Pre Purchase Inspection

Topic: Pre Purchase Inspection (Read 1174 times) previous topic - next topic

Pre Purchase Inspection

March 06, 2013, 12:28:56 pm

Yes, the "Clueless Wannabe (+DW)" here, with another question which I thought deserved a new thread.

We made our 1st pilgrimage to Nacogdoches last week. Spent a very informative and productive day at MOT with Mel Cordray, examining several pre-owned coaches. We only found one that really interested us, a '98 U320 40' (on consignment). Naturally, it is priced way above our "target price range", making the buying decision very difficult. Since returning home, my wife and I have been trying to analyze the pros and cons of that particular unit, in an attempt to justify (to ourselves) the possible purchase. We definitely want a Foretravel, but also want the best value for our money.

We liked, very much, everything we could "see" about this particular coach. The exterior and interior condition, the beautiful (OEM) furnishings and color scheme, the floor plan, the generous storage compartments...all was great. It totally sold us on the 40' WTFE floor plan as being the one we want. Our big questions have to do with the things we can't see - the "health" and condition of all the myriad mechanical and electrical systems and devices. My reading on this forum has convinced me of the wisdom (no, the necessity) of having a pre purchase inspection done. There is no way I, a complete RV novice, can accurately assess the true condition, and therefore value, of this coach. I cannot (will not) make a firm purchase bid to MOT without knowing the results of a thorough PPI. Buying a motor home is a BIG financial stretch for my wife and I - we don't want to end up with "a pig in a poke". No offense to MOT - as a consignment dealer, they simply broker the deal for the owner, they do not guarantee the condition of the coach. It is a classic Caveat Emptor situation for the buyer.

I called Brett Wolfe yesterday to see about his availability. Unfortunately, he is just about leave on a several week long trip at sea (sailboat?) So he is out of the picture. I feel that we need to get this inspection done ASAP. We don't want to keep Mel hanging indefinitely, and we also don't want to miss out on a (possibly) great coach because of our indecision. We are not the only potential buyers eyeballing this particular unit, I am sure.

So, the big question: who else, besides Brett, is fully qualified (and available on short notice) to do a complete Pre purchase inspection? I mean checking everything, top to bottom, by closely following the "50 Things To Check Before You Buy..." checklist on this forum. I would hope for a knowledgeable, impartial, and meticulous individual who would provide the same great service (and educational experience) as Brett Wolfe. I will, of course, expect to reimburse them at the going rate.

We will appreciate any suggestions from the group. As I said, timing is somewhat critical, so that may turn out to be a big deciding factor.

Thanks again for all the encouraging comments and suggestions, both on and off the forum.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #1 – March 06, 2013, 12:38:04 pm

About the best help I can offer: PDI

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #2 – March 06, 2013, 01:00:13 pm

I would contact Foretravel and see if they would do a PDI on the coach. It will cost you some money, but it will be worth the investment even if you do not purchase.
Two years ago we were looking at SOB and told the selling dealership that we wanted to have an independent inspector look at the coach. I told the dealer that if they did not agree that was a dealer "killer". The dealer reluctantly agreed and took the coach the inspector's shop. The inspector found $10000 of repairs that needed to be done. Even with that knowledge we proceeded to make an offer on the coach. We were not able to come to agreement on the price of this coach and therefore we are still looking. It is interesting that some dealer's think that it is a seller's market in the motorhome business.
Reese

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #3 – March 06, 2013, 01:06:24 pm

Probably better to make an offer at a price you are comfortable with contingent on a "satisfactory" pre purchase inspection. Why spend money on a coach if you don't know if the owner will accept your price?

Why not negotiate a deal first at your price, and then have the PPI done at your expense?.

What PPI will MOT do for free on the items listed below? They won't mis-represent the coach, but understand the need for an independent inspection prior to closing transaction, still you can find out a lot about expensive items for free by asking about the high cost items.

Has the coach sat or been used. Used is WAY better, as stuff that sits tends to need maintenance at first when you get it going again. Was it stored under cover? Did it spend a LOT of time in coastal areas which would make it more corrosion prone?

Biggest challenge that you have is owners often owe more that the market value of the coach to a bank, so price can sometime be driven by bank balance outstanding rather than market value. Usually FOT and MOT wont take on those coaches because they just sit and take up space on the lot.

Things that can cost the most money on a coach of this age

Refrigerator (Best to replace with residential - cheaper and safer than RV unit - plenty of threads here)

Batteries - House and coach

Tires - How old are they via date code on sidewall

Bulkheads - usually a non issue and generally a relatively cheap fix if an issue is found - but a good inspection is warranted

Aquahot - usually just needs service - but if burner is damaged or pump goes out, can cost a dollar or two

Headlight conversion? Most that drive at night like the converted headlights

Entry step - Common on these units for bottom most entry step to rot over time - again, relatively cheap fix, but take a good look, is the step "spongy" or uneven? If so, closer look is warranted

Brakes - usually a non issue, but if pins hang and the brakes "drag", some money can be spent on getting things back in order

With a non slide unit, no issues around the slide bladder, etc. to worry about

Make an offer you can live with, budget 10% of purchase price in first year of ownership for "stuff" to be fixed and you probably won't be "surprised"

Do you like the interior and exterior finish? Can cost a bit if you want to change, cheaper to buy something you like -

As for the drive train, if the fluids have been changed (are the service records available?) per factory recommendations, chances are the drive train is fine and the least of your worries. Horror stories on engine and transmissions issues are few and far between.

Radiators have been know to leak, usually "Bars leak" treatment will fix (did with mine), but again, that would likely be covered in the 10% reserve.

an always remember - time is your friend, if you miss this coach, there is always going to be another (as my DW would say) "this week's deal of a lifetime"!

Good Luck, PM me if you want to talk live.

BTW, member Don Hay lives in NAC as well.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #4 – March 06, 2013, 01:08:01 pm

FOT is a PDI possibility, but since they compete with MOT, I am not sure that they would do it or be considered "independent", probably the same in reverse. Wouldn't hurt to ask both MOT and FOT about that, since they are 2 miles apart!

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #5 – March 06, 2013, 01:30:15 pm

Totally agree with Tim's assessment. You can visually inspect the coach inside and out including the engine compartment with a test drive and make a determination whether you are really interested in this coach.

These will seem like very big numbers, but when it comes to motorhomes unfortunately big numbers is the name of the game. Depending on your tastes and the condition of the coach you can spend between five and $15,000 in first year of ownership. Remember a set of tires is around $4000. Bulkhead repairs could be as much as $1000. There's just a lot of money needed to keep a beautiful machine like a Foretravel in mint condition. But once you've done all the remodels, upgrades and needed maintenance first year, it's much better in the subsequent years of ownership.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #6 – March 06, 2013, 05:58:00 pm

I would veto the PDI by FOT. First of all they are booked until the end of April per another post. Second I had one done after I bought my coach and was unimpressed with the results.

Third the PDI was billed as 7 hours. Ouch...

I would make an offer with the condition that sale is contingent on inspection by Brett.

Tim is right there will be another coach you will love. Maybe not next week but some week later.

see ya
ken

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #7 – March 06, 2013, 06:23:37 pm

I wonder if someone could track down Derrek. He was the head of service there and was also at FOT. He might be a great go to guy if he has the time.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #8 – March 06, 2013, 07:26:24 pm

Derek went to run the family business, locally.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #9 – March 06, 2013, 09:16:52 pm

Yes I know and he has the car washes. I was just thinking he would be a good person to do pdi once or twice a month

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #10 – March 07, 2013, 12:15:51 pm

Lots of good suggestions here, which we appreciate. However, we may have "solved" the problem...by (temporarily) postponing it. We just made what would probably constitute a "low ball" cash offer on the '98. Our salesman, although sympathetic and supportive, felt it was unlikely the owners would come down to our offer. That being the case, we will save our (pre purchase inspection) money for now, and hopefully be ready to spend it on a more likely (i.e. affordable, for us) candidate. We will continue to monitor this forum for any and all leads on clean, well maintained, well documented coaches, with our primary interest being the '96 to '98 40' WTFE's.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #11 – March 07, 2013, 12:37:17 pm

Unless you offered less than $10 for it, you might be surprised. The sellers may have indicated a willingness to come down, but they probably did not give any minimum price. If they had, all you would have to do is ask "What's the least these people will take for this?" and the salesman would have had to tell you. That would effectively set their minimum as the selling price. The salesman will simply take your offer to the sellers and pass their response back to you.

When we had our mpg on consignment we actually received two offers on it. The first was less than asking price, and we were about to counter it when I happened to ask whether this was the couple who had communicated directly with me a couple of weeks earlier. It turned out that they were working with one salesman, and another person was working with a different salesman. A quick office consultation and a phone call or two resulted in the couple who had talked to me making a full-price offer. Even though you are the buyer, you might want to ask whether anyone else in the sales office is working on a deal on "your" coach.

Be prepared for a counter offer, but don't be too surprised if your offer is accepted, particularly if the coach has been there for some time. Good luck.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #12 – March 07, 2013, 01:19:23 pm

Salesman has a responsibility to present your offer to seller, did he ?

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #13 – March 07, 2013, 05:30:17 pm

Agree with David. With $4/gal fuel, slow economy, winter for a few more days, don't be in a hurry. Lots of good Foretravels out there.

A lot of car salesmen don't want to have to do any work. Make him "make it work."

Pierce

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #14 – March 07, 2013, 05:46:48 pm

I am going to go out on a limb here. I think MOT and FOT both do a pretty good PDI when they bring in the coach. I do not think I would kill a deal or hire a person to look it over. This process started a short while ago and we had a couple members volunteer to go and look it over for the person to save them a long trip. It has worked into not buying a unit until Brett or someone else looks it over. I know I looked mine over myself. I did not miss much and knew most of what i was getting but still missed a couple things. MOT found a couple for me too. In buying a used unit your big expenses are delamination, engine and tranny and aquahot. You buy a 90s vintage expect to have to change out the AC units and maybe the heater as well some point in time. At that point it is wear and tear. If you run the engine and listen and drive the coach you will see if the engine and tranny are working. The PDI is not going to tell you much more. Aquahot is simple is it working. I bought my coach and was at MOT in Jan for a month. It was working fine then on the way home sprang a leak and last summer it again started leaking. It is the elbows that wear and leak engine coolant. IT is an issue. The bulkhead has way too much concern in my opinion too. It is an easy fix if it is truly broken and probably should be addressed even if it is not. If it is fine then that is on the buyer. Tires and fluids are the last thing. If the date code is ok on the tires you can change all the fluids for a baseline start.

Sure it is nice to have piece of mind of a person looking it over but stuff is going to brake and will need to be repaired after you own it and if you test everything prior you will know it is all working. This is not aimed at any one individual but rather a general observation.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #15 – March 07, 2013, 07:44:33 pm

I agree with John. If you're buying a coach with a limited budget you'd best be prepared to deal with problems as they occur. A PDI from a pro like Brett can catch the the known problems but short of carrying Brett along with you on your travels you will need to be able to diagnose and fix on your own (with the aid of the many knowledgeable folks on the forum). Either that, or the open checkbook technique, also a valid method of dealing with problems.

Nobody can tell you how long your refrigerator, air conditoners, microwave, inverter/charger/audit system/air leveling/water pump/heaters/radiator/alternator et.al will last. As far as engine/drivetrain/tires and so forth go, that's all checkable by drive test, visually, and oil and coolant analysis, all of which you can do on your own. Other than that, visual inspection of wiring under dash, general plumbing condition, body condition, water intrusion and so forth can be accomplished by a methodical, comprehensive inspection of every nook and cranny. A general underbody inspection should reveal no signs of major damage, major rust (there will always be some surface rust), and bulkhead surfaces mated properly with no waviness from rust swelling. The roof needs to show no major cracks and no unsealed openings. You can tap on the outside fiberglass to detect delaminated or unbonded areas, no coach I've ever checked has been 100% in this regard but you do want the areas around the perimeter of the windshield to be sound as a first priority.

