I am starting on the bulkheads and the first thing I'm doing is removing the tanks and the first thing
I need to know is removing the pipes going into the black and grey tanks, do I cut them or is there
away to remove them.
On the coaches that I have removed the tanks once you remove the tapered stand that the tank sets on you will be able to slip/pry the tank down. The drain line is just in a press fit grommet that the pipe is slid into. There isn't but about 2" of pipe down inside the tank.
Mike
Thanks Mike, I wouldn't have thought of that.
Pictures please.
This might be good to read: Black Water Tank Removal (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=32194.msg287245#msg287245)
Before you cut away anything!! Measure from the bulkhead big angle iron that basement is bolted too. Measure forward to where you have good metal. Mark it. These will be your reference points. When you cut the floor loose it can move spread or tighten up. This can be adjusted with bottle jacks in the frame forward and behind the air bags.
I've done it. Look under My basement rebuild. If you'd like to talk about the project p.m me and I'll shoot my phone number
Topic link here My basement rebuild (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37910.0)
Between weather, then cataract surgery I haven't got much done. The screws at the bottom of the door
seal are frozen in. They won't even come out with a impact driver. I keep braking the Philip Bits. This weekend
I will be able to get back on it but then it might rain.
Finally got back to the job and today I got the fuel tank out and the coach jacked up for more clearance
under it.
Pulled the Aqua-hot exhaust pipe off and now it need to take the exhaust elbow off. Any ideas, or is
it a big pipe wrench with lot's of pipe
Peter, stick a long iron pipe into the horizontal nipple and unscrew it
I wonder if any one has ever high centered on that pipe and damaged the AH? Seems like it would be safer with less robust exhaust components.
Yep - Bigdog Aqua-hot mutiny (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=47544.0)
Read to the end of the saga, the pipe and elbow did not cause the problem, rusted out tank did. Evidently the boss that holds the elbow took the hit without compromising the tank.
Thanks for the confirmation Rudy, I just need to pull hard.
8 ft. of pipe and the elbow is out. Thanks Rudy we where getting worried but your information
helped so my son kept pulling.
This picture of the tanks removed took a day to up load onto my lab top so I could send it. I need to drain the
Aqua-hot so I can remove the wet bay heater so I can remove the fresh water tank.
Got everything out except the Aqua-hot. Are there any hold down bolts in the back of the Aqua-hot?
On the ones I have removed, yes there are hold down bolts on the back side.
Got the Aqua-hot out of its cubby hole today. what a horrible job and two of the long bolts were
stripped on the top holes so they wouldn't come out so that lead to more work. For putting it back
in looks even worse. Without the camera I don't know how it is done. My son thinks we should
make passage way from the fuel tank area
Got all the bolts out and just trying to figure out how to get the bulkhead to drop down
onto the jacks.
Wow. Thanks for the pic. I've never seen the filon (?) like that.
How far forward is your bottom rotted out?
Wow Peter. Looks you are making great headway. Keep us poster on the bulkhead descent. Pictures are encouraging for us armchair gawkers :). More interesting than watching a boat ramp.
Michael
You can pretty well tell by how much rust is deposited on the filon.
And, using an awl, you can test the box beams for integrity.
Rust just forward of the rear bulkhead is common, as water from the wet bay as well as water thrown up by the tires rusts it.
Rust just aft of the forward bulkhead is a little less common as no wet bay.
The rust along the sides toward the middle of the coach is a little more surprising.
If it will make your job easier, you should not be afraid to cut an access port through the bay wall. It will not compromise the strength of the wall, as long as you don't cut any steel frame members. You can locate the steel framework within the wall using a magnetic stud finder. Cut carefully around the framework and remove the section of wall material. When you are done with your project, simply glue the section of wall material back in place, or use a readily available access panel cover from Lowes or HD. Example from our coach linked below:
Behind the Water Heater Access Port (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=37421.0)
Thanks Chuck I guess we will go with way. I would like to replace the plastic sheets but I have no
idea where to get them.
