When I got home form the last trip my left rear fender was pulled out and wheel was was back.
The bulkhead was pulled out. I have now got it aligned and the bulkhead back in place. My plan
is to completely rebuild the bulkhead but this is not the time to do it as the summer would be
better. I'm thinking if I hang three 11/2 tubes under the bulkheads and bolt them in that may make
it so I can ski this winter and fix it when the weather is right for the repair.
What do you mean when you say that the wheel was back? Did the axle change position? That sounds scary.
Are you proposing to support the bulkhead so it can sit until Spring, or a makeshift repair to drive the coach?
Your idea could be reasonable or very scary.
Yes the axle was to the rear. I have been talking to Scott so I'm going out and pull the wheels
so I can get get in there for a better look.
Sorry I didn't take a picture of the wheel back so the first picture is the wheel back where it's suppose to
be. The second picture is the broken weld which has be broken for a long time, so the bulkhead is what
has be holding the wheels in place. The third picture is lining up the old weld. The third picture shows how
the the arms are are held by the bulkheads. The last shows the weld lined up. I will first weld the crack a
little and then remove the cold chisel and let the crack close up and continue welding. Can only weld a
little at a time and then let it cool.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news or come across negatively. You can't weld rust. There are also restrictions as to what can be done for frame welding and repairs. This is not a job for do it yourself. All of that steel needs to be cut out and replaced. Corroision at this level was the primary reason my 2004 Tropi-Cal was junked.
It's not the rust that is the big problem it's the access that is the big problem. I have welded a
lot worst rust than that.
When I hear "bulkhead," I think of the storage bin assembly that fits between the front and rear bulkheads. That seems to be where most of us have bulkhead problems. From your description and the photos, it appears that the part of the frame that holds the axle pivot arms has come loose. I have heard the arms called trailing arms.
That is some thick steel under there, and I would imagine the rust to be WAY short of perforation.
Has anyone else had this problem? Is it a first?
With the right side of axle being moved that much, what do you think of the torquing forces on the left side being another problem?
Think one thing I would consider is sandblasting that whole area and repaint the whole thing,that's one of the worst rusted
spots I have ever seen and while your there bite the bullet and change out all the torque rod bushings,also consider adding
some buttruss plates to beef up the welded areas.
Matt it is the storage area bulkhead that needs to rebuilt. The trailing arms vertical support is attached to
the bulkheads which is rusted away and is welded up top to a plate which runs across the coach to the
left trailing arm support. The weld is broken and it's just service rust. The bulkhead is what has
been doing all the trailing arm support until it let go. Jerre I will be checking the left side also. I read
in the bulkhead repair search that someone had the wheels move because of the bulkheads and I don't
know if they found the broken weld. I searched because Scott told me to look. I will look at ways to beef
up the whole thing.
Lots of good metal to work with there still. It's going to be a really unpleasant job but definitely doable. The folks that think this thing is rusty have clearly never been in the trucks I owned growing up in Minnesota. I had an 86 F150 where the only thing keeping mud from coming up through the floorboard as I was driving was a huge patch a duct tape.
I don't envy your predicament but admire your willingness to tackle this kind of job. It's outside of the wheelhouse for most.
Peter's coach is used in a completely different environment. I would say for most people that it would be at end of life and not repairable. This is a major problem. I know with Peters background this is within his means although it's a huge project. The bulkhead structure, more so the bottom floor is used to triangulate the lower links on the rear suspension. I fear the upper attach point vertical from the link pivot point has failed at the horizontal frame that the engine hangs off of. There is no room behind the vertical box to triangulate creating this problem. I lost sleep worrying about this last night. Once this is repaired the bulkhead and floor will also have to be addressed. Hard to imagine a bulkhead repair being smaller than other needed repaires. I've been down this road seems like too many times and have learned to avoid them. Wish we had a spare coach to swap him into.
Peter looking at those welds they look like they literally were cold and popped off the other structure. This is exactly what I had envisioned. Yes you lost your triangulation but they didn't properly weld leading to this failure. Those tubes are 3/8" thick and if welded correctly would have failed differently.
Yes Scott it wasn't welded properly. The biggest problem is getting at it to weld it properly.
I'm not seeing how the bolting of the tubes under the bulkhead would solve the issue. That's if your bolting them from front bulkhead to rear bulkhead. Otherwise exactly where were these tubes be bolting to.
Isn't the problem more from the rear bulkhead attachment to the rear engine / wheel structure.
Looking at the amount of rust, I wonder if there's enough meat left in the belly iron to bolt to?
Peter's 1st. picture shows a recent curb scrub possibly stressing a poorly executed weld that gave into the forces.
Grind out the existing weld and go in with an 1/8inch 7018 rod and turn up the heat, nice thing about a stick weld is that you push and poke the weld pool.
IMHO
7018 is a great rod. 223 would also be a great rod and is a little easier to use and doesn't share the oven storage requirements. I does cost more but he wont be buying a pallet of it either. Cutting out the old weld and prep for reworking will be difficult at best. Left side is even busier with the waist storage tube. Also mentioned will be the slower pace required to keep the entire structure realistically cool. Weld, wait, weld. Letting it cool to touch. Too much other structure that wont handle the heat and could cook off. Not a fun project at all. Very interesting from the back seat though. 8)
The rectangular tubes would run front to back and I would weld 3/8 x 2 flat iron on the end
of the tubes and bolt them into the 3/8 thick angle iron by drilling and tapping the wholes.
This is only a temporary repair. I would do a proper job next summer and rebuild the bulkhead.
7018 rod needing an oven is nonsense, as soon as you strike an arc the rod dries out immediately, in the 40 years that I welded I never used an oven. They're low hydrogen, never understood what that meant however I've used 7018 for years off the back of my welding truck with my old reliable Lincoln SA 200 pipeline special.
I just got off the phone with foretravel and they do not have a drawing for the bulkheads. Does anyone
have a bulkhead drawing for 99 36 foretravel.
You talked with James Triana???
No I talked to Brad and he said they lost them in a fire and he said when they have to repair one
the use the old one as a copy.
I'm pretty sure that fire was before your 1999 was built. It's the old coaches that they lost the documentation on.
They should have yours. Try to get ahold of Triana.
It's been almost 20 years since I stopped welding so a lot of information has slipped away. I don't know if you can get a grinder up in there safely and then I remembered " gouging rod " for use with a stick welder. You have to turn up the amps a bit offhand I can't remember how much but it's good stuff in tight places. Instead of dragging with a conventional rod you push into the weld and let it drip. Well it's a thought.
Years ago I believe Foretravel had a rear axle problem with a vertical square looking frame piece located about each side of the engine. Foretravel admitted it was not strong enough and some threated lawsuit, so it was reinforced with another steel piece next to it. The height of the frame member was about 2' as I remember.
Barry thanks for mentioning this. Yes there is a additional vertical tube just inboard on both sides. My first thought was that's weird. It's just looks like an extra and not tied in well. Granted I was looking at my own coach with the bags down low. Lots of smart engineers have designed lots of products and they have a reason for there guidance. I can personally say I've never owned a rod oven either. Just tried to buy new for important projects and keep it sealed except when pulling rod out. Above my skill set. Definitely an interesting issue. The poor small welds concern me enough to do a deatailed inspection on my coach next year. Tomorrow is knee replacement Day so I'll be preoccupied with my own issues. Coach has waited 20+ years a couple more non active months wont cause any issues for me.
While searching for more info on this, I came across this topic which has a PDF that somewhat shows the structure (photo from a brochure):
Chassis failure on 1998 U 320 (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=44602.msg451956#msg451956)
This old post by Jon Twork seems to indicate the additional support might have started with the 1997 model year
Frame problems (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=1626.msg5246#msg5246)
I'm on the list to talk to James. Got the wheel off the left side of the coach and the weld is got a short
crack in the trailing arm. I have started to weld on the right side, it is hard to get at.
Just talked to James and he said they don't have any drawings.
I am sure someone posted drawings of the chassis as I remember printing them off. I seem to remember it was a member in California.
Just looked thru names in book but nothing jumped out..
I do not have the coach so cannot look in files.
Johnh
Correction. It was the Roof layout not chassis.
Sorry
John,
I'm like you as I thought that there was some prints on this. The other thing is that I thought there was some pics. of the repair and gussets that were added. My IT person hasn't found this either. It could have been on another Forum that I have been banished from.
Mike
Before, During, After (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16653.0)
Don starts buttoning her up (split from What did you do to your coach) (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17450.0)
Chassis construction photos from Don and welding on your FT (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=14530.25)
Brett,
Those are Don's bulkhead repairs; I believe we're trying to find what Foretravel did as a "soft recall" years ago in terms of added structure in the engine sub-frame area.
Yup, Don did a superb job of documenting bulkhead structure and repair. As much an artist as craftsman.
Michelle,
Yes that is what I am talking about. I know that at least 2 coaches that had those gussets add after failure.
Mike
It's not on that other board under "gussets", "sub frame", "failure" or "welding". Has to be somewhere in the Yahoo Archive.
Searching on "gussets"
Bulkhead repair (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=7699.msg33678#msg33678)
Bulkhead separation (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=9190.msg40674#msg40674)
Searching on "welded"
bulkhead (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8518.msg37519#msg37519)
Frame problems (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=1626.msg5245#msg5245)
I have gotten them welded and got the first gusset welded in. There is another one that will be heavier
below the one in the picture.
Just a wild thought.
If you could remove the bolt and then move the arm out of the way. You'd be able to get to that weld just a little bit better. .... OR. Measure, and the cut the arms the are welded on there, that would open up that area to get a better weld. ? Bad idea?
You'll never get that bolt out without cutting it at both ends,I will bet the metal spacer is rust welded to the bolt and no hammer
will get the bolt out.
More room is always preferred. Do not cut the arms. The drag links IMO would need to have an inner tube to support them if they were cut. They make an induction heater coil to make it possible to heat the nuts to a cherry red to help remove them but the rest of the bolt is going to be ruff to remove. I'm willing to bet Peter's coach has more snow, rain, weather than all our coached combined. That's is its purpose to go skiing. Nice feature with stick welding is you really can reach into tough positions. LOL it's so easy to talk about this with my knee raised up to heal.
The nuts are not the problem,it's the spacer around the bolt.
Yes it would be nice if it was easier to get at but the welds are good. I wish Foretravel had done as
well and then I wouldn't have to do this work. One pass on 3/8 plate is not enough. I'm using
7018 and that holds better than most rods.
Tough spot to get at. Nice weld with that low hydrogen 7018. I might start with some penetrating agent, a little heat, and an air chisel. It will come loose.
Finally figured out how to add another brace. The welding is finished. This afternoon I will add
the bulkhead braces
Thought about the above picture and think you need to consider the pivot point of the torque rod in the picture,if the rest of them
are anything like that one you may have a problem with your suspention going up and down,you've got 20 pivot points like that on your coach and that rust may be impeding them from moving,trying to make you aware of a potential problem.
The first picture is a brace I made to hold the area around the hose opening in place. I did that
a while ago. The other pictures are braces to help hold the bulkhead in place until next summer
when I have the time and the weather to rebuild the bulkhead. The trailing arms look OK but I will
take a look when raising and lowering the coach.
May want to make sure the rear axle doesn't migrate forward or aft when shift into forward or reverse with parking brake released and front tires chocked. You need to see yourself by having someone load the coach up. Brakes will produce much higher loads.
I agree with John44, looks like all the pivot points need serious lube job. Skiing has taken a toll on chassis. I would be really interested to see what the condition of metal is like under spray foam. If water has been getting thru, that too may be an issue as our roads like a lot of highways use the liquid in winter that is a major factor for rust production.
These coach's like all RV's are meant for dry weather.
Johnh
So the Bushings are rubber bonded on a steel tube/bushing. They are pressed into the link arms. They twist during range of movement unless the mount bolts were left undertorqued. Curious what type of external rubber lube you recommend?
That is not what the parts are,replaced all of mine years ago and got the parts from Foretravel,you have the nut and bolt,2
rubber pieces and the metal piece in the middle,they fit together and you do not have to press,that picture is incorrect.
I agree with John as mine are like he is describing except I went with the teflon/nylon bushings. I don't see how that one piece would be able to fit in our arms. Somewhere here on the Forum the OEM part number is listed. After I get finished extracting the last of the honey this afternoon I will see if I can find that old thread.
Mike
The nuts and bolts can be found at Fastenal stores.
The part numbers should be found (somewhere) in one of the threads linked below:
Torque rod bushing replacement (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=34866)
Torque rod bushings (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=28903)
Trailing Arm Service (aka: Torque Tubes) (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=26720)
Thanks for looking up the links Chuck.
First one
Torque rod bushing replacement (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=34866.msg323282#msg323282)
I thought Mike had said before there was two styles. One urethane and I dislike urethane for myself and rubber. I regularly exceed every possibly flex limit, yet NEVER allow the axles to touch the frame rails loading and flexing the coach. The rubber enables torsional flex of the axle which I seek. My coach had all rubber originally and generally they are also quieter than urethane. I do not recommend anyone to operate as I do. Without precautions damage will be the result. I have travel limit switches and use regularly
I will check out my bushings but I don't think they are a problem the coach runs too straight
for they to be a problem.
Last time,the above part is NOT what the original parts are,the parts in my 96 u270 have a rubber shoulder that fits between
the rod and the rod mounting bracket,best place to get the parts is from Foretravel,that part in the picture is used on trailers.
The rubber parts on our coaches do not "twist" with movement,they pivot when the suspension goes up and down,when you
assemble the bolt and the 2 rubber parts with the spacer you coat it with anti-seize,if you look at those previous posts that
are referred to many of them were written by me when I replaced mine.Old Guy,from the looks of yours your coach could use
all new bushings but I would bet money you'll have to cut the bolts in 2 places to disassemble,then it will ride more straighter.
Well last night was the first ride since fixing the trailing arm bracket and everything seems fine. Where the
trailing arm bracket had be broken it has been broken for at least 4 years. There was a sound the have
been hearing for the last 4 years that I never could figure out what is was is now gone. I check out the
trailing arm bushing and they are all fine.