine on signal, it would kick the lift pump off.
He strongly recommended carrying spare proprietary FASS filters (which I don't have). Bad fuel can cause clogging and added draw from the motor and blow the fuse. He did say it is a fail safe draw thorough system, so the engine should still run if the lift pump loses power - the injection pump would pull fuel through the FASS system. We didn't get into the details of this. I'm crossing my fingers on the spare filters, I didn't buy any at time of purchase. I've put 30,000 or so miles on the coach and have yet to have any bad fuel issues.....FASS does have a list of recommended cross referenced filters, though they say only use them short term until the correct filters can be procured. They have a great Distributor finding application on their site, I call the 5 closest to me this morning to try to get my hands on some spare filters and no one stocked them.....
Will report back on my thoughts of this upgrade over the weekend once we arrive to the destination.
The primary reason for my call was that the installation instructions call for a 30amp fuse on the positive lead to the lift pump motor, but a 10amp is supplied. It was confirmed that 10amp is correct for this model.
Second question was about misc operations of the coach with Key on/Engine Off. He suggested pulling the fuse if I intended to have KO/EO for an extended period. Probably not a big deal, but there are a few times where I turn the ignition key to on position without starting to do something with the coach - like extend or retract the slide. Little bit of a pain to remember to go back and pull the fuse, likely not necessary for the slide procedure. He said running the pump without the engine running is not an issue as long as there are no other issues with the fuel system, the fuel will just be circulating back to tank. I think a good upgrade to this system would be a some kind of relay with a timer (unsure if anything like this exists) that gets power only when the engine is running. After 10 or 15 seconds of no engine on signal, it would kick the lift pump off.
He strongly recommended carrying spare proprietary FASS filters (which I don't have). Bad fuel can cause clogging and added draw from the motor and blow the fuse. He did say it is a fail safe draw thorough system, so the engine should still run if the lift pump loses power - the injection pump would pull fuel through the FASS system. We didn't get into the details of this. I'm crossing my fingers on the spare filters, I didn't buy any at time of purchase. I've put 30,000 or so miles on the coach and have yet to have any bad fuel issues.....FASS does have a list of recommended cross referenced filters, though they say only use them short term until the correct filters can be procured. They have a great Distributor finding application on their site, I call the 5 closest to me this morning to try to get my hands on some spare filters and no one stocked them.....
Will report back on my thoughts of this upgrade over the weekend once we arrive to the destination.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: evantwheeler on June 02, 2024, 05:28:02 pm
Post by: evantwheeler on June 02, 2024, 05:28:02 pm
I cant say for sure it was all due to the FASS because there are a couple of variables that changed, but I just drove from SoCal to Southern Idaho and i didnt touch 3rd gear once. Typically i would hit every large grade and have to shift down to 3rd to keep the rpms up and temps down. Now i can pull those same hills in 4th. I guesstimate fuel mileage to be between 7 and 8mpg pulling 9k enclosed trailer at 60-65mph average speed.
I would do the FASS again in a heartbeat.
I would do the FASS again in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: D.J. Osborn on June 07, 2024, 06:49:06 pm
Post by: D.J. Osborn on June 07, 2024, 06:49:06 pm
I cant say for sure it was all due to the FASS because there are a couple of variables that changed, but I just drove from SoCal to Southern Idaho and i didnt touch 3rd gear once. Typically i would hit every large grade and have to shift down to 3rd to keep the rpms up and temps down. Now i can pull those same hills in 4th. I guesstimate fuel mileage to be between 7 and 8mpg pulling 9k enclosed trailer at 60-65mph average speed.
I would do the FASS again in a heartbeat.
I'm glad you're pleased with your FASS. However your results are pretty much what should be expected from your motorhome size and engine. In the absence of actual side-by-side test results of any FASS installation I still believe you could have saved time and money and had equivalent results by simply replacing the old Winn system with a Parker/Racor 790R30. I remain very pleased with my installation.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on June 08, 2024, 10:59:59 am
Post by: mkc1962 on June 08, 2024, 10:59:59 am
I've had my FASS system running now for a bit over 2 years. I would highly recommend spare filters as I would for all the filters on the coach. I always get mine in the Multi pack from Amazon. Considering the price of any types of fuel filters, to buy the Fass ones in a multi pack is not that expensive.
.
Amazon.com: FASS Titanium Series Fuel Filter & Water Seprator Pack Combo Of... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08M4HL7X3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I would also recommend a Fuel pressure gauge on the dash for monitoring the system. I put one in during my FASS install and on a recent trip darn glad I did.