As long as the filon is not damaged (or damage is in a small enough area that it could be patched (and waterproof), no reason not to clean up the old filon and reuse it.
Or, last resort, filon sheet material is available from online vendors in up to 8.5' wide by up to 40' long. Examples below:
https://cranecomposites.com/wp-content/uploads/7827.pdf
8.5' Wide Arctic White RV Fiberglass Siding and Roofing - RecPro (https://recpro.com/rv-fiberglass-siding-8-5-wide-arctic-white/?srsltid=AfmBOoqoFceOdKHVUg5AqnrnRSiRXvPJBn8Vp_6FLn7AQGrqsJpRDZTN)
Is the origial belly skin and basement bay walls Filon or custom laid up fiberglass sheets? Filon is 1/16" and designed to be laminated to lauan plywood, i thought the panels were thicker than that.
When properly glued to the box beams (even better if vacuum bagged) filon is a very good, waterproof, light weight product for the application.
Thanks everyone, now I know what it is and how to get it.
Finally got it down, it was a fight all the way. It will pull out easily.
Did you remove the foam insulation that is missing in places or did it melt due to diesel fluid getting to it or ??
It was diesel fuel melt. I wander why they insulated under the diesel tank as most tanks are out
in the weather.
If that were mine, I'd probably just build a new floor rather than repair the old. No question then on how far to go in different spots and wondering if you went far enough. It would all be new. Might even be faster.
What would the best adhesive be for gluing the filon/fiberglass in place and would it be best to glue the filon to the block foam as well? Agreed that vacuum bagging would be best but if one intended to peel back the belly skin and reuse it after doing a partial floor replacement that would be difficult to impossible. Plus the basement floor on a 42' coach is really large!
Dave I'm rebuilding the hole floor.
Yes rebuilding is a pain for sure. So many variables. Seems I recall FT using an odd thickness material seeking to save weight. With the new pour foams available I would fill rather than use block foam. FT failed IMO on all there proactive corrosion prevention, but they didnt seek to have there product live for extended life as we all seek. Easy to be a back seat designer. Building out of aluminum has been done before and would add to the CCC. Subtract from your bank account though. What a big job regardless. Peter I envy your ambition.
I removed the filon/fiberglass today and started cleaning up the rusty surfaces on the coach. That is going
to be a lot of work. I was looking at the old frame and the way they built it looks like it could be built in a
way that would be easier.
Yup definitely a lot of work ..
I'm floored (sorry) at anyone being able to do this, Kudos to you ^.^d Keep up the great work!
On mine (U300) there was no way to repair the steel tube structure. An all new tube matrix was assembled, treated with corrosion proofing and installed, along with all new Filon on the bottom.
Starting to build the new frame. Drilled the bolt holes for the front and rear bulk head tubes.
Welded the nuts to make easier install and started lining up.
For the connection to the bulkheads (i.e. the front and back of the assembly) better to make washers from steel that are as tall as the box beams and a little longer side to side.
This will help spread the tension load to the top and bottom of the box beams. Certainly not required, but a more robust design.
I agree Brett, I was looking for bigger and heavier washers but I couldn't find them easily so I just used what I
could find easily. Got the frame welded all around and Monday I will go out and get more tubing. I'm going to
weld all the joints all around and grind all the top and bottom welds smooth. Foretravel only did the vertical
welds.
Brings back memories. If you haven't already, you might want to look at my writeup to see there's anything useful.
I wouldn't expect anyone to follow what I did as I went to the extreme on details.
Bulkhead Repair (Partial Floor Replacement) (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=31694.msg280564#msg280564)
1 1/2" flat steel cut into 2" or 3" pieces with a hole drilled in the middle would be easy to make and spread the load nicely.
