Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Topic: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!) (Read 3969 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #25 – March 05, 2012, 09:40:46 am

Christi, you need to check the fridge for being level, if it is to far out of level you need to shut it down and use the old ice chest method.

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #26 – March 05, 2012, 01:47:00 pm

Christi,

I'm about half way between Victoria and Nac if there's any thing I can do to help let me know. I also have a contact for a good fabricator/rig welder in Corpus on the off chance that it's field repairable. Like others I am very keen to know what has failed.

Chuck

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #27 – March 06, 2012, 10:49:25 pm

I'm in with Chuck,I'm in Corpus and have some welding in my background, if you would like some one to look at it I'd drive over and take a peek.. 244-0665

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #28 – March 07, 2012, 07:59:52 am

Chrisi,

Our schedule has changed and we will be in Nac (or close) for 3 more weeks. ANYTHING we can do to help give us a PM or call six10 two12 nine047 Carol & Jeff

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #29 – March 07, 2012, 09:39:24 am

Carol, lunch at butcher boys today or maybe some place quieter? Appleby Sand cafe is quieter, if you like country style food, buffet.

Mike harbordt
936-635-0867

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #30 – March 07, 2012, 03:15:02 pm

Hi All! Thanks for all the ideas and offers of assistance - ya'll are really a great bunch and we sure appreciate the help & support. Fortunately we found a highly recommended local welding/fabricating shop that can do the work - this fits our schedule much better rather than towing 300 miles to FOT. To answer a few questions - we do tow a Honda - only about 3600 lbs, well within the limit. Fortunately the bus is staying pretty level so the fridge is functioning properly.

I am including a drawing showing the areas affected. The 2 inside vertical angles that are broken apparently have been broken for a while as the breaks are rusty, they are not of a very heavy gauge steel. The separation starts just to the right of the vertical piece to which the trailing arm connects. This bulkhead panel is pushed out about 1 3/4" on the bottom which is what pushed the trailing arm back which pushed the axle back. We are not sure when we will schedule the work - we need to fit it in with our schedule. I will keep you all posted how that goes.

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #31 – March 07, 2012, 03:53:05 pm

Good info.

My only other thought is that the damage occurred from braking, and the body of the coach kept moving forward. Also the "towed" would have applied forward pressure, through the hitch, while stopping if there was no braking system installed. I would be interested in knowing if you had to make a "Hard" stop just prior to this happening?

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #32 – March 07, 2012, 05:10:37 pm

Thanks for the update! Question for you... Was this drawing in your coach documentatio... Or did Foretravel give that to you since you have been in communication? Man, I sure could of used the equivalent for our coach when starting the bulkhead/subframe repair project!
Thanks, Don

Quote from: Christis Dream – March 07, 2012, 03:15:02 pm

Hi All! Thanks for all the ideas and offers of assistance - ya'll are really a great bunch and we sure appreciate the help & support. Fortunately we found a highly recommended local welding/fabricating shop that can do the work - this fits our schedule much better rather than towing 300 miles to FOT. To answer a few questions - we do tow a Honda - only about 3600 lbs, well within the limit. Fortunately the bus is staying pretty level so the fridge is functioning properly.

I am including a drawing showing the areas affected. The 2 inside vertical angles that are broken apparently have been broken for a while as the breaks are rusty, they are not of a very heavy gauge steel. The separation starts just to the right of the vertical piece to which the trailing arm connects. This bulkhead panel is pushed out about 1 3/4" on the bottom which is what pushed the trailing arm back which pushed the axle back. We are not sure when we will schedule the work - we need to fit it in with our schedule. I will keep you all posted how that goes.

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #33 – March 07, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

I will speculate, given the information above-- PLEASE, correct me if this is incorrect.

Bulkhead separation is generally NOT a "good one day-- failed the next day". Instead, it is a gradual failure. When one bolt breaks, that puts more load on the neighboring bolts. When the next bolt(s) break......

When enough bolts break, you will then see a separation of the bulkhead. Said another way, you will see a gap between the angle steel aft and the white fiberglass floor forward (talking about the rear one).

