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Topic: Master Disconnect Switch Doesn't: was 12V Relay popcorn action... (Read 776 times) previous topic - next topic

Master Disconnect Switch Doesn't: was 12V Relay popcorn action...

So I'm working on installing a reverse osmosis drinking water system under the sink... Starting to get little dark, so I go turn on some lights. They stay on for little while, then light goes off! After about 5 to 10 seconds, light comes on and stays on for about five seconds or so. Doesn't seem to matter which lights in the coach I turn on, although a single lamp over the couch doesn't cause it to happen (at least for a while), but anything more than that and the relay starts popping. More lights make the relay pop faster. Sounds like a bad relay to me, but I wonder if there's something else I should be looking at. I'm the process of isolating which relay in front of the passenger seat is actually popping, but the sound travels along the bus bar and makes it feel close no matter where you touch on the breaker panel. Thoughts? Anybody else who has experienced this situation and found the solution, please chime in! Ordinarily, I'm up for a decent puzzle to solve... But right now, I just want to finish working on my current project!
Don
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #1
Don,
Relays are tripping and self-resetting due to a current overload.  Relay is doing what it is supposed to.  My guess is while working under the sink you inadvertently shorted a power lead for something - that's where I would look for the problem.  I would use the salesman switch to stop it while looking.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #2
The only wires near where I am working are for the water pump and water heater switches. Although they are nearby, I never came into contact with them. Weird thing is, the switch in the stairwell near the door that was supposed to turn much of the 12 V stuff off, doesn't do it. In fact, when that switch is in the off position I can turn all the lights I want on and they stay on. When I turn that switch off, it doesn't seem to do anything except cause the relays to trip. I noted before that that switch didn't seem to be turning things off that I was expecting it to. I would guess that that is the switch that you are calling the salesman switch. Is that correct?
Don
Don,
Relays are tripping and self-resetting due to a current overload.  Relay is doing what it is supposed to.  My guess is while working under the sink you inadvertently shorted a power lead for something - that's where I would look for the problem.  I would use the salesman switch to stop it while looking.
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #3
I would guess that that is the switch that you are calling the salesman switch. Is that correct?
Yes.
This is just a guess but it sounds like there is power back feeding.  Here's what I would do next.  With the salesman switch off, go to the 12 volt panel under the bed and see if there is 12 volts there (I imagine there is if the lights still come on).  If so, pull all the fuses and see what side (ie. main side or circuit side) is supplying the 12 volts.  I'm thinking at least one circuit will be hot and in it will contain a connection to power that shouldn't be there.  While you have all the fuses pulled, go back and turn on the salesman switch and see if the main side of the fuse panel becomes hot (as it should).  Bear in mind that this is all based on how my coach is wired - Foretravel is pretty consistent thorough the years but you never know.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #4
Some model coaches have a high amperage mechanical switch with a handle, in stairwell to disconnect much but not all 12-volt circuits. Fridge & detectors stay powered all the time.

Some models have a high amperage solenoid in the bay, with a small momentary switch near the stairs that does the same job. It is very important to only use a momentary switch as the expensive large high amperage BigBoy latching relay uses a push-on, push-off circuit and a steady on, will burn out relay control.
http://www.dodgenmobiletech.com/sites/default/files/Intellitec%20Big%20Boy%20200%20Amp%20Battery%20Disconnect.pdf

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #5
That is a good suggestion John... Gave me a place to start. With the master switch on or off there is 12 volts on the master side of the fuse panel with all the fuses pulled. The master switch feels like a heavy duty mechanical switch, but I'm wondering if it is just controlling a relay somewhere else. I put the fuses back in one at a time and there are two circuits which will start the problem. Which happens whether the master switch is on or off. It seems to me that if the master switch was shorted out, you would just have it 12 V all the time which is what seems to be happening here, except that things continue to work when the master switch is off and pop the relay when the Master Switch is on. As far as I know, that master switch to turn all 12 coach systems off except detectors and the fridge. hmmm... Another clue, when you have the incandescent lamp over the couch on with the master switch off and flip the master switch to the on position, the lamp dims before the relay kicks off. Obviously there is a current draw somewhere... :-(
Don
Yes.
This is just a guess but it sounds like there is power back feeding.  Here's what I would do next.  With the salesman switch off, go to the 12 volt panel under the bed and see if there is 12 volts there (I imagine there is if the lights still come on).  If so, pull all the fuses and see what side (ie. main side or circuit side) is supplying the 12 volts.  I'm thinking at least one circuit will be hot and in it will contain a connection to power that shouldn't be there.  While you have all the fuses pulled, go back and turn on the salesman switch and see if the main side of the fuse panel becomes hot (as it should).  Bear in mind that this is all based on how my coach is wired - Foretravel is pretty consistent thorough the years but you never know.
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #6
Thanks Barry, I will have to check for sure but it seems like our master switch is mechanical.
Don
Some model coaches have a high amperage mechanical switch with a handle, in stairwell to disconnect much but not all 12-volt circuits. Fridge & detectors stay powered all the time.

