Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

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Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

April 03, 2013, 12:51:04 pm

Hi everyone,

Can anyone tell me about the 450HP Cummins engine that was available in 1997. Is it an M11 or ISM11? Were both available?

What would be the difference between the two and how can you tell which one you have?

Thanks again for all the help,
Douglas

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #1 – April 03, 2013, 01:16:20 pm

If I remember correctly, Cummins shifted from M11 to ISM in Dec 1998.

My 1999 has a Jan 99 build date and has the M11. Another 99 built a few months later has the ISM. So presumably Foretravel used up the last of their M11 in stock around Feb 99 or so.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #2 – April 03, 2013, 02:07:59 pm

Hello Douglas and welcome to the forum. Listed below is a short summary of the Cummins Model, the years they were built along with the available horse power for each.

Years of Production and available Horse Power

L10 = 1983 to 1991 (240 to 320 hp)
L10 CELECT = 1992 to 1998 (280 to 350 hp)
M11 CELECT = 1994 to 1995 (280 to 350 hp)
M11 CELECT Plus = 1996 to 1998 (280 to 450 hp)
ISM (non-EGR) = 1999 to 2003 (280 to 450 hp)
ISM (EGR) = 2004 to 2010 (280 to 500 hp)
Cummins plans to phase out the ISM for 2011 in favor of the 11.9-liter version of their ISX series.

In 1996, Cummins added electronic controls to improve efficiency. This model became known as the M11 Plus.
The M11 Plus became the ISM when Cummins applied its Interact System (hence the "IS" in ISM) to the M11 Plus to further improve the engine

Designed as a replacement for the original M11 engine, the Cummins ISM began with the CM570 fuel system and progressed with the following:
1.) In 2002, upgraded to the CM875 fuel system which included an EGR valve for EPA emission compliance.
2.) In 2007, upgraded to the CM876 fuel system. This fuel system still includes the EGR, but also added a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) to conform to the new EPA standards.

I hope this gives some insight to your question.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #3 – April 03, 2013, 02:15:18 pm

Thanks Jason. Good info.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #4 – April 03, 2013, 02:44:17 pm

Exactly what I needed to know.

I Googled Cummins Interact System and found some good reading but still unsure...

Is it the "IS" that will allow the use of Silver Leaf or can you use that on the "M11 Plus"?

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #5 – April 03, 2013, 02:59:56 pm

Dates can be off there somewhat. '95 Foretravel U300 (optional)/320 (std) had '94 (up) Celect Plus M11s Cummins rated at 370hp, Foretravel uprated to 400hp. Very fuel thrifty software program through 96 model year. 97 went to 450 hp as I recall.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #6 – April 03, 2013, 04:23:24 pm

Quote

Is it the "IS" that will allow the use of Silver Leaf or can you use that on the "M11 Plus]

I use Silverleaf's VMSPC on my M11 celect plus. ISM may have a few more parameters available.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #7 – April 03, 2013, 04:51:09 pm

The ISM450 in the Foretravel should have the wiring harness along top of valve cover and will have an unused electric connector just past the turbo. If it does, this engine can be uprated to the ISM500/1550 ft lb, no EGR, and using a wastegated type turbo, addition of a intake PSI sensor and new ECM program, in my case about $3,300
Oh joy!
Dave M

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #8 – April 03, 2013, 09:35:22 pm

My 1999 U320 has a build date Jan. 1999 and engine build date of Dec. 1998. Model ISM-R450. Build no. of coach 5522. It appears I may have one of the earlist ISM built

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #9 – April 04, 2013, 01:04:21 am

My 97 is a celect plus 450

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #10 – April 04, 2013, 07:53:54 am

Quote from: Dave Head – April 03, 2013, 02:59:56 pm

Dates can be off there somewhat. '95 Foretravel U300 (optional)/320 (std) had '94 (up) Celect Plus M11s Cummins rated at 370hp, Foretravel uprated to 400hp. Very fuel thrifty software program through 96 model year. 97 went to 450 hp as I recall.

My '95 U320SE has the 400hp M11. Its performs very well, and I would characterize it as thrifty. I am extremely pleased with it.

I do have a question: The specification sheets on Barry's Website indicate that a '95 U320SE (which is what I have) has a 450 hp M11, while a '95 U230 (non-SE) has a 400 hp M11. Does anyone have any additional information. Thanks!

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #11 – April 04, 2013, 09:58:57 am

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – April 04, 2013, 07:53:54 am

My '95 U320SE has the 400hp M11. Its performs very well, and I would characterize it as thrifty. I am extremely pleased with it.

I do have a question: The specification sheets on Barry's Website indicate that a '95 U320SE (which is what I have) has a 450 hp M11, while a '95 U320 (non-SE) has a 400 hp M11. Does anyone have any additional information. Thanks!

I have the original Foretravel U320 Spec Sheet which shows a 400 hp but have not been able to locate an original U320 SE Spec sheet. Where I got the info was a spec sheet sent to me from Don Hovis who was selling his U320 SE which showed a Cummins M11 450. I did not get his build number

Does anyone have an original U320 SE Spec Sheet? Maybe his was a special order.
Who else has a U320 SE and what engine do you have?

