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Topic: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel (Read 1013 times) previous topic - next topic

Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

We are still looking and investigating our options for this June. I have been reviewing the specifications for the Cummins Diesel ISM 450 HP engine. I find that Cummins does not approve of BioDiesel for engines before 2002.
  Is this a problem since BioDiesel is sold everywhere and hopefully is labeled correctly at the pumps?
    Are there other mechanical/electrical problems you folks have seen with the ISM engine that I should know about?
Thanks for the help and your time!
Glen and Barb Burgess
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #1 –
Glen, not sure where you heard that the bio is a problem for this engine?  I am pretty sure it is ok as a mixture of up to some fairly high percentage.

I will try to refresh my research on this, but did Cummins say it would be a problem?  That may mean I need do no further search.

Mike
Mike
2001 U320 4010 Build 5878 (Gus)
Wrangle Unlimited Toad
Nacogdoches

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #2 –
I have a 1999 320 with the 450 HP M11 Celect + Electronic engine.
I researched Cummins information for that year's engine and the Cummins technical material indicated that Cummins would only allow the use of BioDiesel up to a 5% mixture. I have spoken to many Diesel mechanics including Cummins and all have recommended against using BioDiesel. I check with Fly J engineers and they advised that I should assume their BioDiesel was more than 5%.
I looked again today at Cummins releases and they now say if 2002 or later may use up to 20% BioDiesel
This is what I found on the Cummins site.

Cummins Announces Approval of B20 Biodiesel Blends
LOUISVILLE, Ky.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 21, 2007--Cummins Inc. (NYSE:CMI) today announced the approval of biodiesel B20 blends for use in its 2002 and later emissions-compliant ISX, ISM, ISL, ISC and ISB engines. This includes the recently released 2007 products.

Cummins is able to upgrade its previous position on the use of biodiesel fuel, which limited the use to B5 blends only, up to B20 for three key reasons. First, the American Society of Testing Materials specification ASTM D6751 now includes an important stability specification for B100 biodiesel. Second, the availability of quality fuels from BQ-9000 Certified Marketers and Accredited Producers is growing rapidly; and third, Cummins has completed the necessary testing and evaluations to ensure that customers can reliably operate their equipment with confidence using B20 fuel.

"We have completed exhaustive analysis and test evaluations which enable Cummins to provide the necessary guidance and information to our customers for the proper and successful use of this fuel in our engine," said Edward Lyford-Pike, Chief Engineer - Advanced Alternative Fuel Programs. "This will enable our customers to have a choice that includes renewable fuel."

The popularity and use of biodiesel fuel continues to climb. Recent studies predict that, by 2008, 1.2 billion gallons of B100 biodiesel will be produced in the United States. Cummins will continue its efforts to ensure that future products will be compatible with biodiesel fuels, and will continue to participate in industry efforts aimed at the development of consistent quality throughout the biodiesel industry.

Further information about the use of biodiesel for both on-highway and off-highway Cummins products can be found on the Web at everytime.cummins.com.

Cummins Inc., a global power leader, is a corporation of complementary business units that design, manufacture, distribute and service engines and related technologies, including fuel systems, controls, air handling, filtration, emission solutions and electrical power generation systems. Headquartered in Columbus, Indiana (USA), Cummins serves customers in more than 160 countries through its network of 550 company-owned and independent distributor facilities and more than 5,000 dealer locations. Cummins reported net income of $715 million on sales of $11.4 billion in 2006. Press releases can be found on the Web at cummins.com or everytime.cummins.com.

CONTACT: Cummins Inc.
Louis F. Wenzler, 812-377-4930
E-mail: louis.f.wenzler@cummins.com

SOURCE: Cummins Inc.
Eric & Nancy
1999 36 Ft. U320 WTFE
2016 GMC Terrain

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #3 –
So bottom line, per Dave the pre 2002 or 2003 are ok anyway with the blend and after that the newer engines are ok for at least up to the 20% blend.  Right?  I reading this correctly?
 

