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Topic: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1 (Read 1619 times) previous topic - next topic

Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

 ::) Well, I should have caught this pre purchase, but I was probably to enamored with this coach to care anyway... My one lame excuse is that it was about a 100 degrees out when looking at the coach and the pavement she was sitting on was even hotter and rough to boot andI didn't know exactly how or where to look for this issue. I had read the threads (enough to know about it anyway), but I certainly could have used the information as another bargaining chip at the very least. Distant history now, like the moment just before a tire blowout where everything is sailing along just the way you want it, and then all hell breaks loose and you think that a time machine that could take you back a few seconds shouldn't be too much to ask, things are different than they were just a moment ago. Well, what's done is done, and now I begin the process to return to the status quo, only better because this time the hidden danger lies revealed, eventually to be conquered by diligent application and the help of all the wonderful people on this forum!

I understand the basics of what people of have done this fix themselves and I find that reassuring because I feel I can follow in their footsteps. So far I haven't done anything except take a few pictures. I have to make some frame blocks and as long as it may be possible to operate the coach without further damage for a few short excursions, I want to put off the fix for awhile in order to figure out exactly how I want to approach it and to do a few other projects as well. What I could use some help on is the assessment of just how sever the problem is as regards safety and doing no further damage to the coach. To that end, I will post the pictures I have taken. As you can see, some of the bolts have backed out quite a bit, and hopefully that means that I will be able to get them all the way out when the time comes and use those same holes (with the requisite enlarging) for the new grade 8 through bolts, washers and nuts (I plan to use some square sill plate washers to help distribute the clamping power as well as lock washers etc.). In the mean time, I am tempted to spray some nut buster on the shafts of the loose ones and try to see if they are intact, and if so, tighten them a bit without attempting to close the gap so that they are at least contributing some holding power.

The good news is that the front appears to be unaffected, though I will need to verify the integrity of the bolts to be sure. But at least, it doesn't appear to have separated at all. I haven't lost heart in this machine, and this fix will, in the end, just be part of the process of making it our own.

Thanks in advance for any assessments, suggestions, or ideas as this project progresses. I plan to document the process step by step and will hopefully help someone else along the way.

Don

P.S. As regards to any of your assessments, all I am looking for is informed opinion... no legally binding gurantees of applicability or anything of the kind. Feel free to express your ideas, anything we do to address this problem and potential saftey issue is soley our own responsibility. I know in any common sense infused discussion, such a statement is totally unnecessary. Sadly in our too often litigous society (just my opinion), such disclaimers have become the defacto standard. Probably don't need it in this forum (after all, you have already proven your common sense by owning a Foretravel!), but since I am a newcommer and have yet to have ammased a track record displaying said common sense, I just thought I would throw that in...
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #1
Don, Sorry to find such things, but if you look at the listing in the upper part of this section, you will find a lot of good info that will give you many good ideas I am sure.
Good luck
Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look REVISED

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #2
Don,
Although this is probably depressing, if there is no "rust jacking" or separation of the bulkhead, the fix isn't expensive if you pay someone to do it, and almost trivial (hardware) if you DIY.

In general people have driven months and many miles with this condition, that being said, why not tackle it as one of your earlier projects?
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #3
Since I can't safely get underneath, not having yet made frame blocks, I can't say for sure how severe the rust jacking is, but I can see that it is a factor. I guess the photos need some scale inorder to judge the degree of separation, so I will attempt to take some more with a visible reference.

I have already received some good suggestions via PM's, and I am sure more yet will be forthcoming. Does anybody have any pictures or drawings of the "bones" of this vintage a coach? I would really like to get some context about what kind of stress is on this joint. I guess that the main load of the driving force is taken by the frame at the floor level in combination with the overhead structure. It seems to me that the coach will hinge at the floor level as the bulkhead tries to separate, causing compression of the roof structure. Having read that the box tube that the angle iron is supposed to be attached to has walls that are only 1/8" thick, I find it difficult to believe that it was intended to carry much of the drive train load. Does anybody know the thickness of the other rest of the structural steel (which I gather is mostly welded, rather than bolted together?

Don
Don,
Although this is probably depressing, if there is no "rust jacking" or separation of the bulkhead, the fix isn't expensive if you pay someone to do it, and almost trivial (hardware) if you DIY.

In general people have driven months and many miles with this condition, that being said, why not tackle it as one of your earlier projects?
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #4
I think the most expensive repair I heard of was under 1500.00, at the factory.
The selected media item is not currently available. Dave Head & Megan Westbrook
Titusville, FL - The Great Outdoors
'98 270 buying this month
Toad is a 2018 F150 XLT

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #5
Don
Based upon the good photos you posted, it's apparent that the bolt heads that you see that have "backed out" have actually broken off flush with the 1/4" angle iron. When you try to back the bolts out, most will fall off.. Been there, done that. The problem with trying to drill out the flush portion is that the Rolock bolt is much harder than the angle iron. Brett Wolfe has a method (see archives) of double nutting the embedded portion and unscrewing it.
The degree of separation on your "bulkheads" is about the same as was on mine. I ended up drilling 13 new through-holes and installing 7/16" Grade 8 bolts and nuts. Once completed, you shouldn't have to worry about it again. The biggest challenge in doing the drilling is maintaining adequate pressure on the drill bit with slow rotation and keeping cutting oil on the bit at all times.
Don, this is not an emergency situation; just install new bolts in the not too distant future.
Don Hay
'92 Grandvilla, U-280
The Hayfever Express
Build #4055
'97 GEO Tracker
Life is like licking honey off a thorn.

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #6
Don,

It does look like you've got some rust jacking, but mainly bolt failure, and as others have noted, the repair is not too expensive if even done at the factory, and mainly time consuming if you do it yourself (as I did.)  Looked at another way, it's a fix that makes you feel really good once it's done.  Is this something you would do yourself?  If so, I have advice on tools to get/have: 

The main two I think are essential are  a DeWalt right angle drill (I got the 18V cordless one,) and an Irwin quick-grip bar clamp.  Get at least a 24" bar clamp if you don't already have one, since you can use it later for lots of things (e.g. to compress gas shocks and heavy gas struts.)  (Assume you  have read Brett Wolfe's excellent bulkhead repair article.) 

After using a magnet to locate the inside edge of the square tube that the failed Rolok bolts went into, use a hole saw and drill  1-3/8 holes next to the tube through the fiberglass where you want the bolts to go (be very very sure not to let the pilot drill go up into the floor above since there may be tanks filled with liquid up there!).  Then put one jaw of the Irwin into the hole and use the other jaw against the head of the right angle drill to "encourage" the drill...(I used velcro to keep the jaw on the drill head.)  Then drill your 3/8" bolt holes and watch your muscles thank you for not making them push hard on the drill for each hole!  I used grade 8 bolts & nuts, with lock washers and 1" heavy washers on the inside.  Keep the beer close by and play music...

Oh and before you start putting bolts in, it will be important to clear out as much of the rust from the gap as possible.  I used a Sawzall with a good metal cutting blade, and even did some chiseling to get the bigger rust pieces out.  If you have more separation, I suppose you could use a small disk grinder, but it didn't look like yours was quite that advanced.  I sprayed the crack with undercoating before sealing it up and then put liberal amounts over it and the heads of the bolts, and especially at the seam between the top of the frame angle piece and the bulkhead.  You will likely find wetness when you drill the 1 3/8 holes, so leaving the plugs out for a while will dry things out.  Some of the outside 1 3/8 holes may go into plywood, and you might have to remove the plug with a small chisel.

Also2 - check inside the water heater & utility compartments for leaks, since water can get into the bulkhead seam if the inside corner isn't sealed and there's a leak in there.


PM if you have more questions!
Dave and Nancy
1999/2013 U270 36' Xtreme
Motorcade # 16774
2013 Subaru Outback
KD0NIM

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #7
Those are some good tips Dave, thanks! I think using a Sawsall to knock out rust flakes is a great idea, as are the clamps (of which I have plenty!)... I am definitely up for doing it myself, as I don't think anybody else will take the pains that i will endure to do it right. How much did you use your coach after you discovered the issue on yours? And were you able to close the gap when all was said and done? Or is the best one can hope for just to stabilize it and protect it from further water intrusion by the use of sealers?
Don


It does look like you've got some rust jacking, but mainly bolt failure, and as others have noted, the repair is not too expensive if even done at the factory, and mainly time consuming if you do it yourself (as I did.)  Looked at another way, it's a fix that makes you feel really good once it's done.  Is this something you would do yourself?  If so, I have advice on tools to get/have: 

The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #8
I have no problem driving the coach with missing bolts, but obviously if they all are missing, there might be more flexibility where you don't want it...    I drove our coach a while before I found time to work on it, but tried to avoid off-road excursions.  On the other hand, I drove it for a year before I even checked for bulkhead problems, and who knows how long the PO had driven it with that condition.    The gap pulled together quite well on mine and I expect it also will on yours, so after you're done, it will be good as new, or perhaps better, since the through bolts are stronger than the originals.
Dave and Nancy
1999/2013 U270 36' Xtreme
Motorcade # 16774
2013 Subaru Outback
KD0NIM

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #9
Don, I just did mine (Front) earlier this year. If you go to Ace hardware they have a 1 3/8 hole saw for wood that is considerably shorter than most and cheaper, it will give you a lot more room ot work with.
Bruce, Linda, and Macy
Zoey RIP 1/20/19
1999 U295 40' build #5400
2017 silver Jeep Wrangler, 1260 watts of solar on top
Moving around the country

 

Re: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1

Reply #10
Don,

Too bad about the bulkhead.  I did the repair last year although mine was not as bad as yours from the pictures.  I didn't try to remove any rust between the angle and the basement floor.  I think you should try to remove as much rust as possible and coat the metal with undercoating.  Although I have not seen how Foretravel built the floor, I think they first weld a frame using 1 1/2" square steel tube (I'm not positive about the size), second a foam board is placed in the openings formed by the steel tubing, third 2 thin pieces of sheet fiberglass are bonded to both top and bottom sides of the frame.  There is quite a bit of framing in the midsection where heavy loads might be expected, such as at vertical bulkheads, and tanks.  You might also find some plywood in a few places.  It is placed there for screws to attach items such as the water pump.  The water tank is located just above where you will be drilling holes.  Be careful not to drill into the tank.  The framing may have been weakened from the rust as it is not very thick to begin with.  The angle is rather thick so no problem there.  I suggest that you make some backing plates from 3/16" thick flat steel.  Sort of like a square washer to transfer the load from the nut on the bolt to the top and bottom sides of the steel tubing.  Otherwise the wall of the steel tubing at the hole for the bolt just tends to collapse as the bolt is tightened.  I tried the hole saw then switched to a rotozip tool and cut somewhat square holes.  That made it easier to insert the backing plate and nut.  After all the bolts were in and tight, I foamed the openings, re-fiberglassed and sanded it smooth again.  Since it is where no one will see it, it doesn't have to be perfect.  If you have to take all the bolts out to clear the rust, suggest you empty the tanks first to remove as much weight on the floor as possible.  Maybe even consider supporting the floor forward of where you have to work.  I used a block of hardwood with predrilled holes as a guide for drilling the holes.  One hole for each size drill and drilled on a drill press.  I clamped it to the angle.  The inside part of the angle is not exactly 90 degrees like the outside.  Its rounded at the corner and tapers some to the edges, so the guide block has to be made to fit.  When pulling the gap together, tighten all the bolts a little in several steps until it closes.  I also used a lock nut on the bolts.  In some places you may find that the sharp end of the original bolt terminates inside a fore and aft tube.  If a lot (half) of the bolts  are broken it might not be a good idea to completely fill the tanks until the repair can be made. 
Jerry Whiteaker former owner 96 U270  36' #4831 Austin,TX-Owner Mods LCD TV w/front cabinet rebuild - LCD TV bedroom - Dual Central AC, either can cool coach w 30 amp - Skylights at roof AC openings - Drop ceiling for ducting of AC - Shower skylight white gelcoat/wood/epoxy frame - Air Springs/Shocks replaced - 2014 CRV - 8K Home Solar - Chevy Volt