Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Moby on April 01, 2024, 05:59:59 pm
Title: It never ends....
Post by: Moby on April 01, 2024, 05:59:59 pm
On this trip: New Generator New fuel shut off solonoid New water heater control board New water pump New front AC
We RV why?
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: craneman on April 01, 2024, 06:32:38 pm
Because owning a boat is too expensive.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: turbojack on April 01, 2024, 06:33:10 pm
What else would keep you busy?
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 01, 2024, 08:12:42 pm
Its completely unfair is what it is. Spend all your money buying new parts for a motorhome, why can't we do the same for ourselves? But no, every time I try to order an upgrade on my 1951 liver on find it parts shows not in stock.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: turbojack on April 01, 2024, 08:40:49 pm
The best bumper sticker that 80+ year old Captain Rice had on his new Prevost coach was "If any is left, I miscalculated."
Another one I saw on a new Newmar coach "This Coach was bought with my kids inheritance."
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Dakota Slim on April 01, 2024, 11:00:43 pm
Knock on wood. In 9 years I've had to replace the Onan's starter. the water pump and the microwave.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: turbojack on April 01, 2024, 11:19:19 pm
Knock on wood. In 9 years I've had to replace the Onan's starter. the water pump and the microwave.
I am going to make sure my wife does not see this post. She keeps reminding me that the 1997 U295 I owned for 19 years never had a problem the whole time we owned it. I was way younger then and did almost all of the repairs myself.
Not sure if was a good thing, but the other day she said maybe we need to start looking for a newer coach where we won't have so many problems.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: rusczyk56 on April 02, 2024, 09:14:19 am
Newer is not any promise of more reliable. Don't care who the builder is (except the Prevost converters and maybe Newell), they are all junk if you look at the details (i know I will draw heat but how close have you looked at new FTs?).
The last 3 years at Tampa I have looked very closely at every FT on the floor. Sexy, yes, exceptional quality, no. Just look at the side walls, 1.7m and wavy walls, I think not. Heck, my 2002 sidewalls are like glass compared to what I saw. The new FT Super C prototype had a total "junk" slide mechanism. It was built on the cheaper (by only a few k) Freightliner chassis, not the MV2. This is not the way to do "high quality" for a perceived premium coach.
Another interesting point to notice is the very quick depreciation of all non-Prevost units. How about 2 y/o FT Presidentials for less than $800k, 1 y/o King Aires for well under $1m....and all appear to be dropping...quick. Lots of Covid toys for sale, but also for sale due to chronic issues and very little ability to get quality support. Yes, I will admit, too many covid campers bought in over there heads and/or by emotions, but 50%+ depreciation in less than 2 years for a premium coach, it's not all the economy.
Poorly built, too much tech, systems dependent on limited support resources ( can you say HWH), inability to promptly obtain parts... and a whole lot more.
RVing at any level is a challenge. I tell potential newbies "any trip without an incident is like winning the lottery". RVs are a complete act of trying to defy the natural order..."a house on wheels?". To quote a well know motorhome retailer, "You have got to own the motorhome, not let the motorhome own you".
Quality is an issue, service and parts access is an issue, the industry is completely unregulated and lemon laws for RVs are very weak in all but a few states. And as a final comment....cheap cars have monumentally better warranties than $1.5m coaches.... All food for thought. But we all do this for the joy and experiences RVing affords us.
Flame suit on, fire hose charged!
Her ends the rant...
Bob
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: dsd on April 02, 2024, 10:11:17 am
I calculated 16% loss every year since it was new. My coach is still loosing probably 16% but being so little value left after all these years it doesnt matter much now. Certainly didn't purchase as an investment. Ours does return a good recreational value though for investment for us.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: pthurman48 on April 02, 2024, 11:30:50 am
On this trip: New Generator New fuel shut off solonoid New water heater control board New water pump New front AC
We RV why?
I hear what you are saying, but I am running on the OEM: Generator(propane onan) fuel shut off solonoid both ACs, all the other I have replaced also plus a lot of other stuff. Mine is a '95 U240 with 228k miles and I love it. I paid 44k for it in 07 with 80k miles, I have spent 20k+ on it since 07, a lot of stuff was my fault(10k burnt up Cat 3116). Everything you use/or not will break/wear out) at some point. Keep it maintained, when it breaks, fix it, don't wait and at the end of the road you will have more than if you just drove it. Have FUN on the road.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Jeff & Sandy on April 02, 2024, 02:02:38 pm
The only way to get your money out of these coaches is to use the heck out of them. Keep enjoying it until you can't/don't.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Protech Racing on April 02, 2024, 03:04:34 pm
I paid 8000$ for mine and drove it home. After spending $20-30k on improvements , I fully expect to get at least $8000 when I sell it.