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #12 – April 04, 2013, 11:07:22 am

and the answers for 1995 are attached. Barry got shipped one copy of a whole ton of literature i have now under my wing - courtesy of Gary Omel...
For example my stack of 1995 documentation is over 3 inches thick and contains printouts of at least two different dates of spec sheets (5/94 and 12/94) for every model. Attached are SE and 'C' Unicoach spec sheets for both dates AND a 'standard' Option sheet. Eventually I will be giving away documentation (nominal shipping/handling) for those that want an original (I have at least 40-50 of each spec sheet for 95 alone, including U300/U280 Standard and SE, U240 320, 295). Some sheets show 400hp, some show 370 hp. Some show the retarder as standard although that wasn't true. I have a U300 SE spec sheet showing the M-11 as optional alongside the Cat 3176.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #13 – April 04, 2013, 11:51:26 am

My 99, U320 coach built date of 6/98, has a "M11 450E +" mtg date 4/98.

If any one has the original Foretravel 1999, U320 Spec Sheet, I would a copy of that.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #14 – April 04, 2013, 12:24:31 pm

Quote from: Dave Head – April 04, 2013, 11:07:22 am

and the answers for 1995 are attached. Barry got shipped one copy of a whole ton of literature i have now under my wing - courtesy of Gary Omel...
For example my stack of 1995 documentation is over 3 inches thick and contains printouts of at least two different dates of spec sheets (5/94 and 12/94) for every model. Attached are SE and 'C' Unicoach spec sheets for both dates AND a 'standard' Option sheet. Eventually I will be giving away documentation (nominal shipping/handling) for those that want an original (I have at least 40-50 of each spec sheet for 95 alone, including U300/U280 Standard and SE, U240 320, 295). Some sheets show 400hp, some show 370 hp. Some show the retarder as standard although that wasn't true. I have a U300 SE spec sheet showing the M-11 as optional alongside the Cat 3176.

I haven't had a chance to go through all that was in the boxes. But you are correct they were in there.

It should help clear up some of the missing info on the web page after I can scan it and upload it.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #15 – April 04, 2013, 01:37:13 pm

Quote from: Dick & Sue – April 04, 2013, 11:51:26 am

My 99, U320 coach built date of 6/98, has a "M11 450E +" mtg date 4/98.

If any one has the original Foretravel 1999, U320 Spec Sheet, I would a copy of that.

Unfortunately, 99 info I got nothing.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #16 – April 04, 2013, 10:45:36 pm

My '99 build #5409 July 1998 has a Celect Plus.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #17 – April 08, 2013, 06:22:07 pm

Thanks for all of the interesting information. It's clear (just as we've seen in other areas) that in many respects each Foretravel is a custom unit!

My understanding is that in 1995 the M11 Cummins was originally rated at 370 hp, and that Foretravel uprated it to 400 hp. I presume that was simply an ECM reprogramming. Does anyone know? Also, I believe it was in 1997 that the M11 was rated at 450 hp. Does anyone know if there are mechanical differences between the 400 and 450 hp M11 engines--or is it just ECM programming?

Thanks!

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #18 – April 08, 2013, 07:54:47 pm

Just for giggles, I found that Monaco used the ISM500 in 1999 RV's they sold, thought the guy was fooling with me, until he sent the EIN, I ran it thru Cummins QuickServe, sure enough it was built Jan 1999, gave the 500 HP and CPL number etc.
Just wonder why Foretravel stayed with the ISM450 engine so long ?

John S, You might take these numbers to Cummins and see if this would be less costly than what I had done, we did not have these numbers to work from. May not need the wastegated turbo, just a different one and ECM update, but no air box sensing gear. Just a thought.
Dave M

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #19 – April 08, 2013, 09:14:29 pm

Dave,

Have heard that high mileage ISX/ISM had major camshaft problems $$ over the first several years on their 500hp engines. Perhaps the reason Foretravel stayed conservative with the 450hp engine. Heard anything about this?

Pierce

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #20 – April 08, 2013, 09:35:47 pm

Software only, and most of the time they didn't log the upgrade with Cummins. I had Cummins read mine out right after I bought it at our local Coach Care facility, and update the engine records. I discussed the 450 hp upgrade with them at the time and told them what my MPG had been. The guy looked at me and said to leave it the heck alone.

1995s are the lightest Unicoach made. With judicious driving and a light toad 9+ mpg is readily achievable as a routine. Towing my Tahoe I still manage 8 to 8.5.

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #21 – April 09, 2013, 03:24:38 am

Pierce,
Was told the parts list "CPL" for my engine uses the same parts as the last ISM500, only difference is ECM & program, Turbo, lack of EGR and girdle. I however had the girdle installed before I found the issue only showed up after about 1 million miles in class 8 trucks, so a waste of money for my babe.
Dave M

Re: Confused about the 450HP Cummins in 1997

Reply #22 – April 09, 2013, 06:55:02 am

Quote from: Dave Head – April 08, 2013, 09:35:47 pm

Software only, and most of the time they didn't log the upgrade with Cummins. I had Cummins read mine out right after I bought it at our local Coach Care facility, and update the engine records. I discussed the 450 hp upgrade with them at the time and told them what my MPG had been. The guy looked at me and said to leave it the heck alone.

1995s are the lightest Unicoach made. With judicious driving and a light toad 9+ mpg is readily achievable as a routine. Towing my Tahoe I still manage 8 to 8.5.

I'm extremely pleased with my '95 U320. I'm inclined to think that (all things considered) it was the best year for Unicoaches. While there is always the allure of "more power," I can't find any good reason to change things. It currently has a really good balance of performance and economy. However, "450" does sound soooooo much better than "400"! (Just kidding . . . . )

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