Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: turbojack on September 06, 2024, 09:39:12 am
Title: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: turbojack on September 06, 2024, 09:39:12 am
Brake failure behind RV crash | Local | jhnewsandguide.com (https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/local/brake-failure-behind-rv-crash/article_69a5142a-5b48-11ef-9afa-ef52ce4d7933.html)
First I pray for the family and the driver. I bet the driver is now wishing that they would have known how to go down long down grades in a motorhome.
Not sure if the coach had a retard, jake brake, or engine brake or even if the driver knew the coach had one or how to use it.
I have read many threads on here that go over how to safely going down long grades and will find one to add here.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Elliott on September 06, 2024, 10:36:37 am
What sad news... you don't know what you don't know. That is not a pass to mess around with unless you're an experienced driver and there's a fairly easy bypass to get around it. And it's extremely well marked.
Now that I don't have any, I have found auxiliary braking systems like Jake brakes/retarders, etc.. are unnecessary if you know what you're doing but REALLY nice to have none the less. The U320 was a mindless experience going down steep grades compared to the GV. With just a 4 speed transmission and drum brakes I have to put a lot more thought into my driving in the mountains but have never felt unsafe.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 06, 2024, 11:01:34 am
I drove our ex-Greyhound for many years with only drum brakes. I also never felt unsafe but it did require a bit more planning than the U300. The secondary roads may be quite a bit steeper than the interstates and on all grades, I check the air pressure at the top and select the right gear ahead of time. I also never let traffic behind dictate how fast I head down.
Most of the time, the Jake takes care of keeping the speed down and I keep it switched on all the time. But descending into Jackson, WY was steeper and longer than I thought it was going to be so I pulled off a couple of times to let traffic by and to cool the service brakes. Even then, the brakes smelled at the bottom. As I remember, there were two roads down. I stupidly took the road that said "not recommended for RVs" because it was shorter.
Pierce
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: oldguy on September 06, 2024, 11:05:06 am
Having driven in mountains all my life my rule is brakes are for stopping not for maintaining speed down hills.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: erniee on September 06, 2024, 01:15:21 pm
10% grade- not going that way.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Caflashbob on September 06, 2024, 01:50:39 pm
Big difference to me going down 10% grades in the Rockies was to follow posted advice here to downshift the transmission to maintain a max rpm on the engine at the top of the downgrade. Better engine braking, better trans and retarder cooling noticeably added to feeling more in control.
A few years ago I found an eBay auction on Meritor disk brake rotors. Not steel. Nodular iron. $$$+ noticable stronger brake action. Front only so far. Much higher frictional coefficient it seems. I have no way to know if I have extended the brakes ability to absorb heat but the cold blooded feeling my brakes always had was almost eliminated.
While driving in surface streets I used to regularly warm up the brakes versus rely on the retarder as much.
With the nodular iron front rotors I no longer do that. The much stronger braking action cold eliminated that action.
Lots of money for the rotors. But if you had the budget available you would really like the much stronger braking feel and reserve that may be available.
OREDS need to be used hard to engage the front drums then coast
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Bob & Sue on September 06, 2024, 02:17:16 pm
Years ago going up that thing in our ford diesel towing a 24' TT I remember the DW asking me if we had "another" gear to drop down into. Nope... already in first gear. I've not gone down the thing yet but after going up it I'm thinking in 2nd gear maybe 3rd w/ the retarder. Cause, I'm in no hurry.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Ralph on September 06, 2024, 08:46:08 pm
I crossed Teton Pass from west to east this past Sunday 9/1.....3rd gear with a good deal of combination retarder and brake use will suffice for a "light, non slide U270". I also pulled over a couple of times to let traffic pass, neither were really hot but this let the transmission and brakes cool a bit.
Teton Pass is not for the faint of heart in either direction but common sense and proper use of brakes/tranny/retarder will get you down safely.....oh did I mention, don't get in any hurry.....