In doing mechanical inspections on Foretravels, I have seen:

1. Many that were perfect-- no separation, no broken bolts.
2. A number with 2-5 broken bolts (between the 30 or so bolts on front and rear bulkheads) with no separation.
3. A few with more broken bolts and some separation-- most from salt exposure (northern coaches or long-term water leak in wet bay which is just in front of the rear bulkhead).
4. I have only inspected two that I would classify as major issues. But, they had to go through a LONG period of failure to reach these levels-- they didn't just "happen".

Remember, it only takes 10 minutes to check both front and rear bulkhead bolts with your "eye" (looking for separation) and an inch-lb torque wrench to check bolt integrity. The fix for a couple of broken bolts is a few bucks and a few hours. It is only where this has been "let go" that this turns into a serious issue.

I don't want to minimize this, but sure don't want readers, particularly new to this Foretravel site to think this is a major issue. "Invest" a few minutes and VERIFY that yours are fine and move on. As we know from all on-line technical sites, it is easy for issues to be blown out of prospective.

Please go back to this 2 year old document for more information: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look

Brett

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #34 – March 07, 2012, 05:34:14 pm

It would be great to have drawings like this in the Foretravel library where we could download and blow them up.

In looking at the rectangular tubing under our U300, the wall thickness and layout looks strong enough to pull a locomotive. The bulkhead design where it attaches seems to be the area where it should be checked for rust/corrosion/cracking at least on a seasonal basis. Small cracks with rust next to them may be found with a strong flashlight. Some bulkhead bolt heads may be in place but broken off a short distance from the head.

I was just about to post this when I noticed Brett's. Good idea with torque wrench.

Pierce

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #35 – March 07, 2012, 05:52:42 pm

Hi Brett

Believe it or not the bulkhead separation happened pretty quick - I will say we had done a little driving on really bumpy roads. I am quite confident that the actual separation happened fairly fast - a few weeks ago I saw a photo where someone used that narrow space for a peg board for some tools and I checked that bay out to see about doing the same thing - I know if there had been any separation I would have seen then. I think the drive on the bumpy roads accelerated the separation - it was inevitable but the bumpy drive really shook it up. We were on a paved highway when the worst damage occurred - no sudden stops or bumps then.

James Triana emailed the drawing after I contacted them. A full set would very handy.

Quote from: wolfe10 – March 07, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

I will speculate, given the information above-- PLEASE, correct me if this is incorrect.

Bulkhead separation is generally NOT a "good one day-- failed the next day". Instead, it is a gradual failure. When one bolt breaks, that puts more load on the neighboring bolts. When the next bolt(s) break......

When enough bolts break, you will then see a separation of the bulkhead. Said another way, you will see a gap between the angle steel aft and the white fiberglass floor forward (talking about the rear one).

In doing mechanical inspections on Foretravels, I have seen:

1. Many that were perfect-- no separation, no broken bolts.
2. A number with 2-5 broken bolts (between the 30 or so bolts on front and rear bulkheads) with no separation.
3. A few with more broken bolts and some separation-- most from salt exposure (northern coaches or long-term water leak in wet bay which is just in front of the rear bulkhead).
4. I have only inspected two that I would classify as major issues. But, they had to go through a LONG period of failure to reach these levels-- they didn't just "happen".

Remember, it only takes 10 minutes to check both front and rear bulkhead bolts with your "eye" (looking for separation) and an inch-lb torque wrench to check bolt integrity. The fix for a couple of broken bolts is a few bucks and a few hours. It is only where this has been "let go" that this turns into a serious issue.

I don't want to minimize this, but sure don't want readers, particularly new to this Foretravel site to think this is a major issue. "Invest" a few minutes and VERIFY that yours are fine and move on. As we all know from all on-line technical sites, it is easy for issues to be blown out of prospective.