That is exactly what I used for "washers" in the inboard side of the bulkhead box beams. Had a metal fabricator cut the pieces, then I drilled them.
What is the best paint to use on the frame to stop rust.
I've been thinking of urethane foam to cover the bottom where insulation needs to be and looking
for pros and cons.
Not sure I understand.
The foam insulation is BETWEEN the box beam grid. There is no insulation under the box beams, only the FG/filon sheet.
For a paint recommendation, you might look into Flourokem HS100 from Sherwin Williams.
Peter,
Up until the last generation of Vogue motorhome that was built up in Prior, OK they used spray foam and didn't have it covered with filon. One of the engineers told me it was the best for sound, R value, and not trapping water. The down side was damage from road junk being kicked up from the tires.
Mike
That is one heck of an idea, with some small mesh screen covering the foam, would make for an easy repair
Por 15 is my go to paint for the Coach undercarriage.
Mike I have use urethane foam on 2 class C motor homes and there was no wear. I would like
it to cover the frame.
Good call. That was just lazy on there part. I wouldn't be surprised that during the early builds they were closed welded but someone decided it saved money in both welding and flapwheeling smooth afterwards.
I think not welding the joints all around allows water in, which speeds up the deuteriation as it rusts
from inside and outside.
POR-15 is one possibility. There are a number of anti-corrosion coatings available today that will work. Zinc Chromate is a powerful anti-corrosive but difficult to work with due to high toxicity.
I have used both POR-15 and Chassis Saver on several car restoration projects. They work great for stopping rust. 2 things to note.
Must not be any oil/petroleum product on the frame when you paint it. It will not stick. Rust does not matter as long as the loose stuff is off.
Cannot be exposed to direct sunlight. It does not do well in UV. You must put a UV protectant on it if exposed.
And Rust Bullet is another good product as stump said.
Almost got it built. Need to buy one more length of tubing.
Any body have any idea the amount of paint I would need to paint the frame?
I would guess not more than one gallon. What is the overall length of your new frame? Is it the full basement floor frame or just the rear portion? Also what size and wall thickness of tubing did you use?
Thanks George. The tubing is is 11/2 in. so the tubing surface is 6 inches and the same as the angle
iron and I bought 10 pieces at 20 ft. , so it looks like around 100 square feet, so I guess 1 quart should
do it.
I know the POR-15 and Chassis Saver go a long way when applying unless a really rusty rough surface. So I would guess a quart would be more than enough. And applying more than one coat serves no purpose as long as you got coverage.
I tried some 6 Lb. Density Expanding Pour Foam, 2 Part Polyurethane Closed Cell Liquid... (https://a.co/d/7w4Ttbm) on mine and it worked great. I only used it in one square. I was having trouble keeping things warm enough in the winter to get good expansion. but that section is great. It does create a bit of heat, so just be aware if you put the bottom sheet on before you pour the foam. The rest of the area I did the XPS foam boards like they had originally. I ended up putting sheet metal on the bottom instead of the original sheeting and riveting it into the frame. I figure it would add some protection to the underside.
If I had to do it again, I would rivet the sheet on, then pour the foam over everything and maybe use the 2lb foam since the 6lb is pretty dense. It cut easy with a reciprocating saw and sanded great with a belt sander to get a smooth finish.
6 lbs foam is crazy heavy. I used to cut truckloads of 1 lbs foam and always thought 2lbs foam was so heavy. When I was building boats we used pour foam with great results and I really recommend it but there is a learning curve. I really like the closed cell also because of the lower ability to absorb water. little known fact that the polystyrene foam uses water during its expansion and curing and untill all the water has been lost to the environment its still in the foam. Seasoned foam generally will have lowered its water content and is more stable. 1.5 inch thick wont be a issue. I remember cutting fresh foam and having the water sizzle while cutting it with a hot wire. I always preferred ordering 43"x50" 15 foot long foam billets big blocks. This would allow me to square them up . Pour foam with great is wonderful in so many ways
Now would be a great time to plan on putting your cord and hose reels on a shelf and making storage room for Waste Master sewer hose. Eliminate the door and tube.