Mike
Mike
2001 U320 4010 Build 5878 (Gus)
Wrangle Unlimited Toad
Nacogdoches

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #4 –
As I read what Cummins has said, for engines before 2002 you cannot use more than a 5% blend.
Eric & Nancy
1999 36 Ft. U320 WTFE
2016 GMC Terrain

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #5 –
I assume (hopefully) the blend ratings are listed on the Diesel pumps? If not then how does one find the 5%  blend. I suspose I can check my bank account and just purchase a unit that is 2002 or later. ;D That might mean a few less modifications for the interiors making DW happier.
Glen and Barb Burgess
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #6 –
Quote from: gbburgess –
I assume (hopefully) the blend ratings are listed on the Diesel pumps? If not then how does one find the 5%  blend. I suspose I can check my bank account and just purchase a unit that is 2002 or later. ;D That might mean a few less modifications for the interiors making DW happier.

Two sides to every coin.  I may be incorrect but my understanding of a different possibly related issue is the newer engines with the extremely high pressure fuel systems do not like Mexican diesel fuel. 

If someone knows please post about this.

We are contemplating taking our 97 south of the border and my research says the newer engines are an issue there?
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #7 –
Correct-- Mexico does not have ULSD.  Their diesel is mostly 500 PPM Sulfur, not less then 15 PPM like ULSD.

This is true for the interior.  There may be a few stations along the border that get supply from the U.S. and it may be ULSD (but of little value since close to the U.S.

If your diesel does not require ULSD no problem.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #8 –
Went to cumminsengines.com, searched for biodiesel and came up with this Cummins Engines. Seems my pre-2002 ISM is not approved for more biodiesel than B5, material compatibility problems in the fuel system. Original posters thought seems confirmed.

Looked at the fuel price sites for Loves and for Pilot/Flying J. Very few with B5, many more up to B20. I can't find a site that lists stations with B5 or straight ULSD. Anyone else find one?

There have to be thousands of semis out there with Cummins engines pre-2002. What are they doing? Moving to Mexico?
Mike & Molly Patronick
2001 U320 40'
2011 Forester

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #9 –
Quote from: morninghill –
Went to cumminsengines.com, searched for biodiesel and came up with this Cummins Engines. Seems my pre-2002 ISM is not approved for more biodiesel than B5, material compatibility problems in the fuel system. Original posters thought seems confirmed.

Looked at the fuel price sites for Loves and for Pilot/Flying J. Very few with B5, many more up to B20. I can't find a site that lists stations with B5 or straight ULSD. Anyone else find one?

There have to be thousands of semis out there with Cummins engines pre-2002. What are they doing? Moving to Mexico?

An article I read in Fleetowner says the "entire usable life" of a heavy truck is 10 years, one million miles. That would imply there aren't many pre-2002 semis left out there. And you're probably right, the worn out hulks are headed to Mexico.
Scott Peatross
2003 34' U270
Stevenson Ranch, CA

Fearless ex-owner of one of the most complex motorhomes ever built, the 1987 Bluebird Wanderlodge PT40 :)

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Dave M –
I do love the scuttlebutt here, having just talked with the Cummins Distributor, asking specific questions about the Bio fuels.  Response was simple, the biggest problem they have seen is fuel filters getting stopped up much quicker, even found french fries in one case.
The other issue, it jells at a higher temp. Otherwise suggests I would not have an issue with my 2001, just beware of frequent filter changes. Both B20 & B5 were discussed.
Yes, am aware of the engineering opinion but also being a realist I value the opinion of the guys who work it daily.
So as usual, do what makes you smile, I do ;D
Dave M


From the Cummins site, might this be why they are seeing the fuel filters getting stopped up much quicker?