Please go back to this 2 year old document for more information: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look

Brett

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #36 – March 07, 2012, 06:07:35 pm

Quote from: Christis Dream – March 07, 2012, 05:52:42 pm

Hi Brett

Believe it or not the bulkhead separation happened pretty quick - I will say we had done a little driving on really bumpy roads. I am quite confident that the actual separation happened fairly fast - a few weeks ago I saw a photo where someone used that narrow space for a peg board for some tools and I checked that bay out to see about doing the same thing - I know if there had been any separation I would have seen then.

Christi,

We are talking about two different things/areas. You are talking about the bulkheads inside the basement. I believe they failed only AFTER the total failure of the bulkhead I wrote up two years ago and referred to just now. That bulkhead is UNDER the coach. And, sure, after it lets go, THEN you will see issues with the bulkheads inside the basement, suspension issues, etc.

So, the question is, did you check the bulkheads (read the link in my post above). If so, what did you find when you bought it, weeks before the failure, etc?

Look at the excellent photos Don took of the bulkhead area in the first post on this thread to see the bulkhead that probably was the CAUSE of your failure: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1.

Brett

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #37 – March 07, 2012, 06:52:37 pm

I would like to see a structure drawing of the bottom of the bay tubing which has to part of the connecting structure to the bulkhead, something has be present to tie the bolts to and the bay floor tubing must be involved to give horizontal strength to distribute the forces from the axle. JC

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #38 – March 07, 2012, 11:34:36 pm

Quote from: hotonthetrail – March 07, 2012, 06:52:37 pm

I would like to see a structure drawing of the bottom of the bay tubing which has to part of the connecting structure to the bulkhead, something has be present to tie the bolts to and the bay floor tubing must be involved to give horizontal strength to distribute the forces from the axle. JC

There are 15+ Rolock bolts securing the angle to the 1 1/2" box beam at both the front and back bulkhead to front/rear suspension/frame. The photos Don took of his bulkhead separation show the bolts and his "rebuild photos" show this area very clearly. A Rolock is a high-end self tapping bolt. The repair uses grade 8 bolts, washers, nuts and plug where you access the bottom fiberglass to install the washer and nut.

Brett

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #39 – March 08, 2012, 01:39:50 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – March 07, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

I will speculate, given the information above-- PLEASE, correct me if this is incorrect.

Bulkhead separation is generally NOT a "good one day-- failed the next day". Instead, it is a gradual failure. When one bolt breaks, that puts more load on the neighboring bolts. When the next bolt(s) break......

Brett

Brett, Mine wasn't a "good one day-- failed the next day", but I had been watching carefully for bulkhead indications and my issues progressed from "nothing visible" to considerable separation in a few short months of essentially idle coach storage...............well documented, in Oct. of 2009, here:
Bulkhead Separation

I also see misperceptions about trailering creeping into the discussions again.

Quote from: Don Hay – March 04, 2012, 09:51:01 pm

Christi,
After reading over all of the posts regarding your issue, I didn't see anyone pose this question: Were you towing a vehicle or trailer at the time of the separation? If so, how heavy was it? I believe that the '93 U-280 towing assembly was rated for the same as our '92 U-280, which is 5,000 lbs. Even if you weren't towing at the time, if the coach had a history of towing substantially more than 5,000 lbs before you bought the coach (recently as I recall), that could have had an impact. Having said that, the Foretravel people have told me that the towing assembly (on the 280) was "heavy duty" and capable of towing more than the rated amount. Nevertheless, excessive tow weight is a factor to be considered.

Don,
Trailering can produce shock loading on the coach sidewalls but it does not aggravate bulkhead issues unless one uses ONLY the trailer brakes to stop a coach plus trailer combination, or unless one has the horsepower and can accelerate aggressively enough to separate the bulkhead joint while overcoming the trailer's inertia. In all other instances, the trailer braking forces encountered during normal service braking and retarder braking, with a trailer in tow, compress the bulkhead joint. However, without a trailer to compress (and therefore help) the bulkhead joint, aggressive retarder use will try to OPEN the bulkhead joint. That, along with an extremely humid, wet 2009 New England summer, may well have aggravated my situation because I drove the coach four times, during that summer, in the rain, in the New England mountains without a trailer or car in tow.
It's my theory that the wet summer, the fresh water tank overflow and the rain I drove in all aggravated the rust jacking susceptibility and it simply caused the weakened ROLOCK bolts to fail.
I agree that the whole bulkhead issue should not raise alarm. It certainly wasn't much of a problem for me, was easily and relatively inexpensively addressed. I'm very glad that I knew to be watching for it and had been since roughly 2002 or 2003. But it did manifest itself in an unexpected way and in a pretty short time frame.
It's definitely worth keeping the misconceptions at bay.
The issue needs to be understood and watched for in our vintage coaches, or, as we know, it can progress out of control.
Coaches operated in States that use the roadway liquid De-icers are the most prone to the issue. Bear in mind that the coach does not actually need to be operated in the De-icer liquid. Liquid De-icers are many times more damage producing than rock salt and are so aggressive that the damage producing residuals reside in the pavement well beyond the storms when they were laid down. Then, damp highways produce the mist that carry them to the seams and joints where they do their work.
V/R
Neal

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #40 – March 08, 2012, 09:54:25 am

Christi,

If you would, post photos of the area shown in these excellent pictures taken by Don on the first post in this thread: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1 or in Neal's excellent write-up and pictures: Bulkhead Separation

Neal,

Agree that a visual inspection alone can be misleading. If the coach is not under stress from road/towing, etc there could be many broken bolts, yet no separation. That is why from the beginning I have suggested putting a wrench on the Rolock bolts and VERIFYING that they are OK. Were the coach to have the majority of the bolts break from long sitting with salty solution on them from road salt, parking near salt water, etc, it could APPEAR that the failure was "good one day, bad the next". But I suspect that a torquing of bolts would have revealed a number of failed ones well before the bulkhead showed visible signs of separating.

Again, we are talking about whether 15+ bolts are secure. The rusted head could still be there and "look" OK but holding NOTHING-- hence the use of a wrench to check.

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #41 – March 08, 2012, 12:29:51 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – March 08, 2012, 09:54:25 am

......................Agree that a visual inspection alone can be misleading.......................The rusted head could still be there and "look" OK but holding NOTHING-- hence the use of a wrench to check.

Brett,
I too have crawled under a significant population of FT's, encouraging other owners to do the same. My FT "Runnin' Mate" (that had a problem with his 2000 U320 back in 2002 or 2003) got me on board with the need to be vigilant. I don't agree, but he always said "It's not a matter of WILL it show up, but WHEN will it show up? So, you might as well put in the reinforcement bolting now, rather than later."

From my experience, there are usually a number of indicators, including failure to withstand the 250 inch-lb. (20-21 ft.-lb.) torque check, but I agree with using a torque wrench, and until you advocated the torque check, it wasn't routinely practiced.

I've lost track, but I don't think that a torque check is routinely practiced at MOT, FOT or Extreme, even today. I think that they all still (primarily) use visual, until they have collaborating indicators or they actually become involved in a repair. From a liability standpoint, I guess that makes sense, but from an owner's standpoint, a 250 inch-lb. torque check is almost always a crystal clear "go/no-go" indication. The only time that it isn't, that I know of, is when a ROLOCK strips and offers significant resistance, but not the full 250 inch-lb. torque.
Of course it goes without saying that when one finds defective ROLOCKS, one needs to be prepared to correct the defects without excuse and/or procrastination!
Neal

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #42 – March 08, 2012, 04:40:25 pm

Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – March 08, 2012, 12:29:51 pm

Brett,
I too have crawled under a significant population of FT's, encouraging other owners to do the same. My FT "Runnin' Mate" (that had a problem with his 2000 U320 back in 2002 or 2003) got me on board with the need to be vigilant. I don't agree, but he always said "It's not a matter of WILL it show up, but WHEN will it show up? So, you might as well put in the reinforcement bolting now, rather than later."
Neal

Neal,

I agree with you, not your running mate. Once broken bolts are replaced properly and that area sealed from water intrusion around the bolts, I have seen a VERY low rate of failure. After 2 1/2 years of driving our coach since the very few broken bolts were replaced and the area cleaned and undercoated to keep water from wicking up the bolt threads, I have had zero failures.

