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Need Stud Advice

Now that I've got your attention....Taking the inside rear dual off, 3 of the studs froze up and I had to break them off (manually, don't have a big enough impact wrench.)  I took them to the tire shop that last installed them (2010.)  There opinion was they were probably over torqued and bring it in and they would fix it and check the other side while they were at it.  Fine so far, but when I re-installed the wheel, 2 more of the bolts sized up before I could get them seated.  My current idea, take it to the neighbors who has a big impact, try to tighten those two down so I can get the outer dual on.  Then, assuming that works, do I decide we really don't know who's to blame, just bite the bullet and have them replace them all?  Any ideas of what might be going on would be appreciated.  How big a deal is it to replace a stud?
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #1 –
Didn't want you to think everyone was ignoring your situation and I don't really have an answer for you but I would personally replace all of them if the thought is that the threads could have been stretched from over torquing. 

It sounds like my FT uses a different type of stud and wheel where there is only one exterior nut on the stud that holds both the inner and outer DRW. 

I'm sure you have already, but have you bought a bunch of brake cleaner and really cleaned off all of the threads on the studs/nuts.  Try one of the wire bristle brushes attached to a grinder or a drill to ensure that the threads are clean. 

Good luck. 
Robert
Build # 5304
1998 34' U270 Cummins 6CTA8.3

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #2 –
You need to pull both wheels off, use a good liquid wrench type stuff (home made as described on the forum will work well), soak for a day or so and then reverse the flip socket and remove any that you can. May need some outside help if they are broken off close to the hub.

For our size, I use a couple of drops of oil or a little anti-seize and torque to about 370 ft lbs. Yours may be stamped on the nut. Never let a tire shop use a big impact as most have no idea what they are doing.

Cut a pipe and use a bathroom scale or weld on a fitting for a torque wrench like Brett did (excellent idea). Use a HD "T" bar and extension and perhaps a jack stand.

Can you imagine a flat tire, especially the front and not being able to get it off?

Quite a few of us have purchased HF's air bottle jack. Makes raising the coach a non-event (unless you don't have it blocked, etc.)

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #3 –
Gayland,
I bought new studs at a truck parts store in Lubbock for $3.00 each.
Look for the L or R on the end of the stud and be sure to tell what wheels you have .
Two Budd (aluminum) wheels or one steel and one aluminum.
Think it's worth the new ones at tire change.
JD.
John Duld
1995 U320C SE 40'

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #4 –
Gayland,

Here is the link to the manufacturers manual.

http://www.alcoa.com/alcoawheels/catalog/pdf/ServiceManual-English.pdf

Torque figures are normally for dry clean threads and dry mounting surfaces.  Torque settings for lubricated threads and dry seats are 100 ft lbs LESS.  Surfaces under nut heads should always be dry.  Excessive torquing will cause stretching of studs, difficulty removing them and possible breakage.

In the shops and on the service trucks/wreckers we always used torque wrenches or torque limited air guns no matter how big the wheels.

If the shop did not follow the manufacturers recommendations they are at fault.

Keith
Keith, Joyce & Smokey the Australian Cattle Dog
1995 U320 SE Extreme 40' WTBI Build # 4780, with a Honda CR-V hopefully still following behind.
Motorcade # 17030
FMCA # F422159

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #5 –
The problem is I don't know if they did it properly or not.  It's a large shop and would be hard to believe that they wouldn't have.  I would have more easily believed that they got cross threaded and jammed on, but then that doesn't speak highly of them either, and I certainly didn't cross thread the two that froze up on me putting it back together.
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #6 –
Try a good coat of never seize and try to loosen them, if you can get them to turn a couple of turns they will usually come on off. The put never seize on all of them tighten them up so you can get to the shop to have them all replaced
Bruce, Linda, and Macy
Zoey RIP 1/20/19
1999 U295 40' build #5400
2017 silver Jeep Wrangler, 1260 watts of solar on top
Moving around the country

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #7 –
Trouble getting them off? I would use "blast off", like liquid wrench but better. soak and give it a try. If you still get no joy I would use a mapp gas torch to heat the nut and try again. When you reassemble, if you cant turn them on by hand you will never get a good result by forcing them on with an impact gun. A course wire brush and some anti seize have never let me down.
Andy 1989 U300 40'

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #8 –
Forgot to mention... Use heat to punch out damaged studs. Heat the hub not the stud. When you press In the new ones put them in the freezer for a half an hour and when you go to press them in heat the hub. They will almost go in with a little tap.
Andy 1989 U300 40'

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #9 –
I think that most shops that handle our size tires also deal with trucks, and almost always have their air guns set way too high, and almost never us a torque wrench. This is standard fare. And nuts also bind up from dirt and grime on dry studs.

I have seen several shops drive nuts on tight, then take out a torque wrench and when they hear the immediate click, they think or pretend to think the nut is torqued correctly, when they proved nothing. The right way is to under torque the nut and finish the last part of the turn with the torque wrench.

After breaking wheel studs, we now put anti seize on threads without tires, then with a rag wipe off excess, so just a little remains. For us this keeps the corrosion at bay and facilitates removal to clean slide pins, etc. Exact torque is now hard to set with the anti-seize..

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #10 –
I'm sure you know about the "budd" type wheel studs/centering and the hub style centering wheels.
You probable have the Budd type of centered wheels. Otherwise your wheels , inner and outer,would come off with just removal of the lug nuts.

When I had tires installed I went to a Commercial Tire shop. I never thought there would be a problem with a simple tire purchase. WAS I WRONG!
A employee did not know that my left side lug nuts were left handed threads. He drove the lug nuts so tight into the wheels with the 1" air impact that he stripped the nuts corners( he thought he was removing the nuts, instead he was tightening them.). The shop had to cut the  Alcoa wheels off with a torch ( I have inner and outer Alcoa wheels). When fixed ( 3 broken studs) I roared out of there to another shop to have the damage fixed. $700 to have the broken studs replaced.
That shop had a hard time locating the right stud.

Take John Duld's advice, and studs ( I think John has extras for sale), it will save you and another shops time ( your money) looking for the proper stud.
1995 U320C SE 40'
Jeep 4x4 Commander - Limited - Hemi
"The Pack"  Yogi and Diesel our Airedales -  Charlie our Boxer/Akita mix. Gone but NEVER forgotten Jake our yellow Lab.
NRA Law Enforcement Firearms instructor - Handgun/shotgun
Regional Firearms instructor for national Armored Transp. Co.

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #11 –
Correct, budd type centered wheels.  It's the inner nuts that are giving the trouble.  I am aware of the left/right hand.  My experience with the two I broke off, they came off part way easy, then froze up.  They aren't corroded or dirty, 10,000 miles since the tire's were put on, and always stored inside.  What was the $700 for, didn't the shop take care of the damage?  I'm not planning on replacing them myself, but have a question about the removal, heating the hub, what does that do to the bearings seal/lubricant?
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Gayland Baasch –
The problem is I don't know if they did it properly or not.  It's a large shop and would be hard to believe that they wouldn't have.  I would have more easily believed that they got cross threaded and jammed on, but then that doesn't speak highly of them either, and I certainly didn't cross thread the two that froze up on me putting it back together.
Used to see broken studs a lot at the auto club I worked for. Usually what happens is a piece of thread breaks off, jams the lugnut & you have to break it at that point. Or cut it or torch it... Can't save it. Can be caused by overtorquing, dry threads & no load impact wrench speeds can gall threads, a burr on a thread breaks off, worn out threads from frequent use cycles...
Smaller studs you can pound in with a hammer. I've seen techs use washers & grease & a nut to pull the studs in. Really big ones get a trip to the press. You have to get to the back of the stud.  Inside the brake drum. Have you ever pulled a rear axle & brake drum on a coach or dually pickup? Single wheel one ton? Or do you have rear disc brakes?
Fred Lewers
1984 FTX ORED
Build #2423
1991 Ford Taurus SHO
17 1/2  trillion dollars....  TANSTAAFL....  The party's winding down folks!

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #13 –
Yes, disk brakes.  The studs are threaded on the backside with a nut.  I would assume (there's that word) that you use the nut to pull the splines into the rotor.  Conversely, to remove the stud it will have to come out the front.  I would imagine there's a tool that will reach around behind and press it out.  I'd called FT parts and got a part # 20x1874 for the right hand side stud and 3280T7872 for the inner wheel stud nut.  It's important to get the correct length.  Steel wheels are thinner than aluminum.  Get them too long and the stud nut will bottom out before the inner wheel is tight.  FT was completely out of line on the pricing, but volunteered the part # so I could go elsewhere ($57 vs $28.)  My shop (OK tire in Fargo) had to order them so awaiting there call.  Will see how that goes.
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #14 –
You can make a tool from two threaded rods & hex coupling nut that pushes the stud out, by pressing the back of the stud against the rotor, after placing a protective piece of metal on rotor from gouging it. Turn the coupling nut to expand the threaded rods.

There may not be a professional tool to do the job, so it may have to be home grown.

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #15 –
Interesting idea Barry.  My first attempt was a C clamp, which in theory should have about the same mechanical advantage.  Wouldn't budge it.  I'll mulling over welding a nut on the rod of the c clamp so I can put an impact on it.  Wonder if they'll warranty the C clamp when I'm done :))
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #16 –
If there are any threads on the broken stud, would a type of wheel puller be able to pull the stud against the flange?

A long time ago, we saw Foretravel use a home made tool similar to my above threaded rod and coupling nut remove two broken studs from our coach.  Some Liquid Wrench may help.

There is not much room between the back of the stud and brake rotor, so the tool has to be short.

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #17 –
For the most part, no, the studs are too short.  While putting it back together so I could take it to Fargo (60 miles) two more froze up and then when removing, 2 more, so I'm down to just 2 good ones.  I have access to a portapower and if that won't work, I'll pull the hub off and use a press.
1996 U270
Build #4846
 

Re: Need Stud Advice

Reply #18 –
The rest of the story....just to put this to bed.  The Portapower wouldn't budge them so pulled the hub off and a couple whacks with a big hammer did the job.  Installed the new ones using a impact wrench to pull them in.  I couldn't in good conscious blame it all on the tire shop, who knows what it's been through before, so worked out a deal, they supplied parts at cost and will check the other side when I get it to them.
1996 U270
Build #4846