My Fass system normally produces in the range of 15-18 psi (running/idle). About a year ago I started to notice that during running I was more down around 10 psi, so figured to replace the filters prior to a 2 week outing. I cut them open and the primary filter, which is nothing but pleated very fine stainless had quite a bit of black slimy stuff embedded in it ( well over 50% of the surface area. As this was my first set of filters, and the condition of the tank was unknown at that time, I was not surprised by the find. I also cut open the second filter which is a moisture separator, inside it looks like a K&N air filter, some sort of fiber between two looser stainless mesh layers. if it had any in it near impossible to tell. After new filters back to the 15-18 range.
Move forward to this year, about 3k miles later. We left for a long weekend, left house and about an hour out, those same pressures were reading 18 idle and about 5 psi running. I pulled over, swapped in a new set, all went back to normal 15/18.
When we got back from the trip performed a similar autopsy of the filters. Primary fuel was near spotless, secondary also spotless. There is no way in hell any particles are ever going to be seen on the second filter, and in my opinion, wet fiber is wet fiber regardless if water or diesel is making it look wet. I Only assume I Must have gotten a large amount of moisture from somewhere and the secondary did its job. Which in turn caused the pressure drop. I never blew a fuse, but at least I was still supplying positive pressure to the CAPS pump.
Keeping positive pressure to the CAPS injection pump is the main benefit of a FASS or Airdog system.. The tiny 30 second lift pump is the main reason behind most CAPS failures, and one of the most non proud moments in Cummins history. Ask any Cummins tech worth their weight in salt, they will all tell you the same.. Having the extra fuel polishing and air removal of a FASS or Airdog system, is just an added benefit.
.
Amazon.com: FASS Titanium Series Fuel Filter & Water Seprator Pack Combo Of... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08M4HL7X3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I would also recommend a Fuel pressure gauge on the dash for monitoring the system. I put one in during my FASS install and on a recent trip darn glad I did.
My Fass system normally produces in the range of 15-18 psi (running/idle). About a year ago I started to notice that during running I was more down around 10 psi, so figured to replace the filters prior to a 2 week outing. I cut them open and the primary filter, which is nothing but pleated very fine stainless had quite a bit of black slimy stuff embedded in it ( well over 50% of the surface area. As this was my first set of filters, and the condition of the tank was unknown at that time, I was not surprised by the find. I also cut open the second filter which is a moisture separator, inside it looks like a K&N air filter, some sort of fiber between two looser stainless mesh layers. if it had any in it near impossible to tell. After new filters back to the 15-18 range.
Move forward to this year, about 3k miles later. We left for a long weekend, left house and about an hour out, those same pressures were reading 18 idle and about 5 psi running. I pulled over, swapped in a new set, all went back to normal 15/18.
When we got back from the trip performed a similar autopsy of the filters. Primary fuel was near spotless, secondary also spotless. There is no way in hell any particles are ever going to be seen on the second filter, and in my opinion, wet fiber is wet fiber regardless if water or diesel is making it look wet. I Only assume I Must have gotten a large amount of moisture from somewhere and the secondary did its job. Which in turn caused the pressure drop. I never blew a fuse, but at least I was still supplying positive pressure to the CAPS pump.
Keeping positive pressure to the CAPS injection pump is the main benefit of a FASS or Airdog system.. The tiny 30 second lift pump is the main reason behind most CAPS failures, and one of the most non proud moments in Cummins history. Ask any Cummins tech worth their weight in salt, they will all tell you the same.. Having the extra fuel polishing and air removal of a FASS or Airdog system, is just an added benefit.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 08:34:10 pm
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 08:34:10 pm
I installed a fast pump 30,000 miles ago and in the last two trips I have noticed my pump has fallen off 2 PSI. my alarm point used to be at 12 and now it's at 10 at full load. ordered a new pump and will install it and see if the pump has deteriorated over that time. Idling pressures are both the same but full delivery pressure is 2 PSI lower.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: wolfe10 on June 08, 2024, 08:41:42 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on June 08, 2024, 08:41:42 pm
Have you changed the fuel filter?
Restriction in either of the filters could account for the PSI drop as well as a pump issue.
Restriction in either of the filters could account for the PSI drop as well as a pump issue.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:00:36 pm
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:00:36 pm
Yes, have replaced the filter several times way more than I needed to. I'm kind of excited to see if the new pump of the same make and same model will give me the same result.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:02:55 pm
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:02:55 pm
I don't see any problem as positive pressure is all we're actually looking for with this caps system
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: oldguy on June 08, 2024, 09:05:38 pm
Post by: oldguy on June 08, 2024, 09:05:38 pm
I wonder if they have a pressure relief valve.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:20:22 pm
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:20:22 pm
Maybe in the original lift pump design . I remember that fass and cummins told me they would not put more than 19.5 pounds to caps pump
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:21:04 pm
Post by: opelgt327 on June 08, 2024, 09:21:04 pm
Suction side
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on June 09, 2024, 09:14:28 am
Post by: dsd on June 09, 2024, 09:14:28 am
I cant say for sure it was all due to the FASS because there are a couple of variables that changed, but I just drove from SoCal to Southern Idaho and i didnt touch 3rd gear once. Typically i would hit every large grade and have to shift down to 3rd to keep the rpms up and temps down. Now i can pull those same hills in 4th. I guesstimate fuel mileage to be between 7 and 8mpg pulling 9k enclosed trailer at 60-65mph average speed.
I would do the FASS again in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on June 09, 2024, 10:31:14 am
Post by: mkc1962 on June 09, 2024, 10:31:14 am
Maybe in the original lift pump design . I remember that fass and cummins told me they would not put more than 19.5 pounds to caps pump
I called 2 different Cummins shop during my purchase phase, both stated the CAPS pumps was rated at 24psi max on the incoming side.....countless FASS and Airdog pumps have been installed on CAPS systems over the past decade or so.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on June 09, 2024, 10:41:33 am
Post by: mkc1962 on June 09, 2024, 10:41:33 am
Well finally got motivated enough to order a FASS system. Mechanically this was about the last expensive project. Although the ISM is CAPs free system I still believe its advantages mandated going that route. Ordered spare filters with initial purchase. Mike I really like the idea of viewing a pressure gauge during operation. I do know for a fact that currently my system operates under a vacuum. Fourdaysoff Jim also ordered a system and had mentioned that they were on sale and should be held accountable for me pulling the trigger on the purchase. If anyone has remote pressure indicator information a separate thread would be appreciated or I'll post what I find.
Scott,
As for the remote pressure monitoring, I ordered this one to go with my install when I did it few years back.
Amazon.com: GlowShift Black 7 Color 30 PSI Fuel Pressure Gauge Kit -... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007IKELQY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I would like to have had a dash matching Stewart Warner but they are way to proud of their gauges. This one has worked great. BUT, I really need to take the time to actually mount it in the dash, (there is room) but I need to remove all gauges, pull the bezel and drill as it is a tight fit.
At the moment I have it mounted to the bottom of the dash, but have to go out of my way to see it. The recent drop to 5 PSI made me realize I need to be able to more readily see it.
I used one of the spare Foretravel wires to bring the signal back to the dash from the Fass that I mounted above my starting batteries.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on June 09, 2024, 11:48:06 am
Post by: dsd on June 09, 2024, 11:48:06 am
Scott,
As for the remote pressure monitoring, I ordered this one to go with my install when I did it few years back.
Amazon.com: GlowShift Black 7 Color 30 PSI Fuel Pressure Gauge Kit -... (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007IKELQY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I would like to have had a dash matching Stewart Warner but they are way to proud of their gauges. This one has worked great. BUT, I really need to take the time to actually mount it in the dash, (there is room) but I need to remove all gauges, pull the bezel and drill as it is a tight fit.
At the moment I have it mounted to the bottom of the dash, but have to go out of my way to see it. The recent drop to 5 PSI made me realize I need to be able to more readily see it.
I used one of the spare Foretravel wires to bring the signal back to the dash from the Fass that I mounted above my starting batteries.
DON'T drill the hole till your sure its not that 600V back lighting panels. Will kill it I too was looking at those already. Great mind think alike
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: mkc1962 on June 09, 2024, 09:32:45 pm
Post by: mkc1962 on June 09, 2024, 09:32:45 pm
DON'T drill the hole till your sure its not that 600V back lighting panels. Will kill it I too was looking at those already. Great mind think alike
HA....MOT already fried all of that by drilling a 1/2" hole straight through that ribbon. They installed a BlueOx steering stabilizer for the owner I bought from just a few month prior to our purchase. About 1 month into owning I kept smelling a faint burning on occasion. I finally caught the arcing one night while driving in the dark. Once home, I pulled the entire dash, The push=button for setting the steering stabilizer was the issue, or actually the high voltage lighting Ribbon that was shorting to ground. To boot, there were dozens of cheap scotch locks, loose wires, Several grounds just hanging, etc....according to PO supposedly MOT did several electrical items for them under the dash...This along with several other things PO stated MOT did, I have seen all I needed to see about the quality of work by that place. I may have bought our coach there, but if they were straight across the street I would never take my coach there for work.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on June 09, 2024, 11:20:45 pm
Post by: dsd on June 09, 2024, 11:20:45 pm
HA....MOT already fried all of that by drilling a 1/2" hole straight through that ribbon. They installed a BlueOx steering stabilizer for the owner I bought from just a few month prior to our purchase. About 1 month into owning I kept smelling a faint burning on occasion. I finally caught the arcing one night while driving in the dark. Once home, I pulled the entire dash, The push=button for setting the steering stabilizer was the issue, or actually the high voltage lighting Ribbon that was shorting to ground. To boot, there were dozens of cheap scotch locks, loose wires, Several grounds just hanging, etc....according to PO supposedly MOT did several electrical items for them under the dash...This along with several other things PO stated MOT did, I have seen all I needed to see about the quality of work by that place. I may have bought our coach there, but if they were straight across the street I would never take my coach there for work.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: Michelle on June 11, 2024, 09:08:42 pm
Post by: Michelle on June 11, 2024, 09:08:42 pm
An off-topic exchange has been moved to its own topic Let's please stay on topic here - installation of the FASS system. Not opinions on the FASS system.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: TGordon on June 12, 2024, 05:56:49 pm
Post by: TGordon on June 12, 2024, 05:56:49 pm
Mine runs through the cooler in front of the cac then back to the tank, can't find any info on this online
Thanks
Mike
Tim
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: craneman on June 12, 2024, 08:44:35 pm
Post by: craneman on June 12, 2024, 08:44:35 pm
If it can be done running the fuel from the cooler to the ECM then to the tank would extend the life of the ECM.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on June 22, 2024, 06:52:45 pm
Post by: dsd on June 22, 2024, 06:52:45 pm
One thing I need to input at this point now that different engines have come up. Scott (dsd) and myself have found out that sometime during the engine upgrades they changed the routing of the fuel flow. To expand on this our '97 M-11 and several others that I am aware of the fuel comes from the fuel tank, through the primary filter, to the ECM cooler, then to the 2ndary fuel filter, and on to the engine fuel pump. All unused fuel is returned to the tank, some coaches straight to the tank and some went through a cooler mounted in front of the CAC.
Scott has found (he can expand if I am mistaken) some coaches the return fuel to the tank goes through the ECM cooler after it passes through a cooler that is mounted in front of the CAC.
So to be sure what set up you have you will need to do some snooping around on your exact coach.
Mike
FASS INDUSTRIAL SERIES, DIESEL FUEL SYSTEM, CLASS 8, SEMI, 165GPH, (16-18... (https://fassride.com/shop/product/shop-category/universal-industrial-series/fass-ind165g-industrial-series-diesel-fuel-system-class-8-semi-165gph-universal-ind165g/?utm_source=Google%20Shopping&utm_campaign=FASS%20Google%20Merchant&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=279920&srsltid=AfmBOory658c5vKzzziIIFyb9pXJa15kD-_svHdUZ0Wqp9MccaonJTc2YZ4)
Using the 165IND which the small line to the OUTLET of the ECM cooling plate to the Factory fuel cooler. The amount of fuel returned through the small line isn't a lot and I couldn't justify installing prior to the ECM plate. It does spit with air as it is exhausted. Will be curious as the amount of fuel returned to the tank. Currently my tank is over fuel and I dont dare remove fuel caps. I will check next week for a visual indication of fuel returned. One thing I did notice is that my last start a week after the install reminded me of my Honda DelSol. It has never started so quickly. I swear it fired on the first compression stroke. Generally takes two revolutions to start. Hum something is different. Currently no pressure indications but will follow up with that next month.
Title: Re: FASS Fuel System Install
Post by: dsd on July 06, 2024, 12:48:43 pm
Post by: dsd on July 06, 2024, 12:48:43 pm
So I did install and it worked perfect. Used the existing power from the prior WINN system without issue. It's only used for control power, not the pump. Also noticed that the coach seamed to start better/faster. Anyhow we took of on our North Carolina trip with little concern about it. After we parked at my daughter's house the next day I noticed a new oil leak under the coach. I actively saw a drip from the slobber tube. It in the past leaves about a nickel size spot. This was about 8 square feet. Upon closer examination I could smell fuel. I was so disgusted with every thing I just walked away. It was too close to their house to check the oil level to find it was full of full any way. Next morning pulled coach up a foot and opened engine compartment . Checked oil level as exactly were it was when we left Boulder City. At this point I was able to see that the fuel filter drain on the injection pump was leaking. I may be the only person to have this happen to. Twice. Anyway I forcibly closed the drain with plyers and the leak stopped. Pressurized with the FASS with no issues. I spent the entire prior night thinking I had a seal fail in the injection pump and was already sourcing one. Litterly went from 5k$ issue to free. The drain and the slobber tube are only about four inches apart, but I'm confident I saw the drip from the slobber tube. It rained last night and my forever oil stain that was actually fuel was washed away. Yes owning and operating large equipment can be a stress filled experience. I'm confident as we use the coach more and get more issues worked out it will become better. I had also called FASS to find out if there system could be operated with the pump off. They called me back promptly and said that it was a pass thru system. Would not effect operation being it is pass thru.