Last week I inspected a much newer Foretravel that had a few broken Rolocks replaced awhile back. 100% torqued up just fine.

It is when water is allowed to continue to wick up the Rolock threads, and bolts break that it becomes "inevitable" that more will fail.

The design is NOT flawed. But, the lack of waterproofing around the bolts where the angle was over-size drilled so the Rolocks can torque up in the 1 1/2" tube did allow for damage, particularly in salty conditions.

Replace the broken ones, wire brush the angle and bulkhead joint, mask off the bolt heads, and undercoat. If that is done, would love to hear of anyone who has more issues. Cost is minimal unless just totally neglected-- ya just like a lot of other things.

Brett

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #43 – April 20, 2012, 03:34:35 pm

How did you come out of this situation?? OR has anyone heard from them?

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #44 – May 10, 2012, 05:17:41 am

Hello to All!

Well after 2 months our last job finally completed and we were able to take the MH for repair. I was fortunate to find a local welder/fabricator who could handle the job. We had a tow company come out to look at the problem and his recommendation was to drive the MH very slowly (10 - 15 MPH) the 15 miles to the repair shop which we did without incident. We did run a chain around the rear axle and a structural member up front and cinch with a come along to ensure the rear axle would not pull back any further whilst driving.

I have to say if you are ever in S. Texas and need a welder I have the company for you! These guys were great - very safety conscientious - they were extremely aware of the fire potential and took every step to minimize the risk using fire barrier everywhere and even pulling up a section of the floor. They were able to weld the breaks in all of the vertical supports and then weld those along their full length for reinforcement. The one thing they found that we could not see on our inspection was where the steel channel on top of the air bag broke loose from the center structural member (originally this was only tack welded) which they also welded. They fabricated a steel angle piece and welded it along the bottom the ran bolts through it up into the basement flooring.

Fortunately the rear axle went easily back into alignment with no damage to any mechanical components - even the air bags re-seated with no leaks! The best part - it only took 2 days in the shop and now drives like a dream. The refrigerator is back to consistently keeping cold now that we can level and our rolling chairs at the table do not roll downhill all the time!

I want to thank everyone here for all of the help and support - you guys are really great in a crisis. If I can convince my husband to crawl under the MH again I will post some pics of the repair - not too sure that will happen again - he's probably had enough of crawling under the MH for a while!

One thing I will say to anyone researching this issue is if you are hearing random loud bangs while driving down the road - you might think it is transmission related but it is probably your rear end coming apart - check it out NOW.

Thanks again

Christi

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #45 – May 10, 2012, 10:02:38 am

Christi ... it is certainly wonderful to hear that you are on the road again! I don't know where you are just now ... but if you are in Texas and within striking distance of the Factory, I would certainly make that a destination. It would be money well spent to have them check things out just to see what must have happened. There may be other issues that you can head off with a little preventive maintenance. The guys there are not going to raid your wallet needlessly, especially after hearing your story and knowing that you have such an interested following on the Forum. They DO know us and they pay attention! Best of luck to you guys!

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #46 – May 10, 2012, 11:51:15 am

Christi and Ray,

Good that you have the coach back in one piece and you are continuing on with it. I second Carols recommendation, take it back to NAC for a thorough inspection and alignment. The folk at the Factory and at Motor Homes of Texas know their stuff and are trustworthy.

Keith

Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)

Reply #47 – May 10, 2012, 01:12:21 pm

I third that suggestion.

I just left Camp Foretravel after having several services completed. I must say that this has been my most pleasant experience with Foretravel Service. The attitudes and customer concern were noticeably better than in the past. I met Drew, the new service manager and was duly impressed. I think the benefits of Drew and Corey's recent promotion are already showing. The whole atmosphere was just more friendly and the work was done right and in a timely manner.

Way to go Foretravel.

Affiliate Notice