Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Topic: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over (Read 1404 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #25 – August 04, 2012, 11:13:54 pm

here it is I think

Foretravel ignition switch

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #26 – August 05, 2012, 12:00:31 am

This posting explains the circuits that control our starter. There is a lot of good info on this posting that will answer your question.
Start failure-no crank-fixed it.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #27 – August 05, 2012, 09:21:59 am

Hi Barry,

Thank you, I visited the other thread and I will print out you're wiring posts. Can I try jumping the starter solenoid next to the isolater or only jump solenoid located on the starter?

Tony

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #28 – August 05, 2012, 09:25:44 am

Quote from: John S – August 04, 2012, 11:10:40 pm

there is a utube video showing it on a foretravel I remember seeing.

Thanks John for the video, seems like a simple procedure. Do you know who makes our ignitions and how to purchase if needed?

Tony

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #29 – August 05, 2012, 10:11:34 am

It would seem that since it won't start with the rear start button either it's not the ignition switch.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #30 – August 05, 2012, 10:21:18 am

I apologize. I re-read your original post and it does not start from the rear so that would eliminate the ignition switch actuator. Both the rear start and ignition switche run through the start solenoid in the dash, however. I have a '94 (eat your heart out Kent) but let me do some research and see what I can come up with.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #31 – August 05, 2012, 10:26:01 am

Quote from: Tony Pasquale – August 05, 2012, 09:21:59 am

jump solenoid located on the starter?

Tony

There's a high potential for shock(mental) and awe in doing this. Be careful.....fire will fly. Better yet, don't do it. Sounds like your problem is in an interlock or, most likely, the upstream solenoid.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #32 – August 05, 2012, 10:39:05 am

Ok. I find an auxillary start solenoid. Mine is located next to the boost solenoid. This may be the culprit. Both remote and ignition go through this. So.........on one side should be always 12v. The other side will only be 12v when the start position is hit. I hope this solves your problem. You can jump a wire from always hot to the other side to see if you get a hit on the starter. If so, it is the solenoid. If not it is either the neutral switch or something beyond the scope of my pea brain.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #33 – August 05, 2012, 10:54:59 am

Chuck, you are right about the shock potential and it heats up a bunch too. Had to do it to get the coach moving once.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #34 – August 05, 2012, 11:09:47 am

Don't let them bullwinkle you, jumping across the starter & start solenoid mounted on starter, is no more difficult than checking your oil, you just need to get under (on my coach) and find the starter, I would use a screwdriver, jump from the heavy cable terminal to the small terminal on solenoid, Bingo, it is running if you have the key in the run position.
Yes there will be a few sparks, not lethal, if your familiar to this, enough said, if not, it might be best to call a mechanic.
Dave M

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #35 – August 05, 2012, 11:10:50 am

Hi All,

Let me see if I am understanding everyone properly on the procedure

First I try jumping the start solenoid next to the isolater and if I get a hit on the starter, if I do then I replace this solenoid and afterwards engine should start.
If not then jump the starter solenoid to get started and be able to take to mechanic for starter replacement

Tony

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Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #36 – August 05, 2012, 11:26:07 am

Quote from: John S – August 05, 2012, 10:54:59 am

Chuck, you are right about the shock potential and it heats up a bunch too. Had to do it to get the coach moving once.

Quote from: Dave M – August 05, 2012, 11:09:47 am

Don't let them bullwinkle you, jumping across the starter & start solenoid mounted on starter, is no more difficult than checking your oil, you just need to get under (on my coach) and find the starter, I would use a screwdriver, jump from the heavy cable terminal to the small terminal on solenoid, Bingo, it is running if you have the key in the run position.
Yes there will be a few sparks, not lethal, if your familiar to this, enough said, if not, it might be best to call a mechanic.
Dave M

Thanks Chuck, Dave, going over to storage yard now and let all know results later.

Tony

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #37 – August 05, 2012, 11:46:14 am

Yes you get a spark but you can do it, I agree with Dave M.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #38 – August 05, 2012, 11:56:12 am

Danger/difficulty of jumping a solenoid depends on WHAT you are jumping.

If jumping from the "always hot" large lug to the signal terminal (disconnect signal wire) you are only talking about ONE amp. This works fine IF the problem is that you have a problem "up-hill" of the solenoid.

If jumping from large terminal to large terminal you are talking about a LOT of amps-- up to the full rating of the solenoid. If the solenoid is bad, and tapping on it doesn't cause it to "wake up" this is what you will be jumping.

A small jumper wire can be used to jump to the signal terminal.

Battery cables would be needed to jump the large lugs, or MUCH safer, mark and remove the wires from the "non-hot" large lug and holding the insulation, touch them/attach them (if it is a solenoid that you want to bypass for a longer period of time) to the "hot" large lug. All you have done is bypass the solenoid-- would be the same to all devices "down-stream" as if the signal wire and solenoid are working as they should. Clearly, you need to determine if the solenoid you are bypassing should be hot only while cranking, or hot all the time the engine is on.

