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Topic: Fiberglass bonding failure (Read 2211 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #25 –
OK....
The new bonding is still very tight and shows no sign of movement.  I took it out this morning and did the angle up approach to a steep driveway. The glass still moves way to much, but still, only the driver side moves.  I called James at FT and he suggested I check the rear floor to frame bolts. Took the torque wrench and only found one loose, certainly not enough to allow the whole coach to overly twist.  Any other ideas?  James said my best bet is to bring it to them..... Hmmm, that is a 4000 mile round trip, 2000 of them worrying about the front glass popping out. I live in N. Calif and would prefer not to do that.  I do have another call into James

Any-other Ideas?

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #26 –
Steve,

Can you better describe the "rear floor to frame bolts" he had you check?

Guess I am having trouble connecting windshield movement with something 30' behind it.

Brett
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #27 –
I did not get it either, but all but one was tight so I dont think that was the issue.  Here are pics of what he suggested.  On the second call to him, he said that if I was absolutly sure the dash bulkhead and front cap joint was no longer flexing then it must be a sealant/adhesive issue around the glass.  Mine has none and my glass company said there should be none.... Anyway James said not only do they set the glass to rubber in with a Vulkem product, they also use it for the rubber to fiberglass cap.  Again, mine had none.... he wanted me to bring it to him, but that is a 4000 mile round trip!

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #28 –
Quote from: El_Dorado –
OK....
The new bonding is still very tight and shows no sign of movement.  I took it out this morning and did the angle up approach to a steep driveway. The glass still moves way to much, but still, only the driver side moves.  I called James at FT and he suggested I check the rear floor to frame bolts. Took the torque wrench and only found one loose, certainly not enough to allow the whole coach to overly twist.  Any other ideas?  James said my best bet is to bring it to them..... Hmmm, that is a 4000 mile round trip, 2000 of them worrying about the front glass popping out. I live in N. Calif and would prefer not to do that.  I do have another call into James

Any-other Ideas?

I ran foretravel stores back then and I sold and have driven numerous u225 and u240's and I used to take unihomes and put the right front tire on a tall curb and have the customer get out and see empty air under the left front tire and the entry door still opened.

Answered all their questions about how strong it was.  Their trade in would not do that so what could they say.

Let james look at it.  The windshields do move.  I used to off road these and I have twisted the enough to pop the glass out of the molding at a corner more than once.  I twisted my u320's right windshield out last trip.  Chassis main air valve stuck open occasionally coach if down for leveling would not air up.  Tire rubs the floor in the front on a 97 and a short drive in an uneven area twisted the coach.  Especially twist in an off camber driveway.  And it's 20 years old. 

Another old motorhome memory.  The  torsilastic " rubber baby bumpers " as my sales man roger Tischendorf used to call them get harder from ozone as they get older.  And lose suspension compliance.  The coach gets stiffer corner to corner especially.  The eagle bus boys mentioned this fact many times.  They sag and get hard.  New was impressive. But needs maintenance.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #29 –
Bob,

There's a difference between strength and deflection. Most modern day structures are designed to some deflection standard. In vehicle design you want some modicum of stiffness to ensure axle alignment. Check out STURAA bus testing standards. One of the tests is to jack up diagonal wheels to check for stiffness. It's gotta be both strong and stiff. Stiffness rules in chassis design.

David
David Brady
Asheville, NC
2004 Prevost H3 Vantare
2002 Wanderlodge LXi (sold)

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #30 –
Quote from: travelite –
Bob,

There's a difference between strength and deflection. Most modern day structures are designed to some deflection standard. In vehicle design you want some modicum of stiffness to ensure axle alignment. Check out STURAA bus testing standards. One of the tests is to jack up diagonal wheels to check for stiffness. It's gotta be both strong and stiff. Stiffness rules in chassis design.

David

Good info.  I can't remember if the 240's twisted more than the 280's.  They may have.  Shorter bottom compartment divider walls may not resist torsional twisting as well a the bigger coaches.  I do remember some difference.  Have to ask my foretravel mechanic about this. 
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #31 –
Quote from: El_Dorado –
  On the second call to him, he said that if I was absolutly sure the dash bulkhead and front cap joint was no longer flexing then it must be a sealant/adhesive issue around the glass. 