Some dude was parked directly in the first runaway truck ramp, I mean he didn't just pull over blocking the ramp, he backed into it several feet!! The second runaway ramp is a cable type....and yep, 60,000lb weight limit was well advertised, no way could anyone not be aware of that.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Olde English on September 06, 2024, 08:54:09 pm
This week we went down west rabbitears pass into steamboat springs and back up today. The old hill climbing rule came into play, go downhill in a lower gear than you went up in.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: kgrover on September 07, 2024, 07:54:13 am
I haven't had to do any really big grades in the GV yet, but the few I have I've used the trans retarder and brakes without issue. I was taught when getting my CDL, that you apply the brakes firmly and drop your speed 10-20 mph and then let the retarder/engine braking work until the speed climbs back up, Then apply the brakes again. This gives the brakes time to cool in between applications. That's if your retarder/engine brake isn't enough to keep your speed where you want it. Riding the brakes for a long time is bad, just builds up heat, but on and off applications give them time to cool off.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 07, 2024, 10:18:04 am
I haven't had to do any really big grades in the GV yet, but the few I have I've used the trans retarder and brakes without issue. I was taught when getting my CDL, that you apply the brakes firmly and drop your speed 10-20 mph and then let the retarder/engine braking work until the speed climbs back up, Then apply the brakes again. This gives the brakes time to cool in between applications. That's if your retarder/engine brake isn't enough to keep your speed where you want it. Riding the brakes for a long time is bad, just builds up heat, but on and off applications give them time to cool off.
We had a couple of fire trucks that were automatic and had retarders. On extended grades, the retarder may overheat and the warning light come on. This is because the ATF is overheating and continued use may cook some seals. It's the secondary roads that can sneak up on you length wise. Seeing the light come on when you are in a hurry with 1000 gallons of water right behind you can cause a couple of anxious moments.
If our Jake can't keep the speed reasonable, then I do exactly as you describe in your first sentence.
Pierce
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Geodmann on September 07, 2024, 10:41:25 am
So I recently had some experience navigating steep long grades on i70 in Colorado summiting Veil pass and the Eisenhower tunnel and I got to wondering, if you gear down and your running near max rpm's is there a risk that gravity will cause you to gain speed and risk pushing the engine over it's red line? I know the obvious answer is to use the brakes to prevent that but there can be a lot going on fighting for your attention, especially on a 3 lane interstate with heavy traffic and you can easily lose track of your speed for a few moments. I tow a trailer with a Jeep on it and I scaled in at 45k lbs. combined which can pick up speed in a hurry going down hill.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: kgrover on September 07, 2024, 10:57:15 am
The transmission. May force an upshift to the next gear to save the engine, but I have no idea if the allison is programmed for that or not.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: oldguy on September 07, 2024, 11:13:21 am
Find a gear that will hold your speed with your retarder on second notch and RPM between 1800 2000 go slow. I drove the Gaspe Peninsula which had a lot of 15percent grades and finished with a 17 percent grade. I had a Monaco Dynasty and I would put it in 1st gear and with the exhaust brakes that would hold the coach without using the brakes. Nice and safe and relaxing.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Caflashbob on September 07, 2024, 12:06:14 pm
On the other side of this conversation when i was testing my coach i went down the grapevine in Southern California from Lebec to grapevine and the normal 55 mph speed limit at 35,000 pound combined. Added the amount of retarder needed to maintain that speed. 3 then 4th position and 5th and watched the trans temp slowly rise. At the very bottom of the grade the red warning light came on. Trans temp 250 or so. Turned off retarder as the highway was barely down hill now. Within 2 miles the red light went off. I had the wheel brakes as a reserve. Wanted to see how and if the system was working. I have had the trans get to 238 or so several times with downshifting and using lower gearing and speeds which i then use the wheeel brakes. Noticeably stronger brakes with the addition of grey iron front rotors
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 07, 2024, 01:59:24 pm
So I recently had some experience navigating steep long grades on i70 in Colorado summiting Veil pass and the Eisenhower tunnel and I got to wondering, if you gear down and your running near max rpm's is there a risk that gravity will cause you to gain speed and risk pushing the engine over it's red line? I know the obvious answer is to use the brakes to prevent that but there can be a lot going on fighting for your attention, especially on a 3 lane interstate with heavy traffic and you can easily lose track of your speed for a few moments. I tow a trailer with a Jeep on it and I scaled in at 45k lbs. combined which can pick up speed in a hurry going down hill.
Pick a lower gear and get in the slow lane is the best way. Then you can relax all the way down.
Pierce
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Rich Bowman on September 07, 2024, 05:09:02 pm
Goodman - Here's a short previous thread that may tell you what happens when the engine hits redline.