These checks, a long test drive, along with the checklist Barry Beam has published will pretty much eliminate the danger of major errors and omissions. Other than that, you roll the dice and take your chances.

I bought my coach after visual inspection only, didn't even test drive it I've never regretted it, even for a moment. Problems have been minor, fixes easy with the sage advice from forum members.

Chuck

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #16 – March 07, 2013, 08:20:17 pm

Thought we were the only ones who would buy a coach we didn't drive. One coach i asked Tyle and the next coach asked Stew if it drove like a Foretravel should...they said yep. I figured good enough for me. We did spend a couple of nights in the U320 at the MOT lot and found several things they fixed on Monday before we left.

You won't find everything till you stay in it.

Wonderful machines. Nonetheless a machine. Good luck and have fun looking.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #17 – March 07, 2013, 08:28:33 pm

I wrote a post that is pinned on the Discussion section on 50 things to check. You can check all of them yourself. If you have a question after looking then you might want to get second opinion.

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #18 – March 07, 2013, 11:40:53 pm

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments. I hear what you are saying, especially John S and Chuck Pearson. I have read over the "50 Things To Check Before You Buy...", in fact I have read it many times. I agree that there are many items on that list that I could check on my own. There are also many items that are a complete and total mystery to me. I have never owned a motor home of any kind, much less a high-end diesel pusher with Aquahot, air bag suspension and automatic leveling, air disc brakes, Allison transmission with retarder, autostart diesel generator and propane fired refrigerator. One of the main reasons I want a "professional" pre-purchase inspection is so I can follow a more knowledgeable individual around the coach, and learn from them as they check off each item. In my experience, trying to figure out how to operate a complex machine by "trial and error" is inefficient, hard on the equipment, and sometimes even physically painful. In my life, every useful skill I have ever learned was taught to me by On the Job Training. I watched someone else do it as they explained what they were doing, then I did it while they watched over my shoulder, then I did it by myself. OJT taught me how to fly airplanes in the Air Force, control air traffic at a FAA RAPCON, and test high-pressure oil and gas wells all over the world for Schlumberger. I have great faith in the process.

I totally agree that it is possible to buy a Foretravel without a "professional" pre purchase inspection, and end up with a fine coach. Many people on this forum can attest to this. I, however, would prefer having a experienced operator take a close look at all the bits and pieces, and while doing so give me his (or her) "secret tips" on how to operate and maintain each one of them. I feel it is only fair to pay this person for their time and effort. As many have said, there is a steep learning curve when you buy one of these coaches - why make it any more difficult than necessary?

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #19 – March 08, 2013, 08:10:23 am

Quote

One of the main reasons I want a "professional" pre-purchase inspection is so I can follow a more knowledgeable individual around the coach, and learn from them as they check off each item.

@Chuck I think you nailed it!

see ya
ken

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #20 – March 08, 2013, 09:01:43 am

There is a saying that the Good Lord looks out for the feeble-minded. The DW and I are perfect examples of that saying. We were so impressed with the quality, condition, and design of our coach that we bought it without even a test drive!! We have been to Texas and back two years in a row, have traveled all over Wisconsin, and have incurred a "great" deal of expense in that time. Things such as (1) circuit breaker--$5, (2) valve stems--$6,
(1) tire--$560.
You cannot go wrong with a Foretravel! Our coach has stood the test of time and styles. It will still take us anywhere we want to go (except on water or off-road) in style and comfort.
To fully understand the quality of a Foretravel--go look at any of the same year coaches made by one of the "big" companies that are more into volume than quality and longevity!

Re: Pre Purchase Inspection

Reply #21 – March 08, 2013, 11:04:54 am

To learn the systems you get a walk thru with the selling dealership. Mike Rogers does delivery PDI over at MOT. He is very good. I think people are confusing walk thru with per purchase inspection.

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