The bus has towed race cars all over the east coast and lots of Canada . 40K trouble free miles. I have no complaints. With the bus or life in general .
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Dakota Slim on April 02, 2024, 06:02:41 pm
Speaking of boats, I have a friend with a 36' sport fishing boat powered by two 3208 Cats. I think his diesel tank is 500 gallons. I stopped by one day and he had a mechanic on site overhauling both his 3208's. There's coach bucks and then there's boat bucks.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on April 02, 2024, 06:10:20 pm
You can bank on the fact that your coach will always suck money out of your bank account. I always watch Andrew Steele's YouTube channel and his reviews of the "top of the heap" Motorhomes. He has been featuring a number of newer Foretravels (Nimbus and the different Realm models). I caught a dealer who he features (Brad at The Motorhome Store) make a passing comment about the newer Foretravels made on the Spartan chassis, He stated that the Foretravels with the original, made by Foretravel chassis were much better than the newer models. The prices on the newer models on the Spartan chassis suffer more on resale. I have thought after viewing the newer models, is that they do not seem to reflect the same value that they once did. I have also read on this forum that the older U320 or Phoenix was a better coach than the newer Nimbus and Realm models). If I were in the market for a newer coach I would not automatically go with a Foretravel. The King Aire and the Cornerstone would probably get my immediate attention. A GOOD Country Coach, with the C15 CAT, and a 10 spd ZF, that is pre-Def would probably be the winner. A Newel would probably be out of my reach. I'm also tired of the all laminate interiors (looks to me like Corporate break rooms, I can't imagine how these will look when the laminate chips and pulls loose or breaks off) and the paint schemes that make the coach look like it belongs in a Circus Parade, or are painted black or very dark colors, all seem to have checking paint problems (on the fiberglass body's). Keep feeding your bank account, "BABY" will always need something, just grin and bare it.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: rusczyk56 on April 02, 2024, 06:18:10 pm
Speaking of boats, I have a friend with a 36' sport fishing boat powered by two 3208 Cats. I think his diesel tank is 500 gallons. I stopped by one day and he had a mechanic on site overhauling both his 3208's. There's coach bucks and then there's boat bucks.
......It's all a matter of magnitude and pain tolerance!.....Coach bucks, boat bucks, "aviation monetary units"....all the same...
Damn the "costs", full speed ahead!
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: rusczyk56 on April 02, 2024, 06:30:01 pm
FTs are now built on Spartan K4 chassis..... They would be better off on the Freightliner... Better service accessibility, more reliable and more. Just ask all the poor big coach on Spartan owner about having their $500k purchases parked for months, even as much as a year while Spartan worked through 7 iterations of "DEF Heads" that kept failing and causing the cursed "start countdown"...
Freightliner (I.E. Daimler/MB) did not have the issues. Funny thing about the chassis builders and emissions compliance is the engine manufacturer is not fully responsible for a compliant aftertreatment system, it's the chassis builder. Thus one of the reasons many of the coach builders were "helped" out of the business (Bluebird, Country Coach and others who built their own box). Even Thor is working at killing the Tiffin Power Glide (in house) chassis and turning to Freightliner....emission compliance can eat you alive....
You can bank on the fact that your coach will always suck money out of your bank account. I always watch Andrew Steele's YouTube channel and his reviews of the "top of the heap" Motorhomes. He has been featuring a number of newer Foretravels (Nimbus and the different Realm models). I caught a dealer who he features (Brad at The Motorhome Store) make a passing comment about the newer Foretravels made on the Freightliner chassis, He stated that the Foretravels with the original, made by Foretravel chassis were much better than the newer models. The prices on the newer models on the Freightliner chassis suffer more on resale. I have thought after viewing the newer models, is that they do not seem to reflect the same value that they once did. I have also read on this forum that the older U320 or Phoenix was a better coach than the newer Nimbus and Realm models). If I were in the market for a newer coach I would not automatically go with a Foretravel. The King Aire and the Cornerstone would probably get my immediate attention. A GOOD Country Coach, with the C15 CAT, and a 10 spd ZF, that is pre-Def would probably be the winner. A Newel would probably be out of my reach. I'm also tired of the all laminate interiors (looks to me like Corporate break rooms, I can't imagine how these will look when the laminate chips and pulls loose or breaks off) and the paint schemes that make the coach look like it belongs in a Circus Parade, or are painted black or very dark colors, all seem to have checking paint problems (on the fiberglass body's). Keep feeding your bank account, "BABY" will always need something, just grin and bare it.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Moby on April 02, 2024, 07:30:22 pm
......It's all a matter of magnitude and pain tolerance!.....Coach bucks, boat bucks, "aviation monetary units"....all the same...