Brett

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #39 – August 05, 2012, 12:05:27 pm

I will never forget the look on one of our electricians face - he failed to check the other side of a bulkhead when mounting a battle lantern bracket. He drilled into a 4160 volt emergency power cable... Vaporized the drill bit.

Use a decent sized screwdriver. Goggles would be a plus along with sunglasses

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #40 – August 05, 2012, 01:15:09 pm

Tony, RE: Can I try jumping the starter solenoid next to the isolator or only jump solenoid located on the starter?

First thing I would do, with ignition key off, is to put 12-volts to the small control terminal on the start-solenoid mounted near the isolator. This will close the start solenoid which will send power to the control terminal on the starter-mounted solenoid, which lets very high current to flow from start battery bank to starter motor. (12 volt source is available on isolator side terminal)

If this works, is does not indicate what the problem is, it just tells you all is well with your starter, Foretravel start solenoid, start battery bank and heavy battery cables. This is a simple and important test which tells you if the problem is in the low-current up front section or in the heavy current back section.

From my engine start wiring flow write-up you will find that there is a relay on the front panel that sends voltage to the isolator-panel start solenoid when Allison is in neutral and ignition key is in start position. A meter on the relay wires will indicate if Allison is sending its neutral voltage and if ignition key is sending its start position voltage.

Let us know if you need help following the write-up.

Looks like with this one problem you have learned about electrical circuits on your Foretravel which can keep you from being towed. Enjoy the journey.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #41 – August 05, 2012, 06:16:42 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – August 05, 2012, 01:15:09 pm

Tony, RE: Can I try jumping the starter solenoid next to the isolator or only jump solenoid located on the starter?

First thing I would do, with ignition key off, is to put 12-volts to the small control terminal on the start-solenoid mounted near the isolator. This will close the start solenoid which will send power to the control terminal on the starter-mounted solenoid, which lets very high current to flow from start battery bank to starter motor. (12 volt source is available on isolator side terminal)

If this works, is does not indicate what the problem is, it just tells you all is well with your starter, Foretravel start solenoid, start battery bank and heavy battery cables. This is a simple and important test which tells you if the problem is in the low-current up front section or in the heavy current back section.

From my engine start wiring flow write-up you will find that there is a relay on the front panel that sends voltage to the isolator-panel start solenoid when Allison is in neutral and ignition key is in start position. A meter on the relay wires will indicate if Allison is sending its neutral voltage and if ignition key is sending its start position voltage.

Let us know if you need help following the write-up.

Looks like with this one problem you have learned about electrical circuits on your Foretravel which can keep you from being towed. Enjoy the journey.

Starters rarely just quit working, they usually exhibit some symptoms first like dragging, abnormally slow cranking, skipping. If the starter itself has given up the ghost you should still hear the solenoid engaging when you hit the key. If you don't hear this, chances are you've got a problem upstream. If the solenoid on the starter is out (you can hear it engage but it's not cranking which means the coil is ok), you can usually change out the heavy copper contacts in the solenoid, an easy and cheap fix rather than replacing the whole starter assembly.

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #42 – August 05, 2012, 07:15:19 pm

Hi All,

I went and purchased a 4 gauge x 24" cable at Advance Auto to jump the starter as was mentioned here and by John on the telephone. Once I found the proper connections on the starter solenoid and had someone working the remote start switch the engine came alive on the second crank and I drove directly to the truck mechanics shop in Baltimore.
Once there I shut down and prepared to leave the coach which took about 1/2 an hour, so before I left the coach I tried starting it again using the ignition key and it started right up! Now with the recent high Dew points here in the Baltimore area plus the scorching heat and enormous humidity it could have been a condensation problem, along with dirty contacts, anyway, the mechanic Mike will check out.
I was bringing the coach to them anyway as they were going to install the 4 new Continentals HSR 2 Eco Plus tires I had ordered plus check a few other items on my punch list.

You are correct this has increased my level of understanding quite a bit but I still for some reason struggle with a clear understanding of electrical systems! I am not sure why as I usually can grasp most workings of RV systems and other things I do not use on a day to day basis, well at least fundamentally, in a short time but when it comes to understanding the workings of electrical systems I just cannot visualize how they work and is always a big dark blank in my mind!

I will try harder at understanding especially at trying to follow Barry's flow write up and apply his step by step instructions as soon as we see what the mechanic determines the problem is after his inspection.

I want to again thank everyone for their postings and diagnostic instructions, this forum is such a wonderful resource to be a part of, a genuine testimony to all the wonderful forum members who reside here and do not hesitate to lend their support!