It works.  They reset my drivers side windshield which had popped out, carefully bedding both glass and gasket in urethane.  I've had no problems with it and this is with a separated front cap.  I'd sure give that a try.
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #32 –
Chuck, we are going to reset the window and use urethane as suggested.  Sure would hate to think about having to change out the rubber in the "rubber springs". It is really comforting to hear from someone that has the same issue and it was resolved so simply.

Dee (wife) says drive to to Texas if needed.  In the short time we have had it we both have fallen in love with this home.  It is our first motorhome and we moved up to it from many many years of using a pop-up. Our pop ups have been shredded 3 times by bears, hence the big change. With that change we discovered the joy of camping in a home vs. a tent.  We will make it work!

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #33 –

El_Dorado wrote:
"Our pop ups have been shredded 3 times by bears, hence the big change. With that change we discovered the joy of camping in a home vs. a tent.  We will make it work!"

Hilarious!!!

John
Just enjoying life &  friends wherever we  park


 '91 Foretravel U300/'94 Foretravel U280

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #34 –
El Dorado,

When FT sets new glass the coach has to sit on a flat surface for a min of 24 hours.  No leveling jacks and no driving.  As far as the urethane, I'd look for the right stuff for glass for sure.  I have heard a time or two that so and so had their windshield urethaned in, made it crack don't know veracity.  I do know it's SOP for lots of coaches with this common problem.
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #35 –
Quote from: El_Dorado –
Chuck, we are going to reset the window and use urethane as suggested.  Sure would hate to think about having to change out the rubber in the "rubber springs". It is really comforting to hear from someone that has the same issue and it was resolved so simply.

Dee (wife) says drive to to Texas if needed.  In the short time we have had it we both have fallen in love with this home.  It is our first motorhome and we moved up to it from many many years of using a pop-up. Our pop ups have been shredded 3 times by bears, hence the big change. With that change we discovered the joy of camping in a home vs. a tent.  We will make it work!

Less stiff ride was the results of changing the torsilastic as I remember.  Ozone hardens it.  Ask Triana
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #36 –
Urethane should be fine as long as you don't make it too thick. It needs to expand and contract to accommodate the naturela movement of the chassis. Make sure you get good instructions on how to apply the urethane.

As far as the bond of the body to the dash area, failure in the Grand Villa is very common. On the U225, the chrome handles above the access panels were added to add a mechanical bond between the skin and the dash bolster. This is the first time I have heard of the separation causing problems with the windshield glass however, but I guess it is possible. Usually there is just a "Wind Storm" coming up between the dash and the front cap. It makes wind noise and lets dirt in through the opening.

The guys at FOT that were working in the plant in the 90's and both James and Rance at Xtreme are familiar with this problem and have fixed many coaches, including mine. It sounds like you have affected the necessary fiberglass repairs and my guess is that when the windshield is properly seated you won't have anymore problems. If you do have any more problems I suggest taking the coach to NAC for a final resolution. 
The selected media item is not currently available.Kent Speers
Locust Grove, OK
1993 U300 SSE 40' (Restored at FOT 2009) Build 4323
720 watts Solar
6V92TA DDEC Silver Engine
2014 Subaru Outback

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #37 –
I am assuming (bad word) that the photos I have attached are a result of the windshield shifting as a result of the bonding failure(?). I had intended to replace the windshield in our GV in the future because of the fogging along the edges. Well it looks like the future has arrived. Have an appointment in Meccadoches to replace the windshields, gaskets and repair the bonding issue.

Roland
1993 U280 4341
2010 Jeep Liberty
The Pied Pipers

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #38 –
As a follow-up on a do-it yourself fix for the separation and moving front glass. It has been over 4 months and 2500 miles since the fix.  At first, there was a bit of groaning from the coach as it flexed but no movement of the glass. On an Idaho trip, we really flexed the coach getting off a road to a shoulder. I thought for sure that would move the glass, but it was rock solid.  Front horizontal bulkhead is still attached solid, glass and rubber gasket were set using urethane generously. All in all it was an easy fix and I would say at this point a permanent repair.  We are so glad, because just to enter or leave our driveway, makes the coach want to flex and Mrs. El Dorado was so worried that the driveway may require getting rid of the Foretravel if it could not go in and out without the front windshield moving so much that it left a gap between the glass and rubber.  The urethane used was the kind that did not require a primer and it was used straight out of the tube.  I forget the brand.......