Damn the "costs", full speed ahead!
Oh. I agree. Went coast to coast this year, kicked off some bucket list things abs generally had a good time. Ain't planning on stopping.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: erniee on April 03, 2024, 09:10:11 am
Well-on our trip to kerrville- car had some mechanical issues, had to be towed and left at dealer Samsung- 3 year old refer quit 2 new Toyo tires on the front. Thank God for friends.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: turbojack on April 03, 2024, 09:58:43 am
I tell potential newbies "any trip without an incident is like winning the lottery". Bob
I am going to have to add this to my list. The only other one is a friend that use to buy a new Fortravel every few years said. "That his coaches stay up at night trying to figure out what it is going to be broken in the morning."
As to the comment about them not being built as good as they use to, is 100% correct. If you look at the build of my 2014 IH is nothing like the Realm Presidential. They have more bells and whistles then mine but the builds are not as good. Such as no outside air bags, no real wood, and the list goes on.
At the last Grandvention when Lyle was taking questions I had asked if they would build a new IH45. His answer was NO. He just saved me a lot of money saying that.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Geodmann on April 03, 2024, 12:05:47 pm
Turbojack, I'm curious about the chassis of the IH-45. Is it substantially like the U-series coaches with heavy subframes at the front and rear connected to a light tube steel basement structure comprised of bulkhead partitions and a narrow trussed raceway down the "spine" with all the mechanicals run within that raceway? I've never seen an IH-45 in person. If it is like the U-series, is it still susceptible to the "bulkhead problem" which is really just a fancy way of saying; rusted out steel tubing in the floor framing. I've never heard or seen mention of an IH-45 with a bulkhead problem.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Elliott on April 03, 2024, 12:23:45 pm
We are back on our boat kick again. Really want something for cruising the Caribbean. Going to start work on boating certifications this winter I think. Lord help me.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: turbojack on April 03, 2024, 01:13:06 pm
Turbojack, I'm curious about the chassis of the IH-45. Is it substantially like the U-series coaches with heavy subframes at the front and rear connected to a light tube steel basement structure comprised of bulkhead partitions and a narrow trussed raceway down the "spine" with all the mechanicals run within that raceway? I've never seen an IH-45 in person. If it is like the U-series, is it still susceptible to the "bulkhead problem" which is really just a fancy way of saying; rusted out steel tubing in the floor framing. I've never heard or seen mention of an IH-45 with a bulkhead problem.
The IH45 has what is called Travelride III. Up until 2018 it was build by Foretravel and in 2018 They gave their drawing to Spartan and Spartan started building the Travelride III. You can tell the difference by looking in the front fender well at the frame. If you see the frame bolted together it is a Spartan, if welded, it was made in house by FOT.
The frame is not like the U-series coaches. It has a square box beam, like the Spartan K4 but has 4 air bags on the drive axle located outboard where the K4 has only 2 inboard.
Here is a link of what the K4 looks like which is almost what the IH has. I was given pictures of Foretravel making their very last chassis in 2018. I have no idea where I have them and will look and see if I can find them.
FTs are now built on Spartan K4 chassis..... They would be better off on the Freightliner... Better service accessibility, more reliable and more. Just ask all the poor big coach on Spartan owner about having their $500k purchases parked for months, even as much as a year while Spartan worked through 7 iterations of "DEF Heads" that kept failing and causing the cursed "start countdown"...
Freightliner (I.E. Daimler/MB) did not have the issues. Funny thing about the chassis builders and emissions compliance is the engine manufacturer is not fully responsible for a compliant aftertreatment system, it's the chassis builder. Thus one of the reasons many of the coach builders were "helped" out of the business (Bluebird, Country Coach and others who built their own box). Even Thor is working at killing the Tiffin Power Glide (in house) chassis and turning to Freightliner....emission compliance can eat you alive....
Of interesting to note along these lines - I noticed a couple of discussions on iRV2 mentioning that Spartan did not have a 50-state-compliant K2 motorhome chassis (not sure about the larger ones) for 2025. K2 has the Cummins ISL9. K3 and above have an X12 or X15. Realm FS450 is on the K2.
