Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Topic: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach) (Read 1504 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #25 – April 17, 2013, 12:49:41 pm

Thanks Guys,

The debate goes on for and against using oil additives and synthetics vs regular oil.

Dave,
A healthy dose of skepticism is always good to have when trying out a new product. I, like you wouldn't use this stuff just based on claims by those trying to sell it. Making it to the Guiness book of World Records isn't always a good thing. Thanks for the links to the The Skeptic's Dictionary and Bob is The Oil Guy. If it sounds to good to be true it probably is until proven otherwise. Karma for your research.

Gam,
Thanks for sharing your real world experience with this type of additive. Sometimes trying to to do something better can do more harm than good in the long run. A word to the wise is sufficient! Karma.

Jerry

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #26 – April 17, 2013, 11:12:46 pm

Paul asked me "how do I get an oil sample?

I installed a "T" and an AMSoil oil sample valve on the inlet to the bypass filter.
With engine running, after driving a few miles so oils is well circulated, remove the cap and push the button on the valve and fill the sample cup with the dirtiest oil in the system.

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #27 – April 18, 2013, 01:28:12 am

Thanks, Wyatt.

best, paul

Quote

Paul asked me "how do I get an oil sample?

I installed a "T" and an AMSoil oil sample valve on the inlet to the bypass filter.
With engine running, after driving a few miles so oils is well circulated, remove the cap and push the button on the valve and fill the sample cup with the dirtiest oil in the system.

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #28 – April 18, 2013, 08:07:04 am

Did a very unoffical check with several large trucking companys and ask about oils used in [engines and rear ends] . None use synthetic . The reason they gave was all the same "cost" I said But it is much better, reply most head was "we run our trucks 500,000 miles and trade them for new .One company said at 500,000 miles or so they do a "bottom end' and run them another 5000,000 miles then trade them in for new .Looks to me that they squeese out of each truck all there is . Moral of my effort is , I don't see any gain with [synthetic] . I know it is better--but--does it justify the cost , or is it a feel good thing for us ? Brad Metzger

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #29 – April 18, 2013, 09:13:33 am

@David (aka kb0zke) IIRC your coach has the 6v92 don't run anything but Delo 100 straight weight 40. It's a pain to find but worth it. Here is my post on searching for Delo 100. Delo 100 40wt or lack there of

see ya
ken

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #30 – April 18, 2013, 09:54:31 am

IF your only going to use the Delo 100 #40, You had best start lookkng for the next supply.
Me, it is alot of H.S., I being real dumb, have only used SAE #40 or #50 in all the DDC 2 Cycle diesel engines for the past 40 years, Have used, Shell, NAPA, EXXON, ant others I have forgotten the brand. If you use the Mil Spec #, and go with it. We no longer use a high sulfer diesel fuel in the USA, Mex, different story.
Never have had any issues what so ever concerning quality of oil, Would recommend paying more attention the the Mil Spec # 1404B, if I can recall that far back,
Naturally every one is the last word in know it all, why there is the laughter.

One small point, my opinions come with a min. of 40 years of experience and screw ups.

They do not always fit the bright bulb opinions.

FWIW
Dave M

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #31 – April 18, 2013, 11:39:48 am

Whether this comment interests you all or not but it is my take on this synthetic oil issue.
I, as you know use Amsoil and generally get 2 or more change intervals out of this oil, compared to just one of the regular stuff.
So, let us add a few things up. If reg oil costs $4 a litre and Amsoil is $8 (this is my cost), I have to go the 2 normal change periods to break even, but, you have to add into this the cost of 2 filters compared to one with Amsoil, so now it is costing more if you pay someone to do the dirty job.
2x labour compared to 1x labour. Way more cost!!
I have, like others have being doing oil analysis and mine, case in point, said carry on using it, so I am now up to 3 normal changes, Seems like simple maths to me, and in the mean time my results say that comtaminents, metals etc are almost non existant etc etc.
The biggest point is my engine temp is down and it even sounds good (disregarding the Resonator).
Dunno how to make it any simpler!!
regarding Paul's comment on Truckers,
First of all these guy's are self employed if they have their own truck but a lot work for big companies. If as a trucker you can claim cost of fuel and oils + service against you income tax maybe that is a possible reason to not bother with synthetics etra cost, but to me it is like sticking your head in the sand. I will see if I can get a list of Trucking companies that do use synthetics because with a big fleet the saving would be massive
John H

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #32 – April 18, 2013, 12:24:44 pm

John,
I realize you live North of the 49th parallel, but down here we can get a gallon of Shell Rotella® Products - Shell Rotella
T6 for less that $22 a gallon in most any Wallyworld. That works out to $5.50 a quart. And the Rotella T6 gets excellent used oil analysis reviews over at - Bob is the Oil Guy.

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #33 – April 18, 2013, 12:39:54 pm

In the real world, a large trucking company, with about 15,000 tractors on the road at anygiven time, IF each truck can save a lowly $1.00 a day EACH, that does amount to an interesting number indeed.

The local Cummins Dist shop service manager keeps telling me to change to the synthetic, I ask why, answer, cause he likes it, beyound that, nothing. As I keep saying its all OPINION.

Me, We buy 80 cases (6 gal case) Rotella 15W-40 every month of so for our service business, so also keeping the synthetic would be a pain, Like said earlier, I change oil every 6 months no matter the miles. Would hate to throw that high class stuff out, that would hurt. Some units take the 55 gal drums, good part, we have waste oil pickup and they pay us for it and solve the EPA squabble. A win-win.
FWIW
Dave M

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #34 – April 18, 2013, 12:40:51 pm

Apart from the cost difference between AMSoil oil and ordinary oil, and the additional cost of the 2 micron filter, the cost difference is testing the AMSoil oil every 2 years vs testing ordinary oil every 6 months (IF the owner chooses to ignore the recommendation to change ordinary oil every 6 months - AND both the AMSoil oil and the ordinary oil are good for 2 years).

The 2 micron filter appears to put the odds in favor of AMSoil oil being good for 2 years.

I wonder how ordinary oil would do after 2 years with a 2 micron filter? And whether an owner would risk going 2 years without a test.

Would it make sense to try ordinary oil and a 2 micron by-pass filter? What would installing a 2 micron filter cost? The additional plumbing does not appear to be trivial...

best, paul

Quote

I switched to AMSoil synthetic two years ago and installed a two micron bypass filter. Just had oil analysis done after 10,000 miles and Oil is good for continued service.

Cummins recommends oil change every 6 months, regardless of mileage. I have had some Foretravel owners tell me that going years with synthetic will not work because of the water which gets in the oil, particularly when in Canada or other places where there is high humidity.

Last analysis showed less than 0.1 percent water, and I summer in Victoria, BC, Canada.

Changing 10 gallons of oil every six months would be very expensive.

I do wonder what the oil analysis would reveal if I was using non-synthetic oil with the by-pass filter.

I plan to have oil analysis done every two years (10,000 miles) and changing oil when recommended from oil analysis (every five or ten years).

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #35 – April 18, 2013, 02:20:36 pm

Total cost of the bypass filter setup was $231. The AMSoil bypass filter kit was $107, the hose was $43, the filter was $42, sample valve was $29, brass fittings were $10.

Paul, I also wonder how ordinary oil would test after 2 years and 10,000 miles with just a bypass filter.

AMSoil claims that their synthetic oil has chemicals in it which make it possible to use their oil for up to 25,000 miles, while ordinary oil will break down and cause rapid physical/chemical (acids) wear after just a few thousand miles. The sales guy at Quartzsite told me that he sold to a trucking company which tests AMSoil synthetic twice a year and go 100,000 miles between changes. Fact or fiction, I do not know.

I do know that after installing AMS oil and bypass filter, then driving 1500 miles to Canada, the oil was so clear that it looked like it had just been changed. The oil now is not as clear and has that black diesel engine oil look.

I anticipate doing oil analysis every year and not changing oil for 25,000 miles (5 years), which would be ten oil changes at Cummins recommendations.

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #36 – April 18, 2013, 02:38:14 pm

Who would you recommend to install the filter, Wyatt?

best, paul

Quote

Total cost of the bypass filter setup was $231. The AMSoil bypass filter kit was $107, the hose was $43, the filter was $42, sample valve was $29, brass fittings were $10.

Paul, I also wonder how ordinary oil would test after 2 years and 10,000 miles with just a bypass filter.

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #37 – April 18, 2013, 03:03:32 pm

I installed the bypass filter myself with the help of "Mechanic Mike" at the Slabs (near Niland, CA).
I could talk to Mike and send you his phone number. It would be a short drive for you from El Centro to the Slabs.
Mike charges $20/hour and does good work.

I will be leaving for Canada on April 23rd or 24th.

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #38 – April 18, 2013, 03:35:15 pm

Thanks, Wyatt.

But I'm leaving at the same time to go to the SF Bay Area and replace a toilet and fridge.

I'll do oil later.

best, paul

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #39 – April 18, 2013, 03:42:49 pm

I bough a NTZ filter and SS hoses on EBay .I have less then $100 in the hole system. With in the first few miles after an oil change the oil always look black with carbon. After driving with the bypass installed the black oil now looks like new. The return from the bypass filter goes into the filler cap on my valve cover so a sample isn't a problem.Gam

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #40 – April 18, 2013, 03:52:41 pm

Here's a couple of very interesting articles on diesel oils/brands and their components & effects on diesel wear.

Brands and oils are analyzed and ranked according to components. First article (TDR56) sets the stage.
Second article (TDR57) analyzes many more oils and ranks them.

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR56_Oil.pdf

http://turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf

Summary of the lube engineer's evaluations and ranking (from TDR57):

Best category:
Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue 15W40 CI-4 plus

Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 CI-4 plus (note that this may be replaced by T6 synthetic, which was not analyzed) Shell Rotella T non synthetic gets very low marks in the analysis.

Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Syn. 5W40 CI-4 plus

Pennzoil Long Life 15W40 CI-4 plus

Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4 plus

Red Line Diesel Synthetic 15W40 CI-4 plus

Extracts from the first article:
The author/lube engineer strongly recommends API rating of CI-4 Plus, rather than CJ-4. Reasons are that the newer spec (CJ-4) was formulated to accommodate the newest diesel technology with particulate traps that can get plugged easily. To do this, CJ-4 lowers the amount of zinc and detergent content. Zinc is important for high pressure film strength - needed for the cam-driven injectors in a lot of our engines, and more detergents are generally a good thing in diesels. Higher content of both of those are asserted to increase particulate trap clogging.

Lots of detailed analysis for folks wanting to dig into it!

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #41 – April 18, 2013, 04:39:14 pm

Regarding bypass filters, doesn't the Fleetguard 9009 (upgraded filter for 8.3 Cummins) have a bypass section in it?

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #42 – April 18, 2013, 05:07:37 pm

I have the EaBP110 bypass filter too and it is a simple install.Dave, Amsoil Deisel oil is CI-4+ too.
John H

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #43 – April 18, 2013, 07:59:45 pm

The 9009 is called a venturi combination filter because some of the oil is directed through a 5 micron filter via a venturi while most of the oil goes through something like a 30 micron filter. There is no way to determine when the 5 micron part is plugged and it will let through a small percentage of 5 micron particles.

Any particles larger then about 4 or 5 microns cause wear.

Bypass filters are about 2 microns and block 97% of 2 micron. AMSoil bypass blocks about 40% of 1 micron because of the way it is manufactured. When a Bypass filter is plugged, the can will be cold after driving. Also, the capacity of a bypass filter far exceeds that of the 9009.

Re: Going with synthetic lubricants? (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Reply #44 – April 18, 2013, 08:46:01 pm

The Fleetguard 9009 has a bypass section. I have been unable to find the absolute micron size for the bypass section of this filter. Using the 9009 my oil always looked black from carbon particals.I still use the 9009 but have added a 1 micron absolute by pass filter. It didn't take long for this filter to remove the carbon.The oil is still darker then new but this isn't from any contamination.By far most engine wear is caused by .5 to 2.0 micron sized particals.It may be over kill to add a bypass filter system.I only put about 10,000 miles a year on my coach. But I was taught that lube oil for a diesel is it's lifes blood .Gam

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