"Natural rubber, butyl rubber and some types of nitrile rubber (depending on chemical composition, construction and application) may be particularly susceptible to degradation.  Also, copper, bronze, brass, tin, lead and zinc can cause deposit formations."
Scott Peatross
2003 34' U270
Stevenson Ranch, CA

Fearless ex-owner of one of the most complex motorhomes ever built, the 1987 Bluebird Wanderlodge PT40 :)

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #11 –
Dave, is that correct that it jells at a higher temp? I would think it would jell at a lower temp. Just asking.

 Richard B
Richard & Betty Bark & Keiko our Golden Doodle
2003 U320T 3820 PBDS
Build # 6215
MC # 16926
2016 Chevrolet Colorado 4X4 diesel

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #12 –
My experience with BIO was bad, shortly after fill fuel filters clogged and reclogged later, all I could do was continue to replace filters, a real PITA.  I won't knowingly use it again.
Gary B

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #13 –
My only experience with clogged fuel filters came after a few fillups in California's central valley. And the scuttlebutt at the Motorcade rally last Christmas is that California is mandating biodiesel only for that area. With a 180 gallon tank, I'll be buying my diesel elsewhere.
Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #14 –
CA Bob, your 97 will love it here. 2007 was the change over officially to ULS diesel and here in Mexico anything newer would not work too well.
My engine loves it and runs so great I bring a few 5 gall cans back  to mix with the lousy stuff they sell north of mex border.
On the old truck issue here you will be surprised at the # of new rigs driving around. I was. They have definitly upscaled and is nice to see. Still a few "bent" dump trucks haulin' stuff but very few. By the way the air con' buses are nice and way better than Greyhound ones. They travel in style here, and to every town and city like clockwork. Do not put Mexico down on this one as they have us all beat by a long way.
JohnH
Coachless, now use aircraft. 2003 Ford Travelair TC280 class C. Super shape. Just for 1 yr .
1994 Ford E350 ClassC,total renovation inside and out. Now sold.
2000 U295  36' Cummins 350 c/w Banks Stinger, Resonator upgrade,Solar, LED lites.Residential fridge with slide out pantry. Build 5674. Sold
ex 92 GV 022C ored Cummins. Sold
ex 95 GV240 cat 3116. Sold
2017 Mini cooper s & 2016 land Rover LR2 HSE  LUX.
jhaygarth@aol.com    SKP #130098
treat everyone as you would like to be.

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #15 –
I was just at cummins and the shop Forman said that cummins only goes back to 2002 with ok but could see no reason why my 01 would be any different. Same engine and parts.
2025 Wanderbox Outpost 32 on F600 Expedition Motorhome
2015 Born Free Royal Splendor on Ford 550 nonslide version  for sale
Former Coaches  covering. 360,000 miles
1999 34 U270
2000 36 U320
2001 42' double slide U320
2018 Jeep Rubicon

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #16 –
Great news, thanks John!!  Now I do not have to sell and get that recent coach at FOT.

Mike
Mike
2001 U320 4010 Build 5878 (Gus)
Wrangle Unlimited Toad
Nacogdoches
 

Re: Cummin ISM Diesel Engine and biodiesel

Reply #17 –
Quote from: John Haygarth –
CA Bob, your 97 will love it here. 2007 was the change over officially to ULS diesel and here in Mexico anything newer would not work too well.
My engine loves it and runs so great I bring a few 5 gall cans back  to mix with the lousy stuff they sell north of mex border.
On the old truck issue here you will be surprised at the # of new rigs driving around. I was. They have definitly upscaled and is nice to see. Still a few "bent" dump trucks haulin' stuff but very few. By the way the air con' buses are nice and way better than Greyhound ones. They travel in style here, and to every town and city like clockwork. Do not put Mexico down on this one as they have us all beat by a long way.
JohnH

Thanks for the info.

I bought some Lucas fuel additive, one gallon to 400 gallon and it makes the engine idle smoother and quieter as does the the generator. Shop guy said it increases the Cetane rating?

Bob
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4