Last month Entegra announced they were making Freightliner an option for the Cornerstone. Entegra has always been Spartan-only for their DPs.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Bob & Sue on April 03, 2024, 02:30:58 pm
On this trip: New Generator New fuel shut off solonoid New water heater control board New water pump New front AC
We RV why?
(We RV why ?)
Moby. Realize that some if not most of those items will not need replaced again ( on your watch). I have no choice, my DW is very much in love with being able to monitor our clean bedding ( hotel bed bugs) purchase and use organic foods ( costly dining out) and the BIG one , abusing the opportunity to use the bathroom immediately while traveling or making a sandwich or drinks.
So... still cheaper and more convenient than a motel. Been there, done that. Hard pass.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Moby on April 03, 2024, 06:51:25 pm
Bob & Sue, Oh we very much agree with you (and others) in your sentiments, and I acknowledge the "if you ain't polishing you're fixing" - said as my grandson is polishing the duels right now - and both conditions are in effect through this trip. Sometimes you just need friends to tell you that you're doing the right things. Thanks to all of you for listening to me cry about life a little. No, we're not gonna sell Alice.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Moby on April 03, 2024, 07:11:43 pm
Speaking of polishing.....
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on April 04, 2024, 12:36:12 pm
Had to laugh about someone mentioning if you didn't have a breakdown you won the lottery or something like that. On the trip out to quartzite I broke down with a oil pressure sensor. Not a big deal really it was cheap and easy to fix but when I was on the side of the road and not able to go more than a half mile before the engine would shut down it was a big deal... Live and learn right? On the right back from Quartzsite oh that was a ride from hell and I definitely did not win the lottery. First had the issue with the ride height sensor and burn some rubber on I-10. The day later going through portales New Mexico after hitting one of their famous bumps in the road, my hitch extension weld broke and the jeep was left in the dust. Fortunately I was only doing less than 20 miles an hour on a busy street in town and while there was damage to both the motorhome and the Jeep it wasn't major. I don't even want to tell you what happened when I made several turns to get back so I could recover the Jeep and my bikes that were sitting in the road... Fortunately I have insurance but I feel really stupid about the whole thing. Couldn't do anything about the hitch weld breaking and I couldn't really do anything about the piece of rubber that broke off the ride height sensor, although some people might say yeah you should have replaced them the year before.. to which I say yeah hindsight is always 20/20. I've had a wild ride since 2018 with this coach I love it I love the way I live and everything about it. But it's seriously for sale and I'm seriously moving overseas to Thailand when it does sell. Right now I'm sitting at the Red Barn RV park north of Nacogdoches waiting for xtreme to have a slot open. I have a great coach but it needs stuff. Stuff that I no longer can do or want to do. My generator is leaking oil. It needs new gaskets. In Mexico I can get that done cheap but I'm not in Mexico. Nor did I want to go back there this year. My refrigerator is having issues and I can't seem to get the company to call me back. I would like to offer the new owner the information needed to either repair or replace the box but without somebody who knows what they're talking about calling me back it's kind of difficult. Still I wouldn't have traded this lifestyle in the last 4 years for anything. Chief and I had a blast. I'm ready for something new though.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: craneman on April 04, 2024, 02:33:15 pm
Bob can yo post a picture of the extension that the weld broke on?
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: oldguy on April 04, 2024, 05:07:57 pm
I have to agree with not having an issue is like winning the lottery. I'm lucky that I can fix most things other wise I would have been towed a few times.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Moby on April 04, 2024, 07:38:57 pm
Why do we RV? Here's an example.... Gave my grandson his first driving lesson........ Up Bolivar Peninsula!
Great times.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: tsonby on April 05, 2024, 08:48:46 am
I am going to make sure my wife does not see this post. She keeps reminding me that the 1997 U295 I owned for 19 years never had a problem the whole time we owned it. I was way younger then and did almost all of the repairs myself.
Not sure if was a good thing, but the other day she said maybe we need to start looking for a newer coach where we won't have so many problems.
Sounds very familiar... I get that side-eye look when something needs to be fixed and the comment ... "I don't remember our Bus having all these issues". I remind her our Bus was only 2 years old when we bought it. +9 years when we sold it and starting to show its age more then the IH has.
Probably be a good thing if our wives don't ever start comparing notes over coffee.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Journey, Roam, Explore on April 06, 2024, 05:41:13 pm
Bob can yo post a picture of the extension that the weld broke on?