The top pic is a screenshot of someone else's (Don's maybe?) bay. The bottom pic is mine.
Now you tell me. I figured I would need the 6lb for strength. I had no idea how solid that stuff is once it sets up.
Got it altogether. the next thing is to drill all the mounting bolt holes, which is a big job and then I
need to turn it over and weld the bottom.
Cut off the front off the old frame and put it on top of the new frame set up to drill all the mounting
holes.
The last two pictures are of the rear support bracket. It is badly rusted on the bottom tubing so I will
cut it off and replace.
Have got the replacement tubing in place and all I have to do is weld it tomorrow. I was lucky that
Foretravel only welded the joints so it wasn't to bad to remove the old one.
What are the bolts used in the bulkhead called. Are they tapped or do they self tap and if so what
size hole is used for 5/16th
Rolocks. Self tapping.
But I would sure to back with bolts/nuts since you will have access to the box beams from the bottom before you seal it up.
Said another way, the only reason self tapping bolts were used was that they didn't have access to the box beam area because the FG was installed before assembling the bulkheads.
Thanks Brett. I'm using nuts and bolts for the ends, already have nuts welded in. The Rolocks are
for the vertical partitions. What size holes do I need or them.
Sorry, I don't have a Rolock on hand to measure-- likely you have one around.
But, it is important to "overdrill" the basement box beam so that the self tapping bolt tightens up properly in the vertical member, rather than torque into the basement box beam and likely not properly torque into the vertical member.
I have some leftover rolocks ,after work I'll measure and post the length
Very helpful:
Length
What diameter to drill basement box beam (so that the Rolock threads slip through).
What diameter to drill the verticals so the Rolock will start and have an "easy time" threading in (smaller dimension than for basement box beam).
Also, when installing the bolts/Rolocks, use a polysulfide sealant to keep water from migrating up the threads.
I used the original holes in the divider walls with new roloks. The hole in the basement floor was just so the rolok could pass through. Everything tightened up nice.
I haven't been able to google rolocks
That is because WE (me and my friends) are MISSPELLING IT! We bought them a "C" and there isn't one.
Rolok®, High Performance Thread Rolling Screw - Semblex (https://www.semblex.com/en/technologies/additional-fasteners/rolok/)
Bolt Depot - Star drive pan head type F (trailer screws), Zinc plated steel,... (https://boltdepot.com/Product-Details?product=14928)
I used these
Started working on the fiberglass. First picture is starting cleaning up the glass and second picture
is it cleaned up so I can start repairing it.
Third picture is getting ready to finish drilling all the attachment holes and fourth picture is all the
holes drilled and the frame turned over so I can weld the bottom.
I want to remove the sewer hose door. Do I just cut the pipe.
That's what I did. I cut past the elbow and worked/pulled it out through the bay. I didn't want to wreck the door in case I could use it for something else someday. ::)
I used a Dremel with a cutting wheel and went in through the door opening and zipped it off, pvc/abs cuts quick. Replaced it with a black one so it takes longer to look hideous.
I did the same as Dave so I have it out. When it was built Foretravel cut the hole to high so it never sat
properly so cut the square hole lower so it will go back in and sit flush.
These pictures of the fiberglass repair. I am repairing all the tears and holes that aren't used anymore.
The first 3 pictures are of the bottom side and the others are the top side. I just found another tear at
the Aqua-hot hole so I will have to turn it over again. I found along time ago that epoxy doesn't stick
plastic sheathing which makes it easy to line things up.
I put insulation in the hole and covered it with FRP on both sides. Here's a pic showing the covered hole along with the reel shelf and Wastemaster hose under it. The bolts through the floor aren't needed.
I have now painted the frame and all things it bolts to with Rust Bullet. It sure is a hard paint.
