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Topic: Fuel priming pump arrives! (Read 915 times) previous topic - next topic

Fuel priming pump arrives!

Well... it's been a long week, but my Sis let me know my new priming pump arrived at their place today. So, bright and early tomorrow morning I'm driving the hour up there to install a pump that actually pumps -- change-out the filters, get smelly like diesel fuel again, and fire her up!

I've become in a short period of time (just coming on a month since I acquired the beast) -- almost obsessed with working through details in my head on the weekdays about what I'm going to do the next time I'm able to lay hands on wrenches and crawl under it.

And oh! -- yes, I promise -- never again will I use starting fluid. Does anyone know if the 1993-vintage CAT 3176B has the intake manifold heater that is so non-compatible from a danger and damage point of view -- with ether?

Safe motoring,

Michael

1995 U300SE CAT
1992 Saab 9000 non-turbo 5-speed (soon to be the toad)
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #1 –
Quote from: geomm –
Well... it's been a long week, but my Sis let me know my new priming pump arrived at their place today. So, bright and early tomorrow morning I'm driving the hour up there to install a pump that actually pumps -- change-out the filters, get smelly like diesel fuel again, and fire her up!

I've become in a short period of time (just coming on a month since I acquired the beast) -- almost obsessed with working through details in my head on the weekdays about what I'm going to do the next time I'm able to lay hands on wrenches and crawl under it.

And oh! -- yes, I promise -- never again will I use starting fluid. Does anyone know if the 1993-vintage CAT 3176B has the intake manifold heater that is so non-compatible from a danger and damage point of view -- with ether?

Safe motoring,

Michael

1995 U300SE CAT
1992 Saab 9000 non-turbo 5-speed (soon to be the toad)
Michael,
    Don't get too excited about never using ether in your engine. If not done to excess it will not "cause major damage to your engine." A quick blast is all you need unless something is wrong. That is where most people go wrong by continuing to spray. I'm sure you know this. Your coach actually has an ether injection system on it. To the left of the parking brake knob you will see the "ETHER START" switch. In the engine compartment, as you look into the rear of the coach, on the left side behind the hydraulic fluid reservoir you will see the ether canister and it's plumbing. There is a small plastic tube that runs up to the intake manifold. I never used mine and disconnected it because I don't want some malfunction or accidentally bumping into the switch to fill the manifold with ether. I know some of the Cummins coaches have the ETHER START system also.
Good luck,
Rick
Rick

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #2 –
Rick,

It is not fear of engine damage that suggests that one not use ether.  It is the intake manifold heater.  Ether coming in contact with a red hot heater grid can cause an explosion.

Call the Caterpillar RV Hotline or go by any Caterpillar dealer parts departement with your serial number to see if your engine has one: 877 777-3126.

BTW, most modern engines DO have intake manifold heaters-- Caterpillar and Cummins.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #3 –
A lot of engines use warming grids and Brett is quite correct about the dangers of ether and a possible fire. The factory ether installation may spray the ether downwind from the heating grid. Naturally, ether sprayed into the air cleaner goes right through the heating grid.

Big pocketbook issues are related to engines that are warm and for some reason, won't start. Could be a filter change, etc., that keeps the engine from lighting off right away. When the ether is sprayed into a warm engine while attempting to start, the piston may be only part way up to the usual number of degrees before top dead center to where the injector does it's thing. The connecting rod is nowhere close to being parallel with the cylinder walls so an early explosion puts a huge load on the rod and it can be easily bend or even break. We had a new 8V-71 that experienced a coolant leak into the cylinder. Just the starter motor was enough to bend the connecting rod. Took a while to figure out why the engine vibrated. So, just consider a warm engine with several cylinders firing and already part of the way up to idle speed when the ether detonates in a cylinder. There is nothing to time the explosion, just the temperature of the compressing air. So, instead of using the explosion to push the piston down and turn the crankshaft, the piston tries to go the opposite direction.

Piston rings also take a lot of abuse from ether and the large over pressures it can create. Goes for bearings, head gaskets, etc. also. A lot of engines that have been torn down for an early overhaul because of poor starting or excessive oil consumption have broken rings. Guess why.

To top it off, many years ago, there was a guy in our county that could not get his D-8 Cat to start. Sprayed and sprayed ether until the partially (from the pony motor) running engine broke a connecting rod. The block may also have had an explosive mix of ether from loss past the rings. Anyway, the rod came out the side of the block causing a piece to fly up and hit him on the side of the head. Fatal mistake.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #4 –
I was always under the assumption that ether, WD40, or anything similar is used on a cold engine not a warm or hot engine. I have used both on a CAT that had been sitting in below freezing temps for a couple weeks with no adverse effects. And it did not take much spray to get the engine started either. NEVER used the stuff on a warm or hot engine. Seems the ether button on the dash is a lot of temptation to start a stubborn engine warm, hot or cold. No danger on my coach as the ether cylinder is empty and will stay that way.

Roland
1993 U280 4341
2010 Jeep Liberty
The Pied Pipers

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #5 –
Roland,

Actually not an issue with a hot engine, as the intake manifold heater does not come on if the engine is at operating temperature. It only comes on when the engine is cold.  Length of time it runs, both before and after starting is dependent on  ambient temperature.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
The connecting rod is nowhere close to being parallel with the cylinder walls so an early explosion puts a huge load on the rod and it can be easily bend or even break. We had a new 8V-71 that experienced a coolant leak into the cylinder. Just the starter motor was enough to bend the connecting rod. Took a while to figure out why the engine vibrated. So, just consider a warm engine with several cylinders firing and already part of the way up to idle speed when the ether detonates in a cylinder. There is nothing to time the explosion, just the temperature of the compressing air. So, instead of using the explosion to push the piston down and turn the crankshaft, the piston tries to go the opposite direction.
Pierce

Nice explanation.  Could be why a couple guys I know who work on big iron sportfishermen call it "crack in a can."

 It is really good for cleaning parts though. 

Chuck
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #7 –
Would like to suggest you put a little lube/oil in the new pump to make it work nice and smooth befor e installing it, I use silicone grease in em.
Cheers
Dave M

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #8 –
Well, chaps,

Please see my new posting about the pump install and prime attempt. Things are not going according to plan.

 :-[
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")
 

Re: Fuel priming pump arrives!

Reply #9 –
We had an old Gardner diesel in a fishing boat back in the mists of time.  You started it by cranking a large flywheel up to speed and then engaging the flywheel and hoped it would start.  In winter we would hold burning newspaper against the intake and when it started it would suck the paper right in.  We did not use ether after one of our number used ether AND the burning paper together while we were about 12 miles out and had let the engine cool all day.  Kinda livened up the day though.

Best engine ever for longevity.  Used in boats, ships, buses and trucks as well as railway locomotives.  There are a lot of them still running long after others have gone to scrap.  Emissions and the lack of demand for low revving engines meant the end.

Keith
Keith, Joyce & Smokey the Australian Cattle Dog
1995 U320 SE Extreme 40' WTBI Build # 4780, with a Honda CR-V hopefully still following behind.
Motorcade # 17030
FMCA # F422159