Check engine light - high fuel pressure (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=48087.0)
I have not tried to duplicate the experience and it has not happened again.
Rich
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Herb Stark on September 07, 2024, 06:40:22 pm
This week we went down west rabbitears pass into steamboat springs and back up today. The old hill climbing rule came into play, go downhill in a lower gear than you went up in.
YEP!!
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: "Irish" on September 18, 2024, 12:50:00 pm
Reading these posts makes me long for the days I had a Jake Brake, yes it was noisy but it worked so much better than the retarders fitted to our coaches. No over heating no matter how long the downhill drive. With the Jake I only used the brakes as my final stop at a stop sign, the Jake did all the major work to reduce the speed and momentum. The retarder is a nice extra, but it's no Jake!
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: oldguy on September 18, 2024, 04:40:58 pm
I have both and in mountain driving I love the Jake and in town I use the retarder. If I find I'm in too high a gear with Jake I will use the retarder to get me into a lower gear. Sometimes I don't want shift down and the Jake won't quite hold the speed I will use the first notch with the retarder.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: dsd on September 18, 2024, 11:04:01 pm
I have both and in mountain driving I love the Jake and in town I use the retarder. If I find I'm in too high a gear with Jake I will use the retarder to get me into a lower gear. Sometimes I don't want shift down and the Jake won't quite hold the speed I will use the first notch with the retarder.
Show boating. I hope one day to have an operational Jake on my coach. Talk about brake envy. You never can have too much stopping capability and more options is great. IMO.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Geodmann on September 19, 2024, 06:16:26 am
I have both and in mountain driving I love the Jake and in town I use the retarder.
How did you wind up with both? Did you add the jake or did a previous owner?
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Pamela & Mike on September 19, 2024, 07:10:35 am
George,
Not Perter but he DIY the job. Here is a link to the thread what will help you out. Adding a Jake brake (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=39803.0)
Mike
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Carol Savournin on September 19, 2024, 09:07:21 am
I haven't had to do any really big grades in the GV yet, but the few I have I've used the trans retarder and brakes without issue. I was taught when getting my CDL, that you apply the brakes firmly and drop your speed 10-20 mph and then let the retarder/engine braking work until the speed climbs back up, Then apply the brakes again. This gives the brakes time to cool in between applications. That's if your retarder/engine brake isn't enough to keep your speed where you want it. Riding the brakes for a long time is bad, just builds up heat, but on and off applications give them time to cool off.
This was our procedure in our '95 and our '02 coaches. I watched the Silverleaf and monitored temps while heading up and down the more acute grades . We never had an issue with getting too hot while the brakes and retarder worked in tandem. On our '93 there was a Jake brake. It almost never worked properly. Finally, at a balloon rally in Albuquerque, we had a skinny little tech look at the issue. He managed to find a broken wire somewhere in a ridiculous place and we were in business. (He said that you always need one skinny guy on the crew.) I have to say that we much preferred the retarder. Heading to Leadville, CO to see our son, I watched a truck with its brakes on FIRE because of poor grade management by the driver. This was somewhere in the Eisenhower Tunnel area. Costly and dangerous!
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Caflashbob on September 19, 2024, 04:40:46 pm
Not sure about the coach brakes total ability to absorb and/or to dissipate braking energy input to the rotor but I did replace the front two steel oem rotors with ductile iron Meritor rotors. Way stronger braking action. Much higher coefficient of friction it seems. The steel rotors were on my coach with 130/110? D2 valve setting were too cold blooded in my opinion. Versus rely on the retarder when cold I used to regularly apply the brakes repeatedly to warm them up when in-town driving to give me a stronger response. Did not do this on higher speed more open roads.
On an early trip after buying the coach I had a fedex van panic stop 200 yards in front of me towing to avoid missing a left turn for him. Total panic stop. The pre warmed up brakes along with a full application of the retarder narrowly avoided a crash.
The grey iron(ductile) is so much more aggressive cold that I decreased the retarder use in town as the brakes now stop like the steel rotors did with a 2 click retrader input.
Much more confident feeling to me.
The ductile rotors may or may not have increased the brakes capacity as I stated but the stronger action cold has eliminated my application of the brakes regularly while driving just to increase their response level.
I tried softer pads. I tried aftermarket pads to increase the brakes cold action.
Ah the rotors fixed it. Fronts only were enough for me.
Anyone else noticed my braking issue? Total system rebuilt twice. Then the rotors. Correct clay based grease. Rebuilt the calipers pad pin holes as they were worn larger. Experienced Cummins dealer shop that does the local fire engines and military base work.
My understanding is that a m11 Jake is about 40% of the retarders retardation if the retarder is fully on.
My coach will retain its cruise control operation when the retarder engages. On and off cruise still on.
Handy speed reminder in heavy enforcement areas as non visible downgrades do cause the coach to pass the selected mph. Tug at the coach then off.
I understand the brake lights do come on when the retarder is being used.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 20, 2024, 12:54:58 am
Speaking of Jakes and retarders, how many know that Clessie Cummins was not only the founder of the Cummins Engine Co. but also invented the Jake brake? He also had 33 other patents.
Pierce
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: fourdayoff on September 20, 2024, 12:54:07 pm
Has anyone here or heard of electric trailer brakes getting burnt up because of the retarder activating the brake lights? This was a concern of mine so I disconnected that feature. I just felt I didn't want to be replacing trailer brakes due to retarder activation. But towing a 9,000 lb trailer would seem to contribute to the retarder temps going up. I'm now thinking replacing trailer brakes should not be a concern over retarder temps. Steep grades can be very stressful. I have used a few different techniques to keep speed down and have learned to just go slow. The Allison trans won't up shift under deceleration so overrev is a concern. All these mechanical systems have the possibilities of failure so these situations have my utmost attention. Jim.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Barry & Cindy on September 20, 2024, 04:46:14 pm
Some have wired a dash toggle switch that optionally prevents retard from turn on brake lights. Additional advantage is cruise control does not turn off on slight highway dips when joy stick is not in off position.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Peter on September 20, 2024, 05:18:24 pm
Does anyone have info/diagrams on the toggle used and how it was wired to optionally cut out the brake light for the retarder?
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Geodmann on September 20, 2024, 05:42:08 pm
I use an adjustable inertia based brake controller as i assume most do. Braking is braking so even if it's the retarder, you're trying to decelerate so some level of trailer braking is appropriate. The trick is how to set it. With a pickup truck (or any typical tow vehicle) the recommendation is to get up to about 30mph and manually apply the trailer brakes only and set them so they are just on the verge of lock up. Of course that is easier said than done with the coach since i can't really see the trailer wheels. In any case i generally set them on the lighter side and figure any braking assist is helpful. I do want them to engage with the retarder and if i find them running too hot i will simply dial them back a little bit.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: red tractor on September 20, 2024, 07:44:30 pm
To Fourdayoff, I install diodes to keep the retarder from activating the trailer brake controller. Or you can install a separate brake light switch that only does the trailer brake controller.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: oldguy on September 20, 2024, 09:02:50 pm
I put in separate air switch for the trailer controller so the trailer brakes only come on with the coach brakes.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: dsd on September 20, 2024, 11:10:31 pm
To Fourdayoff, I install diodes to keep the retarder from activating the trailer brake controller. Or you can install a separate brake light switch that only does the trailer brake controller.
That's what I did. Retarder never operates trailer brakes. Stepping on the brake peddle operated trailer brakes. On my coach retarder and brakes both operate cooling fans on hi also. Additional parasite loads do add up and again more is better
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: fourdayoff on September 21, 2024, 10:43:23 am
That's what I did. Retarder never operates trailer brakes. Stepping on the brake peddle operated trailer brakes. On my coach retarder and brakes both operate cooling fans on hi also. Additional parasite loads do add up and again more is better
Scott, this is what I have and I'm wondering if the extra 9,000 lbs pushing on the coach contributes to higher retarder temps. Maybe replacing trailer brakes would be better. Jim.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: oldguy on September 21, 2024, 11:10:43 am
I would think a lower gear would be better as on a long hill you could completely toast your trailer brakes.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: wolfe10 on September 21, 2024, 11:15:25 am
I would think a lower gear would be better as on a long hill you could completely toast your trailer brakes.
Peter, this was my thought in disconnecting the retarder activating the brake lights but am I now causing more retarder heat? Also I've had complaints from WS6 Keith following me about running up on me with no brake lights while slowing with just retarder. 2 issues I'm contemplating. Jim.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Barry & Cindy on September 21, 2024, 01:31:13 pm
Check these out to keep retarder from turning on brake lights sometimes. Let us know if you need more info: ----------- Add a dash switch on the wire from main retard-relay mounted on dash 12v breaker panel in front of copilot chair to retard brake light relay. Or add the switch on this retard brake light relay's wire to air brake switches. Our coach is different, as the air brake switches and retard brake light relay are mounted on front panel in street-side front compartment. Switch is VERY handy to keep cruise control from turning off on highway dips when retard joystick is not in off position. Dip causes throttle to move to idle position allowing retard to come on, and at bottom of dip throttle will accelerate coach turning off retard, if cruise control is still active. ------------ We put in a dash switch to optionally not turn brakes lights on when retarder is active. We did it for freeway driving to keep retard from turning off cruise control. If driving on cruise with joy stick not fully off, and the highway goes down even a small hill, the throttle goes to idle position, retard will kick in and when the highway goes level or starts to climb again, we used to unexpectedly find cruise turned off. With the new retard/brake light switch, we can prevent cruise from turning off. Always driving with joy stick off eliminates the need for the switch. On our coach there is a retard brake light relay next to the two (front & rear) air brake pressure switches, all of which are located high up on the front panel of the forward street side bay (just behind the headlights). Running a pair of wires from this retard relay up to dash gave us our option. Some coaches where joy stick was added post-production, the retard brake light relay was not added, so these coaches do not ever turn on brake lights when their retarder is activated. ------------
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: oldguy on September 21, 2024, 05:08:41 pm
I added a air switch by the brake light switches and powered the trailer controller so it works from that switch instead of the brake lights, that way the retarder works separately from the trailer bakes.
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: Caflashbob on September 21, 2024, 07:35:09 pm
Check these out to keep retarder from turning on brake lights sometimes. Let us know if you need more info: ----------- Add a dash switch on the wire from main retard-relay mounted on dash 12v breaker panel in front of copilot chair to retard brake light relay. Or add the switch on this retard brake light relay's wire to air brake switches. Our coach is different, as the air brake switches and retard brake light relay are mounted on front panel in street-side front compartment. Switch is VERY handy to keep cruise control from turning off on highway dips when retard joystick is not in off position. Dip causes throttle to move to idle position allowing retard to come on, and at bottom of dip throttle will accelerate coach turning off retard, if cruise control is still active. ------------ We put in a dash switch to optionally not turn brakes lights on when retarder is active. We did it for freeway driving to keep retard from turning off cruise control. If driving on cruise with joy stick not fully off, and the highway goes down even a small hill, the throttle goes to idle position, retard will kick in and when the highway goes level or starts to climb again, we used to unexpectedly find cruise turned off. With the new retard/brake light switch, we can prevent cruise from turning off. Always driving with joy stick off eliminates the need for the switch. On our coach there is a retard brake light relay next to the two (front & rear) air brake pressure switches, all of which are located high up on the front panel of the forward street side bay (just behind the headlights). Running a pair of wires from this retard relay up to dash gave us our option. Some coaches where joy stick was added post-production, the retard brake light relay was not added, so these coaches do not ever turn on brake lights when their retarder is activated. ------------
Or the relay was disconnected. My Foretravel salesman/friend Roger T. who worked at and then ran the sales at the Foretravel of California store after I left mentioned how this was a popular mod. Seems mine must be disconnected. So maybe my coaches brake lights do not come on when the retarder operates on cruise.
I had following people I thought told me that they did come on. Seems unlikely. I will have to be careful if being followed closely it seems. Lots of good mods to allow the retarder to work on cruise which is one of my favorite things when driving the coach.
A lot of owners here were holding back this info it seems. I casually posted many years ago that that was how mine was setup. Either some read my posts or like thinking of great minds took over or their coaches had had the mods long ago.
Great info as I said. I hope this can be pinned for future info both for the mod and to warn that the brake lights my not be on when on cruise and the retarder operates or does the taillights never operate on retarder cruise on or off?
Title: Re: Time to go over going down steep grades,
Post by: red tractor on September 21, 2024, 08:29:25 pm
Keep it as simple as possible so that it is easy for you.