I started to re glue the rear bulkhead support and I put more plywood in instead of the SM.
It's a shame all that beautiful work will be covered up and under the coach.
First two pictures are finishing the vertical walls. Finally got the frame out of the shop and ready to
for glue. the last picture is a can I bought to put the left over Rust Bullit in as the can it comes in is
unusable. I have three and a half cans left. I bought two much but I think it will keep in these cans
and it is easy to poor a little out for small jobs.
Excellent reference photos (171603) for anyone who may wonder what the bottom frame looks like and what is needed for the repair. A 40 foot model will naturally have 4 feet more length. If aligned for imaginary installation, the front of the frame would slide in a few inches behind the front tire.
It also shows the short amount of "bridge construction or pseudo monocoque construction" our coaches actually have. The rest forward and aft is conventional and responsible for the loose/cracked windshields that many have experienced.
Pierce
Got my son and a neighbor to help glue so we could do it quickly and it was a good idea for the
neighbor as I ran out of glue and he had some.
Got in place and a few bolts in and hoping to get it all bolted up tomorrow.
Peter what are you using for adhesive? Have you skinned the bottom of the frame yet and what did you use for insulation?
I use Sika Pro and I'm planning to urethane foam insulation.
Nice job
Johnh
Used Sikaflex to caulk the wet bay and finished bolting up the frame.
Peter,
I am a little surprised that before bolting the new "frame" to the coach that you did not turn it over, add insulation and filon bottom, perhaps leaving loose the very front and back to allow bolting up to the front and back sections.
Brett I'm planning to urethane foam it instead.
It was really hard installing the black tank as both the pipes were not square.
I'm planning to just plumb the fresh water tank that city water can only fill the tank and not be able
to run the system off city water. It makes plumbing the system much easier and much more trouble
free.
Finally got the fresh water system hooked up. It sure take a long time to get anything done.
In picture, on bay with ,manifold partition, what is the black pump for that is in upper middle right side?
Heat exchanger from the aquahot to keep the tanks from freezing
I think he means left side of the vertical - the black thing that looks like it T's with the larger-diameter PVC plumbing.
That's the recurc pump for the shower and the bathroom sink so I have almost instant hot water.
I have another one under the kitchen cabinet for the kitchen tap. It saves so much water.
Hot water recirculation system (https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=44330)
I finished getting the sewer pipes in this morning. Then my son helped me get the Aqua-hot into
position. We used the blocks to raise the Aqua-hot by rocking it back and forth adding block to get
it up to the height to push it into place. Got it bolted up and the heating pipes tighten up. The second
picture is how the Aqua-hot burner looked after 5 years. The refractometer sight glass was really dirty.
Cleaned the burner changed the nozzle.
Peter,
Just wanted to say how much your photo documentation and detailing of the process is appreciated. I have no doubt this will help members in the future, so Thank You!!
Michelle
I don't know how I would have installed or bolted down the Aqua-hot with out cutting holes from
the fuel tank area. To plug the holes I used some scrap fiberglass I had and pushed them into the
holes and put silicone on the top and bottom and used string to holed them in place until the silicone
dried. I put the cutouts up against the fiberglass and use screws the hold them in place and used a
putty knife to apply the epoxy. Tomorrow I will finish with the epoxy and then the next day I will sand
it smooth.
I installed the tank today using blocks. My son came over this morning to help me remove the door
and then left so using blocks I was able to install the tank by my self.
Had a bit of a screw up, I installed the Aqua-hot a 11/2 right of where it should be so I had to remove
the fuel tank and open the opening that I built so I could put the Aqua-hot where it should be. The fuel
tank will go back in again tomorrow.
I jacked up the coach today for the insulators and the frame is so stiff that jacking under the rear
axle the front axle would lift up so I didn't need to use the jack on the front axle. The frame is really
stiff.
This is how I'm going put the sewer hose holder back together.