Tony

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #43 – August 05, 2012, 07:28:19 pm

"Starters rarely just quit working, they usually exhibit some symptoms first like dragging, abnormally slow cranking, skipping......"

Chuck,

I agree but as I had mentioned previously I was surprised it did not start the other night because even though I store this coach in a nonelectrical storage area I have been very diligent in exercising the generator, making sure the batteries have a charge, plus each and everytime I have started the engine it has been real strong cranking without hesitation and starting on second or third turn.

I have the engine serviced regularly so I think it might be some dirty connections and some other failed system as you say upstream. It is certainly beyond my electrical comprehension so we will see what the mechanic finds and I will post the results.

Thank you
Tony

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #44 – August 05, 2012, 08:01:46 pm

Hi Tony,
What load range are the new tires? What was the pricing on the tires? Did they give you any $$$ for your take offs? Is McCarthy a Continental dealer?
Thanks,
Raymond

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #45 – August 05, 2012, 10:45:56 pm

Hi Ray,

The Continentals are LR H and I got them from local automobile Ford dealer during the Ford big tire sale in May, paid little over $500 each, no install fee. The local dealer could not install these tires so Ford shipped to McCarthy who will do the installation at $30.00 a tire don't know if they will give $$$ for take offs.

McCarthy is a Continental Tire dealer but couldn't match Ford's price.

Tony

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #46 – August 06, 2012, 06:59:15 am

Good deal, you saved yourself a service call or tow.

Quote from: Tony Pasquale – August 05, 2012, 07:28:19 pm

It is certainly beyond my electrical comprehension so we will see what the mechanic finds and I will post the results.

You don't really think the coach is going to pull this trick with the mechanic around do you? Ha! Like you say the problem is most likely a dirty/corroded/loose contact somewhere in the low amperage control part of the system.

There's nothing simple about the wiring on a motorhome. We are fortunate in that Foretravel does a nice neat job of running, sizing, organizing and labeling wires. A house only has to run on mains power. This house has to have all the wiring of a house, and a car, possibly a trailer, has to run on four different electrical systems, chassis battery, house batteries, generator, shore power at a minimum, and has the capability of generating and creating 120 volt power from batteries thru inverter, life support like propane detectors, brakelights.... I am constantly amazed at the ingenuity and durability of the system as a whole.

About the only way to fix this stuff is to isolate and focus on the individual system. We're fortunate in that there are some folks, several who posted answers, who have made a study of these systems and I've yet to see an electrical problem they couldn't identify,isolate, simplify and diagnose. Most have found that unless you're going to the factory for service that it's best to put the effort into learning the basics as the only thing more frustrating than endlessly searching for the problem youself is paying someone 100/hr to do the same. (No knock on your mechanic here, but out on the road it's definitely the luck of the draw finding someone capable.) There are some good "12 volt bibles" that can help a lot in comprehending.

Good going, you got her cranked that's the important thing.

Chuck

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #47 – August 07, 2012, 06:46:14 am

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – August 06, 2012, 06:59:15 am

Good deal, you saved yourself a service call or tow.

You don't really think the coach is going to pull this trick with the mechanic around do you? Ha! Like you say the problem is most likely a dirty/corroded/loose contact somewhere in the low amperage control part of the system.

There's nothing simple about the wiring on a motorhome. We are fortunate in that Foretravel does a nice neat job of running, sizing, organizing and labeling wires. A house only has to run on mains power. This house has to have all the wiring of a house, and a car, possibly a trailer, has to run on four different electrical systems, chassis battery, house batteries, generator, shore power at a minimum, and has the capability of generating and creating 120 volt power from batteries thru inverter, life support like propane detectors, brakelights.... I am constantly amazed at the ingenuity and durability of the system as a whole.

About the only way to fix this stuff is to isolate and focus on the individual system. We're fortunate in that there are some folks, several who posted answers, who have made a study of these systems and I've yet to see an electrical problem they couldn't identify,isolate, simplify and diagnose. Most have found that unless you're going to the factory for service that it's best to put the effort into learning the basics as the only thing more frustrating than endlessly searching for the problem youself is paying someone 100/hr to do the same. (No knock on your mechanic here, but out on the road it's definitely the luck of the draw finding someone capable.) There are some good "12 volt bibles" that can help a lot in comprehending.

Good going, you got her cranked that's the important thing.

Chuck

Thanks Chuck so very well put your description has made feel much better about my lack of understanding of the motorhome electrical systems! Kudos!

Plus you are exactly right the coach started right up for the mechanic yesterday when he tried it and he was so upset because he was not sure if he would be able to diagnose the orignial problem!

Tony

Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over

Reply #48 – August 07, 2012, 10:01:39 am

I had the same problem EXCEPT, I could start it with the rear start. Happened one time, probably 30 starts ago. Now that its working for you, have you checked the rear start to make sure it works?

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