Good luck on your glass change-out and I am sure you are in much better hands than mine

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #39 –
Roland, you sure have had a bad string of luck. I have had two Grand Villas and have only seen that windshield thing occur once. I backed the drivers rear wheels of into a ditch. The glass separated like that but an auto glass guy came out and pushed it back in place and it has never done it again. If you didn't stress the chassis then you may have a real problem but if you did stress it, the window separation is pretty common and no big deal. My windshield repair was $50.

Sure wish you better luck in the future.
The selected media item is not currently available.Kent Speers
Locust Grove, OK
1993 U300 SSE 40' (Restored at FOT 2009) Build 4323
720 watts Solar
6V92TA DDEC Silver Engine
2014 Subaru Outback

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #40 –
Roland,
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the windshield issue springs from that major bulkhead issue you experienced. Even if there is a FG bonding failure, the loss of basement integrity might have been first cause. Just a WAG from a bulkhead junkie... :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: :headwall:
Don
Quote from: Roland Begin –
I am assuming (bad word) that the photos I have attached are a result of the windshield shifting as a result of the bonding failure(?). I had intended to replace the windshield in our GV in the future because of the fogging along the edges. Well it looks like the future has arrived. Have an appointment in Meccadoches to replace the windshields, gaskets and repair the bonding issue.

Roland
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #41 –

We used 3M 8690 on all the new MBZs we shipped to the U.S. The Germans wanted the windshield to pop out in an accident and the U.S. wanted it to stay put so part of the federalization was to apply this stuff between the windshield and the rubber. I understand a lot of tubes of 8690 have been arriving dried up lately. Good reviews for a competing brand CRL/Somaca Hi-Viscosity Auto Glass Urethane Adhesive - 10.1 Fl. Oz. Cartridge -  that is half the price. They all meet FMVSS 212 and 208.

Make sure it wear gloves as once you get it on your hands or any part of the car, it's hard to get off and if it gets on any carpet/fabric, it's there to stay. All the tubes we bought were black. Goes on with a typical caulk gun. Check specs as some stay more flexible than others while others cure to a more rigid state.

Some people have used the firmer cure to repair engine/rubber mounts.

Pierce

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Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #42 –
Kent

Not bad luck, poor planning, could have avoided all this with a good inspection by someone that knew Foretravels. Shoulda got on the Forum BEFORE we purchased. Still have a roof issue that I will have to deal with in the future, it doesn't look pretty now but it doesn't leak so it's all good.

Don

The windshield was fogged up on the edges when we bought the rig. That says that there was some delamination going on there. The bulkhead failure probably did not help much. I can't remember "shocking" the coach enough to cause this problem. I checked your bonding failure post then took a look at my coach and could see that there is an issue there. Figured it would be just as well to have Meccadoches replace the windshield and deal with everything else at the same time. Not rushing there, appointment is in early March, we have places to go and things to see. Long as everything hangs together we will be OK. Just keeping a close eye on things if it gets to "badder" guess I'll have to use some kinda band-aid.

Roland
1993 U280 4341
2010 Jeep Liberty
The Pied Pipers
 

Re: Fiberglass bonding failure

Reply #43 –
If you still have the separation at the edge of the windshield, they fixed ours by backing a pickup close to the front end and standing on the tailgate. The repairman then started pushing on the glass, by hand, and nudging the glass back in place a little at a time. He used a little hook tool like a screw driver to manipulate the rubber seal and make sure it didn't fold under as the windshield re-seated itself. He also said he sometimes used a spray bottle of water to lubricate the rubber and in colder weather used a heat gun to warm up and soften the rubber seal before trying to push the glass back in place. It didn't appear that it took a lot of skill, just patience. He also mentioned if you push too hard you could crack the windshield so take it slow and easy.

Ours was the lower corner on the passenger side so if yours is the upper corner the pickup bed may not be high enough. He said trying to apply the required pressure from a ladder is very difficult. Some sort of scaffold may be needed. He wasn't a very big or young guy so it is more persistence than strength.

Our windshield still moves slightly when the chassis is torqued, I turn the coach around in the yard before I park it, but it never has popped out again.
The selected media item is not currently available.Kent Speers
Locust Grove, OK
1993 U300 SSE 40' (Restored at FOT 2009) Build 4323
720 watts Solar
6V92TA DDEC Silver Engine
2014 Subaru Outback