I'm ready to fill the Aqua-hot just confirming that it take 16 gallons of fluid.
Peter,
If our unit has had the radiators and related piping drained it takes a full 16 gallons to fill and reprime each heating loop. If we just drain the boiler it takes about 14 gallons to fill. Rudy may have more exact numbers.
Mike
Here is another thought: I do the A/H like the engine flush. I dump old antifreeze and then fill with clean water. I run this water through the heating ;loops. I do this a couple of times. Then I put in enough antifreeze that will be good for 16 gallons. (like 8 gallons of concentrate) then fill with water.
Thanks Mike, the old antifreeze looks like new so I will just replace with new antifreeze and as most
of the system will have drained I will figure on 16 gallons.
Got it spray foamed today and the sewer hose storage tube is back together.
Hooked up the battery and wanted to fill the air bags and nothing. The travel light came on but
nothing happens when I pushed any of the buttons. The batteries have been disconnected for
at least 3 months.
Amazon.com: OEMTOOLS 24444 Cooling System Refiller AirEvac Kit, Quickly... (https://www.amazon.com/OEMTOOLS-24444-Cooling-System-Refiller/dp/B01BW39HJS/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=35WE8NS6A46XM&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Y8xq3YyQbpfAC9ITCCfRB6wjcgGFbmXOBhDyE3vrCxGZcjXHGy3wgDr5rV1qGF5XGyNFyIp2eEAp4kMh_gGM-aPFSzuiKI0JSxAlYYxDcEI9VJ4mcl6UB9pBDtJ1j9KfAAn7kwYwVfpRp9QXhNrXShUsJoheHTHkYQ19VnpGBBQG2HmvyoqqON5ppPAz7wioOHDrS-5dyS-hkYntSuumIbjBfMv5GQOOs43a64ahUZwUG1MBfIksjOFdvuMgUOdRYZkwrnYtVR4aOFelpzhDYBrSauJFk2TIH8LkA9b_6vQ.ohrRrZUGGCtIjiuw2GCnz82vvHTI18_0aG_MYKWKgaI&dib_tag=se&keywords=vacuum%2Bcoolant%2Bfiller&qid=1755748864&sprefix=Vacuum%2Bcoo%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1)
Really worked well getting all the air out for me
The HWH didn't work because it runs off the house batteries and I hadn't installed them at the time.
The return line for the Fass System was sounding slow so I changed the Fass filters and this how they looked
after 5 years. With the new filters the volume picked up for the return line. All fuel and antifreeze is back in.
Ran everything yesterday and will double check antifreeze again today.
Changing the water fill is awesome it is so much simpler and it turns out that I can run off city water if I had too.
Installed the Joey Bed the other day and starting to fill them up as I'm heading for the Island tomorrow
night. The last job was putting fiber glass around the the sewer door. Took the coach out today for a short
drive and then notice the coach wasn't at the right ride height so I looked up the right ride height and made
easy tool to check the height. It's back at the height. The bulkhead rebuild was a lot of work but it's done.
What a project! Congratulations on getting that done. Thanks for all the posts and pictures it was a fun journey to watch.
Huge project. I can only imagine, the pride you must feel completing such a project. Threads like this are what keep me coming back to this forum!
Tom
I left for Vancouver Island last night and every thing seems to be working fine except for the storage
lights. I think I shorted a switch out but all the fuses are good in the fuse panel at the end of the bed.
Is there another place to look.
Dis you switch them off at the light while you were working on it?
Peter,
On your coach those lights should be on one of the manual reset breakers in the basement behind the fiberglass cover.
Mike
Thanks Mike it is labeled brake light so maybe I also had no brake lights. Any how they are working now.
Now having rebuilding the bulkheads I would recommend calking the corner between the angle iron and the the vertical wall as water can get in there and create rust. Do the front and rear.
I have sealed it with paint but when I get home I will add Sikaflex.