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Battery Frustrations

Chassis batteries keep going dead when plugged in and parked long term (three Optima red tops)
Have Xantrax echo charger installed, light happily glowing green (telling me all is well and charging should be taking place), but have had multiple occasions when I get to the coach after storing some period of weeks (plugged in and charger on house batteries) and red tops dead.
Conclusion - Xantrax dead and lying to me.
Replaced Red Tops twice in last three years (ouch!)

Bought and was going to put in Trik-L-Start - but also thought adding battery conditioner was advocated by this robust panel (also called desulfators (ok, spelling not my strength)) (BTW, my new Trik-L-Start came with Winnebago brand on it)

Decided to not go that route - and go this route instead - Battery Minder 1500 - maintainer and conditioner

BatteryMINDer Model 1500: 12 Volt 1.5 Amp Charger/Maintainer/Desulfator :


Supposed to have conditioner and maintainer circuitry, and can service up to four 12V batteries in parallel, both condition and maintain (assuming I install it and use it with charged batteries to begin with)

Since it is temp compensated, I intend to mount unit inside coach, and then run remote temp sensor (which this supports, $20 option) out to battery box with charging cables - thought I would connect cables on the large end mounting lugs - positive and negative, so that "pulses" from the conditioning circuit would need to traverse all three red tops.

OK, not a battery guy at all - any do's, or don'ts, pros and cons - or am I way off base and should I put on trickle charger and a conditioner per battery and not this unit.  I don't like that the Xantrax let me down, and the trip-L-start seems to have spotty reliability.

If I put this in I will have available

One used Xantrax that thinks it is working, free to the electrically inclined in the group

One new in Box trick-L-start will make a deal - Unless one of the moderators can use it, in which case it is free to them for their service in support of this cool affinity group

Probably everyone on the board here is smarter than me when it comes to electrical, your help appreciated

Oh yeah, I think my boost solenoid may be bad too, but I have four of them on hand :-)  Going to use the info on Barry's site to troubleshoot

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Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #1 –
Tim,

Make sure your battery manufacture supports the desulfation mode. Just Google the manufacturer with the battery model and desulfation as keywords. Different batteries may have different float/maintenance voltage also.

Unless you install a latching solenoid, the boost solenoid will use current all the time it is on. House batteries and engine batteries may be different types and have different charging requirements.

Only way to totally insure the batteries won't go flat is to disconnect them at the battery when the rig is in storage with only a trickle charger connected to the terminals (one for house, one for engine). Summer is worse than winter with unattended batteries going flat in just a month or so.

Many RV owners have thought they had all bases covered only to discover flat batteries when they return so don't feel badly. While we were gone for vacation last month, a lightening strike knocked out the power. Power came back on but the GFI had tripped. With the charger out of action, the expensive house batteries were down to 7 volts when we got home.
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #2 –
Thanks for input, optima actually sells chargers that desulfate as well, so I think I am covered on that one. Charger resets automatically in power outage to last used settings, BUT tripped GFI will get me too.

Hope to stay away from using boost going forward altogether.

Thanks for great input, what a neat forum
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Tim Fiedler –
(BTW, my new Trik-L-Start came with Winnebago brand on it)
Don't know when they started, but Winnebago was using Trik-L-Start as oem on all new Winnebagos to charge the chassis batteries.  You must have gotten a Winnie branded model that slipped through the system.
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #4 –
Tim  ----  When I needed to replace my on board charger I talked with the parts dep't at
FT.  They sent me a new unit that does it all.  It's a charger, de-sulphator, and  charges only as needed and can be left on all of the time.  I don't do that:  I have installed a battery monitor on the house battery only and I plug in shore power when the house battery voltage drops to about 12.3 volts, that is about every 3to 4 weeks.  If you check with them, tell them your set up and see if their unit would be compatible.  Batteries can be a bit troublesome and if you don't have a de-sulphator capability, you need to throw in an equalizing charge every so often which does this.  I also cross connect with boost solenoid when I plug the coach in so that the engine battery is kept up.  When not hooked to shore power, I always leave the engine battery isolated.  I hope that some of this rambling will help you.  ----  Fritz
Fritz & Kathy Johnson
1991 36'

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Tim Fiedler –
Charger resets automatically in power outage to last used settings, BUT tripped GFI will get me too.
Hope to stay away from using boost going forward altogether.
In our coach, there are lots of 120VAC circuits that are not on GFI. I just tripped the GFI and the Battery Tender plugged at the foot of the bed continued to operate. You may be able to find a suitable outlet for your charger.
J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #6 –
Tim,
I have the Batteryminder 12248 with the temp compensating option. Been using this model for about 4 years and it has maintained the original red tops in my coach without fail. If there is a power interruption it will default to Gel cell charge rate which is lower than the AGM setting so you have to reset it to AGM if the power has gone off. I plug it in whenever we plan to stop for more than a week.
Good luck,
Rick

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #7 –
When I talked to Batteryminder company, they told me what they mean by "temperature compensating" is the charger will operate in different temps. It is sort of a marketing statement that has little important value.