Some models have a high amperage solenoid in the bay, with a small momentary switch near the stairs that does the same job. It is very important to only use a momentary switch as the expensive large high amperage BigBoy latching relay uses a push-on, push-off circuit and a steady on, will burn out relay control.
http://www.dodgenmobiletech.com/sites/default/files/Intellitec%20Big%20Boy%20200%20Amp%20Battery%20Disconnect.pdf
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #7
As far as I know, that master switch to turn all 12 coach systems off except detectors and the fridge. hmmm...
Sorry it didn't solve the problem.  I've found there are quite a few things that the master switch doesn't control, basement lights is just one that comes to mind.  On my coach the master switch feeds the bed fuses and the generator (large cable to generator, presumably used to start it).
I can only suggest starting to go through the 12 volt schematics at this point and see what it shows for the master switch and go from there.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Master Disconnect Switch Doesn't: was 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #8
I took a closer look at the master battery disconnect switch, and it is definitely a mechanical two position switch, a Cole Hersee. Anybody change one of these out before? Any tips... I looked from underneath and it appears to be quite a trick to get to at least one of the screws that hold the cover over the back of it. I won't change it out until I'm sure that it is part of the problem.
Don
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #9
Following our wiring diagram, our mechanical door master switch has large diameter cables from & to bay wall 90-amp circuit breakers, one of which has a mechanical reset through water bay hole. Switch is working ok if it turns on & off the bay cable terminal.

Re: Master Disconnect Switch Doesn't: was 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #10
It might be a good idea to follow your initial instinct of searching out the resetting relay in front of the passenger seat.  Knowing what circuit is tripping might give you enough of a clue as to where to look for the source of the problem.  My suggestion of the fuses under the bed might have lead you on the wrong path.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #11
Thanks Barry, that's useful information. Though I am not sure what you mean by "mechanical reset through water Bay hole". My relay panel in the storage bay is on the wall adjacent to the house battery compartment. I believe that I determined that my switch is good after all. I disconnected the relays on the circuit side one by one until I found the one that was tripping. It has three wires attached to it and once I found which wire was causing the problem and disconnectedness, the master just let switch now operates as you would expect. Using the wire number lists in the book, I discovered that the wire that was causing the problem is the AM/FM radio circuit. That narrows it down quite a bit! Now I just have to figure out why and where that wire is short-circuited. The radio has been disconnected since my DC to DC power supply for the dash Mac Mini computer quit working... I'm guessing the problem is related ::)
Don
Following our wiring diagram, our mechanical door master switch has large diameter cables from & to bay wall 90-amp circuit breakers, one of which has a mechanical reset through water bay hole. Switch is working ok if it turns on & off the bay cable terminal.
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #12
Our coach has three 90-amp round circuit breakers on the large bay wall, just above relays covered with a white fiberglass cover. Two of our the 90-amp breakers are auto-reset and one breaker will not auto-reset and has to be manually reset. The reset button is on the back side of the breaker. Since the three breakers are mounted on the bay wall, the back sides are not touchable from the bay wall. The one manual reset button breaker is mounted on a 'hole in the wall', so the reset button is pushable from the other side of the wall, which is our water bay. This reset button is not obvious as it is deep inside the access hole.

When the stairwell disconnect switch is open, the dash radio 'memory' circuit is still powered through a breaker on the big panel in front of the co-pilot seat or on the bay wall behind fiberglass cover. Other dash radio wires are off when stairwell switch is open. If the dash radio power harness has a 'short' from off and on wires, when stairwell switch is open, this short will try to power all off circuits through the memory breaker, thus overloading the memory wire and its breaker.  Maybe this was your problem.

 

Re: 12V Relay popcorn action...

Reply #13
Bingo! That is exactly the conclusion I came to myself... Good thinking! When I installed the stereo which acts as the audio amplifier for the In-Dash computer where iTunes resides, there was noise from the inverter in the audio, so I repurposed the noise suppressor from the removed CB which effectively killed the noise. However, it seems that the noise suppressor has developed a short which is probably what took out my DC power supply for the computer. :-[  Oh well, it beats tracing burned out wiring! As it happens, I was at Fry's trying to locate a new noise suppressor when Barry's posted his dead on diagnosis ^.^d . These used to be easy to find... I struck out at two car stereo stores, a couple of auto parts stores, and a Radio Snack. Now to install a new noise suppressor and test that theory...
Don
When the stairwell disconnect switch is open, the dash radio 'memory' circuit is still powered through a breaker on the big panel in front of the co-pilot seat or on the bay wall behind fiberglass cover. Other dash radio wires are off when stairwell switch is open. If the dash radio power harness has a 'short' from off and on wires, when stairwell switch is open, this short will try to power all off circuits through the memory breaker, thus overloading the memory wire and its breaker.  Maybe this was your problem.
The selected media item is not currently available.
Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson