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6V92TA high altitude performance

I drove my 1991 U300 with the 6V92TA DDEC controlled engine in the mountains around Santa Fe and Taos this fall and noticed a few things.

1. The turbocharger screams at high altitude. At low altitude I hardly ever hear it unless I have my head stuck out the window to back into a campsite or something. I presume the turbocharger achieves a much higher rpm in thin air than it does in dense air. The exhaust pressure on the turbine would be the same at any altitude but the density of the air on the impeller would change dramatically from sea level to 10,000 feet, which is probably what makes the turbo scream at high altitude.

2. There's a tiny puff of black smoke from the tailpipe for a moment when accelerating from a standing stop at about 8,000 feet and higher elevations. The puff of smoke goes away instantly as the turbocharger spins up. I hardly ever see a puff of smoke at lower elevations unless I really stomp on the accelerator from a standing stop.

3. There appears to be no loss of power at elevations up to 10,000 feet. I didn't get an opportunity to go any higher than that this time around. While climbing a steep grade from EspaƱola to Santa Fe a huge new tag axle bus with a Cummins and no toad got a full power run for it at the bottom of the hill and attempted to pass me on the uphill grade. I climbed the hill on cruise control at 60 mph without touching the accelerator, just like always. The much larger coach made it almost up beside me before he started falling back dramatically. He had fallen back about 1/8 mile or more by the time I cleared the top of the grade. I presume his Cummins was a 400-600 horsepower turbocharged model with a computer controlling it, because most of the new engines in big coaches fit that description. I realize the other coach probably weighs twice as much as mine, but he's supposedly got twice as much power. My 6V92TA with DDEC is set for 300 horsepower and is multistage turbo/supercharged, which basically means the air from the turbocharger then gets compressed a second time by the supercharger. The air gets cooled twice in the process also. After thinking about this for a long time I believe the DDEC computer will tell the 6V92TA to make 300 horsepower at any altitude, and the 6V92TA is easily capable of making 300+ horsepower, even at 10,000 feet. It's probably capable of making twice that power at sea level. I think what I was experiencing at high altitude was an engine that for the first time since I've owned it finally got to perform at the power level it was designed for, instead of the DDEC computer holding it back. Apparently the DDEC keeps adding more fuel until the engine makes 300 horsepower, no matter what the altitude. This makes me think the U300 with 6V92TA DDEC engine is the ultimate high altitude performer of motor coaches. The other engines of its vintage are non computerized and they're set for 300 horsepower at sea level. They would produce dramatically lower power at high altitude. The newer engines that are computerized are also set to produce their 400-600 horsepower at sea level. All those engines are probably maxed out at whatever horsepower they're set for at sea level. By the time they get up to 10,000 feet they're probably not able to produce anywhere near their rated power. The 6V92TA with DDEC is probably capable of producing twice as much power as its 300 horsepower setting at sea level, and that's probably why I experienced no power loss at 10,000 feet, because the DDEC computer doesn't care what altitude it's at, it just keeps making 300 horsepower. When I was at Stewart & Stevenson, the Detroit Diesel / Allison service center, they told me they can easily turn up the power on my engine just by plugging their hand held computer into the DDEC computer and telling it to make more horsepower. They said there's no need to change injectors, fuel pumps, turbocharger, or anything. I was considering turning it up to 450 because that's apparently what all the fire engines with 6V92TA engines are set for and we had a stationary 6V92TA where I worked that was set for 450 and it worked great. Based on the high altitude performance I experienced I don't know if it even makes sense to do that. The DDEC computer is gonna put the 6V92TA flat out on high altitude climbs, which is where the power is most needed. The rest of the time the engine is just barely working... Anyway it was interesting to experience the performance it seldom gets to use.

Have any of you folks noticed these things with your 6V92TA at high altitude? If you haven't actually driven a 6V92TA at high altitude please point out that you're speculating and not speaking from experience... but I still wanna hear from you :)
Scott Cook
1991 U300 36' 6V92TA
Old Town Penobscot 16
1984 Honda VF1100C (V65 Magna)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #1
I can tell you that they make high altitude turbos.  And they are will push more air into the intake at normal altitudes, giving your more power.  But I have never experienced and high altitude driving like you get out west.  Unless you consider 2,250 feet to be high.  Thing is that around here is up and right back down, and not at a plateau.
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #2
We have had ours to over 10,000 feet and can feel the power loss. Unless the turbo is fitted with a wastegate, performance will start to fall off as soon as you leave sea level. We spend most of the time around 8000 feet here in the Sierras and wish it had sea level power. Increased black smoke is normal when you leave a stop sign when at high altitude in all diesels.

Not saying that it does not do well in thin air but it really flies down at lower elevation. Not like the fire truck in the YouTube video but passes most big rigs coming home from the Sac Valley floor.

Here is an example: Wastegate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My Porsche 930 also has a wastegate. It allows sea level boost pressure (about 1 atmosphere or bar) to about 7700 feet. This is called "critical altitude". The car is the fastest at this altitude as there is less air resistance for it to fight through at top speed. Beyond 7700 feet, the horsepower starts to drop off.

I plugged the line to the wastegate on our Mercedes 300SD. It gets full pressure regardless of altitude. Not the smartest idea but it has 440,000 tortured miles and nothing has been done to engine or trans. Not even the water pump. And it's a 4 cycle ;).

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #3
Electronic Cummins owners can also have the dealer add fuel and raise the HP with their magic wand. If EGT (exhaust gas temperature) is at the high end from adding fuel, increasing altitude will see it go up more. Detroit 2 cycles use a lot more air so EGT is lower to begin with. Advantage Detroit. Cummins with waste gates have an advantage as they can keep sea level HP up to their critical altitude and control EGT better. Advantage Cummins.

Bottom line is whenever you see black smoke out the exhaust pipe, the EGT instantly heads up. Excellent article from Banks about EGT and the importance of an EGT gauge: Banks Power | Why EGT is Important This is good reading especially if you have increased fuel or are thinking about it.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #4
Right on Pierce,and why I had Cummins do my upgrade to protect me from myself.
the ISM @ 500 is a true joy in my 30,000 lb U320. ;D
Back when I played the 2 stroke DDC babes, we played many different turbo configurations right up to where we started breaking the air box covers off, so made the covers from 1/4" plate steel, they stayed OK, another joyful experience.
Dave M

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #5
I don't intend to do any modifications. This is actually one more reason that I'm satisfied with the performance of my coach. I have noticed as I drive all over the country that newer, more powerful coaches are unable to pass mine on steep uphill grades. It's much more obvious at high altitude. I'm sure the guy in the bigger coach in Santa Fe thought he'd pass me easily or he wouldn't have set himself up for such an embarrassment. I have a lot of diesel pickups towing huge fifth wheel campers that try to pass me on uphill grades also. The most recent one was apparently drafting behind me and as soon as he pulled out to pass the headwind hit him and it was like he opened his parachute or something. He pulled back in behind me after cars started passing him on the right. The diesel pickup trucks almost always have thick black smoke when towing heavy loads up a steep grade, even at sea level. I seldom see a coach with black smoke except occasionally when climbing steep grades at high altitude. That's how I knew the one trying to pass me climbing up to Santa Fe was flat to the floor. I could see it start smoking and gaining speed as we approached the base of the hill. According to what Stewart & Stevenson told me, and what I've read on the marine engine websites, the 6V92TA is capable of producing twice as much power as what the DDEC computer is set for on my coach, without any other modifications. I can't imagine the engine isn't capable of producing more than 300 horsepower at 10,000 feet from its huge performance held in reserve. I watched carefully and didn't see any black smoke while climbing steep grades at high altitude. The really steep grade was the one climbing up to Los Alamos / White Rock, which is a 45 mph speed limit, but my coach was able to maintain that speed with no smoke... So I dunno, I'm just reporting what I experienced, which goes right along with what Stewart & Stevenson and the marine guys said.
Scott Cook
1991 U300 36' 6V92TA
Old Town Penobscot 16
1984 Honda VF1100C (V65 Magna)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #6
I did some research on turbocharger wastegates and it supports my observations just using common sense. The wastegate isn't a performance improvement, it's a safety device to prevent damage. Single stage turbochargers are almost always small for good acceleration, where the performance is most noticeable. Small turbochargers spin up to their maximum rated speed quickly and the wastegate opens to bypass exhaust gasses around the turbine to prevent the turbocharger from going over speed / pressure. On a high altitude climb at highway speed a small turbocharger isn't capable of producing enough boost and the engine begins to smoke and lose power the higher you go. For highway speeds at high altitude you need a large turbocharger, which you'd have to special order or retrofit yourself. The large turbocharger might not need a wastegate if it's too big to spin up to a dangerously over speed / pressure condition.

The "silver" Detroit Diesel that Foretravel used has a spring loaded bypass valve on the end of the supercharger. You could incorrectly compare this bypass valve to a wastegate but it's not a safety device because the older Detroit Diesels don't have them and there's obviously no danger. It's actually an efficiency improvement to take the load from the supercharger, which is driven by engine power, and put the load on the turbocharger, which is exhaust driven. The two cycle Detriot Diesel needs the supercharger to start the engine. The supercharger also provides low speed boost until the turbocharger spins up to speed. When the turbocharger develops enough boost the air pressure pushes open the spring loaded bypass valve on the end of the supercharger. The supercharger is now unloaded and the engine saves that amount of energy. There is no need to use a small turbocharger on a Detroit Diesel because the supercharger provides low speed boost for good acceleration. Large turbochargers don't require a wastgate as a safety device, which is probably why Detroit Diesel didn't advertise having a wastegate. I doubt they'd spend the money to install a wastegate that isn't needed just for the marketing value to consumers who don't understand the real purpose of a wastegate. According to one specification I read, the spring loaded bypass valve is rated at 83% but I don't know if that means it bypasses up to 83% or if it retains 83% and bypasses the rest.

So in review, at highway speed at high altitude the silver Detroit Diesel is probably still running on the turbocharger only, at full boost, with the spring loaded bypass valve open and very little energy wasted through the supercharger. There is no black smoke and no loss of power I can detect up to at least 10,000 feet. The turbocharger screams in the thin air at that altitude but it apparently is too large to go over speed / pressure because Detroit Diesel had no reason to use a small turbocharger on a supercharged engine and they didn't need a wastegate on it. If it were possible to drive to an altitude high enough that the turbocharger couldn't create enough boost to open the bypass valve, the supercharger would remain loaded and provide the additional boost required. If it were possible to drive to an altitude high enough that the turbocharger and supercharger couldn't create enough boost, even compounded in series, the 6V92TA still has double the performance it needs at sea level atmospheric pressure to create the 300 horsepower the DDEC computer is set for. So basically there's no way that's ever gonna happen. I stand by my previous observation that the U300 with 6V92TA is probably the ultimate high altitude performer of diesel pushers. The next time I'm at 10,000 feet and a huge new coach attempts to pass me I'll pull over at the top of the hill, wait a few minutes for him to get there, flag him down and ask him which turbocharger he has on his 600 horsepower engine. ;D
Scott Cook
1991 U300 36' 6V92TA
Old Town Penobscot 16
1984 Honda VF1100C (V65 Magna)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #7
Scott,

No, wastegates are used as a necessary part of the package including a larger turbo or one with different mapping to increase power over a broader RPM range. If a turbo makes boost at a lower RPM, it will overboost (over the maximum boost the engine designer had in mind) before the engine gets to it's maximum RPM. At an user adjustable point, the wastegate lets any pressure over this figure out into the atmosphere or back into the exhaust system downstream. In an effort to get more power at a lower RPM, sometimes two different sized turbos are used. In Europe where some countries have exponential taxes based on the displacement of the engine, two turbos are very common. It allows an engine of say 1.7 liters to develop as much or more horsepower as a 3 liter engine and give excellent fuel economy of a very small engine plus good handling because the engine is smaller so much lighter in weight.

The only drawbacks wastegates have is adding to the complexity of the intake system with possible maintenance issues plus they waste a small amount of energy because the excess pressure is vented to the atmosphere without being used.

Anytime you use a bypass system like our Detroits have or a wastegate, you raise the elevation where you get sea level horsepower. Where the horsepower starts to drop off is called the critical altitude. So you get sea level acceleration, hill climbing ability, etc. up to this altitude. This applies to all diesels with turbochargers and wastegates/bypass, Detroit, Cummins, CAT, MAN, etc. 

Many thousands of our 6V-92TA 2 cycle Detroits are found in boats. Some up to 614 HP and depending whether in a fire boat or a sport fisherman, may have 1 or 2 turbos fitted. Just depends on what RPM range and how much power is needed. Some are aftercooled, some have intercoolers.

CATs and Cummins enjoy the same high altitude performance benefits that we do with their turbo/wastegate installations. I used to design and install turbos on normally aspirated Mercedes diesels. It was a very complex job to size the turbo with hundreds of possible mapping options to get the maximum boost where we wanted it without over stressing the engine. The engines we installed them on did not have the hollow piston domes/oil spray or any of the heavy duty parts the factory installed on their turbo diesels so we limited the boost to 11 psi vs about 14 psi the factory used. We did it without the wastegate found on the factory engines so had a more narrow power band but still worked well.

What keeps our Detroits from being the absolute economy kings is the big power robbing supercharger. The engine package can be designed to run the Roots supercharger at lower RPM to use less horsepower but it still take a lot of power to spin. As you probably know, a 2 cycle won't even start without air being forced into it. Railroads and ships with 2 cycles have solved the problem by removing the supercharger and either installing electric fans to force air in to start or initially spinning the turbocharger with an electric motor or coupling it to the engine with a clutch until the engine is running. In this way, big ship 2 cycle diesels can exceed 50% efficiency while the 4 cycle diesels are limited to about 44%.

The next time you get a chance, put a stopwatch on your U300 at sea level and at 10,000 feet. You WILL find the time to speed on level ground is quite a bit slower at 10,000 feet. Unfortunately, seat of the pants feeling is not an accurate measure of performance.

Pierce



 
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #8
Again, according to the research I did there should be no performance loss at any altitude I can drive to because it has two stage compound compression. If it's possible to drive to an altitude where the large, non wastegate turbocharger can't provide enough boost to open the bypass valve, the supercharger will stay loaded and provide the additional boost needed. If that's not enough the engine still has twice the performance the computer is asking for at sea level atmospheric pressure. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be able to make 300 horsepower at the summit of Pike's Peak. This is in keeping with my observations of no smoke from my coach at full power and the bigger coach with single stage turbocharger smoking noticeably and falling behind badly on a high altitude climb. If I were losing power I'd have smoke too. The highest altitude I can drive to is about 14,000 feet and aircraft engines with compound turbo / superchargers see little if any power loss at that altitude. Aircraft with single stage compression usually see a dramatic power loss over about 10,000 feet. This has been widely known since World War II. I'm just applying common sense and decades old engineering knowledge to my observations and it explains exactly what I experienced in the field. To be perfectly honest I was shocked and wasn't expecting the performance I experienced. I definitely didn't have a preconceived notion in my head. Like most people, I never even considered the high altitude performance when I bought my coach. It's just another nice thing I discovered about it as time went by... Anyway, buy a Cummins with a single stage turbocharger if you want. It's nothing to me either way. I already have exactly what I want and I bought it mostly by accident. I was just reporting my surprising observations.
Scott Cook
1991 U300 36' 6V92TA
Old Town Penobscot 16
1984 Honda VF1100C (V65 Magna)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #9
It is my understanding that these engines are not supercharged. The "blower" is utilized only for cylinder filling and is not designed to increase the pressure.
Scott Peatross
2003 34' U270
Stevenson Ranch, CA

Fearless ex-owner of one of the most complex motorhomes ever built, the 1987 Bluebird Wanderlodge PT40 :)

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #10
Frozen Bluebird,

Quite correct in the fact that the big Roots supercharger/blower does charge the cylinders and send the exhaust out the four exhaust valves. It is a positive displacement device compared to centrifugal or other types. As it fills the cylinders, it does so with air compressed above atmospheric pressure. Once the four exhaust valves in each cylinder close, the air is still introduced under pressure into the cylinders until the top of the piston closes off the intake port in the cylinder wall. In other words, during the time between the exhaust valves closing and the piston covering the intake port, the pressure will continue to increase. The amount of compression is determined by the gearing on the Roots blower. The faster it turns, the more the air is compressed. The chamber below the blower has a sensor that goes to the DDEC (computer) and can increase the maximum fuel injected if the pressure is high or cut it back if it is lower at high altitude or the air cleaner is dirty so the engine does not smoke and emissions are reduced. Roots blowers are not very efficient and take a lot of power to turn. With a turbocharger, the blower can be geared to turn slower and use less horsepower and use the almost free compression/boost the turbo supplies to make up for the lower blower volume/pressure. This engine was called "The Fuel Squeezer" and had a "TT" designation at the end (example 6V-92TT) This is tricky as if the blower turns too slowly the 2 cycle engine will have poor low end power until the turbo spins up fast enough to make up for the lower pressure/volume. I drove one of these in a re-power on a fire truck. With 4 widely spaced gears in the Spicer transmission, there was a terrible lag until the RPM and turbo boost came up.

With high blower ratios and large or twin turbos, the pressure/boost will be much higher, high enough to produce over 600 hp if enough additional fuel is injected and can almost double the horsepower the 6V-92TA produces stock. Your 8V-92 Detroit routinely produces 735 hp when installed in boats. There is plenty of room in our U300s to install the 8V-92 as it is the same basic engine, only one cylinder on each side longer. :D

Here is a good quote from Wikipedia that spells it out:

"A two-stroke engine does not have a discrete exhaust and intake stroke and thus is incapable of self-aspiration. Therefore all two-stroke engines must be fitted with a blower to charge the cylinders with air and assist in dispersing exhaust gases, a process referred to as scavenging. In some cases, the engine may also be fitted with a turbocharger, whose output is directed into the blower inlet. A few designs employ a hybrid turbocharger for scavenging and charging the cylinders, which device is mechanically driven at cranking and low speeds to act as a blower."

At the end of the above quote, it describes how EMD (Electro Motive Diesel) is able to use the hybrid turbocharger to get the horsepower together with excellent economy to power all of our Union Pacific locomotives over the Rockies and Sierras here in the west. Same with the big container ships.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

 

Re: 6V92TA high altitude performance

Reply #11
It's a Roots type supercharger, which is particularly effective for creating boost at low engine rpm, which is where diesel engines operate. Pairing a Roots type supercharger with a large, non wastegate turbocharger is the ideal combination. It gives excellent boost at every rpm range and every altitude. This is how World War II high altitude fighter planes were equipped. An ideal example is the Lockheed P38 Lightning, widely regarded as the highest performing high altitude piston engine aircraft of the war. It used a turbocharger in series with a supercharger with excellent results... I realize a Foretravel isn't an aircraft but I can't think of any other common application of a turbo / supercharged engine for comparison.
Scott Cook
1991 U300 36' 6V92TA
Old Town Penobscot 16
1984 Honda VF1100C (V65 Magna)