And the charger does NOT measure the temperature of the battery, which is pretty important considering float our battery's optimum float voltage at 45 degrees is 14.2 volts and 13.2 volts at 110 degrees, a 1 volt difference.

I think it is ok to use Batteryminder as long as we understand it is not battery temperature compensated. They have a good product, but it is a confusing overstatement that it is temperature compensated, implying something it is not.

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #8 –
Barry,

This is a brand new model, which I believe does measure temp, when I open it I will confirm.

Model 1500 bye
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #9 –
Here are opinions which are different then some others expressed here:

Manufacturer recommendation on desulfation:
If they say "do not desulfate!", ignore them, for they know not what they say. Desulfation testing, by independant folks with nothing to gain, clearly demonstrates that desulfation works on flooded, AGM, Gel, and even NiCD batteries, regardless of make. They all use the same basic chemical/electrical process.
Never doubt that the manufacturer would prefer that you replace your batteries as soon as the warrantee period is over, of course they do not want you to extend the life of your batteries via desulfation.

Maintaining "Start Battery Bank" (or any battery bank) for extended periods:
Even disconnected batteries will need a trickle charge to remain charged, with the number of amps required increasing with higher temperatures. Batteries self discharge over time, however, sealed batteries self discharge much slower then flooded batteries with Gel being the slowest.
Adding to self discharge is "phantom loads". Even a tenth amp of "phantom load" will cause discharge at more then 2.5 amphours per day (equals dead start batteries in one month at 100F).

Using a 1 amp unregulated trickle charger ($10) on your start battery bank and on each 8D house battery will not harm the battery. If it is hot, use a 2amp unregulated trickle charger instead of a 1 amp or just use a 2amp.

Do not allow your batteries to discharge for a week (or even a couple days) before recharging. Batteries allowed to discharge will become sulfated and have a short useful life. If you use a high output regulated battery charger, monitor battery voltage and temperature, because many of them will over charge your batteries which also shortens life. I do not have a high output battery charger in my coach.

Measure the phantom loads on your battery banks so you know what you are dealing with. The coach battery bank phantom load on my 1996 U320 was 6.5 amps, it is now 0.7 amps (10%). Foretravel builds coaches for luxury living with generator based fast battery recharge, not dry camping without generator use.

By the way, I do not have to worry about my "start battery bank" because I do not have one.






Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #10 –
I looked at Battery Minder model 1500 and it could do battery temp compensation if the charger is very close to batteries, as it reads air temperature.
They do have a $20 option that will measure temps at battery terminal, but I don't think it very important to buy it, as the temp compensation may only make small changes to voltages.  With a limit of only 1.5 amps the charger can not do much damage if voltage is a bit high in warm temps.
 

Re: Battery Frustrations

Reply #11 –
Yes, there is a $20 option to read the battery temperature instead of the ambient air temp.  The 1500 will likely be out of the weather, but not in conditioned air - foot of the bed or engine box, maybe where the block heater plugs in (I would unplug the block heater unless i was going to use it - in all my years with a FT, I have only needed Aux engine heat twice - and aqua hot did a fine job

Last night I took off all the connections on all three batteries, cleaned off the terminals and connectors with a wire brush specific for the job, and reconnected using lock washers on the nuts.  If that doesn't solve the bolts loosening, I will go to Nylock nuts next.

Going to remove the non-functional Xantrax echo charger put in the 1500, talked to factory and they said hooking the 1500 to the same posts as the bus terminations (basically at each end of the bank so the desuflation and charge will have to flow through all batteries, just like chassis voltage is the right approach.
Probably will replace the boost solenoid over the weekend for good measure.  Going to Bristol today for the Nascar Friday and Sat. races, leaving coach at Tennessee RV on Monday, figure to have some downtime to mess with the coach
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)