Title: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Michelle on November 03, 2024, 11:33:58 am
Post by: Michelle on November 03, 2024, 11:33:58 am
Does anyone know the CFM rating for the original dash AC condenser fan? Guessing ours is original and looking to be pre-emptive on replacement.
I've seen the posts where a Spal fan was used, but the p/n mentioned (30102049 - high performance curved blade puller) is spec'd at 20.2-21.8 amps (!), 2024 CFM. The 30102120 (high performance straight blade puller) 17.5-19.5 amps, 1918 CFM.
Both of those high performance fans exceed that current rating (and I found installation notes on one site that said the high performance models require a 40 amp breaker.) The OEM breaker for the condenser fan is 15 Amp; I assume the wire to the fan is sized for that current.
I do see two "normal performance" options that might be an option with the existing wiring:
30101516 Medium Profile - 12V Puller- 1604 CFM
Current Input (AMP Draw): 11.0 - 12.9
Height: 16.22" (412mm)
Width: 15.63" (397mm)
Depth: 2.45" (62mm)
and
30100400 Low Profile - 12V Puller- 1298 CFM
Current Input (AMP Draw): 7.5 - 8.5
Height: 16.30" (414mm)
Width: 15.75 (400mm)
Depth: 2.05" (52mm)
Not necessarily looking at Spal, either. Just want to make sure we choose something with at least the same CFM rating as the original setup. We did look for the DCM fan @WS6_Keith got from FOT a few months back Condenser fan (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=48043.msg485801#msg485801), but cannot find any info on that fan p/n nor is it listed in DCM's online (circa 2009) catalog, 840029-NS-1
I've seen the posts where a Spal fan was used, but the p/n mentioned (30102049 - high performance curved blade puller) is spec'd at 20.2-21.8 amps (!), 2024 CFM. The 30102120 (high performance straight blade puller) 17.5-19.5 amps, 1918 CFM.
Both of those high performance fans exceed that current rating (and I found installation notes on one site that said the high performance models require a 40 amp breaker.) The OEM breaker for the condenser fan is 15 Amp; I assume the wire to the fan is sized for that current.
I do see two "normal performance" options that might be an option with the existing wiring:
30101516 Medium Profile - 12V Puller- 1604 CFM
Current Input (AMP Draw): 11.0 - 12.9
Height: 16.22" (412mm)
Width: 15.63" (397mm)
Depth: 2.45" (62mm)
and
30100400 Low Profile - 12V Puller- 1298 CFM
Current Input (AMP Draw): 7.5 - 8.5
Height: 16.30" (414mm)
Width: 15.75 (400mm)
Depth: 2.05" (52mm)
Not necessarily looking at Spal, either. Just want to make sure we choose something with at least the same CFM rating as the original setup. We did look for the DCM fan @WS6_Keith got from FOT a few months back Condenser fan (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=48043.msg485801#msg485801), but cannot find any info on that fan p/n nor is it listed in DCM's online (circa 2009) catalog, 840029-NS-1
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: JohnFitz on November 03, 2024, 08:09:13 pm
Post by: JohnFitz on November 03, 2024, 08:09:13 pm
I have found manufactures CFM ratings for fans to be unreliable to indicate performance when comparing between manufactures. I don't think there's a true standard for testing so manufactures can play games with the testing. I would measure the existing fan amp draw and match with fan size for the replacement.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: kgrover on November 04, 2024, 06:41:29 am
Post by: kgrover on November 04, 2024, 06:41:29 am
You can't have too much flow for that fan. The more flow the better the cooling will be at stopped or slow speeds. It's probably not a bad idea to look at just replacing the breaker too since it might be old and cause problems too. The Spal fans also recommend a way larger fuse than they need for some reason.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Michelle on November 04, 2024, 09:02:29 am
Post by: Michelle on November 04, 2024, 09:02:29 am
You can't have too much flow for that fan. The more flow the better the cooling will be at stopped or slow speeds. It's probably not a bad idea to look at just replacing the breaker too since it might be old and cause problems too.
Agreed on both thoughts, that's why we're trying to determine what the original fan's CFM rating was (so we can be sure to exceed it).
Steve already plans to completely redo the isolator board (where the condenser and fan breakers currently live) and replace all the components on it with new.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Protech Racing on November 04, 2024, 12:52:36 pm
Post by: Protech Racing on November 04, 2024, 12:52:36 pm
The airflow will coincide with running amps. Use any fan set that draws around 25 amps mol.
If yours now work , measure the amps and use similar.
Keep in mind that the old fans require more amp than the new brushless thingies. Try for brushless or a standard cooling package for a cheap car. Imho.
If yours now work , measure the amps and use similar.
Keep in mind that the old fans require more amp than the new brushless thingies. Try for brushless or a standard cooling package for a cheap car. Imho.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Lt403 on November 04, 2024, 08:03:37 pm
Post by: Lt403 on November 04, 2024, 08:03:37 pm
Keith Risch installed a condenser fan for me last year.
Will get under coach tomorrow to see any markings .
Will get under coach tomorrow to see any markings .
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Michelle on November 04, 2024, 09:15:54 pm
Post by: Michelle on November 04, 2024, 09:15:54 pm
Keith Risch installed a condenser fan for me last year.
Will get under coach tomorrow to see any markings .
Thanks!
Last reading we have for ours was 11 amps. I pinged SGM and they gave me a 1060-029 p/n that seems to be proprietary. They didn't share the CFM rating. (and they're pretty proud - read pricey - on that fan)
Have seen some indication it might be a DCM fan. There's no 840029 in the DCM catalog, but there is an 840025 puller that's looks similar and and operates in the 11 amp range. It's a little thinner than our fan, and has a 160 watt motor. There's also an 840025HP that's got a 225 watt motor. Slightly thicker than our fan (by maybe 1/8"), and operates in the 13 amp range. If we changed the breaker to 20 amp that one would likely work (and Steve confirmed the wire gauge looks more than adequate to support a larger breaker.)
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: dsd on November 05, 2024, 12:11:08 am
Post by: dsd on November 05, 2024, 12:11:08 am
Electric condenser fans. I went through this at the start of the summer on the bronco. I actually pulled off 3000CFM fans. Yes two of them and bought the 2000cfm spal fans. They were both lower CFM and higher amperage. I have a stack of 3.5 inch radiator, 1 inch ac condenser, transmission cooler and an engine oil cooler stacked together. The Hi CFM fans flowed less through my stacked coolers than the lower CFM Spal fans that actually moved more air with all the condenser resistance stacked in front of it. I had purchased a cheap hand held airspeed meter that was very helpful to see the changes that were made. Point being that a higher claimed CFM may not actually flow more air on the outlet side of the system. I really am happier with my higher amperage lower CFM SPAL fans. They are worth the extra money IMO.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Michelle on November 05, 2024, 09:24:40 am
Post by: Michelle on November 05, 2024, 09:24:40 am
Electric condenser fans. I went through this at the start of the summer. I actually pulled off 3000CFM fans. Yes two of them and bought the 2000cfm spal fans. They were both lower CFM and higher amperage. I have a stack of 3.5 inch radiator, 1 inch ac condenser, transmission cooler and an engine oil cooler stacked together.
So you converted the hydraulic fans to electric for the cooling package? (like we need another project :D )
This is the dash a/c condenser fan we're looking at.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: turbojack on November 05, 2024, 09:34:52 am
Post by: turbojack on November 05, 2024, 09:34:52 am
This is the dash a/c condenser fan we're looking at.
The AC part in the dash is evaporator. Part outside is condenser.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Michelle on November 05, 2024, 10:09:07 am
Post by: Michelle on November 05, 2024, 10:09:07 am
The AC part in the dash is evaporator. Part outside is condenser.
Yes, the 16" condenser fan in the engine compartment.
ETA - just ordered a Maradyne-HP M166K at less than half the price SGM wanted for the OEM model. Performance curves on the Maradyne, with a 160 watt IP68 motor look a touch better than the DCM 160 and 225 watt non-IP68 motor'd fans.
Maradyne High Performance is part of DCM Manufacturing. The mounting bolt pattern on both the OEM and the M166K appear identical (we shall see and are prepared if they aren't.)
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Geodmann on November 05, 2024, 07:48:50 pm
Post by: Geodmann on November 05, 2024, 07:48:50 pm
So you converted the hydraulic fans to electric for the cooling package? (like we need another project :D )
I think Scott may be referring to the Bronco project.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Lt403 on November 06, 2024, 10:10:16 am
Post by: Lt403 on November 06, 2024, 10:10:16 am
This is all I could get.
The air intake is in the way of getting a good focused pic.
The air intake is in the way of getting a good focused pic.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: dsd on November 06, 2024, 12:55:31 pm
Post by: dsd on November 06, 2024, 12:55:31 pm
Yes the fans on the AC condenser in the rear of the coach. IMO and others will disagree you don't want to change to electric from hydronic on the engine cooling fans. I'm running way more fan power on the bronco and because of this it's always in my thought that if you loose the alternator your parking it. Hence the backup alternator. I does also have other functions as a welder. Its regulated 12v circuit does not have Avalanche diodes to protect from over voltage. It has the capability of running 125 volts DC. I always attempt to keep below about 50 volts when welding electrically separated from the 12 volt system.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: dsd on November 06, 2024, 12:58:02 pm
Post by: dsd on November 06, 2024, 12:58:02 pm
So you converted the hydraulic fans to electric for the cooling package? (like we need another project :D )
No Keep your hydraulic fans
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: wolfe10 on November 06, 2024, 01:45:46 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on November 06, 2024, 01:45:46 pm
Correct, hydraulic fans, not electric.
The exceptions:
Many Foretravels have the A/C condenser up front, where a fan is mandatory.
And, with the condenser in front of the "cooling package" the only need for an electric fan is if the hydraulic fan doesn't run enough on cooler coolant temperatures to insure adequate CFM over the condenser. The only time I run into this is when charging the A/C system. With coach parked and just above idle, I have experienced very high temperatures at the condenser. I use a shop fan to blow air through it. If in the "field", use a hose to cool it.
The exceptions:
Many Foretravels have the A/C condenser up front, where a fan is mandatory.
And, with the condenser in front of the "cooling package" the only need for an electric fan is if the hydraulic fan doesn't run enough on cooler coolant temperatures to insure adequate CFM over the condenser. The only time I run into this is when charging the A/C system. With coach parked and just above idle, I have experienced very high temperatures at the condenser. I use a shop fan to blow air through it. If in the "field", use a hose to cool it.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: dsd on November 06, 2024, 02:09:25 pm
Post by: dsd on November 06, 2024, 02:09:25 pm
Correct, hydraulic fans, not electric.
The exceptions:
Many Foretravels have the A/C condenser up front, where a fan is mandatory.
And, with the condenser in front of the "cooling package" the only need for an electric fan is if the hydraulic fan doesn't run enough on cooler coolant temperatures to insure adequate CFM over the condenser. The only time I run into this is when charging the A/C system. With coach parked and just above idle, I have experienced very high temperatures at the condenser. I use a shop fan to blow air through it. If in the "field", use a hose to cool it.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: wolfe10 on November 06, 2024, 04:59:44 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on November 06, 2024, 04:59:44 pm
Adding water to help extract heat is amazing. Freon pressure will crash to extremely low numbers, but its takes a lot of water if your on the road. Freind of mine has a mister for his ISC engine in his coach. Hard climbs in the summer he will mist with a couple gallons of water and see good results. Windshield washer pump.
Scott,
NO, I only use this when recharging the dash A/C (i.e. parked).
Using a water mister (to be done correctly) would require distilled water. Misting with most tap water would coat the fins with minerals pretty quicklyl.
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: steve on November 09, 2024, 09:46:52 am
Post by: steve on November 09, 2024, 09:46:52 am
As mentioned this is a Maradyne fan / 160 watt / IP68 rated. Updated the breaker to 20amp, the wiring going to the fan is 10ga in our coach, bigger than the fan leads. The published fan curve had a better CFM vs back pressure curve than the OEM fan, mainly due to the larger motor.
At one point in the past the fan had been replaced at FOT. If you look at the old photo you can see they ran into some issues with the screw heads snapping off and/or the fan feet breaking. The SGM 1060-029 does not come with new feet, you have to buy those separately. To work around the fastener and feet issues they used fender washers as clamps in two locations an L bracket in another with the 4th mounting point being abandoned.
Since I was not on the clock, I flush cut out the broken feet/fasteners, pried the speed nuts open and off. Then new hardware and mounted it back like intended. The Maradyne fan comes with feet (as most do) lined up exactly, I was shocked!
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Michelle on November 09, 2024, 09:53:32 am
Post by: Michelle on November 09, 2024, 09:53:32 am
Darn it - I missed a big spot on that support bracket when I was doing the POR-15. Guess I'm putting on my WildeClothes again today ;)
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: rbark on November 09, 2024, 01:14:17 pm
Post by: rbark on November 09, 2024, 01:14:17 pm
I think that fan box needs a little paint also😁
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: steve on November 09, 2024, 01:26:03 pm
Post by: steve on November 09, 2024, 01:26:03 pm
I'll get Michelle right on that :)
Title: Re: OEM Dash AC condenser fan CFM?
Post by: Michelle on November 09, 2024, 01:26:41 pm
Post by: Michelle on November 09, 2024, 01:26:41 pm
I think that fan box needs a little paint also😁
~patina~ ;)