Sorry Chuck just saw this had to go out and take a picture. This extension was purchased with the coach from the previous owner. I have no idea what the weight rating was on it and I didn't really like using it and haven't used it in several years. But my one up bike rack on the back of the Jeep causes significant drag while in the back of the motorhome it did not and the only way to be able to get the engine door open with the bike rack there was to put the extension on. So I did in Quartzsite before I left. It did not survive the journey. I'm grateful that I have good insurance but it should not have happened. In addition to that breaking the bottom of the coach must have connected with the ground because the coolant pipe from the radiator into the engine compressed causing damage to the sleeve that they use to connect them metal to rubber. When it compressed it caused a hole to pop into it and then the pressure caused the hole to expand a little bit I lost probably 4 gallons of coolant and then another six when I pulled the pipe out to replace the sleeve. AutoZone had 2 inch silicone hose for $30 a foot. 6 in of it is what I needed so I have some spare. 10 gallons of coolant and 2 gallons of distilled water later I was back on the road.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: rusczyk56 on April 06, 2024, 06:40:10 pm
As to the issue of a new IH or any other full gound up build, "ain't happenin". The Prevost upfitters buy a full on shell that is a bus.
There are so many issues with building a ground up coach. If you put the drive train together on a bus/box/what have you, you (the MFG) are responsible for the emissions and many other issues....thus Spartan and Freightliner.
Tiffin is a prime example with their Power Glide chassis. Have dropped it from several of their coaches and having Freightliner supply them. It's not like the old days when an engine/trans was dropped on "something" and it was called "good".
Besides the 2009 recession, the changing EPA/aftertreatment environment heavily contributed to CC, BB, Beaver and others to bite the farm.....thus the rise of the chassis builders getting further into the mix.
Truth be told, Freightliner is far ahead of Spartan with support...i.e. Daimler and their expertise with emission control. Do a search on Spartan "DEF Head" issues.... Poor owners were grounded for months.....many months waiting for Spartan to come up with a solution....this was on and off over seven iterations for several years.
Owners also want the safety features that would requirements internal development and/or licensing others systems to be deemed legal and "insurance company happy"....
Again, a lot more to the chassis issue than just a "corporate" decision....
Now back to thinking about my fuel leak.....
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: tsonby on April 06, 2024, 08:27:24 pm
Tiffin is a prime example with their Power Glide chassis. Have dropped it from several of their coaches and having Freightliner supply them. It's not like the old days when an engine/trans was dropped on "something" and it was called "good". ....
I thought Tiffin actually started offering the PowerGlide in more models in the last few years (Phaeton and Zephyr in some models). When I had my 2013, the PG chassis was exclusive the Bus. Looks like the Bus line is still built only on PG. The drawback in my time was the PG couldnt fit the anything beyond the 450 Cummins. I guess they have updated it now if the Zephyr has the option.
It was a best driving chassis I had experienced before my IH. Before there I had Freightliners.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: dsd on April 09, 2024, 11:51:01 am
Sorry Chuck just saw this had to go out and take a picture. This extension was purchased with the coach from the previous owner. I have no idea what the weight rating was on it and I didn't really like using it and haven't used it in several years.
The Complete Guide to Hitch Extenders (https://www.curtmfg.com/hitch-extender-guide#:~:text=As%20a%20general%20rule%2C%20the,reduce%20load%20capacity%20by%2050%25).
Cautionary Considerations for Weight Capacity
One other important factor to consider when shopping for a hitch extender is weight capacity. The manufacturer should provide weight ratings for the extender, including a gross trailer weight capacity and a tongue weight capacity.
Remember, you must always abide by the lowest-rated component in your towing system.
Additionally, it is important to consider the leverage placed on your receiver hitch and vehicle by heavy cargo. As a general rule, the use of extenders (and hitch adapters) can reduce the tongue weight capacity / vertical load capacity of your vehicle's receiver hitch. Extenders under 12" long reduce load capacity by 25%, and extenders over 12" reduce load capacity by 50%. IMO 36 inch extensions reduce the usable load considerably
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: Dakota Slim on May 24, 2024, 06:15:29 pm
Moby, we need an update. You added a starter to this list. Did you get that squared away? Anything else???
Yes. I just got back to the sticks & bricks. There's a long story behind the repairs, let me say I had to fire two incompetents before I got it fixed and running. A VERY long story. But, we're home safe until the next adventure.
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: turbojack on May 24, 2024, 08:41:22 pm
We need the story!!
Title: Re: It never ends....
Post by: TGordon on May 25, 2024, 12:30:35 am